Q&A Falco, King of the Birds: Game Play Discussion

[FlynnCL]

We should approach this character in a different way, rather than forcing him to use what is no longer effective. He's lost tools that made him powerful in his previous games, but he's not without options.

Up-aerial should be used a lot more, as it has the knockback to follow up. It has relatively little landing lag, so short-hop fast-fall up-air may be a great tool once people get extra control options. Down-tilt is also a pretty decent tool for setting up.

Down and up-throw are good. I've seen down-throw to dash-attack quite often. Back-throw is pretty powerful.

Meteor-smashes seem far more effective in this game, and with Phantasm no longer forcing you into a helpless state, perhaps there's a few set-ups into it.

Also, I've added a lot more gifs to my first post on the front page. It was pretty fun to make.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ok. So, the reflectors are exactly as has been outlined with Reflector 3 being the clear choice as a kill blow without enough start-up added to merit the power increase.

I still haven't gotten the third laser.

UpB 3 has Brawl Fox-esque distance and deals more damage, but after it is finished traveling, you drop like a rock, similar to Wolf. Unless Fire Bird 2 is better, this is what I would recommend.

SideB is super interesting. You have default SideB which does light damage and meteors. SideB 3 which doesn't meteor, but does 12ish with solid KB (Kill at maybe 190 on stage) and can be used to chase off stage (highly unrecommended) to kill earlier because you do not go into helpless. SideB 2 is my favorite though. It has no hitbox, but is faster. It also has the Brawl invul through the entire move (goes about half of battlefield's length).

Cross posted.

 

[FlashingFire]

Phantasm could be a pretty nasty edgeguard, now that I think about it. I've seen a lot of people recover low since it's virtually impossible to hit a recovering player from onstage before they sweetspot the ledge, so dropping down and using the phantasm may be the new version of Dair edgeguarding.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

It is highly unlikely that it can be reasonably used as an edge guard unless you're fishing for style points. Dair will likely be the new version of Dair edge guarding.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Spiking should be kept as a mix up or surprise attack. Condition your opponents with bairs than come in with a dair to catch the air dodge.

Side B'ing repeatedly onto the ledge may actually work as an edgeguard as well.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

More likely hang put in air and sideb to the ledge yo force a ledge ejection. Dunno what Falco gets though.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Apparently you can get hit during the lefge steal.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Really? VGBC (pretty sure it was them) was talking about characters like Marth and Lucina having guaranteed kill setups off of ledge ejection. I haven't tested it myself as I only have one import copy, so I haven't tested it and it's all word of mouth.

 

[Shaya]

Person getting taken off the ledge has frame advantage. So they can air dodge or even jump probably.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Good to know. Thanks. Must have been talking about the reverse situation.

 

[Shaya]

Sorry I should've said I'm not sure of that, but that's how I interpreted Overswarm.

 

[meleebrawler]

We should approach this character in a different way, rather than forcing him to use what is no longer effective. He's lost tools that made him powerful in his previous games, but he's not without options.

Do you feel the same way about Fox?

 

[ImaClubYou]

I just remembered you can jab reset in this game. Not sure if lasers can though. This could be big for Dash attack, grab, or short hop pivot bair follow ups.

 

[Jackson]

I'm still hyped for Falco even though he got nerfed. I feel like he's gonna be a spacing character with his Bair and Shine.

Can anyone confirm if you can RAR Bair? That sounds pretty strong to me.

 

[Naridax]

Yes, you can. I saw Vex do it on ZeRo's stream vs a Dedede.

 

[Ultinarok]

But Kirby Dedede, Pit, and Dark Pit have New/Deferent final smashes.
Can you say Sakurai Bias?

More just that their previous FS were atrocious. All three of them. Dark Pit's is just cloned from Zelda too, so its not very time-intensive. Landmaster is stupid, yes, and feels dumb to be there, but at least its effective.

Anyone notice that Falco has not only a new U-Smash, but also a new bair? He's got Wolf's bair now. At least SOMETHING of Wolf's was kept I guess, and it was his most effective move as a bonus...

Falco looks pretty cool though. Without AWAAOOOOO (Wolf's U-Smash), Falco's is now the coolest in the game, so that softens the blow too. Good to see that dair and blaster are rebalanced, they needed it. Here's hoping down-throw doesn't chaingrab everyone either. Falco was like Diddy and Olimar; powerful for the wrong reasons. He needs a good combo game like Melee, not cheap tactics.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I just remembered you can jab reset in this game. Not sure if lasers can though. This could be big for Dash attack, grab, or short hop pivot bair follow ups.

You can jab reset 4 times (maybe 3? I don't remember) then it stands them up immediately and they can act without much delay if any. The only way to get lasers out fast enough to reset (unless Laser 3 is really good) is to use standing lasers, so you're just gonna get 4 lasers.

 

[EpixAura]

Dat ain't Falco. At least not the one I know and love. I think the nerfs really did hit him too hard. That said, combos off of Dthrow could be promising. Is Dthrow -> Dash Attack -> Utilt a thing in Smash 4?
I'm also pretty happy that he's finally no longer a flightless bird. Being able to act after SideB is pretty promising.

 

[Jackson]

One more thing... can anyone confirm if B reversing is in? B reversing shine could be a decent mixup.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I've been playing with Falco a lot, and while he is different, he is still good.

His Dair does have a decent amount of start up and end lag, but it is still very good. It has been buffed as a spike, actually, and given the properties of spikes in this game, being able to chain Dairs like that would have basically been an auto pillar combo. Essentially, you want to chase your opponent in the Air, and when you spike, fast fall to auto cancel, and the ground bounce can set you up for a SH Nair, U-tilt, U-smash etc at low to mid percents. At higher percents you can Dair again or Uair.

Falco's Fair is a bit safer since it has a landing hitbox like Pikachu's Dair. It's laggy, but safer. The rest of his aerials are amazing, fast and can kill (Bair and Uair).

Falco's ground game got a huge buff. With his F-tilt range increase, D-tilt speed (D-tilt into an aerial works), which can chain into itself at low percents. I saw a Falco player do D-tilt, D-tilt, reflector and it safely comboed. Pivot canceling lets Falco zone and pressure so safely since the distance you gain from the pivot is great. You can also do Pivot F-smashes that allow you to charge the move while you are still sliding.

You can still SH Illusion on stage too. Little to no lag on it.

I think Falco is still really solid.

 

[Jackson]

I've been playing with Falco a lot, and while he is different, he is still good.

His Dair does have a decent amount of start up and end lag, but it is still very good. It has been buffed as a spike, actually, and given the properties of spikes in this game, being able to chain Dairs like that would have basically been an auto pillar combo. Essentially, you want to chase your opponent in the Air, and when you spike, fast fall to auto cancel, and the ground bounce can set you up for a SH Nair, U-tilt, U-smash etc at low to mid percents. At higher percents you can Dair again or Uair.

Falco's Fair is a bit safer since it has a landing hitbox like Pikachu's Dair. It's laggy, but safer. The rest of his aerials are amazing, fast and can kill (Bair and Uair).

Falco's ground game got a huge buff. With his F-tilt range increase, D-tilt speed (D-tilt into an aerial works), which can chain into itself at low percents. I saw a Falco player do D-tilt, D-tilt, reflector and it safely comboed. Pivot canceling lets Falco zone and pressure so safely since the distance you gain from the pivot is great. You can also do Pivot F-smashes that allow you to charge the move while you are still sliding.

You can still SH Illusion on stage too. Little to no lag on it.

I think Falco is still really solid.

Good analysis. How do you pivot cancel?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Good analysis. How do you pivot cancel?

During tour characters dash turning animation you immediately press A. Basically you are inputting a forward tilt or smash in the opposite direction during your running animation. It's an incredibly nice spacing tool, and I'm supposed that with all of my online play, little to no one was using it.

I have a few videos recorded on my friends DS. When I have the time I'll show how it is applied.

 

[Jackson]

During tour characters dash turning animation you immediately press A. Basically you are inputting a forward tilt or smash in the opposite direction during your running animation. It's an incredibly nice spacing tool, and I'm supposed that with all of my online play, little to no one was using it.

I have a few videos recorded on my friends DS. When I have the time I'll show how it is applied.

Cool, thanks. Sounds like it has a lot of potential.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, I'll just reiterate.
This character is still structurally hella amazing.

Dash attack and jab are two moves which are still better singularly than entire character's movesets.
Custom specials allow us a stronger recovery option.

He destroys any projectile based character still, arguably even harder than before on average. His Shine is a lot less laggy than most character's projectile options.

The only thing that will hold him back in the meta is his ability to kill. But dash attack combos into anything at every percent. And move decay is back in this (keeping dash attack comboing well/easily for a very long time).
We virtually have the best bread and butter moves in the game that any other character would die for.

I won't say for sure "definite top/high tier", but as I doubt any chain grabs/0-deaths are going to crop up easily with a buffed recovery custom special available and there's nothing in this game yet that I've seen Falco should struggle against except maybe stronger rushdown aggressors (Sheik/Fox?). But... jab...

Like this character probably still beats all the heavy-weights that this Meta will be dominated by. At least on the Omega-meta.

Learn this character if you like him, I doubt your efforts will be in vain.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Thank you.

I really don't understand the sudden gloom and doom attitude in this room.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Sooo...I'm gonna be the best and currently as of now am going to main him. Played him and definitely like his tools. Having 's bair is a HUGE reason I'm gonna finally use an actual bird.

 

[Jackson]

Thank you.

I really don't understand the sudden gloom and doom attitude in this room.

I know, right? Everyone's like, "Dair's slow, he has Brawl Shine, therefore Falco is trash tier"... while the character has some great options.

 

[Shaya]

Great options?

No no. THE BEST Options.

Sooo...I'm gonna be the best and currently as of now am going to main him. Played him and definitely like his tools. Having 's bair is a HUGE reason I'm gonna finally use an actual bird.

Nah Scrub I'll rek you.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

I gotta get my hands on this game and test him out.

Combat heavy focus is nice, I supposed. I loved up close pressuring in melee.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Falco's D-throw is actually really good at low percents.

 

[King Funk]

How are his lasers?

 

[Jackson]

How are his lasers?

I'm pretty sure short hop laser is really laggy.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Unless you want the top height from Brawl in which case it's only a little laggy. Otherwise, you're basically shooting a grounded laser.

 

[Shaya]

Have people tried immediate double jumping (backwards jump animation) into laser?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Yeah. If I recall correctly, you get a double jump laser and a top of short hop laser. The problem is that any laser you shoot from below that height, no matter the jump set-up, will transition into grounded laser.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Saw a lot of Falco today on stream. It's hard to describe him, but he looks fantastic. Jab fluidly goes into other aerial options. He can really control the space of the match very well.

As Shaya mentioned, successfully getting the ko seems to be his main issue.

 

[Shaya]

Falco was one of the few characters in Brawl who actually had the tools to be an aggressive character.
As farfetched as that sounds; most playstyles you see or what you generally envisage Falco for in Brawl is Side-B + Laser camping and a chain grab, so I can understand the sentiment that the nerfing/removal of those things would mean a terrible bird.

But back to Brawl. MK, Marth and Falco, and to a degree Diddy Kong, were four of the only [high-tier] characters in the game with potent aggressive tools. What allowed these characters to be successful in aggression stems from their low height/vertical dominance and their superior options out of a dash.

Amazing low height options (Falco lasers, Marth's fair, MK's dair/tornado) mean that out of a jump they were very potent. Jumping is one of few options available out of a dash animation in Brawl. What was also required was a grounded dominant tool out of their dash.
For MK this was dash grabs, dash grounded shuttle loop
For Marth this was dancing blade/side-b.
For Falco this was dash attack.
For diddy this was jump cancelled item throws (his dash attack/side-b were also great)

But why were options out of dash so so so important? Buffered dash options out of power shields were practically all guaranteed to punish everyone in the cast. Sure Snake could power shield up tilt, but MK can power shield dash and uair you guaranteed (or shuttle loop) and being in a poor position against MK leads to a lot of damage or the loss of your stock and that's potent at every percent, not just at getting the kill on a poorly spaced enemy attack.

Smash Bros dash games were buffed a little over all, but Falco's dastardly strength from dashes were not nerfed. If shield stun or shield drops in this game are faster than Brawl (I'm still not sure?), than characters with moves like Falco's dash attack are going to be even stronger as a punisher. The aggressive tool of shdl -> shsl (double laser-> single laser) was taken away, but in general zoning characters/keep away games were nerfed on everyone else too, while the rest of Falco's tools were not.

 

[Acton]

Saw a lot of Falco today on stream. It's hard to describe him, but he looks fantastic. Jab fluidly goes into other aerial options. He can really control the space of the match very well.

As Shaya mentioned, successfully getting the ko seems to be his main issue.

What stream where you watching? I was watching zero's stream most of the day. I got him to do a little falco demo/move analysis too that he says he's going to post on youtube. He see's falco as being a stage based character whose going to continue to abuse jabs like he did in brawl. He used the term "boxer" to describe him. He commented on the nerfed dair being very situational now as stated, and a lot of the comments made here seem to be in line with what his thoughts where.

I mean I can see some similarities between him and little mac with their ground speed and jab mix ups, other then that I'm not going to speculate on the character personally because I don't really feel like I have the expertise too. ^^'

Zero's handle with falco didn't seem that great compared to the way he handled himself with other characters, but he even stated in the stream earlier on that he despises falco as a character in general. Not trying to bash Zero he's a really nice dude and was nice enough to do a little demo. xD

There's not much on youtube at the moment, but I want to check out more competitive play of falco in the new game if anyone can point me in the right direction! ^^ Can't wait till the game comes out, kinda getting sick of the demo!

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

What stream where you watching? I was watching zero's stream most of the day. I got him to do a little falco demo/move analysis too that he says he's going to post on youtube. He see's falco as being a land based character whose going to continue to abuse jabs like he did in brawl. he used the term "boxer." I mean I can see some similarities between him and little mac with their ground speed and jab mix ups, other then that I'm not going to speculate on the character personally because I don't really feel like I have the expertise too. ^^'

Zero's handle with falco didn't seem that great compared to the way he handled himself with other characters, but he even stated in the stream earlier on that he despises falco as a character in general. Not trying to bash Zero he's a really nice dude and was nice enough to do a little demo. xD

There's not much on youtube at the moment, but I want to check out more competitive play of falco in the new game if anyone can point me in the right direction! ^^ Can't wait till the game comes out, kinda getting sick of the demo!

I was watching Shofu's. Him and his friends really seem to love Falco.

I'd agree with Zero's description. Falco has an up-close focus, which was always kind of there but now it's really at the forefront because of the laser nerf. Dash attack is going to be key.

 

[S2rulL]

Looks like bair is gonna be Lombardi's best kill move, and with what seems to be better overall recovery, he might be able to go a decent distance off stage for the kill?