Data Falco Patch History

[Superbat]

mfw when 5 other characters (Pit, Dark pit, Fox, Greninja Swordfighter) get their projectiles buffed but our lasers are still poop.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

So we should be on the lookout for potential autocancels? Other than that and minor animation changes though, what else is there?

Apart from the things I said, landing lag, IASA frames and startup frames aren't in the Data Dump. Marth got several buffs in those aspects and they cna't be seen there.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

If it's worth anything I found a reddit post where you can submit inquiries on characters for smash. Which I did for falco I received an email from an actual person from nintendo support who agreed and said he will submit it. Let's all try it I guess.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3fbcnj/if_youre_upset_about_the_new_update_or_even_just/

Just did this. Lets hope more people send Nintendo emails about Falco's issues so he can be improved.

 

[Ffamran]

Dantarion's data dumps now have total frames, end lag/FAF, and other stuff. I'm going to assume no changes, but I'll go through his data dump for Falco when I have time. Also, I don't know if this was possible pre-patch or since launch, but hit lag apparently interacts weirdly with aerials like Falco's Fair, Mr. G&W's Bair, etc. This might be an old, undiscovered until now thing or a new thing that basically means Falco theoretically never has to deal with landing lag if he connects his aerials "properly".

Can anyone tell me what the hell is going on here?

Here's a proof of Falco's Meteor acting late enough to auto-cancel ...It's weird and pointless lol.

Edit: I think he hit with the last frame of Fair's spike hitbox which happens at frame 19, but at the same time, the late hit at frame 20, lasts until frame 30. Falco's Dair also auto-cancels before frame 4 and after frame 38. The full animation lasts until frame 51, so he can't act until frame 52. Hmm... I wonder if hit lag is prolonging his air time and allowing it to "go through" the full animation. This also apparently happens with his Fair where of he connects the entire move and lands, he won't suffer landing lag.

 

[PaperMic]

Dantarion's data dumps now have total frames, end lag/FAF, and other stuff. I'm going to assume no changes, but I'll go through his data dump for Falco when I have time. Also, I don't know if this was possible pre-patch or since launch, but hit lag apparently interacts weirdly with aerials like Falco's Fair, Mr. G&W's Bair, etc. This might be an old, undiscovered until now thing or a new thing that basically means Falco theoretically never has to deal with landing lag if he connects his aerials "properly".

Well, I know it worked that way last patch, but I have know idea why it does this.
It's pretty hard to reproduce too (At least for me). You can see in the video that I didn't expect to get it first try.

 

[Ffamran]

Well, I know it worked that way last patch, but I have know idea why it does this.
It's pretty hard to reproduce too (At least for me). You can see in the video that I didn't expect to get it first try.

Edit: Never mind. I don't have my answer.

 

[SuperScope]

Anyone notice a difference in falcos up throw? I feel like before I was able to upthrow to uptilt but now they go to high up.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Anyone notice a difference in falcos up throw? I feel like before I was able to upthrow to uptilt but now they go to high up.

Upthrow to utilt? I don't know if that ever worked; I honestly never tried it. N-air and U-air would be better options, especially with Falco's improved n-air. I don't think there are any changes to Falco this patch, but I just moved so I have only played about 20 mins. since that patch came out.

 

[BltzZ]

Upthrow to utilt? I don't know if that ever worked; I honestly never tried it. N-air and U-air would be better options, especially with Falco's improved n-air. I don't think there are any changes to Falco this patch, but I just moved so I have only played about 20 mins. since that patch came out.

On fast fallers up throw to up tilt for me worked on fox and captain falcon etc. Falco needs to be between 0-10% and the opponent has to be at 0 I believe. I haven't tested it since the new patch came out because I'm traveling. But data dumps showed no changes with falco.

 

[SuperScope]

Falco needs to be between 0-10%.

Oh okay I did not know this part.

 

[Attila_]

Not falco specific, but does anyone know if quarter circle or half circle DI are in S4?

 

[Ffamran]

Not falco specific, but does anyone know if quarter circle or half circle DI are in S4?

I remember Lavani mentioning it, but I don't exactly remember if he was talking about SDI or DI while using quarter circle and half circle inputs. You could ask/check here: smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/.

Going to double post since unfortunately... *looks up* ... yeah... Anyway, patch 1.1.0 had some undiscovered changes that was recently found by @ LordWilliam1234 . It appears to be a universal change to how hit lag and shield stun interacts, so Falco's rapid jab finisher, second hit of Up Smash, Fair's last hit and landing hit, Falco Charge, and Distant Fire Bird all of which have hit lag modifiers above 1.0, should be a bit safer on shield. Confirmed characters are Roy, Marth, Ike, and Ryu. It starts here: http://smashboards.com/threads/tour...nity-patch-notes.412130/page-27#post-19986813.

Double post will be merged until someone posts or people get memo and I'll just merge it with my post above.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

I got the numbers for Falco.

Jab Ender: Self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 12 -> 9.

U-smash: Self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 12 -> 10.

N-air: Self shieldlag on the final hit reduced by 3 frames, 13 -> 10.

F-air: Self shieldlag on the final hit reduced by 3 frames, 16 -> 13. Self shieldlag on the landing hitbox reduced by 3 frames, 12 -> 9.

D-air: Self shieldlag on the sweetspot hit reduced by 4 frames, 20 -> 16.

Falco Charge (Side 3): Self Shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 14 -> 11.

Distant Fire Bird (Up 3): Self Shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 12 -> 9.

Note that Falco's f-smash on the late hit has a hitlag modifier too, but that one is less than 1.0. As with the other hitlag modifiers like that, it was not changed.

 

[Jpot]

Sorry, but what exactly is self shieldlag?

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Sorry, but what exactly is self shieldlag?

How long your character is frozen for when you strike an opponent's shield.

 

[Jpot]

I see. I wasn't aware this was a different value than the usual endlag of a move.

 

[Ffamran]

Gonna give this a heads up in case there are balance changes on September 30th; it will be stickied for visibility.

 

[BlueBirdE]

Patch is out. Any changes on the bird?

 

[Ffamran]

@Thinkaman dropped a data file comparison and no changes to Falco: http://smashboards.com/threads/magical-engimatic-land-1-1-1-patch-notes.419067/.

Not even to Burst Blaster to make it more than a shorter range, lower damage, slower rapid firing, and overall, an inferior version of Fox's default Blaster thanks to what they did to Fox's Blasters - notice the plural - in patch 1.1.0.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Another disappointing patch for Falco...
What a bummer. At least I got to read about it because where I am now the internet isn't strong enough for me to download it.

 

[Ffamran]

Another disappointing patch for Falco...
What a bummer. At least I got to read about it because where I am now the internet isn't strong enough for me to download it.

A universal change, but I think Falco's Dtilt just got more stupid thanks to the shield stun change: http://smashboards.com/threads/magical-engimatic-land-1-1-1-patch-notes.419067/page-9#post-20220175.

 

[IndigoAce]

Does this mean that bair is safe on shield now? Since it does 13% damage the shieldstun should be pretty high no?

 

[BlueBirdE]

A universal change, but I think Falco's Dtilt just got more stupid thanks to the shield stun change: http://smashboards.com/threads/magical-engimatic-land-1-1-1-patch-notes.419067/page-9#post-20220175.

Interesting read so far. I would think all of our moves are safer on shield now, by how much im not sure. Looking on page 12 it was mentioned that zss dsmash went from -3 to -7 on shield (Concluding that it could be due to removal of shield lag) so its not a guarantee all our moves are safer on shield.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

I can't understand the logic behind some of the changes and non-changes. Falco desperately needs something more.

 

[Thinktron]

Falcos Fair must be great on shield now right?

 

[NotAnAdmin]

A max spaced bair was already pretty safe, but now with this we probably won't get punished for miss spacing it.
I would also assume a perfectly spaced fair will be much harder to punish, now with the previous buffs to the landing lag.

Samurai finally nerfed the shields.

 

[M@v]

Shield stun is apparently based on % damage from what people are saying so far. Its still the first day though so yeah, I wouldn't take anything you hear at 100% confirmed.

 

[BlueBirdE]

A universal change, but I think Falco's Dtilt just got more stupid thanks to the shield stun change: http://smashboards.com/threads/magical-engimatic-land-1-1-1-patch-notes.419067/page-9#post-20220175.

Someone needs to test this. Falcos dtilt would have a significant amount of shield stun for a tilt

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I think spaced F-tilt is safe on shield now. Not 100% sure.
Not sure if the mechanical changes to shield buffed or nerfed Falco. His lackluster OOS options make me believe its the latter.

 

[IndigoSSB]

It's the first day and maybe I'm not used to it yet, but so far shield thing has felt like a nerf. After playing a few matches I can't help but feel that the shield was more important for us with our poor mobility (and I imagine it's the same with other slower characters). This might be compensated for if we find new ways to space and poke shields.

 

[Ffamran]

Does this mean that bair is safe on shield now? Since it does 13% damage the shieldstun should be pretty high no?

It was always safe on shield, especially if you auto-cancel it. The main issue is that its hit frame and perfect shielding's frame sync up both at frame 4. You can accidentally shield or shield early and end up perfect shielding his Bair because it's so fast. Compared to Fox's Bair where there's this delay from its slower startup, it's kind of stupid. The main draw is that it's almost instant while Fox's isn't. If you don't expect Falco's Bair, you're getting hit. Now, assuming people don't accidentally shield his Bair, then yeah, it's safer now.

Falcos Fair must be great on shield now right?

Frame syncing is still in which for whatever reason, allows Falco to sync his Fair's last hit and landing hit to negate or lower his landing lag. Lavani, Tuen, and Shaya all ended up talking about it along with other moves like it such as Pikachu, Falco, ZSS, Bowser Jr., and Ganondorf's Dair, and some other aerials with landing hits and different hit lag multipliers between the last hit and landing hit. Kind of starts around here: http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-45#post-20165880.

So, technically Falco's Fair has always been safe on-hit and on-shield probably after patch 1.0.8 when its hits were made faster - last hit comes out like 2 frames after the last looping hit and the landing hit always came out the moment Falco touches the ground. Now? Probably safer, but I don't know how much since neither the last or landing hits do a lot of damage assuming shield stun's being (re)calculated with that - still catching up on everything.

I can't understand the logic behind some of the changes and non-changes. Falco desperately needs something more.

The funny thing is that with patch 1.1.0 and 1.1.1, Falco was indirectly buffed and nerfed at the same time. In patch 1.1.0, he was always indirectly buffed due to universal changes such as the hit lag on-shield change probably targeted at Ryu whose hit lag on his moves were meant to emulate Street Fighter's feels, but had major impact on his on-shield game. Falco benefited because of his hit lag modifiers on rapid jab finisher, Up Smash, Side Smash, Nair's last hit, Fair's last hit, Dair's clean hit, and maybe something else I forgot. At the same time, the buffs to projectiles for Fox, Robin, Greninja, and the Pits indirectly nerfed him, especially with Fox's Blasters all losing total frames which more or less rendered his Burst Blaster completely inferior to Fox's default Blaster and made his default Blaster look even worse against all projectiles with Fox's Impact Blaster's slightly less range, but much less total frames being more useful than being able to fire continuously.

In patch 1.1.1, Falco was indirectly buffed because of the universal shield stun change which makes all of his and everyone else's moves stronger on-shield. For moves like Dtilt and Bair that were already safe on-shield, they're even safer and moves like jab, Ftilt, Up Smash, Side Smash, and Down Smash, they're safe and much more useful for shield pressuring like Ftilt. At the same time, the universal shield stun change does hurt him like it hurts all characters. Not a big deal. What's a big deal is that Falco didn't have any changes to his customs like Falco Charge which still sucks, Distant Fire Bird which is still an inferior Fire Fox with +10 more frames before launch, travels slower allowing him to be easily hit, and is laughably weak, Burst Blaster which was detailed above, or how Accele-Reflector's doubling of reflected projectile speeds don't really justify that it's much less safe on-hit and on-shield.

Come to think of it, Falco hasn't been touched since 1.0.8. Ike, Link, Zelda, Dr. Mario, Marth, Lucina, Kirby, and even Samus much to people's disbelief have been regularly tweaked. Falco's only major change was in patch 1.0.8 as 1.0.4 didn't really do much besides rework his Fair's landing hit and 1.0.6 kind of reworked his Up Smash which was "finalized" in patch 1.0.8.

Someone needs to test this. Falcos dtilt would have a significant amount of shield stun for a tilt

We could ask LordWilliam1234 . It's -5 at most on-shield after shield drop (7 frames). Probably around -7 now. Pre-patch 1.1.1, it was -10 on-shield after shield drop with the disjoint. If it was positive on-shield, then we have the dumbest Dtilt in fighting game history. Logically, a sweeping two-handed sword from Ike and an explosive blast from Samus should result in advantages on-shield not a tail swipe.

Edit: If there's one thing I wished they had at least done was change Falco's animation for Blaster. There is absolutely no logical reason why firing sideways means his Blaster has horizontal recoil. It should have vertical recoil like Fox's or any normal gun which ironically would mean his Blaster would have "sideways" recoil. The fact it clips through his beak doesn't help... They could just remove all the animation and have Falco's arm just jerk back for recoil. Hell, that's probably a cheaper alternative than animation his Blaster flipping up since it would just be moving his arm back and forth.

Edit 2: Edit Harder: There's this, but there's the issue of Smashville's slightly shorter in length than FD, right?

So here its not the full hit box as max range it missed but it definitely hits further from what I can tell pic.twitter.com/DtzHnZRJxb

— McDareth (@McDareth) September 30, 2015

Falco Phantasm's was this, but Thinkaman's data dump said nothing, but then again, I think this is just an issue with certain Specials.

Edit 3: With a Vengeance: Falco Phantasm's still the same. Still travels 10 blocks and only hits for the first 5.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

We could ask LordWilliam1234

I'm on it.

 

[Anragon]

God bless, falco's side-b now works properly... I waited too long for this.

 

[Ffamran]

God bless, falco's side-b now works properly... I waited too long for this.

Nope, I checked last night and it's still the same; it still hits only half its travel distance.

 

[Anragon]

Nope, I checked last night and it's still the same; it still hits only half its travel distance.

I'm playing it on the 3DS and it actually hits on all the phantasm's animation. It doesn't hit at the very end (which seems to be normal). Doesn't it on Wii U ?

 

[Ffamran]

I'm playing it on the 3DS and it actually hits on all the phantasm's animation. It doesn't hit at the very end (which seems to be normal). Doesn't it on Wii U ?

I only have the 3DS version and tested using omega Mushroomy Kingdom. It's still the same as this from the study I did months ago.

If you jump, you get like another block of hitbox distance, but it's still pretty bad when you remember that other moves like it still have a complete hitbox i.e. Fox Illusion, Quick Draw, Bouncing Fish, Peach Bomber, Falcon Kick, Wizard's Foot, etc. The least they could do would be to add a 2% hitbox at the end that doesn't spike or even have any knockback other than weighted knockback and only does damage. That would just make it safer without making people feel like Falco has this really long spike hitbox that still isn't reliable even if he can act out and not enter helpless mode.

Or they could reverse that with the 2%, set knockback hitbox and make it so Falco can only spike at the end meaning he really has to space out Falco Phantasm correctly to even attempt an unreliable spike.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Here's the numbers for Falco.

...blaster is just as unsafe as before, burst blaster is even more unsafe, and all of his reflectors are more unsafe too...great.

+1 vs shield drop b-air is nice though. And explosive blaster forces the opponent to shield all the hits so that's not too bad, and is more advantageous in general...though I dunno if anyone's gonna actually be put in a position to shield that anyway

 

[Ffamran]

Using LordWilliam1234 's data... First number is on-shield and second is after shield drop. Late hits of dash attack and Side Smash haven't been found nor has the second hits of Utilt and Up Smash since they shouldn't be worse on-shield... Both numbers of Utilt and Up Smash also match and since they both do 4%... Yeah... I'm going to say take those numbers with skepticism. Aerials I'm also assuming are all on landing without auto-canceling.

Note: It's 1.0.8 since I never reentered the numbers for rapid jab finisher, Up Smash's second hit, Fair, and Dair's clean hit that were affected by the hit lag and shield interactions in 1.1.0. Kind of doesn't really matter now, so whatever.

Spoiler: Falco on-shield comparison

Move|1.0.8|1.1.1|Difference
Jab 1|-19 / -12|-17 / -10| +2
Jab 2|-22 / -15|-19 / -12|+3
Rapid Jab Finisher|-39 / -32|-31 / -24|+8
Dash Attack|-28 / -21|-24 / -17|+4
Utilt (first hit-only)|-23 / -16|-27 / -20|-4?
Ftilt|-18 / -11|-14 / -7|+4
Dtilt (12% hit)| -16 / -9|-12 / -5|+4
Up Smash (first hit-only)|-36 / -31|-27 / -20|+9
Side Smash|-27 / -20|-21 / -14|+6
Down Smash|-34 / -27|-29 / -22|+5
Nair (Last Hit)|-14 / -7|-11 / -4|+3
Uair|-12 / -5|-8 / -1|+4
Fair (Landing)|-29 / -22|-14 / -7|+15
Bair|-10 / -3|-6 / +1|+4
Bair (Late)|-13 / -6|-9 / -2|+4
Dair|-28 / -21|-14 / -7|+7
Dair (Late)|-20 / -13|-20/ -13|0
Blaster|-40 / -33|-40 / -33|0
Reflector|-43 / -36|-41 / -34|+2

Questionable things aside from Utilt and Up Smash, Fair landing, Dair's late hit, Blaster, and Reflector. Fair landing gaining +15 seems kind of extreme, but it's still relatively unsafe on-shield and with frame syncing... yeah... The thing is that it only does 3% which shouldn't lead to such a massive gain even if its hit lag of 2.0x is now "normal" with the shielder if I understood the changes to shields correctly. Dair's late hit should have some change as well, but it's apparently 0? It does 8% which should be like a +3. Blaster and Reflector should have worse frame advantage due to the changes with how electric moves work on shields; it's a 0.5x to whatever hit lag modifier. In this case, Blaster would be 0.6x and Reflector would be 1.0x instead of 0.1x and 0.5x.

Edit: Apparently not for electric moves: http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-48#post-20233216.

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Too many numbers! Fixed? Up Smash. Utilt's still weird... Still don't know if either is the first or second hit. Up Smash might be the second hit, but Utilt since a 5% should be +2 instead of -4.

 

[Anragon]

I only have the 3DS version and tested using omega Mushroomy Kingdom. It's still the same as this from the study I did months ago.

If you jump, you get like another block of hitbox distance, but it's still pretty bad when you remember that other moves like it still have a complete hitbox i.e. Fox Illusion, Quick Draw, Bouncing Fish, Peach Bomber, Falcon Kick, Wizard's Foot, etc. The least they could do would be to add a 2% hitbox at the end that doesn't spike or even have any knockback other than weighted knockback and only does damage. That would just make it safer without making people feel like Falco has this really long spike hitbox that still isn't reliable even if he can act out and not enter helpless mode.

Or they could reverse that with the 2%, set knockback hitbox and make it so Falco can only spike at the end meaning he really has to space out Falco Phantasm correctly to even attempt an unreliable spike.

I always use aerial side-b. But yeah it's nothing compared to the Brawl side-b we had... rip

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Using LordWilliam1234 's data... First number is on-shield and second is after shield drop. Late hits of dash attack and Side Smash haven't been found nor has the second hits of Utilt and Up Smash since they shouldn't be worse on-shield... Both numbers of Utilt and Up Smash also match and since they both do 4%... Yeah... I'm going to say take those numbers with skepticism. Aerials I'm also assuming are all on landing without auto-canceling.

Note: It's 1.0.8 since I never reentered the numbers for rapid jab finisher, Up Smash's second hit, Fair, and Dair's clean hit that were affected by the hit lag and shield interactions in 1.1.0. Kind of doesn't really matter now, so whatever.

Spoiler: Falco on-shield comparison

Move|1.0.8|1.1.1|Difference
Jab 1|-19 / -12|-17 / -10| +2
Jab 2|-22 / -15|-19 / -12|+3
Rapid Jab Finisher|-39 / -32|-31 / -24|+8
Dash Attack|-28 / -21|-24 / -17|+4
Utilt (first hit-only)|-23 / -16|-27 / -20|-4?
Ftilt|-18 / -11|-14 / -7|+4
Dtilt (12% hit)| -16 / -9|-12 / -5|+4
Up Smash (first hit-only)|-36 / -31|-27 / -20|+9
Side Smash|-27 / -20|-21 / -14|+6
Down Smash|-34 / -27|-29 / -22|+5
Nair (Last Hit)|-14 / -7|-11 / -4|+3
Uair|-12 / -5|-8 / -1|+4
Fair (Landing)|-29 / -22|-14 / -7|+15
Bair|-10 / -3|-6 / +1|+4
Bair (Late)|-13 / -6|-9 / -2|+4
Dair|-28 / -21|-14 / -7|+7
Dair (Late)|-20 / -13|-20/ -13|0
Blaster|-40 / -33|-40 / -33|0
Reflector|-43 / -36|-41 / -34|+2

Questionable things aside from Utilt and Up Smash, Fair landing, Dair's late hit, Blaster, and Reflector. Fair landing gaining +15 seems kind of extreme, but it's still relatively unsafe on-shield and with frame syncing... yeah... The thing is that it only does 3% which shouldn't lead to such a massive gain even if its hit lag of 2.0x is now "normal" with the shielder if I understood the changes to shields correctly. Dair's late hit should have some change as well, but it's apparently 0? It does 8% which should be like a +3. Blaster and Reflector should have worse frame advantage due to the changes with how electric moves work on shields; it's a 0.5x to whatever hit lag modifier. In this case, Blaster would be 0.6x and Reflector would be 1.0x instead of 0.1x and 0.5x.

Edit: Apparently not for electric moves: http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-48#post-20233216.

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Too many numbers! Fixed? Up Smash. Utilt's still weird... Still don't know if either is the first or second hit. Up Smash might be the second hit, but Utilt since a 5% should be +2 instead of -4.

On U-tilt: That was only for the first hit. I couldn't get u-tilt to hit shield on the second hit when I was testing initially (I use Wii Fit Trainer in all my testing), so the shield advantage is only for the first hit. I've fixed that now though; shieldlag and shieldstun is the same as the first hit, frame advantage is -13/-20.

Also updated the sheet with the frame advantage for the late hit dash attack; I had the shieldlag and shieldstun values for it (as mentioned, that's what the second shieldlag/shieldstun values were), I just didn't have what frame the weak hitboxes appear on. The frame advantage for a late hit of f-smash is the same as the strong hit though (in 1.10, it would also have been -14/-21, due to the hitlag differences, so only the strong hit is safer this patch).

Also fixed the frame advantage on weak d-air, I got the shieldstun but forgot to update the shield advantage accordingly. Also added in the frame advantage for tipper d-tilt (didn't know it had a tipper). Everything should be correct now.