Falco Matchup #7: Bowser

[Cassius.]

I'm talking about Falco being able to phantasm through Bowser's upB during the COOLDOWN of it if Bowser whiffs the upB.

normally the two hits would trade if Falco phantasm'd through Bowser's fortress mid-move.

 

[Zigsta]

Also remember that whole laser>grab being safe on block thing GIMR showed in Metagame Minute doesn't work on Bowser because of our up B.

 

[teluoborg]

I'm talking about Falco being able to phantasm through Bowser's upB during the COOLDOWN of it if Bowser whiffs the upB.

normally the two hits would trade if Falco phantasm'd through Bowser's fortress mid-move.

Oh ok. I find it hard to whiff with fortress but your point stands nonetheless.

 

[Zigsta]

Fortress is definitely whiffable.

 

[Cassius.]

What do you mean? Just like any other move, Fortress can be whiffed or used in a bad manner. For example, you're holding your shield up, Falco comes and FSmashes. You dash-grab but miss because Falco spotdodged. You whiffed the grab right? Same case with Falco if he used some move for example but you got pushed back too far/the move was spaced too well. Normally the best option would be to just use a different move like jab because you won't hit with fortress' initial hitbox, but because of reactionary purposes you use fortress anyway. You whiff, and you try to move in w/e direction but Falco can wait for ^B's cool down and then phantasm to get Bowser in the air.

does that help? it's a bad example but whatever. Fortress is certainly capable of being whiffed. Bowser isn't perfect

 

[phi1ny3]

Also remember that whole laser>grab being safe on block thing GIMR showed in Metagame Minute doesn't work on Bowser because of our up B.

The laser trap shouldn't work 98% of the time anyways b/c it requires fresh laser (or at least significantly fresh ones).

What kind of falco has fresh lasers at a given point except when starting a new stock?

I kinda wish bowser crawled/dashed lower so that he could surprise hit falco out of SH double laser sometimes w/ DA like Snake can, that'd help bowser's approach game a bit imo.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Get the lead with lazers, set up a CG, camp. Game!

 

[Cassius.]

so is there anything else you guys need?

 

[Linkvader]

I think that covers most of the MU. Falco has a good advantage, but Bowser can also do a few things. Now we need to decide on a number.

 

[Gamegenie222]

I say 65-35 for this MU.

 

[Linkvader]

I agree with 65-35. Falco has a lot more options against Bowser, and most of them are better.

 

[Zigsta]

60-40.

If you guys are using BBR numbers, +2.

 

[-DR3W-]

Well, Limit, since you ask...write me a summary of the most important things throughout the thread.

Also I'd say 65-35. Why 6:4 Zig? Bowser doesn't have that many options against Falco's bs.

 

[Choice]

6-4 sounds good, but i dont scaling by 5's so that's why.

 

[SN Viper]

i am thinking 65 - 35 after reading this thread and watching the vids posted.


or +3

 

[A2ZOMG]

Nobody mentioned edgetrapping/edgeguarding in this matchup? Bowser's single biggest weakness?

You guys disappoint me. Especially since we're talking Falco who has what are probably the best edgetrap tools in the game. The matchup is done once Bowser reaches 100%, which you will get him to fairly easily through juggles, chaingrabs, laser shield pokes, etc. Get him offstage and never let him get back on. Nothing else matters as long as you get him to 100% safely. Your F-smash covers like everything safely, and it's easy to react to Bowser's ledge options individually. Edgeguarding Bowser is not hard either given he can't challenge your B-air, and his airdodge fails and gets frametrapped easily.

Against any Bowser silly enough to think that platforms actually help him approach, teach him to respect your B-air and shine more. In fact Bowser is so fat you can space SH Shines on him relatively safely even if he doesn't jump (and Shine OOS punishes Bowser's spaced stuff pretty easily if you need that option). The only somewhat gay thing in this matchup is whiffing a grab on his Up-B, though grab armor might save you here and there, so you shouldn't really be afraid to grab him anyway.

I actually would recommend fighting Bowser on BF as opposed to FD. The option of fullhop D-air and B-air is MUCH safer on Battlefield and is a good spacing option, while Bowser really just has no business fooling around above Falco. Bowser primarily wants to approach on the ground with random Up-Bs and hope this scares you into playing his game.

 

[Zigsta]

Well, Limit, since you ask...write me a summary of the most important things throughout the thread.

Also I'd say 65-35. Why 6:4 Zig? Bowser doesn't have that many options against Falco's bs.

60:40 because it's nowhere near as hard as Olimar and Yoshi, 2 70:30s. It's definitely a MU Bowser loses, but it's not that bad.

Also FYI A2Z is a known Bowser troll. He thinks Ganon beats us.

Case in point: You're not gonna catch a good Bowser approaching Falco with random upBs. That's just dumb. Don't take us to BF over FD unless you want to lose.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon does slightly beat Bowser, but that's aside the point. At any rate it doesn't change that Ganon is the worst character in the game. It only means Bowser is technically disadvantaged to every character in the game. It's to be expected, because he has the worst survivability in the game in terms of options.

Explain why Bowser has any business using platforms in the first place. I logically explained that they are not actually that good for him, since Falco can use the platforms on BF better. You WANT to fight Falco on a neutral where he doesn't have platforms to run on, since it makes spacing for him harder, and the threat of grab release a bit more significant. Falco still dominates you if you try to jump around on platforms since his options for punishing and pressuring above him are extremely good. Shine and carefully spaced B-airs >> Bowser on platforms or above Falco, and if Falco is on the platform directly below, U-smash and U-tilt can shield poke, so actually Falco is harder to approach if he camps under a platform since you can't come in from above him. The only semi decent part about the platforms is they kinda help recovery. Still you have no business pretending the platforms actually do anything to protect you from Falco's zoning. Your airdodge sucks. You can't hit anything below you if the opponent simply attacks. And Falco is one of the best characters in the game at punishing things above him.

On BF, Falco can fulljump D-air and B-air to attempt shield pokes and it's safe if he just lands on the top platform to autocancel. It's not like Bowser can really platform pressure anyway, so it's not a huge risk. On FD, Falco has to fight grounded, which is okay when you're far away from him, annoying for him when he has to guess whether or not his stuff is going to get past Up-B oos, and where getting grab released into dumb stuff is more likely.

The best place for Falco to CP Bowser is Rainbow Cruise anyhow. Very easy for Falco to run away, almost impossible for Bowser to navigate the stage safely. This is the stage you ACTUALLY should ban against him if he knows how to play here.

And if you aren't citing edgetrapping, you're not faithfully explaining all the character strengths and weaknesses. This is especially relevant for Falco and Bowser, the former of which is extremely good at this tactic, the latter of which gets dominated to the extreme by it especially once his damage exceeds 100%.

 

[Zigsta]

BF is one of Bowser's best neutrals, and this MU is no exception. Platforms give Bowser more options when dealing with lasers and CGs.

I've beaten every Falco I've played in tournament here. If you're not smart, you'll take Bowser here.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Which Falcos did you beat? I bet that none of them know how to space for **** and just go for the generic strategy of laser camp, grab, space stuff on ground, and hope it works. I'll prove it if you cite vids. If your argument is so full of holes that you have to cite that you beat x players just to pretend you have validity, I'm not buying you.

BF IS one of Bowser's best neutrals, mainly because Bowser's recovery is **** and he needs the platforms to not automatically die offstage. Doesn't mean much against Falco. He only remotely cares about this matchup because Up-B is not completely braindead to shut down, and because getting grabbed as unlikely as it should be is less than desirable. The two threats Falco has to worry about in this matchup are all grounded. He doesn't mind if Bowser is above him, since he wants that anyway. All everyone wants against Bowser is to get him to 100% and knock him off his feet. Given Falco's amazing methods of dealing damage, and given how STRONG he is at capitalizing on an area where Bowser is weak, this should realistically be one of Bowser's worst matchups.

 

[Choice]

i agree with that on BF. Side b KO's earlier too caz of the platforms.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Main question is when Bowser is ever landing SideB. Just hit him with whatever you want if he's above you. If you're paranoid about how disjointed the aerial SideB is (it's really really slow though), just jump and Shine. It's not like he can punish it if it misses anyway.

 

[Zigsta]

I've never seen a Bowser go for a platform to recover. Platforms are used to pressure opponents under and to give Bowser mixups when he's above an opponent, ie help not expose his blindside.

Bowser will get many side Bs. Always.

Reason I'm not responding to literally everything you say is I don't feel like typing tl;drs on my iPhone.

 

[teluoborg]

A2 you should really try to play the matchups (or the game) before trying to look knowledgeable.

Your posts are filled with the worst kind of theorycrafting.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Uh, I'm not really theorycrafting. I'm explaining from experience from using the characters. My Falco is a work in progress, but my Bowser actually is pretty competent, and I can definitely say from experience that Falco's vertical spacing game is much better on Battlefield, and is a significant advantage he can exploit to avoid a lot of Bowser's threatening ground game. And you obviously don't know what you're talking about teluoborg. Your responses in my platform pressure topic are completely indicative you're no better than the average player in terms of competitive understanding, and pretending that you agree with Adumbrodeus when you OBVIOUSLY don't know wtf he's talking about doesn't make you look smart (your original post against mine was in fact COMPLETELY contradictory to what Adumbrodeus eventually posted).

And I play this game quite a lot (uploaded vids of my Mario and G&W pretty recently as a matter of a fact), and I am pretty sure the average player does not understand what vertical spacing is from reading this discussion. Nor do they understand how good edgetrapping and juggling are. It's a shame, because really if you as a player are only good at those three things, you win against Bowser.

I'm explaining options and how to use them effectively. I don't care if you're not smart enough to understand how simple it is to play smart, I'm simply here to correct that. The point of a matchup discussion is to lay out options and explain why they work. And Zigsta, you have no business here if you want to give me the tl:dr iphone excuse. I'm expecting an intelligent discussion, and if you're not going to be better than the masses you appall me.

Falco isn't a linear character who solely wants to just camp and wait for approaches. He does have limited mobility, but he also has a strong pressure game above him and BF compliments that very nicely for him. At any rate the two moves that Falco cares about in this matchup are mainly grounded, and he's probably going to get hit by them eventually since Up-B is dumb when you have poor aerial mobility for spacing. Oh wait on BF, he can fullhop B-air or D-air a shield safely. Problem solved. On FD Bowser is still going to approach him and Falco will have to take more risks to camp him since going over Bowser is not as viable an option. If you think FD is terrible for Bowser in this matchup, the matchup in general is REALLY ****ING TERRIBLE FOR BOWSER since he definitely doesn't really do better anywhere else except like...Brinstar, a stage that nerfs Falco immensely because his jumps suck for pressuring the platforms and because the lava and terrain is hard for Falco to deal with. You know Falco sucks on Brinstar when one of his best moves on that stage for platform pressure is Up-B.

And of course the stage Bowser should actually ban against a Falco that knows what he's doing is RC. Bowser has the worst recovery in the game and worst landing options, while Falco actually hugely benefits from the moving stage in terms of his ability to run away and camp. As long as Falco stays ahead of Bowser on the transformations, he doesn't have to work at all to set up Bowser for massive damage or kills when the stage will force Bowser to jump like an idiot for him. Bowser jumping against Falco is bad, no matter which way you spin it, and platforms don't change that except you can't airdodge above Falco if he's sitting under one. Or in the case of RC, when a lot of the stage comes in pieces, it means Falco can get whatever he wants when Bowser is forced to jump towards him after a platform disappears.

 

[Zigsta]

Cool story bro.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'll add this, if you've NEVER seen a Bowser recover to a platform, then your opponents are TERRIBLE AT EDGEGUARDING PERIOD. And probably terrible at more things besides that because they fall under the category of average masses who don't actually understand several important high level concepts.

Don't give me bull**** arguments that your tournament experience is a substitute for logical analysis. Either respond to me logically or get out of this discussion because I have no tolerance for your egocentric ways.

 

[Cassius.]

my son mad serious

yo what if there are no platforms on the stage? then what?

logic = boom

and on a more important note Drew i'll get the summary eventually

 

[A2ZOMG]

It sucks to be Bowser period. He actually doesn't want platforms against Falco because Falco abuses platform related tactics far better than he does, and of course Bowser being bad at a lot of things still kinda hates having to give up platforms because he's a linear character with bad durability.

The fact FD is probably legitimately better for Bowser than BF is a statement that this matchup is RIDICULOUSLY BAD for Bowser. Or a statement that you guys do not understand how spacing actually works.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Cool story bro.

Just ignore him if you don't want to talk to him.

Don't give me bull**** arguments that your tournament experience is a substitute for logical analysis. Either respond to me logically or get out of this discussion because I have no tolerance for your egocentric ways.

It is if there tournament experience is proven to work.

See analysis talks about what happens, but the reason question is when you do, does this work and happen in practice?

 

[A2ZOMG]

It is if there tournament experience is proven to work.

See analysis talks about what happens, but the reason question is when you do, does this work and happen in practice?

This is why I need to record more matches of me playing random characters, because I actually do implement a lot of the stuff I talk about, and the friend I'm playing against isn't completely terrible at this game either since we both learn from each others unorthodox tactics. Unfortunately the only recent vids of me up now are ones of my mains, which still implement basically everything that I've mentioned and known to be true.

I don't care if you guys aren't doing this stuff if you don't prove by logical reasoning that your method is smarter. It just means that you're playing suboptimally and don't know it which is awful because I would assume after all these years that critical match analysis would be a commonly acquired skill here. It's like nobody here really understands what the definition of screwing up is.

 

[Flayl]

If you keep throwing stuff at a wall, something is eventually bound to stick!

I'm not sure why you care about Bowser so much to make several tl;dr posts (did he eat your dog) but you should probably leave the matchup discussion to those that are willing to play it in a tournament/money match setting.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bowser matters because he is disadvantaged to the entire cast for two simple reasons. He has the worst durability in the game, and he's the largest target in the game and thus one of the easiest to space against. If you lose to Bowser, it means your fundamentals are terrible, so knowing how to win the Bowser matchup is important because it's an exercise in demonstrating knowledge on how to limit options.

Keep in mind he's not the overall worst character in the game. That's always going to be Ganon. But Ganon does in fact win slightly against Bowser. He can capitalize on Bowser by far better than the other way around, and spacing is not really an issue for him given how huge Bowser is.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This is why I need to record more matches of me playing random characters, because I actually do implement a lot of the stuff I talk about, and the friend I'm playing against isn't completely terrible at this game either since we both learn from each others unorthodox tactics. Unfortunately the only recent vids of me up now are ones of my mains, which still implement basically everything that I've mentioned and known to be true.

I don't care if you guys aren't doing this stuff if you don't prove by logical reasoning that your method is smarter. It just means that you're playing suboptimally and don't know it which is awful because I would assume after all these years that critical match analysis would be a commonly acquired skill here. It's like nobody here really understands what the definition of screwing up is.

Well, do you think you know better than the mains of the characters? Why?

 

[Cassius.]

please get some videos of your bowser, i welcome your bowser wholeheartedly but i really want to see if you're full of **** or if you actually know what you're talking about.

my main issue is that you claim to "play bowser" but you really don't ****ing play him in a setting that actually warrants some merit of any sort, you probably just play with him for fun but that's useless if you don't enter tournaments or do mms with him or w/e

i haven't seen one tournament result from you with bowser on it

talk talk talk talk, where is the experience?

seriously leave it up to the people that have to deal with the experience of actually playing falco players in a tournament setting and vice versa (although the number of bowser players you will meet is drastically smaller)

also why the **** do you keep mentioning ganon in a bowser vs falco mu discussion?

you discredit bowser so much yet half of the **** you talk about doesn't even work/can rarely be applied. we went over this in the bowser boards like 5 times with you

seriously, falco does full hop dair and i shield it. what do i do? full hop uair or even nair. full hop nair autocancels on the bf platforms so bowser can react accordingly to whatever option falco pulls out. if falco airdodges to the platform, klaw. if he airdodges to the ground bowser can runoff klaw and if falco lands on the top platform he can sh klaw and get him if he's on the lower platform or fh klaw if he's at ground level. same case with bair, probably with a smaller window, but you act like bowser has absolutely zero options. you haven't even explored everything

theorycrafting is stupid. yes, undoubtedly falco has the tools to completely limit and shut out bowser, but bowser also has tools to lessen the amount of destruction falco can put on him. it's not a "terrible" matchup at all in my opinion.

i think experience is hella more valuable compared to what we write on paper or type, but that's a matchup discussion right?

a2z i really mean no harm, because i really do read most of your posts that i see, i think you have a different insight to this game, i don't know if it's more logical or what but sometimes i really need to question a lot of things you say.

and also why mention that you and your friend get adjusted to your "unorthodox tactics"? that kinda goes against everything you've been barking at zigsta and flayl for...

 

[A2ZOMG]

seriously, falco does full hop dair and i shield it. what do i do? full hop uair or even nair. full hop nair autocancels on the bf platforms so bowser can react accordingly to whatever option falco pulls out. if falco airdodges to the platform, klaw. if he airdodges to the ground bowser can runoff klaw and if falco lands on the top platform he can sh klaw and get him if he's on the lower platform or fh klaw if he's at ground level. same case with bair, probably with a smaller window, but you act like bowser has absolutely zero options. you haven't even explored everything

Bowser can't U-air Falco for a fullhopped aerial on BF assuming the Falco has half decent spacing and knows that he can generally land on the top platform for an easy autocancel. Bowser doesn't have the horizontal range to really get in the position for a punish, and Bowser doesn't jump that high.

It's MUCH better on FD where yes, Falco has to land in an unsafe way in order to space aerials against Bowser. But on BF, Bowser can't really punish Falco for just doing rising D-airs or B-airs on shield.

theorycrafting is stupid. yes, undoubtedly falco has the tools to completely limit and shut out bowser, but bowser also has tools to lessen the amount of destruction falco can put on him. it's not a "terrible" matchup at all in my opinion.

Says the one who just theorycrafted bull**** that was easy for me to counter logically. BF increases Falco's spacing options. You don't want that. FD is better than BF because Falco has to actually fight on the ground, which is where Bowser has a remote chance of outplaying him. In the air it's no contest if there are platforms for Falco to land on. If you sit on the platforms as Bowser, Falco will Shine and B-air you and you can't do anything about it unless his spacing is terrible. Meanwhile Falco can just abuse the platforms to make his fullhopped aerials retardedly hard to punish.

i think experience is hella more valuable compared to what we write on paper or type, but that's a matchup discussion right?

Go talk to my friend SomeRandomKid. We both know how to use Falco and Bowser. And I assure you we both know that fullhopped aerials are amazing against Bowser. Especially on Battlefield.

a2z i really mean no harm, because i really do read most of your posts that i see, i think you have a different insight to this game, i don't know if it's more logical or what but sometimes i really need to question a lot of things you say.

and also why mention that you and your friend get adjusted to your "unorthodox tactics"? that kinda goes against everything you've been barking at zigsta and flayl for...

Uh, I don't know what the contradiction is. The point is zigsta and flayl don't back up their **** with logical arguments. That most people don't understand what vertical spacing, edgetrapping, and real edgeguarding/juggling is. That Falco mains probably don't play the matchup right and still have the advantage and would utterly DESTROY this matchup if they knew how good their spacing options were.

Experience arguments are bull**** in a matchup discussion. If you watch the videos I have against SomeRandomKid, I assure you that I am far more technical than the average player if you pay close attention to everything I do. I have reason to believe that I know more than the average player, when in practice I am able to edgeguard, juggle, and limit options as effectively as I say options can be limited in theory.

 

[Zigsta]

Well Falcoes, you can either trust a guy who allegedly plays Bowser or some of the world's top Bowsers. Your call.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The worlds top Bowsers who play players who clearly don't actually know matchups. They're obviously getting away with bull**** since they're simply outplaying people and can't analyze for **** that people just don't know wtf they're supposed to be doing. Doesn't mean Bowser actually has options. It just means Bowser players who outplay people who don't know their **** can be sorta legit.

Go ahead and feed your ego on your iphone. My argument still stands virtually uncountered, and the other side is only proving to be indefensible.

 

[teluoborg]

Oh wow you know things about smash and play a lot of different characters against one guy, that must mean you know the game better than the rest of this community. What you say is the truth, and not just a limited point of view.

You must be like, the character boards version of BPC or something.

Oh yeah, I've watched your channel and let me tell you your ingame skills are as good as your writing skills.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I can say the same sarcastic comment right back to you, and the intent is far more true. You're not special and you don't know anything compared to me. I actually spend time experimenting with characters, learning options, and analyzing matches and offering critique, the latter of which a lot of people really seem to suck at. What are you able to do besides half-*** arguments that don't even make sense? If you actually had a brain, you would have logical reasoning as to why I'm incorrect. But nobody does. The only arguments I received back were ego-driven theorycrafting that I know people pulled out of their ***es without actually defending why it works.

And BPC is mad smart, what are you on man? If you haven't accepted that he's smarter than you and knows more about this game than you do, you're only in denial. Unlike you and everyone else, he actually uses his head and spends time analyzing instead of making up **** that you theorycrafted out of your *** without testing. There's nothing special about you on the other hand. You clearly don't have any idea what platform pressure is anyway so you have to pretend that you agree with Adumbrodeus to cover your *** when in fact your original statement is BLATANTLY different from what he points out in my thread. And if he comes by and reads this message, I'll tell him right now that I commend him for actually understanding what I was talking about after reading my topic for the first time.

And my writing skills are pretty good compared to that of most users in this community, so I'll take that as a compliment.