Falcon Mind-Meld: A Captain Falcon Matchup Thread (now on: EDGEGUARDING))

[0Room]

Well Tekk
That is a great option IF AND ONLY IF
they don't have a second jump.

If they do they can DJ uair you off and stage spike you
But yes, taking away a CF's best option for recovery forces one of three things

1) Death
2) Landing on stage
3) edgecancelling the upB

Of course not everyone can do #3 so

 

[DuckPimp]

falcon dittos: grab the edge

 

[0Room]

I mean why don't we just expand this to edgeguarding in general
Separated into separate match ups

So for example, what's the general strategy for
Fox/Falco
Sheik
CF/Ganon
Marth

We might as well finish on CF while we're here

 

[DuckPimp]

title changed:

for edgeguarding marth, marthkiller always at reasonable distances, where they cant reach up and tap us with fair or something

if they land on stage, reverse knee

 

[0Room]

If only we were Fox in that moment :angry:
They can light shield
get hit by fair
Shine OoS

It's mad smart
If only we had something that we could whip out like that

Edge guarding Marth is really easy
Basically refreshing invincibility and ledgehop stomp/knee/roll off the edge/get up attack works wonders
He's so easy to read once he's off stage, especially once you know his range.

One thing that's fun to do is DJ bair him out of nowhere
If he's still sidebing he'll get caught out of it if they don't see it coming

 

[JPeGImage]

Edge guarding marth: Depends on how far back he is from the edge, imo. . . .
TL;DR (short) version - the amount invincibility frames you get from ledge seems to underestimated and should be maximized to cover a lot of marth's recovery options.
Simply, try getting on the edge either RIGHT before marth gets to the ledge, himself, forcing him to go underneath or, if he's already underneath the stage and right before you think he will start his upb. Both of which w/o getting hit, yourself. Try different things out to actually see how many invincible frames you get/what you can do with them

Long version:
I like to try to treat it like it's a flowchart
if he's at a medium-far distance and coming in mid-highish, and he's far enough back to where a dj wont get him the edge, i like to fullhop backwards a bit and react to a sideb. once you see one you can ff bair him on reaction before he has a chance to do anything and finish the stock.
If he doesnt go for sideb (or suspects you for gimping him for sideBing), I still do the fh back and then dj back to the edge AFTER he gets to the point where he's too low to dj fair you from doing that.
A lot of the time, they'll try dj hitting you from taing the ledge, after that point, most middish marths will semi-panic upb if they tried hitting you with fair (and missed), in which case staying on the edge will give you enough invincibility frames to wait it out and act accordingly. If they sideb again, you can either hold on for dear life and react getup when they upb and it looks like theyre gonna get on the stage, or you can push away form the edge and bair them->quick dj to catch them by surprise (dont do this too much to the point theyre expecting it). And if they dont side b and continue to go down, you hold on and react roll once it gets to the point where they look like theyre too low to fully get on the ledge.
Now, if they dont dj, I'll switch up betweenfalling off with a bair, or doing a haxreset((push away from ledge, jump, and then di back to edge) as it protects you from getting hit from an early upb moreso than a regular reset)/normal reset and then seeing how they react to it, hoping that they upb as soon as I get my invincibility back.

I wont go into as much detail when the marth is recovering and he's pretty close, but you basically want to try geting under to uair him if he's high (especially after he uses a dj) and trying to sneak in grabbing the edge, right before he gets on the edge himself, to use your invincibility frames to get him to upb early on the ledge so you can dair->reverseknee or get him to go low enough so you can edgehog n stuff.

Plus, there's a small window where the marth is below the stage where, at that moment, if he upbs, you can roll on stage to edgehog him and have enough time to run back and grab him if he lands on stage before he can do anything

 

[Deleted member]

i light shield for .05 seconds then drop onto the edge and hope that ****s them up

and for some reason it always does

 

[Wenbobular]

Marth's recovery is bad

DJ Bair regrab is amazing (when lightshield edgehog doesn't just kill them)

 

[0Room]

Does anyone do that against other characters?
I find it doesn't work as well against anyone else

 

[Varist]

Falcon edge nonsense

I really liked the way you explained your point-of-view in this post. Any insight on a recovering Fox with no DJ left, far enough to sweetspot the edge with his up-B but close enough to land on the stage depending on choice? Assume FD.

 

[tarheeljks]

protect the edge, react if they go onstage imo

edit: at least in a vacuum. if you've got a good read then go w/that obv

 

[Varist]

Need to know when to jump down and protect the edge because they'll switch up the angle, can't get back up there fast enough it seems like. need moar info, NEED MORE JPeGImage!

 

[tarheeljks]

hmm, idk really depends on the situation and stage i guess. if they are far enough out that you don't want to go off stage, then i'd think you can stall on the ledge and be ready to waveland onstage if necessary


edit: of course this could backfire

 

[Varist]

Even with some pretty clean wavelands it seems like I just can't get to Fox before his up-b landing lag ends. I practiced it for about a half hour last night (it comes up in every Fox match) but I'm not getting it consistently. Sometimes he's close enough to the edge for me to get a grab after the waveland but when he lands outside waveland grab range, it's cut too close and he always avoids me. Do I pretty much have to muscle-memory frame-perfect wavelands onto stage to accomplish consistent punishes?

 

[tarheeljks]

do you have a vid, i think i'm seeing something different. what situation is he getting back on the stage at ground level where you couldn't have intercepted from the ledge or hit him out of the firefox? like if he is coming from above then obv don't grab the ledge, but i kind of assumed he was around ledge height.

on second thought, i don't really know why i said waveland on, you are right that there is too little lag. i still think you can work from the ledge though-- recently i have done, and have seen more and more falcons doing, the ganon uair off the ledge (if they come onstage). alternatively if you are on the stage you could time a jump and throw out a move (prob bair) to intercept the up b



edit: this is falco but

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZFblT1mMFk#t=1m8s


hax does some low f-tilts as well against up b's from the same height

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZFblT1mMFk#t=2m12s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZFblT1mMFk#t=3m42s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZFblT1mMFk#t=4m52s

 

[Varist]

Low f-tilt's thigh hitbox seems to let it cover both options. No capture card, but around ledge-level recovery, where I'm too late getting there to go hit him out of the up-b charge, and have to predict whether he'll go for the stage or sweetspot the ledge. I can see uair off of ledge working if I time it right, but the problem I had with that was just not being able to get onto the ledge fast enough.

 

[0Room]

NEED MORE JPeGImage!

I agree
I <3 me some JPeGImage

He needs to post more

But basically you need to Dj STRAIGHT up invincible knee if he's going up and at an angle
If he's going straight at you, roll

 

[Pr0jecT]

So I was discussing some things with rockcrock and 2 points came up.

1) trading with recoveries allow you to edgegaurd further

2) up air with falcon has a ****ton of range and learning to tipman spike with it us a suggestion.

I've been doing both recently to the best of my abilities and so far the results have been highly favorable

 

[Juggleguy]

little trick at mid %'s vs Falcon, Ganon, Sheik, even Marth and spacies

1. refresh ledge invincibility
2. ledge hop bair
3. go out and just knee them if they DI'd in or up

most people auto-DI in when being edgeguarded by Falcon because it makes the most sense and seems safe... you gotta prove them wrong and instill some fear for next time

here's a perfect example of this done by Mango: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00BML4cJ2PI#t=5m42s

 

[Brookman]

Did you guys know that Cort beat Azen with Falcon at Pound 3???

 

[0Room]

That was pretty Juggleguy, I was going to ask for a visual so thanks for cutting me off
And No I did not Brookman

 

[Windrose]

So I was discussing some things with rockcrock and 2 points came up.

1) trading with recoveries allow you to edgegaurd further

2) up air with falcon has a ****ton of range and learning to tipman spike with it us a suggestion.

I've been doing both recently to the best of my abilities and so far the results have been highly favorable

What is the tipman spike?

 

[tarheeljks]

reverse uair ( i think), timed so that the arc of the uair is going down. think from like 12 to 3 or 12 to 9 on a clock

 

[Windrose]

i thought that was a pikachu thing...it's also not a true spike right?

 

[DuckPimp]

the tipman spike is originally a ganondorf move, though

its the uair spike

semispike technically

 

[Wenbobular]

Much less effective with Falcon because his upair just stops right around where he's horizontal in the air whereas Ganon's hits like ... almost in a 360 <_<

 

[tarheeljks]

no, but falcon can still cover a good radius doing it from the ledge

 

[Wenbobular]

Yeah but at that point you might as well Bair IMO
Also in most matchups I feel like you'd rather just do some variant involving knee ...

Dittos / Ganon you just want to be killing them with knee so they can't recover and it's easy enough to knee their up-b as it starts that going for the knee is totally worth it

Vs spacies weak knee -> Uair covers a lot of illusion heights + Firefoxes above the ledge but loses to dropping down, which I don't think Uair covers all that well either ... the mixup to that is fake the knee and just jump back to the stage

Vs Marth / Sheik / characters with lots of up-b lag you just do big ledgehop attacks and they die

Vs most other people knee kills outright and is usually just as easy if not easier to land than tip Uair

It's not a terrible option (ledgehop reverse Uair if they're too high for Bair + option to regrab ledge) but if you're going offstage knee is just better in a lot of situations ... you have a super long / big hitbox to hit with and don't really require timing

Having Uair ledge regrab is decent but Bair regrab just beats it most times IMO

That's my take on edgeguarding with tipper Uair ... might have a niche in some matchups but you might as well be kneeing most of the time

Obviously I haven't covered anywhere close to everything but I think weak/strong knee >>> trying to tip them with a Uair

 

[0Room]

Falcon players need to knee all the time to finish combos imo.. because it puts the opponent in such a ****ty position most of the time. <3 it. If the opponent is even at 50 close to the ledge I would knee and edgeguard lol.

Knee is always the best option if you can get it
Falcon's uair spike is best on his knees
So

Just knee them

 

[Windrose]

Yeah but at that point you might as well Bair IMO
Also in most matchups I feel like you'd rather just do some variant involving knee ...

Dittos / Ganon you just want to be killing them with knee so they can't recover and it's easy enough to knee their up-b as it starts that going for the knee is totally worth it

Vs spacies weak knee -> Uair covers a lot of illusion heights + Firefoxes above the ledge but loses to dropping down, which I don't think Uair covers all that well either ... the mixup to that is fake the knee and just jump back to the stage

Vs Marth / Sheik / characters with lots of up-b lag you just do big ledgehop attacks and they die

Vs most other people knee kills outright and is usually just as easy if not easier to land than tip Uair

It's not a terrible option (ledgehop reverse Uair if they're too high for Bair + option to regrab ledge) but if you're going offstage knee is just better in a lot of situations ... you have a super long / big hitbox to hit with and don't really require timing

Having Uair ledge regrab is decent but Bair regrab just beats it most times IMO

That's my take on edgeguarding with tipper Uair ... might have a niche in some matchups but you might as well be kneeing most of the time

Obviously I haven't covered anywhere close to everything but I think weak/strong knee >>> trying to tip them with a Uair

yeah...i agree with this.

 

[0Room]

Wenbobular knows what he's talking about

 

[Wenbobular]

<_<

I just know that knee is real good
That's all you really need to play Falcon haha

 

[0Room]

You will accept my compliment wenbo, and you will like it >

But that's not all you need to know, but that's definitely the first thing you need to know lol

 

[Strong Badam]

ganon's "tipman's spike" sends at the same angle as shine does and does 6 damage
falcon's sends at the same angle as uair does facing forward and does some amount of damage. due to this angle change, it's significantly less effective for edgeguarding, although situationally useful due to being able to ledgehop uair.

 

[Wenbobular]

Well I mean
Knee is like the best combo move
The best combo finisher
One of the best edgeguarding options
Late knee is frame advantage on shield

All you need now is like
DD grab / some Nair and you're like a Falcon pro miright

 

[Metal Reeper]

Wenbo, heright.

 

[Windrose]

yo let's talk about how to edge guard vs weird characters that have good horizontal recovery..


Let's start with...samus. I notice this discussion is already partly discussed in another thread in the falcon boards but i thought we'd bring it up here since this is the edge guarding thread right now.

Crush recommended Stomp to edge guard samus... (I wasn't sure if he was trolling when he said this...as he also recommended falcon punch lag cancel on bomb as an edge guard...)

 

[tarheeljks]

Yeah but at that point you might as well Bair IMO
Also in most matchups I feel like you'd rather just do some variant involving knee ...

Dittos / Ganon you just want to be killing them with knee so they can't recover and it's easy enough to knee their up-b as it starts that going for the knee is totally worth it

Vs spacies weak knee -> Uair covers a lot of illusion heights + Firefoxes above the ledge but loses to dropping down, which I don't think Uair covers all that well either ... the mixup to that is fake the knee and just jump back to the stage

Vs Marth / Sheik / characters with lots of up-b lag you just do big ledgehop attacks and they die

Vs most other people knee kills outright and is usually just as easy if not easier to land than tip Uair

It's not a terrible option (ledgehop reverse Uair if they're too high for Bair + option to regrab ledge) but if you're going offstage knee is just better in a lot of situations ... you have a super long / big hitbox to hit with and don't really require timing

Having Uair ledge regrab is decent but Bair regrab just beats it most times IMO

That's my take on edgeguarding with tipper Uair ... might have a niche in some matchups but you might as well be kneeing most of the time

Obviously I haven't covered anywhere close to everything but I think weak/strong knee >>> trying to tip them with a Uair

was only offering the uair from the ledge as a tool agains fox/falco for the most part, that being said, i feel like you are oversimplifying the ease of executing these other moves or overlooking how circumstantial they are. for example, despite the hitbox staying out for a while, bair from the ledge covers a pretty small area

also, the parts about knees killing are beside the point. obv if you can knee them out of your recovery you should do that. this is a tactic for when leaping off stage is too risky. and even then the point isn't that you can grab the ledge expecting that an uair will solve all your problems. it's just another tactic

 

[Wenbobular]

When is it too risky to jump off with a knee <_<
If you're thinking about like teams or something then you might as well be doing on stage uptilts rather than risk hanging on the ledge
If you're talking about singles going out with knee is usually like perfectly safe, the hitbox says in front of you forever and is massive

Ledgehop bair covers very similar options that uair does, cept you can start uair slightly earlier to catch illusions to the ledge but bair has way better comboability from a ledgehop and is quite a hit stronger / hits longer in the relevant area (behind you as opposed to in front <_<)

If we're talking about risk, ledgehopping is way riskier than a shorthop offstage I think

My point was that ledgehop Uair could not exist and Falcon would be perfectly because knee from the stage covers basically everything ledgehop reverse Uair does, but is easier and you have the option of going out further with DJ Uair AND you don't use your double jump doing it

I mean I even said that tipper Uair has a niche in some matchups but I'm not giving it any more than that ~_~

@Windrose
Characters with good horizontal recovery also tend to be real floaty, Uair / knee them to oblivion if you ever catch them doing something predictable (Uair is way safer, knee often just kills them outright or you get weak knee Uair)

Also always be on the lookout for laggy side-b moves ... Luigi and Pikachu are examples of characters with super laggy side-b moves that you can abuse with Falcon's super shorthop-across-half-of-Battlefield ability by just flying out there with a knee and killing them (every time Axe recovers doing these super bad side-b's I die a little inside because it's like watching a Luigi who can't even threaten to misfire =_=)

Even moves like pound can be punished if you call it, it's not nearly as bad as the moves I just mentioned but if you ever call them doing it toward the stage above ledge height you can almost always punish it

Just be more cavalier with reads when edgeguarding and don't be too afraid to jump out with knee because more often than not they can't get back before you

I actually have no idea how to cover M2's recovery but he's like a bad character so I'm not too worried

 

[Aussierob123]

It depend's, I've chased shieks and marths with knee's off stage and have missed only to get edgeguarded in return when they beat me back to the ledge. Maybe I just used it in the wrong situation though.

I pretty much never chase shieks anymore though lol, always just hold the ledge and wait for her to come back and **** her up with a dair or grab > knee, or just knee if she's at high enough percent / im confident enough to hit it (I miss kneeing grounded shieks alot because of her stupid animation lol.)