Data Falco Patch History

[Ffamran]

On U-tilt: That was only for the first hit. I couldn't get u-tilt to hit shield on the second hit when I was testing initially (I use Wii Fit Trainer in all my testing), so the shield advantage is only for the first hit. I've fixed that now though; shieldlag and shieldstun is the same as the first hit, frame advantage is -13/-20.

Also updated the sheet with the frame advantage for the late hit dash attack; I had the shieldlag and shieldstun values for it (as mentioned, that's what the second shieldlag/shieldstun values were), I just didn't have what frame the weak hitboxes appear on. The frame advantage for a late hit of f-smash is the same as the strong hit though (in 1.10, it would also have been -14/-21, due to the hitlag differences, so only the strong hit is safer this patch).

Also fixed the frame advantage on weak d-air, I got the shieldstun but forgot to update the shield advantage accordingly. Also added in the frame advantage for tipper d-tilt (didn't know it had a tipper). Everything should be correct now.

Cool, that solves pretty much everything. Dtilt has 3 hitboxes -- it's been this way since Melee. 9% is a disjoint, 11% is the further half of his tail, and the 12% is pretty much the half that's closest to his body. Think of it like a Roy Side Smash. Before this patch, the 9% and 11% had the same shield stun and on-shield advantages while the 12% had +1 to that. I'm going to assume this is still the same.

 

[BlueBirdE]

Im curious what do you guys think falco needs? Without going the auto cancel lasers route im thinking
faster ground speed
safe on shield nair
faster grab
1 frame less on jump squat
slightly faster lasers and dair
full side b hitbox
Maybe act faster out of dthrow or a slightly stronger uair

 

[Snipnigth]

Must: Faster recovery on lasers is a must and it would be nice to have a faster recovery on the one, two jab or at least with a longer hitstun because rigth now some characters like peach, ness, luigi, jiggly, a lot of them can simply just DI up and jump and they are out and able to punish your jab combo, jabs are really unsafe in some matchups witch I think its kinda stupid...

Would be nice: Faster Dair or a longer duration on the sweetspot would be nice, full side B hitbox its also good but I dont think i will ever happen, he has been like that since melee, but faster startup or some invulnerability frames at the start or in the middle of it would be nice.

 

[BlueBirdE]

I agree on the jab. If you don't preemptively hit the move deep they can easily jump out. Characters like peach can hit a fair and luigi a nair. When you say longer duration on hitbox you mean the sour or sweetspot?

 

[BulkyJam]

All I can say about patches changing Falco so far is thank god for the patch that made his aerials properly connect (1.1.0 I believe)

Before that, playing Falco was roughhhhhhhh

Newcomer to the Falco scene btw, willing to learn stuff

 

[Snipnigth]

When you say longer duration on hitbox you mean the sour or sweetspot?

if your asking about the dair, i was talking about the sweetspot, the one that deals 13% and spikes, i remember that in melee, the sweetspot lasted longer, would be nice to have that in Sm4sh.

 

[BlueBirdE]

Longer sweetspot hitbox would be great. I was also thinking about a longer lingering sourspot hitbox. If you notice when we full jump dair and fast fall asap. The hit box doesnt connect by a split second. It would be interesting to have an option like that to full hop ff dair and cancel before we hit the ground

 

[Snipnigth]

Longer sweetspot hitbox would be great. I was also thinking about a longer lingering sourspot hitbox. If you notice when we full jump dair and fast fall asap. The hit box doesnt connect by a split second. It would be interesting to have an option like that to full hop ff dair and cancel before we hit the ground

we kinda do have that option but only vs tall characters like falcon and samus

 

[NotAnAdmin]

All I can say about patches changing Falco so far is thank god for the patch that made his aerials properly connect (1.1.0 I believe)

Before that, playing Falco was roughhhhhhhh

Newcomer to the Falco scene btw, willing to learn stuff

Man, rough is an understatement. Nair was downright useless.
Welcome to the Lombardi boards though!

 

[ILOVESMASH]

IMO Falco needs buffs to his subpar neutral and disadvantage states to become usable in competitive play. Here are some things I would like to see buffed:

• Fair: Shave off 10 frames of landing lag.
• Jab: Decrease endlag and startup for rapid jab.
• Fire Bird: Make the move connect better, like fox's Up B 3. Increase the hitbox size and Knock Back.
• Laser: Decrease endlag by 10 frames.
• Phantasm: Decrease startup.
• F-Smash: Decrease startup.
• Dair: Make the sourspot hitbox a weak spike, like Kirby's dair.

 

[Anragon]

IMO Falco needs buffs to his subpar neutral and disadvantage states to become usable in competitive play. Here are some things I would like to see buffed:

• Fair: Shave off 10 frames of landing lag.
• Jab: Decrease endlag and startup for rapid jab.
• Fire Bird: Make the move connect better, like fox's Up B 3. Increase the hitbox size and Knock Back.
• Laser: Decrease endlag by 10 frames.
• Phantasm: Decrease startup.
• F-Smash: Decrease startup.
• Dair: Make the sourspot hitbox a weak spike, like Kirby's dair.

Most of those buffs makes sense. But i don't see Fsmash, Firebird and D-air getting those changes though.

The REAL priority is to decrease the endlag on Jab 1 and 2 (so they would finally be reliable and safe poke moves to throw in the neutral).
Also, give a complete hitbox to Side-b like Fox.

 

[Ffamran]

Heads up,everyone: http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-3-patch-notes-release-pending.425921/.

Falco's apparently 50% analyzed and there's no changes... Of all the changes, at least make it so his jab doesn't freaking murder himself against anyone with a frame ~8 and below move. Gets real stupid when you get Luigi or Yoshi Naired, Jigglypuff Rested, and Ryu Shoryuken'd and they all kill. Doesn't seem to be so, but I don't know if they've got to state transitions for jabs and they did note they might not have info on total frame changes, so who knows, we might get a measly 1 frame off Dair's total frames... >_>

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Heads up,everyone: http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-3-patch-notes-release-pending.425921/.

Falco's apparently 50% analyzed and there's no changes... Of all the changes, at least make it so his jab doesn't freaking murder himself against anyone with a frame ~8 and below move. Gets real stupid when you get Luigi or Yoshi Naired, Jigglypuff Rested, and Ryu Shoryuken'd and they all kill. Doesn't seem to be so, but I don't know if they've got to state transitions for jabs and they did note they might not have info on total frame changes, so who knows, we might get a measly 1 frame off Dair's total frames... >_>

I just want his blaster to be better. There's a possibility that he could have gotten an endlag reduction on it but going by the past several patches I seriously doubt it.

I mean, they buff Fox's laser and not Falco's...doesn't make any sense to me.

Anyways, I'll be going through the cast once the patch drops. I'll be going through Cloud, Link, Ryu, and Palutena first, and I'll go through Falco after that and let you know what I find.

 

[Snipnigth]

I just want his blaster to be better. There's a possibility that he could have gotten an endlag reduction on it but going by the past several patches I seriously doubt it.

I mean, they buff Fox's laser and not Falco's...doesn't make any sense to me.

Anyways, I'll be going through the cast once the patch drops. I'll be going through Cloud, Link, Ryu, and Palutena first, and I'll go through Falco after that and let you know what I find.

Some ppl argue that since fox laser have no hitstun he needed that enlagg reduced but, **** men, even on hit Falcos lasers are fairly easy to punish.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Some ppl argue that since fox laser have no hitstun he needed that enlagg reduced but, **** men, even on hit Falcos lasers are fairly easy to punish.

I could sort of understand that reasoning, except they also reduced the endlag of Fox's custom laser. Which is basically Falco's without rapid fire. And is 200% better.

 

[Ffamran]

I just want his blaster to be better. There's a possibility that he could have gotten an endlag reduction on it but going by the past several patches I seriously doubt it.

I mean, they buff Fox's laser and not Falco's...doesn't make any sense to me.

Anyways, I'll be going through the cast once the patch drops. I'll be going through Cloud, Link, Ryu, and Palutena first, and I'll go through Falco after that and let you know what I find.

They buffed pretty much all projectiles in the game outside of ones that functioned well like Mewtwo's Shadow Ball, Samus's Charge Shot, Yoshi's Egg Toss, Link's Hero's Bow, and even Mario's Fireball which does have slightly bad recovery frames, but the descending nature of it and higher, not fixed knockback and hit stun makes up for it. Other projectiles just got better like Fox, the Pits, Robin, and even Zelda's. Some were toned down like Luigi and Sheik's, but remain strong tools.

Falco's Blaster only had one "buff" where it supposedly fires faster in 1.0.4. To this day and I've said this countless times, I don't even know what that means since there weren't any side-by-side comparisons for that. Set knockback while having at the lowest 41 in the air and the highest 48 on the ground for recovery frames is really bad. You could make it so Falco's recovery frames on the ground were 41 and following the 7 frame gap pattern, 34 in the air, and I think that would be "perfect" after watching players pull off dumb setups like Nairo did to Mr. E... What was it again? Falco Phantasm to launch, Blaster to stun, and Reflector for a finisher. I think there might have been a Uair after Phantasm, but dude, that kind of dumb stringing doesn't exist with other characters.

Speaking of which, since Specials are weird for raw data, first thing to check would be Falco Phantasm's hitbox.

I could sort of understand that reasoning, except they also reduced the endlag of Fox's custom laser. Which is basically Falco's without rapid fire. And is 200% better.

Default Fox's does more damage overall, has more range, and maybe larger hitboxes? all while, after patch 1.1.0, having the same recovery frames as Falco's Burst Blaster. Customs might not be the main thing in Smash, but having a custom that's basically an inferior version of another character's is just stupid. Hell, make it so Falco fires three quick bolts in one button press - it's a "Burst" Blaster...

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I believe falco's Up smash received a nice buff. The first hit spikes, allowing it to combo into the second hit better. This might need more testing.

Edit: Ignore this post.

 

[BlueBirdE]

Is the patch data completely analyzed? I have so many placebos right now and its all from hope that atleast something was improved

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Checked through Falco's frames and I didn't find anything. I did find what seems to be that Falco's blaster had its shieldstun reduced by 3 frames, and reflector's shieldstun was increased by 1...but I'm not sure if that was a real change or I screwed up somehow when I originally recorded Falco for 1.12. Having a friend help me out on double checking the latter case.

EDIT: It was indeed an error on my part, Falco's blaster was 4 frames of shieldstun in 1.12 and reflector was 5 frames of shieldstun in 1.12. So he got nothing this patch.

 

[Ffamran]

1.1.4 has affected Falco. Observations started here. Click the little arrow above quoted posts to go to the thread it was originally posted in.

Something that frame data won't be able to tell like it did for Falco's Up Smash, Greninja's Up Smash still does not interact properly with platforms on 3DS version of Battlefield. Would like someone else with a Wii U to follow up on this as it's strange how Falco's Up Smash was changed in 1.0.8 to only hit with the second hit on Battlefield's lower platforms, but not Greninja's. Consequently, Greninja is left with a frame 12 Up Smash that only does 5%.

Something else that frame data will debunk or prove: Falco's Up Smash may have gotten a slight increase to its knockback. Here's the problem: hazy memory and I used Pit to test Falco's KO percents way back. For the record, I still have the old percents and a full connection from Falco's Up Smash killed Pit at 130% on omega Wily Castle. Note: the KO percent is the lowest percent when the red sparks appear marking it as a kill move. Today's check? 121%. As a two-hit move, the final hit is what matters for the kill and I have that too. The old data says 138% while today, it's 129%. Like I said, the problem is that I don't really remember and since I tested on Pit... yeah...

Actually, I just checked... damn Crashboards... @kenniky found KO percents for Falco before with Mario on the 3DS: http://smashboards.com/threads/kill-percents-on-all-relevant-moves.407089/. kenniky's data for 1.0.8 said that Falco's Up Smash kills at 132% with both hits; today, 1.1.4, it kills at 122%. The last hit was said to kill at 136%; today, 1.1.4, it kills at 130%.

TL;DR: Greninja's Up Smash still doesn't interact with Battlefield's lower platform and Falco's Up Smash knockback increase if confirmed, means Falco's (fully connected) Up Smash ties as his 2nd strongest raw kill move with Bair. If not, then it was always this powerful, but something screwed up... or nobody bothered to check 1.1.0 and onward which frame data would be against... >_>

Also, Little Mac's Smashes might be doing more damage... Angled up (uppercut) and straight (straight or cross) do 20% (fist) and 18% (arm) instead of 19% and 17% and angled down (body hook) is doing 24% instead of 22%; Up Smash is doing 21% sweet and 16%, and Down Smash is doing 13%.

And confirmed as Falco being affected by the patch here. This means other changes were not known or proven, but he was affected.

This wouldn't include possible end lag or base stat (mobility) changes, but a good basis to believe in at this time!

Captain, Falco, Ike, Kirby, Bowser + Jr, Little Mac, Charizard, Lucina, Marth, Dark Pit, Roy, Sheik, ZSS, Toon Link and Zelda have changes.

— Shiny Quagsire (@ShinyQuagsire) February 4, 2016

 

[McDareth]

What I've noticed so far that is different on Falco from this patch.

I can confirm that it not longer works on Falcon on any stage. It also no longer works on Samus, ZSS, Ganondorf, and Link on Battlefield and Smashville type ledges -.-"

A Falco buff this time: Up Smash kills around 15% earlier (killed Fox on FD at 101% in the current patch and it wouldn't kill Fox till 115% on my 3DS which is on patch 1.0.4 [yeah it's awhile ago but the KB on his Up Smash didn't really change besides making the first link into the second properly])

His Up Smash also now hits opponents who are laying on the ground (again tested on Fox in this patch vs. Fox in patch 1.0.4) it even hits Kirby and Game and Watch while they are crouching.

 

[Float SSB]

admittedly I haven't been playing Falco much lately but I think he runs faster now. I will have to compare to my 3DS later.

 

[BltzZ]

admittedly I haven't been playing Falco much lately but I think he runs faster now. I will have to compare to my 3DS later.

Please do :D

 

[Metamoonstar]

How long does it usually take before we have all of the patch details?

Im thirsty to know how our bird is doing this patch around.

 

[Anragon]

Apart from the (great) Up-smash buff, I didn't notice anything different in this patch.

Side-b hitbox is the same and Jab 1/Jab 2 have the same ending lag as before.

 

[Mellos]

What I've noticed so far that is different on Falco from this patch.

Have you taken into account that the 3DS version hasn´t the same blastzones? I would love some Upsmash buffs, but pls, missinformation doesn´t help anyone :/

 

[NarayanK]

Falco runs faster now.

 

[McDareth]

Have you taken into account that the 3DS version hasn´t the same blastzones? I would love some Upsmash buffs, but pls, missinformation doesn´t help anyone :/

I only have a 3DS to test it on and it hasn't been updated since the Wii U version came out. But I also did a test on Duck Hunt on the Wii U and Fox dies at 102% and had a friend test on their 1.1.2 3DS also on Duck Hunt (I know Dream Land has the same blastzones between them so I'm hoping Duck Hunt does as well) and he found that Fox was dying to Up Smash around 114%.

 

[Mellos]

I only have a 3DS to test it on and it hasn't been updated since the Wii U version came out. But I also did a test on Duck Hunt on the Wii U and Fox dies at 102% and had a friend test on their 1.1.2 3DS also on Duck Hunt (I know Dream Land has the same blastzones between them so I'm hoping Duck Hunt does as well) and he found that Fox was dying to Up Smash around 114%.

Alright, thats great! I really wished to be able to kill with UpSmash :3 Finally, some serious buffs! Thats what, like 12% earlier? :D

 

[McDareth]

Alright, thats great! I really wished to be able to kill with UpSmash :3 Finally, some serious buffs! Thats what, like 12% earlier? :D

Not only does it kill earlier but it also now hits opponents who are prone on the ground or characters with low profile crouches.

 

[Andyomon00]

Falco runs faster now.

Is this actually confirmed

 

[NarayanK]

Is this actually confirmed

Ye. Falco's run animation isn't uber duber faster, but it's still noticeably faster than before. You can tell by the amount of steps he takes and the speed boost he has.

 

[Tankendog]

Can someone test D-air?

I am at work sorry, or I would help out.

 

[McDareth]

Can someone test D-air?

I am at work sorry, or I would help out.

I didn't go heavily into it as I was mostly comparing the percents for all his moves, but Dair seemed the same to me unless it got a KB or slight frame data change that I didn't notice.

 

[Tankendog]

I didn't go heavily into it as I was mostly comparing the percents for all his moves, but Dair seemed the same to me unless it got a KB or slight frame data change that I didn't notice.

I think the thigs to be looked at on It would be frame data, spike hitbox, ending lag. I imagine it is the same damage, but admittedly its been a while since I used it as a viable option to really be able to slot a Noticeable buff.

 

[McDareth]

His damage wasn't changed on any normal, tilt, aerial, or Smash in this patch. (I forgot to record 1.1.3 special damage so I can't say for those)

 

[Ffamran]

I only have a 3DS to test it on and it hasn't been updated since the Wii U version came out. But I also did a test on Duck Hunt on the Wii U and Fox dies at 102% and had a friend test on their 1.1.2 3DS also on Duck Hunt (I know Dream Land has the same blastzones between them so I'm hoping Duck Hunt does as well) and he found that Fox was dying to Up Smash around 114%.

Meanwhile, earlier...

Something that frame data won't be able to tell like it did for Falco's Up Smash, Greninja's Up Smash still does not interact properly with platforms on 3DS version of Battlefield. Would like someone else with a Wii U to follow up on this as it's strange how Falco's Up Smash was changed in 1.0.8 to only hit with the second hit on Battlefield's lower platforms, but not Greninja's. Consequently, Greninja is left with a frame 12 Up Smash that only does 5%.

Something else that frame data will debunk or prove: Falco's Up Smash may have gotten a slight increase to its knockback. Here's the problem: hazy memory and I used Pit to test Falco's KO percents way back. For the record, I still have the old percents and a full connection from Falco's Up Smash killed Pit at 130% on omega Wily Castle. Note: the KO percent is the lowest percent when the red sparks appear marking it as a kill move. Today's check? 121%. As a two-hit move, the final hit is what matters for the kill and I have that too. The old data says 138% while today, it's 129%. Like I said, the problem is that I don't really remember and since I tested on Pit... yeah...

Actually, I just checked... damn Crashboards... @kenniky found KO percents for Falco before with Mario on the 3DS: http://smashboards.com/threads/kill-percents-on-all-relevant-moves.407089/. kenniky's data for 1.0.8 said that Falco's Up Smash kills at 132% with both hits; today, 1.1.4, it kills at 122%. The last hit was said to kill at 136%; today, 1.1.4, it kills at 130%.

TL;DR: Greninja's Up Smash still doesn't interact with Battlefield's lower platform and Falco's Up Smash knockback increase if confirmed, means Falco's (fully connected) Up Smash ties as his 2nd strongest raw kill move with Bair. If not, then it was always this powerful, but something screwed up... or nobody bothered to check 1.1.0 and onward which frame data would be against... >_>

Also, Little Mac's Smashes might be doing more damage... Angled up (uppercut) and straight (straight or cross) do 20% (fist) and 18% (arm) instead of 19% and 17% and angled down (body hook) is doing 24% instead of 22%; Up Smash is doing 21% sweet and 16%, and Down Smash is doing 13%.

All my work goes unappreciated and unread... ;_;

Not only does it kill earlier but it also now hits opponents who are prone on the ground or characters with low profile crouches.

In all seriousness, could you or someone else check if Up Smash hits Luigi during his Super Jump Punch landing lag or say, Wii Fit Trainer's crouch? A screenshot would be nice for evidence. There's a post lying around somewhere in these boards with Falco's Up Smash whiffing on Luigi's SJP landing and on the WFT boards, there was a study of moves that couldn't hit her while she was crouching. Could use those as evidence that Falco's Up Smash has a hitbox change or against it if it doesn't.

Falco runs faster now.

No, he doesn't and even if he does, nobody tested it correctly and provided evidence, a gif or a video showing it. Do you see Falco running as fast as Ike? Mario? Or Wii Fit Trainer? No. That clip shows absolutely nothing. For all we know, Falco's run animation was sped up and that's it. Or it's just a placebo because people are expecting anything Kirby, Lucario, and Mewtwo mobility change. It's evidence or It's just a placebo and there's evidence against Falco's speed buff.

Unless everyone I tested has been changed, Falco's run speed appears to be unchanged in any noticeable way.

Falco (1.472) still runs slower than Ike, Luigi and Lucas (1.5) and is basically identical to Olimar (1.47).

Even Keitaro said that video proved nothing.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[NarayanK]

Meanwhile, earlier...

All my work goes unappreciated and unread... ;_;


In all seriousness, could you or someone else check if Up Smash hits Luigi during his Super Jump Punch landing lag or say, Wii Fit Trainer's crouch? A screenshot would be nice for evidence. There's a post lying around somewhere in these boards with Falco's Up Smash whiffing on Luigi's SJP landing and on the WFT boards, there was a study of moves that couldn't hit her while she was crouching. Could use those as evidence that Falco's Up Smash has a hitbox change or against it if it doesn't.


No, he doesn't and even if he does, nobody tested it correctly and provided evidence, a gif or a video showing it. Do you see Falco running as fast as Ike? Mario? Or Wii Fit Trainer? No. That clip shows absolutely nothing. For all we know, Falco's run animation was sped up and that's it. Or it's just a placebo because people are expecting anything Kirby, Lucario, and Mewtwo mobility change. It's evidence or It's just a placebo and there's evidence against Falco's speed buff.


Even Keitaro said that video proved nothing.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

That's strange. People there seemed to agree with the speed change, but I guess I'm wrong. (Then again I'm a Mac main just looking into Falco for a friend, so I didn't expect myself to be 100% right)

Here's hoping that people find out how different he is this patch!

 

[McDareth]

Meanwhile, earlier...

All my work goes unappreciated and unread... ;_;


In all seriousness, could you or someone else check if Up Smash hits Luigi during his Super Jump Punch landing lag or say, Wii Fit Trainer's crouch? A screenshot would be nice for evidence. There's a post lying around somewhere in these boards with Falco's Up Smash whiffing on Luigi's SJP landing and on the WFT boards, there was a study of moves that couldn't hit her while she was crouching. Could use those as evidence that Falco's Up Smash has a hitbox change or against it if it doesn't.

Oh sorry I didn't realize that your post talked about it as I thought it was comparing Falco and Greninja Up Smashes D:

I tested his Up Smash against G&W and Kirby while they crouch (not sure if they are the same hitbox size as Wii Fit) and it now hits them. I also compared it to 1.0.4 Falco Up Smash on Fox who misses a tech and is prone. It misses him in 1.0.4 but hits in 1.1.4

 

[Mellos]

Falcos run speed: Unchanged!
He and Olimar are the same speed.
Falco is still slower than Ike. Same as before 1.1.4
Edit: Somebody said his (walking?) animation was improved, but thats just... optical??