Falcons current metagame - in detail

[Player-3]

falcon punched saved my *** in a tourney match, I was just really good at predicting my opponents next move. don't get me wrong, it was probably the only falcon punch I used in a serious tourney set. (I've had bad days where I've entered tournies and didn't feel like playing) not to be mean, but some of you sound like fanboys :l

edit: also, knee never said he was lord and savior for these boards and knee was right. you won't land falcon punches on a really good player. at least in new york anyway. I've tried (friendly set) mid air falcon punching bum's ganon. guess what? he air dodge, grabbed ledge, then waited for my reocver and dair'd me. I should've quit these boards a long time ago, I tried, but I don't use any other characters so im stuck here.

Yeah
ive landed punches on good people though...

but it was when they were recovering with a char with a trash/predictable recovery

like zelda... only so many places she can go
:D

 

[PartyHatPikaChu]

Edgeguarding no, recovering yes. Not only is there the mock waveland on some stages and the obvious spike (I know it's predictable, I'm not saying go for it often), but there are some situations where raptor boost is safer, and less predictable. Look at rebaz's channel on youtube if you don't believe me, he uses raptor boost fairly often for recovery, and I don't think he ever gets punished for it because he does it in a safe or unpredictable manner.

Its very easily punished, and predictable. There are times it is safer, but it depends on the opponents character and knowledge about falcon.

Unfortunatly, falcons up b is also very gimpable, making side b a decent second option, while side b sucks, alot.

I rather refrain from using it, unless I am very very close to the ledge, horizontally. (so there is no space for the opponent to punish/gimp/edgehog.)

And offcourse when the opponent is knocked away/unable to gimp/punish/too far away, side b can get you on the stage quickly.
But its still risky

But on the other hand, we do play a risky character

 

[t3h n00b]

Its very easily punished, and predictable. There are times it is safer, but it depends on the opponents character and knowledge about falcon.

Unfortunatly, falcons up b is also very gimpable, making side b a decent second option, while side b sucks, alot.

I rather refrain from using it, unless I am very very close to the ledge, horizontally. (so there is no space for the opponent to punish/gimp/edgehog.)

And offcourse when the opponent is knocked away/unable to gimp/punish/too far away, side b can get you on the stage quickly.
But its still risky

But on the other hand, we do play a risky character

I said half of that and the other half is fairly obvious. All I'm saying is that there are ample opportunities to use it wisely, and it is better than Falcon Dive in some situations, once again, Rebaz uses it very well. I'm not saying to use it almost as much as Falcon Dive offstage, but I don't see why you keep calling it situational when that's obvious.

 

[PartyHatPikaChu]

I said half of that and the other half is fairly obvious. All I'm saying is that there are ample opportunities to use it wisely, and it is better than Falcon Dive in some situations, once again, Rebaz does uses it very well. I'm not saying to use it almost as much as Falcon Dive offstage, but I don't see why you keep calling it situational when that's obvious.

Maybe I keep mentioning it because its true >.<
and I know when to use it and when not to use it. It seems you were too 'pro' RB recovery, not me..

And a little respect is in order.

:bumper::bumper:

 

[t3h n00b]

Maybe I keep mentioning it because its true >.<
and I know when to use it and when not to use it. It seems you were too 'pro' RB recovery, not me..

And a little respect is in order.

:bumper::bumper:

Seriously? I wasn't trying to insult your idea on a basis that was already known, yes, raptor boost is punishable. I said that multiple times and it's obvious. You said it seemed to you that I was too 'pro' RB recovery. Well ok, so you thought it best that you set me straight? I don't understand. I just said that it has obvious offstage uses, and I presume you haven't watched any Rebaz vids, and are just perpetually calling it punishable.

I never said anything about your personal RB skill. I was just stating that it is useful in a lot of situations, and I provided an example of what I meant and how it could be used. I haven't played you, so I have no idea what your skill level is, nor does it matter for the purposes of discussion. I was just putting it out there to show exactly what I meant, and maybe you or someone else reading this thread will find the videos useful.

 

[PartyHatPikaChu]

Seriously? I wasn't trying to insult your idea on a basis that was already known, yes, raptor boost is punishable. I said that multiple times and it's obvious. You said it seemed to you that I was too 'pro' RB recovery. Well ok, so you thought it best that you set me straight? I don't understand. I just said that it has obvious offstage uses, and I presume you haven't watched any Rebaz vids, and are just perpetually calling it punishable.

I never said anything about your personal RB skill. I was just stating that it is useful in a lot of situations, and I provided an example of what I meant and how it could be used. I haven't played you, so I have no idea what your skill level is, nor does it matter for the purposes of discussion. I was just putting it out there to show exactly what I meant, and maybe you or someone else reading this thread will find the videos useful.

If I where you I'd do some research before saying things like that to someone you have never played and not even know

I remember when you came her, with your roy avatar, and thinking DA combo's into an Uair.

Ah good times.

Please, refrain from groundless assumptions next time, and this discussion was over after the post I posted two posts before this one.

:bumper::bumper:

 

[t3h n00b]

If I where you I'd do some research before saying things like that to someone you have never played and not even know

I remember when you came her, with your roy avatar, and thinking DA combo's into an Uair.

Ah good times.

Please, refrain from groundless assumptions next time, and this discussion was over after the post I posted two posts before this one.

:bumper::bumper:

I don't want to have our conversation hog the thread, but I came to this site over a year ago, you came to this site far more recently, I didn't "come here" with a Roy avatar. But I guess you mean at the time that I had the avatar. So can you please direct me to where I said that dash attack combos to uair?

And what research needs to be done? I said that raptor boost is often useful offstage (I have said this pretty much every time I posted in this thread because you keep attacking me, or my opinion). I said that I haven't played you, I'm not saying anything based on a perceived level of skill, which I also said before. Groundless assumptions? This is a game. I'm not trying to make it into science, but I have provided evidence to back up my statement. I'm not trying to argue, I'm just saying, once again, that raptor boost has uses offstage. This is apparently devolving into an argument or semantics or something, and I don't want to spam this thread. So if you want, PM me or something? Raptor boost and Falcon's metagame were not mentioned once in your post, and I understand that it has not been the focal point of my post either.

 

[PartyHatPikaChu]

I don't want to have our conversation hog the thread, but I came to this site over a year ago, you came to this site far more recently, I didn't "come here" with a Roy avatar. But I guess you mean at the time that I had the avatar. So can you please direct me to where I said that dash attack combos to uair?

And what research needs to be done? I said that raptor boost is often useful offstage (I have said this pretty much every time I posted in this thread because you keep attacking me, or my opinion). I said that I haven't played you, I'm not saying anything based on a perceived level of skill, which I also said before. Groundless assumptions? This is a game. I'm not trying to make it into science, but I have provided evidence to back up my statement. I'm not trying to argue, I'm just saying, once again, that raptor boost has uses offstage. This is apparently devolving into an argument or semantics or something, and I don't want to spam this thread. So if you want, PM me or something? Raptor boost and Falcon's metagame were not mentioned once in your post, and I understand that it has not been the focal point of my post either.

I have been here for over two years. I only just made an account this year, and I dont post much.

And you first posted on the falcon board with a roy avatar.

And like I said, this arguement was over after the post I posted three posts ago.
You are blowing up nothing.

I said everything that has to be said about this move, and you disregard it as 'obvious'.
Well, if its that obvious, like almost all other aspects of moves (when to use, when not to use, how to use best etc.), why did you make a moveset discussion?

oh, and: 'raptor boost', 'falcons metagame'.
:bumper::bumper:
:bumper::bumper:

 

[Player-3]

raptor boost offstage is a no no

 

[talkingbeatles]

raptor boost offstage is a no no

Meh.... I think it's circumstantial. I never use it on stage actually.

Or did you mean that... like... raptor boosting off the stage was a no no. Because I agree with that. You'd just die.

 

[Player-3]

Meh.... I think it's circumstantial. I never use it on stage actually.

Or did you mean that... like... raptor boosting off the stage was a no no. Because I agree with that. You'd just die.

using it off stage while the enemy is on that side of the stage is a nono

i use it on the ground all the time

 

[King Omega]

using it off stage while the enemy is on that side of the stage is a nono

i use it on the ground all the time

Actually, it's his only way of spiking some characters since his is Dair is SO Metor Cancellable :/

You're totally right, however; it usually doesn't work due to the fact that all of Falcon's moves are prioritized head-on (which is what you were talking about) by 90% of everybody else's moves. That siad, it can still spike from equal (or about equal) priority, and the knockback will help Falcon recover.

 

[POKE40]

Actually, it's his only way of spiking some characters since his is Dair is SO Metor Cancellable :/

You're totally right, however; it usually doesn't work due to the fact that all of Falcon's moves are prioritized head-on (which is what you were talking about) by 90% of everybody else's moves. That siad, it can still spike from equal (or about equal) priority, and the knockback will help Falcon recover.

You should never raptor boost to spike.
there is a high percentage to punish this. causing CF to be put in a very bad position
And a incredibly high percentage of SDing...

another thing is the frames of this move is long. Falcon becomes into a easy prey following this move.
all of falcon b moves are dangerous lol

 

[Psychoace]

Flubbed knee>opponent trips>Dtilt (better options are present, recommended not to use)
Flubbed Fair>opponent trips>Dtilt

maybe a fix is in order?

also I'd throw in using dair went sent vertical for canceling momentum.

 

[King Omega]

I only said it was his only way of spiking some people, not that it's a good idea to use.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

please don't assume because rebaz does something that it is immediate law. he's a good player but everyone makes mistakes. just learn when and when not to use your moves.

 

[PartyHatPikaChu]

please don't assume because rebaz does something that it is immediate law. he's a good player but everyone makes mistakes. just learn when and when not to use your moves.

True that.^

Double true.

 

[t3h n00b]

please don't assume because rebaz does something that it is immediate law. he's a good player but everyone makes mistakes. just learn when and when not to use your moves.

I said that his channel had great examples of when to use raptor boost offstage, that's all. He uses it when I wouldn't think to sometimes, and I don't remember ever seeing him get punished for it. Anyway, it was just an example of how raptor boost isn't always a terrible idea offstage, no one's forced to watch his videos. I learned when and when not to use some of Falcon's moves partially by watching Rebaz.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

I said that his channel had great examples of when to use raptor boost offstage, that's all. He uses it when I wouldn't think to sometimes, and I don't remember ever seeing him get punished for it. Anyway, it was just an example of how raptor boost isn't always a terrible idea offstage, no one's forced to watch his videos. I learned when and when not to use some of Falcon's moves partially by watching Rebaz.

You will learn more through experience rather than watching someone else. Imitation is harder than growth.

 

[t3h n00b]

You will learn more through experience rather than watching someone else. Imitation is harder than growth.

I agree, although you often need somewhere to start from. I don't even mean specifically about this, but the stadium record-holders all built off of each others' strategies, and that's pretty much what the metagame is. But anyway, yeah doing is better than watching, I just used the videos as examples to back up my point. And personally, I watch a lot of videos, because I don't play at all for a week straight a lot of month for one reason or another.

Spoiler

AP classes

Oh and when are you normally on wifi? I can pretty much only be on weekdays from 2:30-5 for now at least.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

I agree, although you often need somewhere to start from. I don't even mean specifically about this, but the stadium record-holders all built off of each others' strategies, and that's pretty much what the metagame is. But anyway, yeah doing is better than watching, I just used the videos as examples to back up my point. And personally, I watch a lot of videos, because I don't play at all for a week straight a lot of month for one reason or another.

Spoiler

AP classes

Oh and when are you normally on wifi? I can pretty much only be on weekdays from 2:30-5 for now at least.

i play wifi, but only with local friends.

 

[King Omega]

I finally read the entire metagame post and I have one major complaint: the Falcon Punch generalization. It's bad to make blanket statements like "there are ALWAYS better options..."

1. stunned opponents
2. punish predictable recoveries (Zelda, Pikachu)
3. jump out to hit some horizontal recoveries (DK, Snake)
4. Sacred Consecutive Hits :/
5. recovering....seriously, with Falcon's ridiculous ledge-grab box from Up+B, this is viable from a bit below ledge level on up

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

I finally read the entire metagame post and I have one major complaint: the Falcon Punch generalization. It's bad to make blanket statements like "there are ALWAYS better options..."

1. stunned opponents
2. punish predictable recoveries (Zelda, Pikachu)
3. jump out to hit some horizontal recoveries (DK, Snake)
4. Sacred Consecutive Hits :/
5. recovering....seriously, with Falcon's ridiculous ledge-grab box from Up+B, this is viable from a bit below ledge level on up

i stopped reading after seeing pikachu labeled under predictable recoveries.

 

[King Omega]

i stopped reading after seeing pikachu labeled under predictable recoveries.

I'll explain better.

In certain cases, you can predict Pikachu's Up+B because of the angle the Pikachu is recovering at. Say, Pikachu is just under the FD lip and out of regukar jumps. He uses the first dash diagonally outwards. He then needs to dash diagonally inwards to the stage. If the player doesn't use the second dash to directly get the edge, they will a) fall short and die or b) overshoot and lag like heck on their way down. PAWNCH

 

[RjPunch]

King Omega, first off not trying to be mean but have you been in a tournament?
1. If your opponent is good, then it's nearly impossible for them to make that mistake
2. Could work but Pikachu and Zelda probably would stay out of that situation
3. Good DK and Snake players know how to get around that
4. Can you explain this because it sounds like melee. "Consecutive hits" is just a fancy way of saying "combo"
If you live in or close to Louisiana, come to LasT Smash 3, you would see what I mean.
By the way there are better options like Utilt, Uair, and such.
Not trying to be mean though

 

[LuLLo]

The only times you can really land a Falcon Punch is just pure luck OR predictability/opponent stupidness. It's easy to jump back and Reverse FP a Falco's Phantasm from the edge, but a good opponent won't (99,7% of the time) make these mistakes. And even if they do, just Knee/U-tilt them, it pays off a little less, but it's also less risky.

 

[t3h n00b]

There are actually a lot of predictable recoveries you can do this with. Phantasm, Illusion, Green Missile, even Raptor Boost and murder choke. I'm not saying that Falcon Punch is a very useful move, but there really are a lot of good situations to use it in, and yes I know it involves a lot of predictability. But I played a Luigi on AiB, he missed a Super Jump Punch and hit me with the weak hitbox I think, so I Falcon Punched him on the way down. I played a Lucas and he missed PKT2, and I reverse Falcon Punched him as he landed. These situations may not occur frequently, but if you pay attention for them, it can really pay off (my opponent and I were on the last stock in both of those games).

 

[LuLLo]

You're right, lots of characters can be screwed over by this, not saying you should totally avoid the Pauwnch, I even throw one out in friendlies from time to time on a totally random moment and I hit pretty frequently with it, but it's because some of my friends just suck.

 

[King Omega]

King Omega, first off not trying to be mean but have you been in a tournament?
1. If your opponent is good, then it's nearly impossible for them to make that mistake
2. Could work but Pikachu and Zelda probably would stay out of that situation
3. Good DK and Snake players know how to get around that
4. Can you explain this because it sounds like melee. "Consecutive hits" is just a fancy way of saying "combo"
If you live in or close to Louisiana, come to LasT Smash 3, you would see what I mean.
By the way there are better options like Utilt, Uair, and such.
Not trying to be mean though

I played in few Melee tournaments, but I've had Brawl since it released and I've played in many.

1. I know; I'm providing examples where FP is the best option. In this case, it is.
2. Zelda in particular: They'd certainly try to, but Zelda only has so many places she can go. The lag on her reappearance makes an FP safe even if you predict wrong.
3. One of my friends mains both DK and Snake, and of course I've never hit him out of a recovery with an FP. It seems you're misunderstanding: the OP said there were no uses for the FP. I'm arguing against that.
4. It was a Brawl vs Melee joke, you know... "Brawl doesn't have any combos, it's all consecutive hits"

No need to say you aren't trying to be mean, it's okay

 

[Zeallyx]

I played in few Melee tournaments, but I've had Brawl since it released and I've played in many.

1. I know; I'm providing examples where FP is the best option. In this case, it is.
2. Zelda in particular: They'd certainly try to, but Zelda only has so many places she can go. The lag on her reappearance makes an FP safe even if you predict wrong.
3. One of my friends mains both DK and Snake, and of course I've never hit him out of a recovery with an FP. It seems you're misunderstanding: the OP said there were no uses for the FP. I'm arguing against that.
4. It was a Brawl vs Melee joke, you know... "Brawl doesn't have any combos, it's all consecutive hits"

No need to say you aren't trying to be mean, it's okay

Let me rephrase what I wrote inthe OP:

no safe and/or guaranteed setups for the FP. Making other moves always a better option.
As it is never guaranteed.
And safer is always better, especially in competitive play and especially using falcon (who already has very few realiable/safe moves).

 

[talkingbeatles]

Let me rephrase what I wrote inthe OP:

no safe and/or guaranteed setups for the FP. Making other moves always a better option.
As it is never guaranteed.
And safer is always better, especially in competitive play and especially using falcon (who already has very few realiable/safe moves).

I think one could make an argument for NO move being always guaranteed. Some moves just have a higher rate of landing.

Safer is always better, but perhaps not being safe may throw an opponent off, every now and then.

Or not. Whatever.
Remember, even in tournaments, your opponent in only human.

 

[Zeallyx]

I think one could make an argument for NO move being always guaranteed. Some moves just have a higher rate of landing.

Safer is always better, but perhaps not being safe may throw an opponent off, every now and then.

Or not. Whatever.
Remember, even in tournaments, your opponent in only human.

very true.
The factor of the opponent beeing human can in theory let every move be able to connect.

but the falcon punch is just too slow. it is dodgeable in 99% of the situations your opponent can be in.

Its just too risky. As the punishment you'll receive can turn the match around, and as the falcon punch hitting is like a chance of 1%, the fact a connecting falcon punch can turn the match around in falcons favor is pretty much moot.
And when you throw out a punch and it misses, and you dont get punished..you couldve even done 2% damage with a much safer jab. (just an example, but you'll get the idea).

 

[talkingbeatles]

very true.
The factor of the opponent beeing human can in theory let every move be able to connect.

but the falcon punch is just too slow. it is dodgeable in 99% of the situations your opponent can be in.

Its just too risky. As the punishment you'll receive can turn the match around, and as the falcon punch hitting is like a chance of 1%, the fact a connecting falcon punch can turn the match around in falcons favor is pretty much moot.
And when you throw out a punch and it misses, and you dont get punished..you couldve even done 2% damage with a much safer jab. (just an example, but you'll get the idea).

Honestly man, I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here. I hardly ever use the FP. Maybe like once out of every ten matches. And those are just friendlies. It doesn't ever matter how minuscule the chance of it hitting is though. I'll continue to use it in very rare occasions. Simply because the reward for landing it is so great.

 

[Zeallyx]

Honestly man, I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here. I hardly ever use the FP. Maybe like once out of every ten matches. And those are just friendlies. It doesn't ever matter how minuscule the chance of it hitting is though. I'll continue to use it in very rare occasions. Simply because the reward for landing it is so great.

The reward may be great, but the risk is even greater.
the reward-risk scale is severely out of balance with the FP.

That is all.
Not saying you cant use it. Your play style is your playstyle, wich I respect.
But I'm just saying

 

[Player-3]

Let me rephrase what I wrote inthe OP:

no safe and/or guaranteed setups for the FP. Making other moves always a better option.
As it is never guaranteed.
And safer is always better, especially in competitive play and especially using falcon (who already has very few realiable/safe moves).

1. Sheild broken
2. Teammate throws with correct timing
3. sweetspot bair lock
4. sourspot bair lock
5. uair bounce

 

[Zeallyx]

1. Sheild broken
2. Teammate throws with correct timing
3. sweetspot bair lock
4. sourspot bair lock
5. uair bounce

1. this never happens. thats safe to say. unless you are marth and use shield breaker at the correct moment. but falcon =/= marth.
2. moot. talking about 1V1.
3. No guaranteed setup for lock = not guaranteed
4.No guaranteed setup for lock = not guaranteed
5. No guaranteed setup for lock = not guaranteed.

only guaranteed punch can be executed when punishing a missed rest. But that is like..never, too.

 

[Player-3]

1. this never happens. thats safe to say. unless you are marth and use shield breaker at the correct moment. but falcon =/= marth.
2. moot. talking about 1V1.
3. No guaranteed setup for lock = not guaranteed
4.No guaranteed setup for lock = not guaranteed
5. No guaranteed setup for lock = not guaranteed.

only guaranteed punch can be executed when punishing a missed rest. But that is like..never, too.

i know i was just heckling you

 

[Zeallyx]

i know i was just heckling you

<3 ^_^

10notangeredreplies.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

1. this never happens. thats safe to say. unless you are marth and use shield breaker at the correct moment. but falcon =/= marth.

Meh, I've broken two shields. x] never =/= possible

 

[talkingbeatles]

Meh, I've broken two shields. x] never =/= possible

With Falcon?
Wow. Rock on...

That's insane. How does one go about doing that?


...till the break of dawn