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Falco Matchup #21: Donkey Kong
- Thread starter -DR3W-
- Start date
You know him well.
I'm not inclined to call this anything more than 55-45. DK is so good at killing Falco it's ridiculous, but on the other side of the blasted coin, Falco has some serious trouble ending DK. The good news is you can (and will) deal so much damage fairly safely and your jab is a life saver (when is it not).
Take him to SV. Avoid BF, YI, and stages like them. Ban Brinstar. No questions asked, just do it.
I'm not inclined to call this anything more than 55-45. DK is so good at killing Falco it's ridiculous, but on the other side of the blasted coin, Falco has some serious trouble ending DK. The good news is you can (and will) deal so much damage fairly safely and your jab is a life saver (when is it not).
Take him to SV. Avoid BF, YI, and stages like them. Ban Brinstar. No questions asked, just do it.
Zwei Striker
Smash Apprentice
Dat chaingrab
Camp like your stock depends on it (because it does)
Be really patient on getting the kill
Jabx2 then backroll whenever he's close
Ftilt does nothing
Learn how to get out of the walking grab or to tech his attempt to stage-kill
Beware: dtilt to Down B
Beware: http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&hl=en&v=wWiQTh63_XU
Camp like your stock depends on it (because it does)
Be really patient on getting the kill
Jabx2 then backroll whenever he's close
Ftilt does nothing
Learn how to get out of the walking grab or to tech his attempt to stage-kill
Beware: dtilt to Down B
Beware: http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&hl=en&v=wWiQTh63_XU
Bloodcross
Smash Champion
holy ****
my mind is blown
NOOOOO WAIT, FORWARD ROLL IS BETTER, B/C THEN YOU CAN JAB AGAIN
No but seriously (even though that's serious **** ^)
Generally, camp but camp away from the ledge. Don't get cargo throwed, and if you do get grabbed, be prepare to tech the stage.
Also, jab X2 to forward roll, and then... another jab X2 to forward roll.
it works i swear
Because I'd rather roll than get Uaired out of AAA. I've also been told he can get sideB which would probably make me quit Brawl.
BleachigoZX
Smash Master
This one is easy.
Kinda like Luigi but instead of not over commiting in fear of a combo, you're doing it to avoid death.
Easily a 6:4
Kinda like Luigi but instead of not over commiting in fear of a combo, you're doing it to avoid death.
Easily a 6:4
Donkey Kong here, I hate you guys. 6:4 in my terms as well.
The above post is pretty much right. If you stick to your guns
and pay attention, it's hard for us to land a solid hit. When we do land that hit it feels so good and your world will likely get turned upside down but just don't let that happen.
Early Game At the beginning of the match, chances are both sides are just going to want to camp. DK wants to jump around and build giant punch. In all likelyhood you all will have to strike into Battlefield, and that actually does help us a bit. I'm not encouraging you to go Yoshi's or Lylat as the neutral, you should probably strike those unless you feel comfortable on Lylat then maybe go there. Match starts, we're just going to charge our giant punch and let you shoot lasers. We'll throw a couple relatively safe moves, a down-b or a d-tilt, try and giant punch you if you get greedy like landing laser into attacks. At the start of the match we're really looking to hit you with Giant Punch, F/D-tilt, or Down-b from the get go. All of them cause/lead into serious damage and can practically neutralize(factoring kill power and weight) the chaingrab, if you even get it. Stick to lasering us in this phase. If we are on the platform building giant punch, stick to lasering unless you are absolutely sure we're vulnerable. We are baiting you to come and try and hit us (i.e. into you approaching us) and our punishes from platforms are deceptively good. You have no reason to approach us, you will likely take a lot of damage doing it.
There I just revealed the big secret to the match-up. We don't want to get chaingrabbed because we don't have to get chaingrabbed. There seems to be a common misconception that CG Spike kills DK and it doesn't if the DK DIs and saves his jump. In fact, trying to edgehog after that can easily cause you to get gimped from our up-b. I really recommend if you get the CG to spike onto the stage and just get the follow-up, we're big so f-smash is like guaranteed to hit wherever we go anyways.
In General/Midgame Middle of the match should be self explanatory once we're out of CG percent we'll come and try and pressure you. Be smart with your lasers. We'll try and trade laser with stuff like down-b(does 15%), which can hit you as you land, or a random tilt or super armor. Since we have super-armor on demand with up-b and potentially giant punch, both of which can do an upwards of 30% (and up-b can lead into nasty follow-ups), you should mix up the timing of them so we can't time the super armor. Don't do rapid jab, I swear I will side-b you in the face for doing that, it's too easy. The jab jab roll thing sounds good whichever way you do it, just don't get predictable with the forward roll. In general don't be predictable, because we feed on that. Side-bing through us is hard to stop, we can catch it with up-b generally if we predict it, and that'll really hurt but that's about it. I've done it with down-smash and u-tilt before too.
Recovering? I don't know what to tell you guys when you get offstage. Watch out for our up-b? If you make a sloppy recovery to the edge, we'll up-b stall off the edge and that generally really easily gimps characters like Falco. Our up-b has invincibility and I believe our arms gain invincibility the entire way through, so it can beat lots o stuff. It's dangerous. As for when we're off stage vs you all, I guess you just shoot lasers and do stuff when we're trying to get off the ledge.
Killing (or lack of) As for killing, you all better make sure you get your u-smash to kill if you plan on killing before 150%. I don't know exactly when we can live it with good DI, but we have no fear to up-b brake your u-smash if we have to since you won't hit us with anything stronger. B-air is a really reliable kill move, though it'll take a while. For us, getting the kill without a gimp can be difficult, but it just takes either a good read or you all getting really desperate. Us shielding an up-smash leads to you getting down-smashed. Stuff like that. We'll probably try to kill you early as you're trying to land or get off the edge. Be careful with your landings, laser does not make it safe vs DK. Also our u-tilt is a frame 5 move which can kill surprisingly early. Watch for it in the mid 100's. I guess as always with Falco, don't get greedy with the kill. Ideally you should look for a free punish or wait until you can get the safe b-air kill. Short hop double laser to DACUS
I really think whoever gets the first kill in this match-up is at a strong advantage, since it can be very difficult for either of us to get the kill off. Whoever is on their next stock can take a ton of damage or even just lose their stock before getting the momentum to kill the other.
Stages Starter will probably either be Battlefield or PS1. Battlefield gives us a more reliable way of charging giant punch early game and can leave you buttdevastated if you're above DK, but PS1 can give us free giant punches, forever life, and weird curves that can let us smack you. You all should be looking at FD if it's for some reason unbanned or smashville. Easy enough. We can counterpick pretty much anything vs Falco. Brinstar should probably be your ban, expect Rainbow Cruise or Halberd... or maybe Frigate(can someone help me on this?) from a Kong who likes to counterpick, potentially PS2 but that's not too bad for the match-up, or Yoshi's Island. I really don't support DK CPing to Yoshi's Island vs Falco but they'll do it anyways, just be wary of the up-b invincibility glitch and you'll be find there. Camp under the platform, it's really good. Not that it doesn't help us and mess you over or anything.
TL:DR
There you go. You all rack safe damage really damn well and everything you do is very fast and difficult to punish. We can punish you if you fall into a pattern or you make a mistake, because we're DK and that's what we do.
The above post is pretty much right. If you stick to your guns
and pay attention, it's hard for us to land a solid hit. When we do land that hit it feels so good and your world will likely get turned upside down but just don't let that happen. Early Game At the beginning of the match, chances are both sides are just going to want to camp. DK wants to jump around and build giant punch. In all likelyhood you all will have to strike into Battlefield, and that actually does help us a bit. I'm not encouraging you to go Yoshi's or Lylat as the neutral, you should probably strike those unless you feel comfortable on Lylat then maybe go there. Match starts, we're just going to charge our giant punch and let you shoot lasers. We'll throw a couple relatively safe moves, a down-b or a d-tilt, try and giant punch you if you get greedy like landing laser into attacks. At the start of the match we're really looking to hit you with Giant Punch, F/D-tilt, or Down-b from the get go. All of them cause/lead into serious damage and can practically neutralize(factoring kill power and weight) the chaingrab, if you even get it. Stick to lasering us in this phase. If we are on the platform building giant punch, stick to lasering unless you are absolutely sure we're vulnerable. We are baiting you to come and try and hit us (i.e. into you approaching us) and our punishes from platforms are deceptively good. You have no reason to approach us, you will likely take a lot of damage doing it.
There I just revealed the big secret to the match-up. We don't want to get chaingrabbed because we don't have to get chaingrabbed. There seems to be a common misconception that CG Spike kills DK and it doesn't if the DK DIs and saves his jump. In fact, trying to edgehog after that can easily cause you to get gimped from our up-b. I really recommend if you get the CG to spike onto the stage and just get the follow-up, we're big so f-smash is like guaranteed to hit wherever we go anyways
.In General/Midgame Middle of the match should be self explanatory once we're out of CG percent we'll come and try and pressure you. Be smart with your lasers. We'll try and trade laser with stuff like down-b(does 15%), which can hit you as you land, or a random tilt or super armor. Since we have super-armor on demand with up-b and potentially giant punch, both of which can do an upwards of 30% (and up-b can lead into nasty follow-ups), you should mix up the timing of them so we can't time the super armor. Don't do rapid jab, I swear I will side-b you in the face for doing that, it's too easy. The jab jab roll thing sounds good whichever way you do it, just don't get predictable with the forward roll. In general don't be predictable, because we feed on that. Side-bing through us is hard to stop, we can catch it with up-b generally if we predict it, and that'll really hurt but that's about it. I've done it with down-smash and u-tilt before too.
Recovering? I don't know what to tell you guys when you get offstage. Watch out for our up-b? If you make a sloppy recovery to the edge, we'll up-b stall off the edge and that generally really easily gimps characters like Falco. Our up-b has invincibility and I believe our arms gain invincibility the entire way through, so it can beat lots o stuff. It's dangerous. As for when we're off stage vs you all, I guess you just shoot lasers and do stuff when we're trying to get off the ledge.
Killing (or lack of) As for killing, you all better make sure you get your u-smash to kill if you plan on killing before 150%. I don't know exactly when we can live it with good DI, but we have no fear to up-b brake your u-smash if we have to since you won't hit us with anything stronger. B-air is a really reliable kill move, though it'll take a while. For us, getting the kill without a gimp can be difficult, but it just takes either a good read or you all getting really desperate. Us shielding an up-smash leads to you getting down-smashed. Stuff like that. We'll probably try to kill you early as you're trying to land or get off the edge. Be careful with your landings, laser does not make it safe vs DK. Also our u-tilt is a frame 5 move which can kill surprisingly early. Watch for it in the mid 100's. I guess as always with Falco, don't get greedy with the kill. Ideally you should look for a free punish or wait until you can get the safe b-air kill. Short hop double laser to DACUS
I really think whoever gets the first kill in this match-up is at a strong advantage, since it can be very difficult for either of us to get the kill off. Whoever is on their next stock can take a ton of damage or even just lose their stock before getting the momentum to kill the other.
Stages Starter will probably either be Battlefield or PS1. Battlefield gives us a more reliable way of charging giant punch early game and can leave you buttdevastated if you're above DK, but PS1 can give us free giant punches, forever life, and weird curves that can let us smack you. You all should be looking at FD if it's for some reason unbanned or smashville. Easy enough
. We can counterpick pretty much anything vs Falco. Brinstar should probably be your ban, expect Rainbow Cruise or Halberd... or maybe Frigate(can someone help me on this?) from a Kong who likes to counterpick, potentially PS2 but that's not too bad for the match-up, or Yoshi's Island. I really don't support DK CPing to Yoshi's Island vs Falco but they'll do it anyways, just be wary of the up-b invincibility glitch and you'll be find there. Camp under the platform, it's really good. Not that it doesn't help us and mess you over or anything. TL:DR
- Camp smartly
- Don't get hit
- Seriously
- Just camp more
- Go for safe damage, not kills
- Watch out for our Up-b, it'll mess you up
- Ban Brinstar
There you go. You all rack safe damage really damn well and everything you do is very fast and difficult to punish. We can punish you if you fall into a pattern or you make a mistake, because we're DK and that's what we do.
Bloodcross
Smash Champion
Thanks alot Sold
I should note that Reflector outranges DK's moveset (please correct me if I'm wrong, particularly if it outranges Ftilt or not, but I think it does). rly tired so i cant say much
This is one of those match ups where we can camp DK to 200% and kill with Ftilt and win.
I should note that Reflector outranges DK's moveset (please correct me if I'm wrong, particularly if it outranges Ftilt or not, but I think it does). rly tired so i cant say much
This is one of those match ups where we can camp DK to 200% and kill with Ftilt and win.
I don't think it outranges our down-b. Really I wouldn't advise using Reflector unless you got a really cool read, it's not very safe or threatening to us.
.
Also another thing that should be noted is that Falco's f-smash is surprisingly difficult for DK to deal with. I'm not saying to just go throwing it around or something, but that thing will pretty much always sweetspot us. It's hard for us to challenge it. We'll giant punch it if you just charge it and we have it, though. And naturally we can just shield it but our shield is doody.
This. I literally should have just wrote this instead of the TL:DR
.Also another thing that should be noted is that Falco's f-smash is surprisingly difficult for DK to deal with. I'm not saying to just go throwing it around or something, but that thing will pretty much always sweetspot us. It's hard for us to challenge it. We'll giant punch it if you just charge it and we have it, though. And naturally we can just shield it but our shield is doody.
Yeah, you can't monkey aroundIf you stick to your guns
in this match-up or DK will go ape 
on our poor bird.But in all seriousness. Thanks for the write-up, Stew. I'm still in favor of PS1 over BF or Lylat, even after talking to you about it.
Bloodcross
Smash Champion
Reflector pushes you back and I'm able to keep my distance this way. It's a personal strat for me.
btw, just grab the upb. if he's retreating to a platform, don't **** with it. just keep camping.
btw, just grab the upb. if he's retreating to a platform, don't **** with it. just keep camping.
Grab the UpB? You're a pretty brave guy. I'm not so sure that works.
Bloodcross
Smash Champion
Well, more like pivot grabbing when the upb's invincibility frames end or something.
Those arms are really ****ing long and I don't think they have a hurtbox.
Yeah, the gap between hits on DK's UpB is 4 frames (3 frames toward the end and the last two hitboxes are on consecutive frames). Falco's grab is frame 6, so you won't be shield grabbing his UpB. His arms are only invincible if he uses the aerial version, so a spaced pivot grab could snag him (it's super armor on frame 10-16, but that's grabbable).
Okay, but that's still never gonna happen. That would entail DK running up and UpBing like he was a real cool guy and I can't see him having any reason to throw it where you could pivot grab him and I can't see any way Falco could bait it.
Okay, but that's still never gonna happen. That would entail DK running up and UpBing like he was a real cool guy and I can't see him having any reason to throw it where you could pivot grab him and I can't see any way Falco could bait it.
Bloodcross
Smash Champion
lmao
idk it works sometimes
you should still leave it alone anyway
idk it works sometimes
you should still leave it alone anyway
BleachigoZX
Smash Master
This was a good read.
You should know that DK can aerial out of charging his punch through the mechanics of the game. I always see people eat the bair, so just watch for that.
You should know that DK can aerial out of charging his punch through the mechanics of the game. I always see people eat the bair, so just watch for that.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
you can shield grab that **** at the end
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,346
I thought I saw ripple post you can get out of cargo carry as soon as possible by holding up on the control stick.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
You can. And I've been downsmashed out of it for falling asleep just a second too long.
I think if you're aware you can safely dodge or something (maybe ground pound won't reach?), but it's unlikely that a DK will hold you in cargo for long at low %s.
I think if you're aware you can safely dodge or something (maybe ground pound won't reach?), but it's unlikely that a DK will hold you in cargo for long at low %s.
So you hold up while getting cargo'd? Cause I heard A+B mashing is the most efficient. I just don't want to randomly button mash because there is a 9/10 chance I will end up ****ing phantasming the other way. I just need the confirmed most efficient and safe combination possible.
Also, when I'm getting hit my dkroflcopter I just oos sh dair it. Not a grab worth going for, most of the time.
By the way, Sold, I totally appreciate all of the input.
Also, when I'm getting hit my dkroflcopter I just oos sh dair it. Not a grab worth going for, most of the time.
By the way, Sold, I totally appreciate all of the input.
DJ Arcatek
Smash Champion
Solid post, sold. There are no notable DKs in Florida, so I honestly can't really input anything that everybody else hasn't already said. Besides, everything I'd "say" would just be theorycrafting lol. But as everybody else stated, DK doesn't die until like 150 and above and we die at like 80-90% from dsmash. Camping is imperative here. And... Reflector. It works.
By the way, I'm playing Donkey Kong 64, and the game has taught me to not **** around with DK. Serious ****.
By the way, I'm playing Donkey Kong 64, and the game has taught me to not **** around with DK. Serious ****.
You can do A LOT more than shield grab. DK's up-b has 28 frames of cooldown following the last hit. Naturally we can move away with it, but you should be able to u-smash it anyways. Or ____ aerial. It does a ton of shield damage it though. If you're at a full shield you'll be fine. If your shield is damaged it might get through. There are some moves that if you shield up-b is pretty much guaranteed to get through, like side-b, giant punch, up-b itself, down-b (lol all the specials), and I guess f-smash.
Kind of. We can cancel it every time he completes a "wind," or when he makes the whoosh sound. It takes 7 frames per wind, so it can take up to I guess 6 frames for us to cancel it. Once we cancel it we can do whatever we want, b-air, u-air, and up-b are all quick good options, side-b is a really funny thing if someone's trying to catch your landing.
Hold up will get you out of it as soon as possible. I'm unsure about frames upon releasing on the ground, but it's very close to even frames if not even. You should be able to jab us before anything we can do. When you release from the cargo you can DI a bit, you can even get behind us with it. If you're facing Will, he'll spin around while you're on his back and it'll confuse you. I don't know how to explain that.
If you get released in air while we're both falling offstage, we get a free up-b if we're buffering it which is really sweet.
Don't even get me started on DK64. He has his brawl f-air in that game and it's like 2 frames that move would mess people UP in brawl.
Also I'm serious when I say I will eat you for using reflector. I don't even think that thing even has frame advantage on hit at low percents, bar trips.
Pelca
Smash Journeyman
grab donkey kong then just pause the game and zoom in at his face thats struggling! you will have to throw away a stock for pausing but it's so funny!!!! after that re-spawn and just say to yourself "alright now I feel like winning" then win!
DUB
Smash Lord
Vs Dk I like to Jabx8, spotdogex3, jabx4,froward roll, spotdoge spotdoge jab.