Data Falco Patch History

[Ffamran]

Is dtilt not faster?

Probably not. If it was any faster, it would be borderlining too good and broken like if Nair was frame 2 or 1, we'd have claims of a broken move and how the developers were being wacky to say the least. It's stronger than Ike's Dtilt when sweet-spotted, is a disjoint like Ike and Fox's Dtilt, and a quick, frame 7 move to boot.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Hasnt everyone?!

Is dtilt not faster?

True but Roy is my Melee low tier main and PM so having him in here and hitting like a truck is a nice change of pace.

 

[I Dair You]

Holy ****, fastfalling Falco's nair onto your opponent hit confirms into basically anything. I can consistently link FF nair to uptilt chains, to jab, to grab, to bair and to downsmash, and Ive occasionally been able to link FF nair to dtilt, to ftilt, to reflector, and to upsmash! Were looking at a completely viable character guys

 

[zanryo]

The only thing I absolutely dont like is the removal of up airs body hit box. Other than that, everything I do looks like it should be in a combo video.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

The only thing I absolutely dont like is the removal of up airs body hit box. Other than that, everything I do looks like it should be in a combo video.

I actually remember complaining about that hitbox because I'd get it when going for the kill, and now people want it back lol.

I think I'll have to open a discussion about Falco's aerials next.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Great to see Falco is finally getting some major playtime.
I haven't been playing much lately to try all these new combo strategies, but nonetheless this is awesome.

 

[EndlessRain]

Uair's lower KB is confirmed, right? Because I don't see it in the general patch notes thread.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Uair's lower KB is confirmed, right? Because I don't see it in the general patch notes thread.

Damage nerf = knockback reduction. That's the way the formulas work.

 

[Ffamran]

Damage nerf = knockback reduction. That's the way the formulas work.

It was just 1% though and Uair has a strong knockback growth which 1% shouldn't be affecting it much kind of like how Bair grows exponentially just purely by knockback growth. I think Uair's knockback growth was toned down along with the 1% decrease, but I'm not sure. We'll have to wait and even then, Dantarion's been busy so maybe the next patch will come and we'll still never know.

 

[A2ZOMG]

High kbg moves are the ones that are MOST affected by damage nerfs. I don't know how else to explain it. Knockback scaling is DIRECTLY tied to damage per hit. This is why Stale Moves works.

 

[Ffamran]

I know, but I think both knockback and damage were changed for Uair. As it stands, a Uair that does 10%, comes out at frame 7, has a base knockback of 27, and a knockback growth of 100 might be too much. The knockback growth might be toned down by 10 to 20 along with the 1% damage reduction. It might even just be Captain Falcon or ZSS's Uair frame data, but tweaked.

 

[Zionaze]

I really wish his dmg wasnt tweaked though. Strong aerials with combo potential and fast frames? Yes please.

 

[Ffamran]

I really wish his dmg wasnt tweaked though. Strong aerials with combo potential and fast frames? Yes please.

We have Bair for that.

 

[EndlessRain]

In terms of sheer damage output the difference is barely noticeable.
And @ A2ZOMG I was asking because I thought I saw someone mention a reduction in actual KB in addition to the damage decrease.

 

[Zionaze]

But wat if bair was uair and bair was fair and ayeeee

 

[Ffamran]

Is he doing it wrong or did the D-throw spike glitch on Captain Falcon get patched out? Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ufEx0a8s8.

 

[Zionaze]

Is he doing it wrong or did the D-throw spike glitch on Captain Falcon get patched out? Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ufEx0a8s8.

nope i literally just did it on FG like 3 seconds ago

 

[Attila_]

Had a few questions regarding our boy post patch.

1. What is the frame adv/disadv on FF nair (landing before the last hit)?

2. If I'm planning to mix up my opponent, is it better to jab cancel after jab1 or jab2? What is the frame difference between the two?

3. Does instant aerial phantasm actually have less lag than the grounded version?

Cheers

 

[A2ZOMG]

Had a few questions regarding our boy post patch.

1. What is the frame adv/disadv on FF nair (landing before the last hit)?

2. If I'm planning to mix up my opponent, is it better to jab cancel after jab1 or jab2? What is the frame difference between the two?

3. Does instant aerial phantasm actually have less lag than the grounded version?

Cheers

1. Depends very heavily on how you hit your opponent. It's usually negative on hit (punishable by Jabs so I guess -3 or so?), but sometimes if they end up a bit higher you can link into Jab. It's worth keeping in mind buffered SHFF N-air I believe frame cancels the final hit (which gives you a lot of frame advantage), so in neutral you don't have much reason to deliberately space the previous hits close to the ground.

2. Percent dependent. Jab 2 usually leaves your opponent a bit higher which gives you more frame adv (they can mash out actions, but depending on the situation you can punish this really hard).

3. Yes, making it better for combos.

 

[Attila_]

1. Depends very heavily on how you hit your opponent. It's usually negative on hit (punishable by Jabs so I guess -3 or so?), but sometimes if they end up a bit higher you can link into Jab. It's worth keeping in mind buffered SHFF N-air I believe frame cancels the final hit (which gives you a lot of frame advantage), so in neutral you don't have much reason to deliberately space the previous hits close to the ground.

2. Percent dependent. Jab 2 usually leaves your opponent a bit higher which gives you more frame adv (they can mash out actions, but depending on the situation you can punish this really hard).

3. Yes, making it better for combos.

Thanks mate.

I'd still like to see some frame data, if available. I like numbers.

 

[Ffamran]

Had a few questions regarding our boy post patch.

1. What is the frame adv/disadv on FF nair (landing before the last hit)?

2. If I'm planning to mix up my opponent, is it better to jab cancel after jab1 or jab2? What is the frame difference between the two?

3. Does instant aerial phantasm actually have less lag than the grounded version?

Cheers

1. There was a shield stun calculator made by the sixriver dudes in Japan, but I don't understand how to read frame advantages, so that's not helpful. The second is which hit are we talking about since Nair is made up of four parts, the first hit: 3%, second: 2%, third: 2%, and fourth: 4%. Each are slash elemental and each do regular hit lag.

http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/Guard_Hitstop.htm

Apparently sixriver has a shieldstun calculator now, which calculates attacker hitlag, shielder hitlag, and shielder shieldstun, and has formulae for finding these three things. It also calculates frame (dis)advantage for using a move on shield. I have no idea how accurate it is, but it seems to match up fairly well with what I've observed.

The supposed formulae are:

Attacker Hitlag
(Attack Base Damage ÷ 2.6 + 5) x Hitlag modifier x Element modifier [1.5 if electric, 1 otherwise]

Defender Hitlag
(Attack Base Damage ÷ 2.6 + 5)

Defender Shieldstun
Attack Base Damage ÷ 2.56

A translated calc example using usmash:

Remember to add 7 frames of advantage if they need to drop their shield to punish!

2. I don't know the IASA frames of jab 1 or 2, but the end lag frames for jab 1 is 22 and jab 2 is 25, but you have to consider that it happens after jab 1, so jab 2's end lag is actually 32 frames. I don't remember what frame you can transistion to jab 1 to jab 2, but you can find that in Thinkaman's data dump, http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8, in the Smash Academy sub-section of the Competitive Discussion, but it's kind of outdated as Falco's jab was changed in the patch, but Thinkaman has now idea what changed exactly other than various parameters had numerical changes.

3. Never been tested by how much, but it's probably enough where Falco and Fox don't have to go through the entire end lag of Falco Phantasm and Fox Illusion, but not like in Brawl where it was almost instant.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Anyone have a link to that shield stun calculator?

 

[Attila_]

The calculator isn't particularly helpful here; I'm not planning on FF a nair on someone's shield. Just want to know if we actually have advantage.

As a side note, our dsmash has invincibility?

 

[Ffamran]

So, I updated Falco's (and Ike's) moveset spreadsheet the best I could. @Thinkaman's "?" on certain things like Falco's Uair and Fair don't help. Regardless, the Falco frame data thread will be updated.

Falco
-----
Unknown parameters set to 63 and 15 on many of his hitboxes
Jab1
    hitbox 0 and 2 IDs swapped
    all hitboxes
        bkb 30 -> 35
    hitbox 0 (new)
        angle 80 -> 68
        size 2.0 -> 2.5
        z 0.0 -> -0.5
    hitbox 1
        angle 80 -> 77
        size 3.0 -> 3.2
Jab2
    hitbox 2
        angle 50 -> 45
        size 2.0 -> 5.0
        z 0.0 -> -0.5
    transition to jab3
        frame 10 -> 9
Rapid Jab Loop
    hitbox 0
        size 2.0 -> 2.7
    hitbox 1
        size 3.0 -> 3.2
Usmash
    ID and GID tweaks to hitboxes
    final hitboxes last frames 13-20 -> 12-21
Nair
    basically a different move; same timings, but all 16 of its hitboxes have been altered
        generally wkb increased and most angles set to 367 and sizes significantly increases
Fair
    animation speed 1.33x for frames 0-37 (9 frames faster total? hits 2 frames faster?)
    looping hitboxes
        refresh time 6 -> 4 (total looping hits 3 -> 5, or 7 -> 9 damage total)
Fair Landing
    hitbox
        damage 5 -> 3
        bkb 30 -> 50
Uair
    animation speed 1.5x for frames 0-8 (2 frames faster?)
    hitboxes appear on frame 10 -> 8 (4 frames faster total)
    all hitboxes
        damage 11 -> 10
        angle 68/68/80 -> 65/75/85
        kbg 100/100/20 -> 90/90/90
        bkb 27/27/30 -> 35/35/35
    hitbox 0
        size 4.8 -> 5.0
Dair
    initial hitbox bifurcated; hits grounded targets at angle 80
    sourspot replaces on frame 19 -> 20 (sweetspot duration 3 -> 4)
    sourspot hitbox
        size 5.0 -> 5.3

If I'm reading this right, is Falco's Fair frame 10 and Uair frame 8 then? When A2 tested it against Browser's jab and I think GimR too, they said it was frame 7.

Other notes:
They fixed Falco's Up Smash by increasing its knockback on the first two hitboxes and somehow, that works. You'd think you'd have to decrease knockback, but whatever.

Falco
-----
Usmash
    initial hitbox 0/1
        angle 140 -> 110
        kbg 20 -> 25
        bkb 30 -> 60
        can now hit grounded opponents
    initial hitbox 2
        can now hit aerial opponents

So, the confirmed changes were jab, Up Smash - both 1.0.6's and 1.0.8's changes -, Nair, Fair, and Dair. Remember this from a couple days ago? Stuff underlined are changes to the original post. Still wished the data dump by either Thinkaman or Dantarion was out and not as annoying to deal with like frame speed multipliers and such. Falco's Uair could potentially be frame 7.5 or some stupid number which would explain why a move 1 frame slower than Bowser's jab could beat it. For now, it's "officially" frame 8.

For now, this is what we have for patch 1.0.8; confirmed changes:
Jab
- Transitions to rapid jab quicker by 1 frame.

Neutral Air
- Nair does 11% total instead of 12%; second hit of Nair does 2%.
- Nair has autolink angles on the first 3 hits allowing it to combo better.

- This also lead to an issue where it'll cause a windbox effect - it's not a windbox - to try and connect the opponent with where Falco's going. Basically, a reverse Fox Fair spike.​

- Nair's final hit will always send the opponent where Falco is facing.

Up Air
- Uair does 10% instead of 11%.
- Uair has lower knockback growth, but higher base knockback; 90 KBG and 35 BKB.

- The combined decrease in damage and knockback means Falco's Uair is a weaker kill move, however, Falco can use Uair to juggle and combo much more easily now. Effectively, Falco traded a kill move or a strong damage per hit move for much higher damage per second.​

- Uair's startup is faster; from frame 10 to frame 8?
- Uair lost its sour-spot on Falco's body.

- While this sour-spot was strange, Falco lost his ability to cause his stun with this sour-spot and confirm a Bair, however, he can still use Uair's lower knockback to confirm a Bair.​

- The three hitboxes function like Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's Uair where they send people depending on where you hit instead the original 68 degree angle and the 80 degree angle on the sour-spot.

Forward Air
- Fair does 9% instead of 8%; Fair has another weak hit/loop hit of 1%.
- Fair's landing hit does 3% instead of 5%.
- Fair's startup is faster; from frame 12 to frame 10?
- Fair's weak hits hit faster; each hit refreshes 2 frames faster from 6 frames to 4 frames now.

Down Air
- Dair's initial spike hitbox no longer spikes grounded opponents, instead, it sends them up at an 80 degree angle.

- Basically, it's like aerial Falco Phantasm having "two, separate hitboxes" for different situations.
- This results in opponents no longer being able to tech his spike if they're hit while on the ground.
- This also results in Falco being unable to lock by frame canceling his Dair spike, but he can still lock with the late hit of Dair.​

Up Smash
- Fixed interaction on Battlefield's low platforms; second hit will confirm while first hit will whiff.

- This means Falco no longer will have to deal with a 4% Up Smash, precisely space Up Smash, or be forced to use Up Tilt below platforms.​

Still need confirmation or more information:
Forward Air
- Fair's landing lag while faster is still unknown by how fast.

Down Air
- Dair's landing lag while faster is still unknown by how fast.
Placebo changes:
Side Smash
- Hitbox changes.

As a side note, our dsmash has invincibility?

Nope, it's intangible meaning stuff passes through while it still has a hitbox. Falco and Fox's Down Smashes make their legs intangible. So long as their bodies don't get hit, their legs can basically challenge any move like Luigi's misfired Missile or Ness's PKT2.

Edit: Frame data's updated: http://smashboards.com/threads/ill-take-the-sky-any-day-falco-moveset-data-updated-on-6-20.387402/.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The calculator isn't particularly helpful here; I'm not planning on FF a nair on someone's shield. Just want to know if we actually have advantage.

As a side note, our dsmash has invincibility?

D-smash legs are intangible when the hitbox is out, as Ffamran mentioned. More importantly, the back hit has more range, meaning you should either turn around or Perfect Pivot when spacing this in most situations.

 

[RevolverTurtle]

Sup all! First post so be gentle, just getting into Smash so I'm kinda fresh on these things but..

Had a few questions regarding our boy post patch.

1. What is the frame adv/disadv on FF nair (landing before the last hit)?

Long time Tekken player here, the way we test frames in Tekken is to check which moves trade after hit.
It's a bit harder to do in Smash since knockback/hitstun alters based on damage, but since nair should have set KB until the last hit it might work either way (except the realigning stuff which might make it iffy.)

So FF nair, then spam Falco's jab against your opponent while they spam a frame 1 move. (If those even exist, again I'm new to Smash), frame 2 and so on until you trade. If you beat out the i1 and i2 move, you're at least +3, jab guaranteed. You then spam a move that's preferably i3 or i4 and so on. If it's negative, opponent spams gradually slower moves against Falco's jab until trade.
Aerials are tricky to analyze since you have to make the move connect exactly as you land for it to be perfect. But in this case you might want to make it hit as it would hit in a regular match for it to be more applicable and not mislead you.

But then again if you're only interested in seeing if you're at + frames or not you can just go to practice mode, play at 1/4 and make both hold shield after hit..

Falco's Uair could potentially be frame 7.5 or some stupid number which would explain why a move 1 frame slower than Bowser's jab could beat it. For now, it's "officially" frame 8.

A frame is the smallest unit of time according to a system, or a window of animation if you will, and can not be fractioned. At least I've never heard of it before and can't see how that would work. If it was indeed i7.5 the game would have to run/animate at 120fps. And we would have to say it was i15 instead.
Here's a video that helps explain frames. It uses Tekken as an example but it applies to all fighting games. Didn't mean to lecture on my first post... anyway hope it helps!

youtube.com/watch?v=npTvDOj1eWc

 

[Ffamran]

A frame is the smallest unit of time according to a system, or a window of animation if you will, and can not be fractioned. At least I've never heard of it before and can't see how that would work. If it was indeed i7.5 the game would have to run/animate at 120fps. And we would have to say it was i15 instead.
Here's a video that helps explain frames. It uses Tekken as an example but it applies to all fighting games. Didn't mean to lecture on my first post... anyway hope it helps!

youtube.com/watch?v=npTvDOj1eWc

I know, but there are moves that somehow come out with fractional frames for some stupid reason. I'm not sure about now, but Ike's Fair was frame 12.5 which people rounded up as 13 to make it easier. Diving into the game's data as Dantarion did sometimes lead to things like this for some characters and let's not mention how there are moves that do decimal damage too and don't show up in the game as everything is a whole number. Frame speed multipliers apparently exist in the game's coding and it's noticeable with customs and probably being used to alter certain move speeds for patches. I'm not a game developer, but is it that difficult to just change the hit frame? If custom A comes out 2 frames faster, then just set custom A to be 2 frames faster instead of putting a weird multiplier that for some numbers don't end up clean. Falco's Reflector customs are lucky to come out well with those, but Ike's normal moves like his jab 3 and Fair don't.

It's why I hope Thinkaman's data dump is cleaner or someone could test again with Falco's Uair and Fair startups. It'd be weird as hell if testing said Falco's Uair is frame 7, the data said it was frame 7.5, and for "practical" reasons, it's frame 8. Going off of Thinkaman's data dump, Ike's Dash Attack and Ftilt were all 1 frame faster than the Ike boards users' tests which yeah...

 

[RevolverTurtle]

I know, but there are moves that somehow come out with fractional frames for some stupid reason. I'm not sure about now, but Ike's Fair was frame 12.5 which people rounded up as 13 to make it easier. Diving into the game's data as Dantarion did sometimes lead to things like this for some characters and let's not mention how there are moves that do decimal damage too and don't show up in the game as everything is a whole number. Frame speed multipliers apparently exist in the game's coding and it's noticeable with customs and probably being used to alter certain move speeds for patches. I'm not a game developer, but is it that difficult to just change the hit frame? If custom A comes out 2 frames faster, then just set custom A to be 2 frames faster instead of putting a weird multiplier that for some numbers don't end up clean. Falco's Reflector customs are lucky to come out well with those, but Ike's normal moves like his jab 3 and Fair don't.

It's why I hope Thinkaman's data dump is cleaner or someone could test again with Falco's Uair and Fair startups. It'd be weird as hell if testing said Falco's Uair is frame 7, the data said it was frame 7.5, and for "practical" reasons, it's frame 8. Going off of Thinkaman's data dump, Ike's Dash Attack and Ftilt were all 1 frame faster than the Ike boards users' tests which yeah..

Hmm... I'm not a developer either but I still can't see how it would hit consistently at frame "7.5". The only way I could see this work is like with the damage fraction you mentioned and always rounding up and hitting on frame 8. Maybe it's a leftover from the patch if they're only using a speed multiplier instead of cutting frames in the animation and ending up with decimals (which I can see would be easier to do). Either way the only thing that matters is in practical situations and by testing it and perhaps we'll even end up with it hitting on frame 7 and if so then IMO, screw what the data dump says.
It would be awesome if we had anyone with a programmable stick help out with this, or anyone who's into TAS'ing, really.

 

[The 0ne]

Hey what's up everyone I have a question:

We're people always able to escape the upthrow laser? (Yes, they were I know) but only if they DI'd toward Falco? I just tested with a friend and he couldn't avoid the laser if he DI'd outward. Also the laser hitbox in general seems to be bigger.

 

[Zionaze]

I've only seen people escape the laser if they DI'd toward falco since I can slap in a Bair but never seen them escape the other way

 

[Ffamran]

The laser's hitbox is kind of weird. I had a replay where the laser was clearly parallel to ZSS, but it hit her during U-throw. I don't think there are changes and if there are, it might be a universal, stealth change to DI. Nobody's checked to see if Explosive Blaster's bolts affect the hitbox as far as I know.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Hello all. Finished checking Falco's frames for 1.08, here are the frame changes I found:

Can cancel from jab 2 into rapid 1 frame earlier (rapid starts on frame 10 of jab 2 in 1.06, frame 9 in 1.08)

F-air landing lag reduced, from 32 -> 25

2nd hit of U-smash hits one frame earlier: 14 -> 13

F-air start-up reduced, from 12 -> 10.

F-air hitboxes redistributed, from 12/18/24/30/35 -> 10/14/18/22/26/28.

F-air IASA moved back by 7 frames. (It's technically 9 but this is taking the start-up reduction into account)

F-air landing hitbox self hit-lag reduced by 1 frame, 13 -> 12

U-air's start-up was reduced, 10 -> 7

U-air's hit-lag and block-freeze reduced by 1 frame, 9 -> 8. Blockstun reduced by 1 frame, 5 -> 4.

Falco Phantasm start-up increased by 1 frame: 18 -> 19. Total frames remain the same.

Falco Phase (Side-B 2) IASA frames in the air moved back by 2 frames, 67 -> 65 (this one may have been an error on my part when originally recording 1.06 though)

As an aside, here's my frame data sheet for Falco. Includes advantage on block and stuff for his customs.

If I missed anything or you think I could add anything, let me know.

 

[Ffamran]

As an aside, here's my frame data sheet for Falco. Includes advantage on block and stuff for his customs.

Mind if I use this to patch up Falco's frame data thread with stuff like IASA and startup on some moves? Might do that for Ike too. I had to use this before for both Falco and Ike for certain moves: http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/Character_data.htm.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Mind if I use this to patch up Falco's frame data thread with stuff like IASA and startup on some moves? Might do that for Ike too. I had to use this before for both Falco and Ike for certain moves: http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/Character_data.htm.

Of course! Go right ahead. :3

 

[Ffamran]

Of course! Go right ahead. :3

If your data is correct, then Falco's Dair landing lag was either incorrect according to the Japanese frame data testers or Falco's Dair landing lag did get changed to 23 from 26. 23 is just 1 frame more than his Melee and Brawl Dair landing lag if I remember correctly.

 

[Attila_]

So if I'm reading the data correctly, jab1 is three frames safer than jab2 on jab cancel dtilt/grab mixups?

Also, any idea if hitbox durations will be added?

@ LordWilliam1234

 

[LordWilliam1234]

So if I'm reading the data correctly, jab1 is three frames safer than jab2 on jab cancel dtilt/grab mixups?

That is correct.

Also, any idea if hitbox durations will be added?

I can add in hitbox durations (may also add in damage at some point), just want to make sure all the data is updated properly with 1.08 (not just for Falco but for the rest of the cast) before I add anything more than what I have.

 

[Attila_]

That is correct.



I can add in hitbox durations (may also add in damage at some point), just want to make sure all the data is updated properly with 1.08 (not just for Falco but for the rest of the cast) before I add anything more than what I have.

I would also be curious about auto cancel timings!

 

[LordWilliam1234]

I would also be curious about auto cancel timings!

...that stuff I can't get. Same with the active frames. That will require the data dumps.

Hence my comment about making sure all the data is updated for 1.08.

@ Ffamran has this thread for Falco's frame data that includes stuff like the active frames. If all of that is updated to 1.08 I can add in the active frames to my sheet.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hello all. Finished checking Falco's frames for 1.08, here are the frame changes I found:

Can cancel from jab 2 into rapid 1 frame earlier (rapid starts on frame 10 of jab 2 in 1.06, frame 9 in 1.08)

F-air landing lag reduced, from 32 -> 25

2nd hit of U-smash hits one frame earlier: 14 -> 13

F-air start-up reduced, from 12 -> 10.

F-air hitboxes redistributed, from 12/18/24/30/35 -> 10/14/18/22/26/28.

F-air IASA moved back by 7 frames. (It's technically 9 but this is taking the start-up reduction into account)

F-air landing hitbox self hit-lag reduced by 1 frame, 13 -> 12

U-air's start-up was reduced, 10 -> 7

U-air's hit-lag and block-freeze reduced by 1 frame, 9 -> 8. Blockstun reduced by 1 frame, 5 -> 4.

Falco Phantasm start-up increased by 1 frame: 18 -> 19. Total frames remain the same.

Falco Phase (Side-B 2) IASA frames in the air moved back by 2 frames, 67 -> 65 (this one may have been an error on my part when originally recording 1.06 though)

As an aside, here's my frame data sheet for Falco. Includes advantage on block and stuff for his customs.

If I missed anything or you think I could add anything, let me know.

So I WAS correct that Falco's F-air had 25 frames landing lag.

Just for clarification, I compared animation lengths between F-air and rolling/spotdodges, using Training mode frame advance. At least this confirms I know how to properly time these types of tests when I have preexisting frame data to reference.

The main two things I haven't yet found a way to conclusively test without frame counting footage (I'd prefer to avoid doing this as I don't have 60fps recording options) are hitbox durations and ending lag.