Falcon's Worst Matchups - Strategizing Time *Updated 4/14/08, Zelda, Kirby, Sonic*

[Runeblade279]

It's pretty well established by now that Falcon has troubles with small, disjointed, quick, characters with good priority, along with a few other characters such as ZSS and the spaces.

This is the thread for teh ultimates discussion of troublesome matchups that Falcon has.

Update record:

4/14/08 - Compilation update! New Zelda and Kirby section, added Olimar info, brief Sonic section.

3/24/08 - Clarified some Marth info so it's more helpful.

3/22/08 - Compiled all information in the thread so far. Got Pit, MK, Olimar, Wolf, Marth, Pikachu, and ZSS info.

Currently compiled information on matchups:

Pit:

Troubles - Arrow Spam, side+B, Aerials priority beats yours

Solutions - The arrow spam can be gotten around via shielding, spot dodging, or jumping and air dodging. Rolling is not recommended. His ground attacks aren't too amazing, use tilts to outrange him (contributed by Keykid19), and spot dodge side+B, it's not so hard to predict. Dsmash when he rolls or to catch after side+Bs is a good option. His smashes are laggy, especially his fsmash, so use that to your advantage. In the air, do not approach from above, and avoid his uair, try and go from below with your own uairs. If he tries to SH his nair or go at you from the air, use utilt, it has a great hitbox range and decent knockback, I've KOed with it before.

Olimar:

Troubles - Projectile pikmin, shield grab, fsmash and usmash, shield grab, uair, shield grab, did i mention the shield grab?

Solutions - Do. Not. Go. From. Above. Ever. Try and spot dodge his fsmash/pikmin/grab, cause they look similar, and if you play it smart you can avoid all of them with this one move. Don't get too close and stay there, his usmash is really really quick. Go for grabs and uairs, try and stay aggressive else you'll get pikmin spammed, but do not hit his shield if at all possible. (hard I know) Once you get him off, EDGEHOG like a mofo, cause it works. Here's a quote for Keykid19, edgehogging details:

When edgehogging watch out for his Fair because he'll do it and then immediately go into UpB so he'll get the edge and you will die if you have very much damage at all due to the level spike. If you actually survive you'll probably die anyway because he'll edgehog you. lol If you have a hanging Olimar (on the edge but down a ways due to many Pikmin in the chain) just get as close as you can to the edge and do Nair because you have a pretty good chance of hitting him if he pulls up to the edge which he'll probably do once you're below it and coming at him hanging there. If you're facing the right way Bair is probably a better option because it lasts so long and is more powerful anyways. This situation doesn't arise that much but when it does it's good to have a tactic to combat it.

The master of anti-Olimar, Keykid19 returns with more long-winded, yet ultimately useful info!

Dsmash is very easily Kneed if you jump to dodge it. I find myself jumping a lot against offensive Olimars even though he has the advantage when I'm above him because his Fsmash, Dsmash, grab, and Side B (pretty much all of his ranged forward attacks) leave him wide open for punishment from above. Honestly even with his small frame I'm able to sweetspot him fairly regularly if I jump over those moves. You have to be careful when you jump though because his Usmash, Utilt, and sometimes his UpB will hurt you if you leave yourself open to them. UpB is not really much of an issue because it's hardly ever used on the ground as an attack but if the player does like to do that then just jump -> air dodge -> Nair or pass behind him and Bair. Fair out of air dodge is hard to get right so don't try it.

Olimar, while powerful on the ground and when below you in the air, is pretty much a sitting duck when he's in the air above you. Uair kills him so make sure to use that. BUair (backwards Uair) is also a pretty useful technique against him so use that as well. All of his aerials have terrible reach so try to be as aggressive as possible when you've got him off the ground. If you're above him do the exact opposite and be as defensive as possible because his Uair is a beast against you just like yours is against him. Airdodge and evasively DI your way to the ground.

Once on the ground your best moves are Running A, Falcon Kick, Raptor Boost, and grab. Raptor Boost is your best friend against aggressive Olimars because it will kill thrown Pikmin (SideB) unless it has been decayed through spamming (which may be the case against Olimar since the move is so essential to your ground game against him but most of the time I find that it kills thrown Pikmin anyways). Falcon Kick has the same great qualities but unfortunately you slow down when kicking thrown Pikmin so chances are that you will end up stopping right in Olimar's Fsmash or Dsmash range (this is bad). Raptor Boost on the other hand stops you right in place when you hit the Pikmin so you never get in range of any Olimar Smashes. Once you're in his Smash range start your aerial attack because if you stay on the ground you will be demolished. The Knee is pretty useful because it last so long so you can SH-Knee and then FF with the gimp. Usually the gimp is bad but I find it useful here because if you trip Olimar you have better options. Otherwise just play with your aerials and approaches and don't let him sense a pattern. It's ok to switch things up and use a tilt here and there as well just to keep him guessing.

The grab is probably your best tool though. Work Olimar over to an edge and then make grabbing him your number one priority. Once you have him throw him off the edge and then SH-ANYTHING to hit him. Seriously any move will work. The best situation you can have is to grab him with your back to the edge, then Bthrow into Bair -> DJ -> Bair -> Falcon Dive. If he doesn't air dodge it then you've just given yourself a great chance of killing him due to his gimp recovery. He'll be too low to knock you away from the edge with any aerials and after then second Bair you'll be able to beat him to the edge. SCORE! 1 KO for you. Now of course this won't work against all players or 100% of the time but it is a pretty solid tactic which will result in an easy KO for you if you pull it off. It seriously can work when he's around 40% so even if he only has 40% and you have 124% you just KOed him first and have the upper hand. Beating Olimar is all about gimping him when he's off the edge, and with Falcon it's thankfully not that hard to do. If Olimar had a non-tether recovery there would be almost no hope of beating him as Falcon but thanks to his tether combined with Falcon's above average edgeguarding skills you have a decent shot. You may still lose even with all of these tactics but at least they give you a shot (well they give me a shot at least).

Meta Knight:

Troubles - Awesome priority, quick attacks, chains really well, good recovery

Solutions - Three of his moves equals one of yours power-wise. Stay on your toes with your dodges, use grabs to lead into uairs, and avoid his fair, it's fast. If he glides, punish with a knee for great justice, or if that's too risky, uair away. Try and space to keep out of mach tornado. Here's a few priority discoveries by Keykid19:

Update on Metaknight:

Messing around in Training Mode again and I'd say that Falcon Kick is THE move to use against Meta. It breaks through his held A, his Side B drill (which really sucks by the way but this helps a lot), and his B tornado. Utilt and Dtilt also are options against the held A but Falcon Punch doesn't consistently break through it unless you are more than barely out of his A range. So now here's how countering his most annoying moves stands:

B Tornado:

Raptor Boost (ground or aerial)
Falcon Kick

Side B Drill:

Falcon Kick (nothing else works that I've seen at least so this is crucial)

A Spam:

Utilt
Dtilt
Falcon Kick

Useful stuff man, great to know, thanks.

Wolf:

Troubles - Laser spam, hard to approach, quick and powerful, reflector counters alot of your moves and stuns, laser spam

Solutions - Get around the laser spam the same way you deal with Pit's only be more defensive. His attacks are far more deadly, so air dodge > shield > grab to get to him is a good approach, but mix it up, don't be predictable. Once you play him enough, his attacks are very predictable themselves, they all have ending lag, and make him move around usually. Wolf gets owned by spot dodges, his ending lag is his downfall, punish him with tilts and go utilt or a smash attack for the kill. His aerial moves for the most part are also predictable, but his dair spikes and has beginning lag, unlike alot of his other moves, so watch for it, he might surprise you.

Marth:

Troubles - Range, counter, ground moves overall are more combo-y

Solutions - His range is worse from melee. Period. It's shorter and not as powerful, BUT it's still better than yours and still kills. His fair has a bit more lag to it, so if you dodge it, you can hit him before he's done. His nair is still annoying, but not quite as deadly. His uair is kind of easy to see coming, but it's quick. His dair is still laggy, and no more comboing into it, but watch out anyway. Your uair wins here, so use your grabs to put him up there, his ground game is stronger now. If he attempts to counter, either wait and then punish, or throw a falcon dive out there for mindgames, it really messes them up. Good general strategy here is just space and dodge so you don't get hit by his good moves, then punish him.

Pikachu:

Troubles - Large hitboxes, good priority, small

Solutions - (All info following contributed by Keykid19) If they spam down B, and you're not online, pause the game and laugh for a minute, then continue with spacing correctly and punishing the horrendous ending lag on that move. You can like.. fsmash. Awesome. But only sucky pikas spam down B all the time. Watch out for Dsmash, don't spot dodge it, it hits for too long. Fsmash as well, it can fake you with it's tiny beginning lag, but once you get used to it it's easy to dodge and punish. Spacing owns pikachu, dashing As, falcon kick, stutter step Fsmash, shield grab > uair are all great moves when properly spaced against pikachu. Don't forget to bring your rat poison to coat your knee with. =D

Zero Suit Samus:

Troubles - Range on whip moves, priority, quick, aerials excluding dair ****

Solutions - All her range moves are easy to see coming, spot dodge them. Side+B, Fsmash are the two most dangerous. Watch her Usmash, don't try dair whilst falling down, but SH lagless dair is a valid approach against Zamus, long as you don't spam it. Do -not- get hit by her Dsmash, the starting animation is her pointing the gun at the ground with sparkles. It paralyzes for like.. 20 god **** minutes, she can fsmash or side+B you out of it, it hurts. Don't get hit by it. When taking her in the air, attempt to stay below her, it isn't too hard since she falls like a piece of paper, soooo slow. If she starts to dair, air dodge and then punish the ending lag when she lands. Her bair and fair are great KO moves, the bair comes out really quick, and the fair does two kicks, just make sure to avoid getting hit by the second. The first of them chains in well, so just avoid it in general. Her model is fairly easy to knee though, so take advantage of that when she's recovering, but don't get spiked by her Up-B, heh. Her uair will beat you alot of the time, so avoid it if at all possible. Air dodging is great here, cause once you get below her, she can't really punish that well.

Zelda:

Troubles - Side + B campage, High Priority, LONG LASTING, smashes, bloody annoying jab/tilts, shield knockback is great

Solutions - There has been much conflict over what Falcon can/cannot, should/should not do to fight against Zelda. General stuff I've seen:

- Falcon Kick for spacing, dodge side+B
- Her dair sucks! Uair away!
- Side+B whiffed is laggy, grab or hit her after dodging if you didn't falcon kick
- Bait and puniiish, as usual
- In case of guarding against smashes, spot dodging is nigh useless, rolling is a good option, and if you shield, it's -always- longer than you think, don't be fooled.
- Her jab and tilts are good, but you outrange them with yours! =D

Sonic:

Troubles - Faster than you... Faster than you?

Solutions - Predictable and pretty ****ty priority, which is saying something cause yours sucks. Just watch out for his uair, it's got a good hitbox and it's mean to juggle with since he's so fast. Sonic isn't too much trouble if you just know his moves and react.

Kirby:

Troubles - Short hitbox, good edgeguard, hard to pursue, can stop juggling easily

Solutions - Take advantage of his short range on the ground, and use what has become a signature Falcon strategy for me -- knock them off with something, just about anything, and then chase them into oblivion with whatever aerial move will hit. Kirby's light, and this strategy is especially effective against lighter characters. Off-the-edge aerial pressure is one of Falcon's greatest assets imo. But if you're just chasing off a throw, be wary, he can use final cutter to end your juggle. If you dodge it, you may be able to get a hit in on his ending lag though. For his edgeguard of punches, use the roll option and you should be able to get up. (contributed by Mann)

Note that if you're having trouble with another character heretofore unmentioned don't be afraid to start discussion on that too, don't feel like a noob for not being good against a certain character.

Discuss away!

 

[domiNate]

Go at them straight from above, but don't attack. Air dodge then when their u-smashing grab them. Can't do this everytime though.

 

[KeyKid19]

Personally I have trouble with these opponents the most:

OLIMAR (total destruction)
Zero Suit Samus (so much priority and reach)
Metaknight (priority and move speed)
Link (sword reach and projectiles)
Fox (speed)
Wolf (speed/power)
Falco (speed/power)

Other moderately tough but definitely more easily beatable:

Ike (good users can use Ike's reach very well against Falcon and don't use laggy moves)
Marth (speed/reach)
Toon Link (speed/reach)

Essentially all sword users are hard for me just because they have such reach. I still can't come to grips with that fact that I got ***** by this one Link because Link is just.... Link you know? It just shouldn't be possible. lol But man he was always throwing bombs and boomerangs and shooting arrows so it was really tough. Toon Link can do this as well but he's less powerful and more light so he's much more killable. Right now I'm off to dinner but tonight I'll tell you what some of my strategies have been against Pit and Metaknight (two of my close Smash friends main them so I've learned some tricks).

Just so you know Raptor Boost cancels Metaknight's B move! I really liked when I discovered that. But yeah I'll tell you more when I get back.

Good thread idea by the way.

 

[Pyr0]

Squirtle is a *****!

 

[domiNate]

Yeah I have trouble against anyone who spams projectiles, except zamus. Basically it all comes down to good mind games and edgeguarding.

 

[Runeblade279]

Alright let's see...

Thanks to Keykid for raptor boost clanking mach tornado, that's such awesome info.

As for your sword problem, the biggest thing to remember is that Ike is easy a freakin hell to dodge and punish, his only real fast move that you may not see coming is AAA, so just don't get right next to him and try to outjab him.

As for the quicker sword users.. Marth, TL and Link.. Link's projectiles are easy to avoid, same with TL, only problem is you dodge them and then they hit you. Shield grab. Works great. I know Link himself won't be able to match you in the air, TL might pose some problems, and with correct spacing and quick speed, Marth gets ***** by your uair. Throw out a Falcon Dive for mindgamez. =P

The spacies are hard, I find Falco to be the toughest, but the best move against spacies (in my experience) is spot dodge > punish, and uair like nothing. Wolf is easiest imo, his movement is predictable, Fox being only slightly harder. But Falco... grawgh.

The projectile spam strategy I gave for Pit works just as good against almost any other character, excepting olimar. Honestly, I just worry more about keeping out of olimar's combos than his pikmin projectiles.. Worst falcon matchup imo.

If we get more discussion going, I'll edit the first post to show all the characters stated and what all strategies have been come up with.

 

[KeyKid19]

Yeah Ike's AAA is ridiculous. The other problem I run into when playing him is that I'll do a roll-through, get behind him, and then get hit by his stupid Usmash which reaches around his entire body for some ridiculous reason and is way too powerful when striking opponents behind him. I can understand it being a beast against people who are actually in front of him, but to have it be just as strong against people standing BEHIND him seems cheap to me. He would be incredibly easier to fight if not for that move.

Personally I think that a projectile-focused Link user is actually hard to dodge against. He pulls a bomb, throws the boomerang then immediately throws the bomb and charges towards you while the boomerang is already on its way back. All of that at once is tough for me at least. Of course I've only played the one guy who uses this tactic in Wi-Fi matches so every projectile is harder to dodge as Falcon as a result. Offline I'm sure it would be easier but still it's a pretty good tactic.

Toon Link bothers me more with his stupid Utilt combo with which he can automatically get at least 5 hits on you I think if you are below 10% at the start. He doesn't get me in it often but when he does I take at least 40% damage in like 3 seconds. I haven't had success DI-ing or airdodging out of it so it's quite a pain. Besides that the only other real problem with Toon Link is his reach and Dair. If you aren't prepared for the Dair he will **** you if you try to juggle him. Also if you stand on the ground and wait for him to land you get blasted out of reach by the stupid gust of wind that erupts when he hits the ground. This combined with its speed makes it pretty hard to punish but I have had some success with SH-Fair and SH-Bair at times. Lately I've also been able to time it just right so that when I hit Toon Link up and chase for the juggle, I hit Uair before he even does anything and if he does the usual Dair Falcon's Uair will hit him on his side and will knock him sideways (without any damage to Falcon). This tactic really just depends on the specific player you're facing though, but by and large most TL users will fall into the Uair trap.

Falcon Dive is a great tactic like you said against Marth users because there is a significant number of Marth users who will simply use counter when chased for a juggle. Falcon Dive demolishes that tactic and sends them up again for another go-round. Marth's SH-Fair seems problematic though because if you shield it Marth doesn't get that much lag so you have to be really quick or you'll just get hit by a new attack. Grab would work I guess but you can get your shield worn down pretty quick by aggressive SH-Fairs.

The Spacies can all be fought essentially the same way like you said but I don't really have any experience against them because no one I know mains them so I get ***** by good players online (especially since it's online like I mentioned before).

Pit is pretty easy I think other than dealing with projectile spamming, but once you get close they tend to stop so the key is to keep close enough that they don't do it but not close enough that they can hit you. He has the worst reach out of all the sword-(ish) users and the only move that really has good reach is his SideB (I think.... whatever the YA YA YA YA!!! move is where he spins the thing forever). People who spam that move though can be punished good spacing though because if you get just out of its reach you can Falcon Punch them before they can get out of it usually. Pit is also pretty light so don't worry about edgeguarding his ridiculous recovery unless you have a good opportunity to. His lag when gliding in to a landing is kind of bad and since Falcon can run as fast as he glides you should be able to catch up and get a Fsmash in which he's in his cooldown lag. General ground strategy against him for me at least is just using tilts. They reach farther than most of his attacks so you can have your way with him. Bait and punish works here just like against everyone else. Raptor Boost is useable on the ground as well because Pit's priority is not that great and that combined with his lack of reach usually results in a successful Raptor Boost. In the air just ride the Uair and Bair trains.

After playing Olimar and learning what his moves are I've identified what makes him so problematic so I'll make a summary of what I discovered.

Olimar's SideB, Fsmash, and Grab all look the same but do VERY different things so it's hard to plan against. Luckily the SideB has its special noise so you can react to that but the grab and Fsmash are impossible to distinguish between at full game speed. One can be punished by shielding into Ftilt, the other punishes shielding. Also his throws are WAY overpowered for how easily he can grab people. I guess spotdodging is the answer against those two moves but they are still hard as crap to go up against. His moves are also WAY overprioritized, especially his aerials. You're only hope is to capitalize on every edgehogging opportunity you get because that's his only downfall. You'll probably only get him off the stage a few times at best, so it's critical to make sure he doesn't make it back when those precious times arise. When edgehogging watch out for his Fair because he'll do it and then immediately go into UpB so he'll get the edge and you will die if you have very much damage at all due to the level spike. If you actually survive you'll probably die anyway because he'll edgehog you. lol If you have a hanging Olimar (on the edge but down a ways due to many Pikmin in the chain) just get as close as you can to the edge and do Nair because you have a pretty good chance of hitting him if he pulls up to the edge which he'll probably do once you're below it and coming at him hanging there. If you're facing the right way Bair is probably a better option because it lasts so long and is more powerful anyways. This situation doesn't arise that much but when it does it's good to have a tactic to combat it. So yeah I don't really have that many Olimar tactics but I at least know what makes him so tough so I guess that's a start. If ever there was a time when we needed everyone to chip in every piece of into they have about fighting a certain character, this is it.

Zero Suit Samus is tough because of her reach, priority, and speed. Also her stunning moves are really bad because her Fsmash is so ridiculously ranged. She is hard to bait and punish because she has quick moves with great reach that don't have that much lag, so getting even remotely close is risky, and approaching is brutal. Limited recovery is her downfall like Olimar although hers is slightly better due to the DownB option. Usmash has an enormous hitbox, does a lot of damage, and has good knockback at medium to high percents. Overall she is quick and deceptively powerful, almost like Metaknight on steroids with a much worse recovery. Any ideas on her? Oh and I almost forgot any good player with her will start the match by chucking the broker suit parts which are ridiculously powerful and easily spammed. They can be caught or picked up by you of course but it's a tough task. Shielding does not help because they will bounce off and back towards her so she can grab them again and continue until she breaks though. I guess spot dodging is the best option here? Haven't tried it but it seems the most logical option.

More to come tomorrow because I'm going to bed now..... hope this helped you guys.

 

[Arashi]

Don't you people have trouble with Pikachu?

 

[IWuvGeno]

Personally, I don't play against Pikachu much. In fact, I've only ever played against a couple casuals.


Right now I'm still having trouble with turtles. Finals are over though, and I'm ready to jump in.

Pit [40/60] gives me a little trouble because he sets me up and I feel I can do little about it. I think it's important to say that it's overall a close match. But, it seems that the arrows make me dodge or hop right inside his range. The game is quite fair, until he gets some distance on me. I think I need to learn to space myself more, and play less aggressively. The close game is much more manageable, and dSmash worked wonders against the last Pit matchup I had. Any time the opponent goes into defensive mode, I find this move helpful. Side B doesn't hurt either.


Wolf [20/80], however, ***** me. This is my 20/80 matchup. In a 3 stock match I get 2 stocked half the time. His lasers are ridiculous and his set ups are exactly the same as Pit's. He'll make me dodge or hop right within his range, and then I have no tools against him. Raptor Boost and Falcon Kick are hopeless against his lasers, as well as against his shine. A good wolf player can simply activate his reflector the second he sees the Raptor Boost flames (maybe he got lucky and the timing is more tricky). My opinion is that this match-up is simply a bad one. Wolf's AAA combo is far superior to any tilts Falcon has, and his Illusion seems to be on par or better than Falcon Kick for priority.


Marth [40/60] is actually not such a bad matchup. His tipper isn't as good as it used to be, which is key in this battle. You can get a lot closer than you could in Melee, meaning spacing isn't so tricky. Also, a well placed UAir can juggle him in the air nicely due to his slow fall speed. His SH Fair actually has a decent amount of delay, meaning that hugging him is a must. Anticipating when he'll jump seems to do the trick here, and Nair will definitely come out quicker than his Fair. DD + Side B is, of course, very applicable in this battle for baiting an attack.


MetaKnight [30/70?ish] has always been tough for me. But, wow, if Raptor Boost clanks with his tornado, that is good news indeed. It is hard to keep proper spacing on this guy, because some of his jabs come out quick, and reach much farther than his normal A's. Obviously priority is a major problem in this battle. I think if we can learn a few more tricks like that Raptor Boost clank, the gap will begin to close. The only weakness I've found, is that a hit-for-hit exchange can be a big surprise for an overzealous MK, and a knee has more KO potential than anything he can throw at you... we just need to find out which moves this works on. It might be me getting lucky.

Olimar [30/70ish]was a character I didn't play against at all today, so I didn't get to practice any sort of counter strategies. I have had horrible trouble with this character in the past though.


Any character that is 30/70 or worse is in dire need of some studying. Videos, of course, would help a lot - as I cannot always find good players to practice against. I'll try to work something out so I can save replays... the 3 minute thing is perplexing.



PS: I started this account as a joke... and now I'm thinking about changing my name due to it's complete irrelevance to Falcon's amazing beastliness. So, don't be surprised if my name disappears off these forums.

 

[Lib3r4t3]

I'd say Pokemon Trainer is a real hindrance against Captain Falcon, or squirtle in the very least.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It seems that Marth is still one of Captain Falcon's worst matchups. With a long reach, Marth can easily keep Falcon off his feet.

 

[KeyKid19]

Update: I did some more specific tests with the Raptor Boost vs. Metaknight's tornado and I found that Raptor Boost clanks it if you are both on the ground but if you are in the air above Meta you can actually get the hit on him and you don't take any damage. I couldn't do THAT much intensive testing because I was trying to control both characters at once since no one else was home to help and the computers don't use the move that much. So yeah Raptor Boost seems like at WORST a block of the move and if you are both in the air you'll likely get the hit in too. The only possible problem you might run into with a good Meta is that he'll use it when pretty close to you and charge with it so you won't have time to get the Raptor Boost off. The Key is just to space properly and know your opponent's tendencies.

Off to do chores for a while but I'll be back later on. If anyone has the ability to do a more thorough Raptor Boost vs. Tornado test, please do so. Two things I'd like to know are what happens when Falcon uses the ground Raptor Boost against an aerial tornado and also what happens when Falcon is below Metaknight when both are in the air. Once we figure out the behaviors during those two instances we'll know exactly what to do against the Tornado.

 

[Big Burn]

lol falcon sucks now...every character is a bad matchup for him practically

 

[Runeblade279]

lol falcon sucks now...every character is a bad matchup for him practically

Dedede. DK. Bowser. Samus.

Falcon owns them.

And others (Snake, Ike, Mario, Peach, Game and Watch, ROB, etc) are just 50/50 matchups really.

Alright, let's go over what we've got so far:

Pit: Yeah, he's definitely not as hard as Olimar, once you learn his moves, he's alot easier. Only problem is, I can't stand playing as Pit, it's so blah, so my research is based solely on opponents haha. His side+B is actually terribad in my opinion, spot dodge > fsmash owns it every time, it's so easy to see coming. It's his dsmash, usmash, ftilt, and uair that get me. And the arrow spam. Grawr.

Olimar: Keykid made a good observation, and yes, I've found that spot dodging > grab or ftilt is the best option. Also, as stated earlier, watch the usmashes and uairs, they're beastly. His usmash especially, it comes out super quick and it kills. Try not to be right next to him if you're not knocking him away or grabbing, you'll get hit.

Marth: Not all that terrible anymore, as IWuvGeno said, his aerials got nerfed, you can beat him in both speed -and- power now, just stay away from dairing him unless it's a lag free SH dair as approach, and even then its risky, his uair is almost as good as yours. But your other aerials will own him.

Meta Knight: I've noticed as well that while he has great priority, comboability, he has little to no KO moves that aren't bloody easy to see coming (up+b is probably his best, quick and powerful, but if you miss, you're screwed) and one move of yours equals three of his. Just stay on your toes with your dodges and space, he's not as difficult.

Wolf: Yes, he's a pain. His blaster is most annoying. Best thing to do is jump and air dodge > shield grab in order to fake him into a usmash or something, once you get next to him and get the grab, he's screwed, you can take him in the air if you're smart any day. Watch his dair, it's laggy, but it's got good priority and spikes well. Wolf dies to spot dodging, cause the only non-laggy move he has is his basic and his ftilt, anything else you can dodge > punish with impunity. I find Falco harder to be honest, he's less laggy than wolf.

Zero Suit Samus: Her kill moves are pretty predictable, just stay away from her dsmash, it stuns into an fsmash, as long as you don't get hit by that or the stun gun, you should be okay, cause her side-B and fsmash are easy to dodge otherwise. In the air, try and stay below, if you see her starting the dair, air dodge and then punsih with a bair or a knee. Her uair is good, it'll beat you, her fair is awesome, and her bair is a quick KO move. Just watch closely and use your grabs with impunity. Her tilts kinda suck, so going at her from the ground isn't a bad idea, just watch for the whip.

Keep the discussion going!

I would add stuff about pikachu, but like others I haven't played a good human pikachu haha.

 

[KeyKid19]

I will try out those things you mentioned against ZSS and Wolf. Good info!

The only Pikachus I ever play against just spam DownB the entire time so that's not really much of a sample. lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

To be honest, I think a good Lucario can be one of the most devastating matchups against Falcon's favor. I think he's THE counter to Falcon. Here is what Lucario has going for him.

1. Ridiculous power! Falcon doesn't have too many outstanding kill moves, so this match can easily last a long time if you don't anticipate him very carefully, and the longer a match lasts for Lucario, the more likely he will win due to the factor of Aura. Find a way to kill him at a low % or this match will be HARD.
2. Disjointed range. He's not a sword user, but his range is quite good due to Aura extending past his limbs.
3. He has a projectile. Yeah, here's an obvious problem in approaching him.
4. You're an easy target for his Down-B. A lot of Falcon's attacks have noticable startup or have him yelling out something before he attacks. He will easily have a lot of opportunities to counterattack here, and unlike the counters of Marth and Ike, which only really kill if you hit them with a very strong attack when you are significantly damaged, this one kills just on the premise if you are significantly damaged and it increases in strength when Lucario is damaged.

 

[talkingbeatles]

Don't you people have trouble with Pikachu?

**** yeah!
I can't believe people haven't been *****ing about this Pokemon. He's brutal. I don't know how to approach him. I think Falcon's got a better arial game overall, but that down smash of Pika's is stupid. It pulls you in from everywhere and has dumb priority.

I had trouble with squirtle for a while, but then I realized down tilts and falcon kicks work pretty well against him.

 

[Runeblade279]

To be honest, I think a good Lucario can be one of the most devastating matchups against Falcon's favor. I think he's THE counter to Falcon. Here is what Lucario has going for him.

1. Ridiculous power! Falcon doesn't have too many outstanding kill moves, so this match can easily last a long time if you don't anticipate him very carefully, and the longer a match lasts for Lucario, the more likely he will win due to the factor of Aura. Find a way to kill him at a low % or this match will be HARD.
2. Disjointed range. He's not a sword user, but his range is quite good due to Aura extending past his limbs.
3. He has a projectile. Yeah, here's an obvious problem in approaching him.
4. You're an easy target for his Down-B. A lot of Falcon's attacks have noticable startup or have him yelling out something before he attacks. He will easily have a lot of opportunities to counterattack here, and unlike the counters of Marth and Ike, which only really kill if you hit them with a very strong attack when you are significantly damaged, this one kills just on the premise if you are significantly damaged and it increases in strength when Lucario is damaged.

Lucario is not that powerful. His fairs combo, his utilt is awesome, and his counter and aura sphere can kill at high percentages, along with his bair, dsmash, and fsmash.

But he's predictable. I can see him coming from a mile away, almost every move has startup lag, he's easy to uair into oblivion. His disjointed range is not nearly as bad as a sword user or olimar, cause all the ones where it makes a difference are slow moves, excluding his dair, which is one of his sexiest moves.

You're right, if you don't anticipate and react to lucario, he'll own you. Luckily, it's crap easy to anticipate Lucario. XP

 

[KeyKid19]

I don't think of Lucario as one to overpower Falcon personally, but he is on the strong side for having such ranged attacks. The power ball doesn't kill until around 180% so don't worry too much about that one. Ftilt is your key asset in this matchup because it has more reach than most of Lucario's moves and has decent power and ok priority. Running A is also a key move because it has almost no startup lag and knocks him up for juggling/aerial attacks. Watch out for the Dair of Lucario because it can be spammed as he is falling to the ground. If someone is doing it try a passthrough approach with air dodge and then Bair him. Uair tends to work as well but not always so just try a variety of different air chasing approaches. A common tactic I've seen amongst Lucario users is that once you show that you are approaching with Running A, they either counter or Fsmash due to the reach of it. A good tactic to counter this is to do a full jump right before reaching Lucario, then fast fall into Fair. Lucario is pretty tall so you have a pretty nice range or hittable areas for the sweetspot even if your fast fall to Fair timing is a little off. If they counter then just fast fall without the Fair and Fsmash or Falcon Punch if you're really quick with it. You can even start the Falcon Punch while falling if you see the counter early enough so then you're pretty much got a guaranteed hit. I actually find edgeguarding Lucario to be pretty easy because he falls VERY slowly so you have a lot of airtime opportunity. His UpB also has pretty bad startup lag so it's really easy to space him in the air, wait for him to start it, and then Bair him to a KO most of the time. Dair might also be a good option with this but I have not really used it that much because Bair works so well. If he's above you then Uair is the best option. I'm pretty sure even a gimp knee will break him UpB flightpath as well so really he's at your mercy once he's off the stage. If he does get the UpB off and doesn't grab the ledge but instead stops his path above the level, this is the best time to punish him with either a Falcon Punch or fully charged Smash. Since he falls so slow and has bad landing lag after the UpB, you really have him at your mercy to wind up and kill him. Other than that beware the Utilt since the hitbox circles his body and if you get knocked up and he chases from below just air dodge into Utilt because he'll whiff and due to his floatyness he'll hang there just waiting to be Uaired.

If you have any more specific Lucario problems let me know because I seem to be pretty successful against him. His counter is the best in the game so just stick to quick and silent moves on approaches and also mindgame him into using it when you're not really attacking. If you do that it's very punishable and after a couple times of that he'll stop using Counter so much so you can start using more powerful moves.

Now, onto Pikachu. Just like in every other character matchup you just have to know the correct spacing. Pika's is critical though because he has the range of a sword user on some moves and is also fairly quick. A small character frame also makes capitalizing on his errors with Fairs more difficult so for the most part avoid the Fair as a punisher unless you're REALLY accurate and consistent with it. Pika's DownB is ridiculously punishable if you space it right because Falcon Punch has more than enough time to charge and hit before Pika recovers from the ground version. If you're chasing a falling Pika on the ground watch out for DownB though because since it doesn't hit him due to his motion it goes all the way to the ground and most likely to you since you'll probably be pretty close behind him with your running speed. The bolt also lasts longer than you'd expect so don't space it and then think it's over and run into it stupidly (I did that a lot at first). B spammers are easy to dodge and punish so that's not really an issue. Dsmash is one of the two ground moves you really need to watch out for. Spotdodging is a terrible idea because of how long the move lasts and how wide its hitbox is. If you just stick to your spacing you will be out of its reach and can just wait until its over and then do a Running A or Falcon Kick. Tilts are your friend in general and DSmash is a good Smash option here. Mastering the hopped Fsmash is also great because you'll hop right into range if you're at the right spacing for staying out of his range. Uair when air chasing because his Dair is not ranged at all. If you get him up in the air on a Running A you'll most likely be able to get two Uairs in on him because a lot of Pika users try to use the Dair too much. Your Dair works well against his Uair so use it when air chased. Oh and I almost forgot his Fsmash is the other move you need to be wary of on the ground but it can be dodged and punished if you're quick.

 

[KeyKid19]

Lucario is not that powerful. His fairs combo, his utilt is awesome, and his counter and aura sphere can kill at high percentages, along with his bair, dsmash, and fsmash.

But he's predictable. I can see him coming from a mile away, almost every move has startup lag, he's easy to uair into oblivion. His disjointed range is not nearly as bad as a sword user or olimar, cause all the ones where it makes a difference are slow moves, excluding his dair, which is one of his sexiest moves.

You're right, if you don't anticipate and react to lucario, he'll own you. Luckily, it's crap easy to anticipate Lucario. XP

You beat me to it. lol We both said the same things I just was more longwinded (as usual). lol

 

[KeyKid19]

Update on Metaknight:

Messing around in Training Mode again and I'd say that Falcon Kick is THE move to use against Meta. It breaks through his held A, his Side B drill (which really sucks by the way but this helps a lot), and his B tornado. Utilt and Dtilt also are options against the held A but Falcon Punch doesn't consistently break through it unless you are more than barely out of his A range. So now here's how countering his most annoying moves stands:

B Tornado:

Raptor Boost (ground or aerial)
Falcon Kick

Side B Drill:

Falcon Kick (nothing else works that I've seen at least so this is crucial)

A Spam:

Utilt
Dtilt
Falcon Kick

Once I get a real player over here I'll try and see how aerial Falcon Kick works against these three moves. Hopefully it works as well but I can't test it by myself very easily. lol

Oh by the way Runeblade I think the time is coming to update the first post with an organized list of everything everyone has said in here. Also it might be good to list the tactics posted in the stickeyed thread on this board in the first post as well just so we have everything significant that has been posted on these boards.

 

[Runeblade279]

Original post updated! All useful information has been compiled, I tried to credit everything to the original poster, if I missed something, just tell me and I'll fix it. =)

Huzzah falcon research!

 

[IWuvGeno]

Update on Metaknight:

I'm seeing a lot of the same things here. Tilts are extremely effective in getting the range advantage, and sometimes, the speed advantage on MK.

NOTE: His tornado attack will clank with Raptor Boost only during certain frames it seems. Basically, make sure you are no less than a couple Falcon distances away from him before you attempt this... but no more than a few Falcon distances (excuse my crude measuring system). Unless I'm crazy, Raptor Boost actually has 3 stages... in which the middle stage commands the most priority and will clank. This is actually very similar to Falcon Kick, which also seems to have 3 stages (from low to high to low priority). The good news is, this makes Side B a much more usable move against MK, as it is already semi-effective for baiting an attack (as long as it isn't neutral A's).

 

[KeyKid19]

I'm seeing a lot of the same things here. Tilts are extremely effective in getting the range advantage, and sometimes, the speed advantage on MK.

NOTE: His tornado attack will clank with Raptor Boost only during certain frames it seems. Basically, make sure you are no less than a couple Falcon distances away from him before you attempt this... but no more than a few Falcon distances (excuse my crude measuring system). Unless I'm crazy, Raptor Boost actually has 3 stages... in which the middle stage commands the most priority and will clank. This is actually very similar to Falcon Kick, which also seems to have 3 stages (from low to high to low priority). The good news is, this makes Side B a much more usable move against MK, as it is already semi-effective for baiting an attack (as long as it isn't neutral A's).

Thanks for that note on the Raptor Boost/Falcon Kick. I haven't noticed the priority shift on Raptor Boost but I do see what you're saying about Falcon Kick. You're probably right though. Good info!

 

[KeyKid19]

Ok so I may have stumbled upon a nice little edgegrarding tactic against Snake. Wait for him to use his UpB then jump off and do your own UpB. You'll knock him back and the way you and he end up you are perfectly in line to do the same thing again. You can seriously just UpB him over and over until he dies. Now this may be airdodgeable by smart Snakes which would in turn screw you but just be sure to not use your UpB again until he does. Also if you accidentally use it too early just DI so that when he finally uses his he'll hit you with it and you'll be able to recover. Like I said I'm not sure if this will work against good Snake users (or any for that matter) but it sure worked like a beast against the CPU level 9 I was just playing. Three stocked him in 1:12. lol

Oh also I discovered today that Raptor Boost CAN clink Pika's Fsmash. I'm not sure how consistently this happens but it happened to me once today during a Classic mode run I was doing (which is very difficult on Intense by the way). I'll try and look into this some more and see if it's worthwhile.

It turns out that one of three things happen when you get a Pika Fsmash vs. Raptor Boost matchup. You'll either get hit by it, clink it, or pass through it and hit Pika. From the what I can tell the outcome is determined by spacing and timing combined because at certain distances from Pika I always got hit and at others I would either clink or pass through. My very primitive test of this leads me to believe that the farther you are from Pika (to a point) the better your chance is of clinking or passing through. Also Pika's Fsmash seems to have a priority shift like Raptor Boost does (credited to IWuvGeno). After a few frames of it being at full extension it seems to lose almost all priority so if you attack just before its done you should get through. Also I am not entirely sure of this but I think that if Raptor Boost is at its highest stage of priority, it will clink with Pika's Fsmash at its highest stage of priority. I'm not sure though so don't quote me on that. It certainly seems possible and logical though. Maybe once I figure out more about the priority shift of Raptor Boost I'll be able to come to a more concrete conclusion about this and many other move priority matchups.

 

[KeyKid19]

Ok so Raptor Boost is the greatest move ever for water levels. If you and your opponent are both swimming, simply short hop (which will get you out of the swimming animation and in the air, but still in the water sort of) and spike them to their death. It's really hard to avoid since most people will be more worried about getting up than defending or attacking. It won't kill until high percents but it is a nice little trick to use on people. Also it seems to affect heavier characters more.

 

[talkingbeatles]

Raptor boost is just **** sexy if you use it right.

Have you guys tried baiting people to edge guard and then raptor boosting them?
It works on dumb people, I swear. Sometimes on the smart ones too.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Snake isn't 50/50 with anyone except Toon Link and maybe Wolf.

Also the Marth info is incorrect.

All of Marth's aerials kill now. If anything they got better not worse.

And Dair is his only laggy aerial.

Might wanna fix that info.

 

[Runeblade279]

Snake isn't 50/50 with anyone except Toon Link and maybe Wolf.

Also the Marth info is incorrect.

All of Marth's aerials kill now. If anything they got better not worse.

And Dair is his only laggy aerial.

Might wanna fix that info.

Snake isn't that hard to fight in my experience, if he's so hard, why?

Marth's fair is slower, there's more lag at the beginning and end. Dair is still laggy, his nair is still quick, but not as much knockback. Trust me, they hardly got better.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth's fair comes out in 4 frames. How is that slow?

Snake is hard to fight due to all his stage control and crazy hitboxes on his tilts. The range on his tilts is equal to Marth's.

Marth's Fair isn't laggy at all. This is just false info. All his aerials kill around 130 when tipped. They all got better. How did they not get better?

 

[KeyKid19]

Snake is not so bad once you learn what the hell all his moves do. He is definitely the hardest person to face for the first time because he's so strange but once you learn how he fights he isn't so bad. He's like Ike only slower in some regards and with less range (from what I've seen in my relatively low number of encounters). Some of Snake's moves are ridiculous but if you don't hang yourself out to dry chances are he won't connect with them.

As for Marth I don't think anything on him got significantly boosted. He is still very good but I don't think he's ridiculous or anything. Also Marth's Fair has enough lag that if you airdodge it you can get your own attack in before he can do anything else.

 

[Runeblade279]

I updated the Marth section so its more clear on how to fight him and what I meant by how to beat his aerials.

That should clear up the confusion hopefully.

 

[KeyKid19]

I like the Marth update. Very informative and I think your analysis is more clear now.

I'm going to try and get some more character matchups going tonight. Even though Falcon's worst matchups are for the most part covered already, having at least some info for every character will make this a top-notch guide for all Falcon players. The most crucial thing to figure out against every character seems to be priority matchups. It's going to be crucial to know what moves work against specific characters and what moves do not. A good example of this is the little Metaknight priority thing that we have posted here. I've found Metaknight to be a lot easier to fight now that I know what moves are good against his and what moves are not. The same applies to all other characters as well. Once we learn how to go about fighting the other characters then we can truly get down to work on mastering Falcon.

 

[vills]

Big burn f**k U....

 

[IWuvGeno]

Marth's fair comes out in 4 frames. How is that slow?

Snake is hard to fight due to all his stage control and crazy hitboxes on his tilts. The range on his tilts is equal to Marth's.

Marth's Fair isn't laggy at all. This is just false info. All his aerials kill around 130 when tipped. They all got better. How did they not get better?

This info is false too.

4 frames is a decent amount of delay on an aerial, especially since it takes about half that for Falcon's nair to come out. The Hitbox actually takes a while longer to overlap someone at equal or less height than Marth. Since aerials can't clank, the only way you could take priority is if you started your aerial first or if they never contested priority in the first place. You wouldn't say Marth's Fair is laggy, but you might say it is somewhat slow. Marth's Nair by comparison is quite fast.

All his moves kill at medium percentages when tipped. How did they not get better? Easy, the range has been nerfed slightly. No one is saying they're bad. I just hope you're not trying to imply that they got better.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ummmm.

A move coming out in 4 frames is slow?

What? >_>

Marth's forward B comes out in 4 frames. Is that move slow too?

Laggy refers to recovery time BTW.

Recovery time for fair is about 7 frames I think. Same as an l-cancelled fair in melee.

So...what are you talking about exactly?

And yeah overall they got better. One of Marth's main weaknesses in Melee was the lack of killer aerials and now he has them so...yeah I'm gonna say that overall they got better.

Anyway, I'm done here.

 

[KeyKid19]

Ummmm.

A move coming out in 4 frames is slow?

What? >_>

Marth's forward B comes out in 4 frames. Is that move slow too?

Laggy refers to recovery time BTW.

Recovery time for fair is about 7 frames I think. Same as an l-cancelled fair in melee.

So...what are you talking about exactly?

And yeah overall they got better. One of Marth's main weaknesses in Melee was the lack of killer aerials and now he has them so...yeah I'm gonna say that overall they got better.

Anyway, I'm done here.

The point isn't that it comes out in four frames. The point is that its trajectory takes significantly longer than four frames to travel the entirety of its range, which leaves him open for being hit from below (notably by a Falcon Uair since that's the board we're having this discussion in). So if you add it all up, a missed Fair is 4 frames plus all of the ones that are during the attack plus 7 on the end. That adds up to a laggy move.

And no, laggy does NOT refer to recovery time in every instance. I would say that Ganondorf's Utilt is laggy not because of what's on the end but what's on the front of it. Just because laggy often describes the end of a move doesn't mean it can only be used in that regard.

Tippers have always been good and now they're better. But with shorter reach now Marth is hardly what can be considered buffed.

 

[Emblem Lord]

What you were refering to was execution time. Which is not lag.

Actually lag is a horrible word.

There is start-up time = How long it takes the move to begin.

Execution time = How long it takes the move to follow through once it begins.

Recovery time = How long it takes a character to go back to neutral after a move is done with it's execution.

Anyway, now I'm done.

Honestly though Fair isn't a laggy move or w/e you wanna call it. If it was then Marth wouldn't be able to do two in one short hop now would he?

Marth's aerials aren't "laggy" except for Dair.

Know Captain Falcon's Knee is something that I could classify as laggy when he lands from it.

 

[KeyKid19]

Yeah I know the different stages of moves. The reason Marth's Fair is given the "laggy" title is because unlike the knee, the window in which it can hit compared with the total move time is small. The knee can hit pretty much during its entire execution time and while it does have landing lag that is much worse than what Marth gets from his Fair, you have a much larger window with which to hit people in. Also the knee is not really a short hop tool anymore so most of the time when you use it Falcon finishes its entire total move time before landing so there is no lag. Marth's however is not as useful up above the stage as it is barely off the ground.

 

[KeyKid19]

Ok so I just finished playing a very nice ZSS in a Wi-Fi series (which I won 2/3!) and I have some notes about things I noticed in the match.

First off the beginning of the match is crucial. Dodge the parts that will come hurling your way and then pick them up and use them against ZSS. If the ZSS shields you are thankfully fast enough to be able to run up and pick up the part before she can unshield and run up and grab it. So Falcon's speed is REALLY handy in this circumstance (take that Ike and Ganondorf supporters!). In all three matches I was able to utilize the broken parts more effectively than the ZSS simply because I was so much faster on the ground. By the way Falcon feels great with a "projectile." Too bad they will never give him one!!!! Argh so sad. Anyways *ahem* so the parts phase of the match is crucial because it's a great opportunity to get ahead of the ZSS right off the bat. In the first match I played I already had ZSS in Falcon's killzone by the time the parts were gone so it was easy from there to get a quick KO with only like 25% damage on me.

Once the parts are gone then you have to focus on watching the whip. ZSS's Fsmash is very laggy and give you enough time to strike even if you normal shield it. Muffed grab has ridiculously bad lag so Falcon Punch that hoe when she misses. I didn't realize how right Runeblade was about watching out for the DownB -> Kick until I got demolished by it multiple times. I saw the DownB hop as a perfect time to strike but it is not and you have to be careful about any approach you make during it. It's safer to just bait ZSS into using it by doing a shorthop and then just do a Running A into her as soon as she lands.

Anyways Runeblade already has good info which I found useful against ZSS so I won't ramble on anymore about her. One last thing though is that you must not be afraid to dodge and play defensively. That's the ONLY way to beat ZSS. Just wait for an opportunity to strike because they will come if you play smart. Raptor Boost and Falcon Kick both clink the stun gun shot and they are generally good approaches against ZSS anyways (especially if you stand far enough to bait her into doing a long charge her charge gun and then surprise her with a Falcon Kick to the ovaries). So yeah just watch for the Usmash because it spikes (I actually died from its spike once because she was RIGHT on the edge and caught me with the outside of it so I was toast). SHE CAN ALMOST INFINITE COMBO YOU ON MELEE CORNERIA if she spams it from below the wing while you are on top of it. Trust me I was stuck in it for a while and took a LOT of damage in the process. So don't let her get under you if you're on the top of the wing on Melee Corneria.

I really wish I had videos from those three matches I just played. They were seriously probably the most entertaining matches I've had with Brawl thusfar, and they also showed off Falcon well.

Oh by the way I also played a Ganondorf main earlier who seemed pretty good with him and I wiped the floor with him in both matches as Falcon. The match proved to me that Ganondorf's DownB is NOT as good as Falcon's and his UpB is NOT EVEN CLOSE to as good as Falcon's. I had no problems edgeguarding him because with one hit he was out of recovery range. Also he is SO slow and actually comboable at Battlefield (and I suck at Battlefield). I think my combo on him was Running A -> SH-Uair -> Sweetspot Knee. After the Running A he popped up onto the left platform and was lying on the ground since he couldn't tech it and then the Uair poped him right up into Knee range. Also since he has the distinct disadvantage of having a large frame (unlike Falcon) I was able to sweetspot him easily on multiple occasions.

So yeah Falcon > Ganondorf. I know my opponent wasn't the best player but Ganondorf definitely has more severe disadvantages than Falcon.