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Falco Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Falco' started by Dr Peepee, Nov 27, 2009.

  1. ~Twitch~

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    where else would we troll each other?
     
  2. Dr Peepee

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    I have successfully taught Twitch the usefulness of upsmash.

    I tech chase upsmash'd on a platform to Uair kill(on Fox). That is another thing you can use upsmash for Falco boards.
     
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  3. ~Twitch~

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    you could have just as easily dair to shine - upb or any other gay tactics you falcos have.
     
  4. Divinokage

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    So simple.. how boring!! Wheres the upsmash into dair, chase into dair into dair, dair. lol.
     
  5. Dr Peepee

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    That was just an example lol.

    But simple is legit anyway. =)
     
  6. ~Twitch~

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    idk bout that but he does dair - dair - dair - dair on me sometimes.
     
  7. genkaku

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    I look more like John. Was gonna get round glasses too, lol.
     
  8. Mahone

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    Are you tired?
     
  9. Dr Peepee

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    why do you ask
     
  10. Mahone

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    Oh, i figured you would be since you were up smashing all night lololool
     
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  11. Bones0

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  12. Mahone

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    bones, ur coming to sypher's this saturday right?? Also, get Vist and thumbs to come
     
  13. Bones0

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    Yeah, definitely. I haven't played anyone other than DJ's Marth for months now so I'm probably (more) horrible... But I can ledge dash and shield drop perfectly, so we'll see. :|
     
  14. Strong Bad

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    it's ok. you made that amazing taj post.
     
  15. Bones0

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    I don't want to live the rest of my life in the shadow(claw) of Taj's ****.
     
  16. Strong Bad

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    link me to that post please :3
     
  17. Lightsyde

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    Lmfaooooooo ****ing Kumar.
     
  18. Lightsyde

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    le double post
     
  19. Mahone

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  20. Dr Peepee

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    A couple things

    I'm going to write about more things that I've been thinking about.

    Characters teach people different things. This is because they have a solid strategy they're biased towards such as Falcon tech chasing or Marth spacing or grabbing or spacies shield pressuring. This is a great reason to not only hone these types of character specific skills but also apply them to your main(assuming one main for the purpose of discussion).

    For example, I really like dash dancing as a mechanic in Melee and think I understand it very well(I should write about that sometime but don't think it goes in this post haha), but it's not something that should come naturally to one who plays as Falco(if they learn on their own, anyway....ahhh another topic!). No, my understanding of the dash dancing mechanic came to me through my prolific use of Fox, Marth, and Falcon. These characters all have exceptional dash dance games and the effectiveness via variability of such movement tricks was very fun and interesting to me.

    *what do I mean by "effectiveness via variability?" Well, because those characters are so fast/have long dash lengths/can do many powerful actions out of a dash or pivot(Fox Nair, Falcon Bair wall or retreating, Marth pivot grab), they have more options using this mechanic available to them. Now for some players this mechanic need not be explored too far because they can make one or two tricks they know work and build off of that, but for those wanting a competitive edge I strongly encourage a thorough exploration of what exactly you can do out of a dash dance(pivot Fsmashing is pretty cool but incredibly underused these days), how much you can alter it(see: Mango's stupid dash dance video lol), and how it affects your opponent in varying circumstances(under pressure vs neutral position, for example), among other things.

    By truly understanding this one facet of your character and being able to manipulate it at will to any circumstance you are in, you should further your understanding of your character and be able to work it together with all of your pre-existing concepts about Melee(edgeguarding for example, something you may not normally associate with dash dancing, could certainly be influenced by how your dash dancing is done vs an opponent who is onstage and not just on the edge or trying to recover).

    Now, when you go and apply such a concept from a character who is probably "better" at the trait(in this case DD'ing) to your main(in my case Falco), it takes some readjusting because your character may be worse at it, or at least apply it differently. I was frustrated with Falco(or my Falco anyway) for a time because I wanted him to be fast enough to punish openings I made with a dash dance the same way I could with, say, Fox, from the same spacing. Once I got over my initial frustration I began to look at how Falco scared people and how dash dancing works WITH Falco in his own way, much like how each dash dance-oriented character still had their own unique application of the mechanic. Lasers, not speed or pressure alone, were what locked my opponent down when on the ground(for simplicity's sake I'll just be referencing the ground game). So my dash dancing game has to WORK WITH MY LASER GAME in order to be successful. This seems somewhat straightforward but taking into account people's reactions when I am at certain laser spacings and all of the other conditioning on my other moves I must do it is somewhat tricky to work in DD'ing without wasting opportunities or getting hit anyway(as if I straight up approached instead of only feigned my approach with DD'ing). I encourage anyone who is curious to watch my set vs Armada at Pound 5. I get him to put up his shield and sometimes dash dance in front of him. Sometimes I try to do it and get Nair'd OOS because Armada was expecting a regular approach(or he saw my bad spacing and my conditioning wasn't good enough I suppose haha) and sometimes he stays there because he is afraid and my conditioning was successful.


    If anyone wishes to discuss other mechanics of other characters and how it has translated to their own mains(or even if they wish to discuss DD'ing!) then I would be very interested in hearing such stories. =)





    I also want to talk about some thoughts I had regarding approaching I thought of a while back.


    I always kind of laughed with the old school players who I would see/hear say something about Fox's Nair and how everyone new just wanted to use that move and nothing else, especially to approach. I thought on my own Fox play one day and realized I was just as guilty as all of the "newer" Foxes of playing very Nair-happy. I wasn't really sure what to do about it though because there didn't seem to be many other good approaches besides dash attack(only because LoZR did that a lot did I decide it was good) and running shine sorta as a mixup once in a while.

    I got kind of lucky in how I figured this out though(as it seems to happen with most of my revelations haha). I was watching that good ol FC3 crew battle and all its hype, when I saw some of the Foxes going in to play. I had that Nair comment stuck in my mind so I wanted to see what old school thought solid Fox play was.

    There were no Nairs. At all.

    They were doing like FH Bair and dash attack and upsmash approaches. Otherwise they'd shoot a single laser or two. I thought this was funny because it was exactly what Mow says good Fox play should be like, but also because it didn't seem like it should work to me. It's not like these Fox players got destroyed or anything. They held their own, too.

    *For those that hate on the old metagame, while I don't have that theory fleshed out yet, I can say that there is great merit in it still because of the emphasis of smarts if nothing else....sorry for the shoddy backing but I want to save my thoughts of the old metagame for another day haha*

    So, rather than just being a regular copycat and saying "okay I'll just add these tricks to my game," I decided to think for a little about why these moves worked as I watched the Foxes play. It didn't take too long either before I made another, somewhat embarrassingly obvious discovery: any move in the game can be used to approach if you get the correct read/conditioning.

    *for the skeptics, this at least allows you to open up your mind to the possibility of approaches being outside whatever the "staple" approach options are that can still be effective. hitting with Marth's uptilt, a great combo starter, would be a pretty cool thing to approach with, huh?*

    Bair is still somewhat used today, but not really as an approach so much as a wall/spacer. Dash attack and Upsmash use Fox's insane running speed combined with the fact that they jut out in front of him(and in upsmash's case, above him as well).

    I played around with Fox's approaches that day or next vs Twitch and found I really could approach with whatever I wanted to if I got the correct read/conditioning. It makes Melee come alive for me when I'm really considering it and knowing how many options I have at my disposal. Combining movement(a key ingredient in approaches and conditioning that I never considered on its own until I heard 2D fighting players say that it was a huge part of Melee haha XD pretty embarrassing once again) with this idea allows for even more unique and sometimes situational approaches that make Melee so deep.

    What a good effin game. <3


    Anyone have any jank approaches they want to share? I'd be very interested in hearing about those or maybe jank defensive ideas(haven't thought of those yet tbh it just came to me haha). =)
     
    LeadRod, Phan7om, dRevan64 and 2 others like this.
  21. Fried Ice Cream

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    I love large Peepee posts, so interesting to read!

    EDIT: Sharing my thoughts on this, but bare in mind, I'm a Fox main, so this is all from a fox perspective.

    Something I like to do is feigning retreats. One of the best way to do this for me to jump away from my opponent, maybe double jump, but make sure I'm out of their range (my back is towards them) so they're fairly confident that I'm retreating and can't hit them, so might try to chase me. Instead of actually retreating after I land, I decide to waveland towards them and U-tilt. A lot of times they don't see this coming and it's pretty safe if they do shield this. I also do this with dashdances for examples, or just running away, wavedashing back and attacking again. I think feigning retreats don't get used enough, ESPECIALLY at mid level play, I hardly see it.
    Giving your opponent space to breathe by making them think you are afraid often gives them a false sense of security. Immedeatly turning back into offensive is a sudden switch. Especially with a fast character as Fox, this has a lot of potential.
     
  22. ShroudedOne

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    Another great post, Peepee. Gives me a lot to think about.

    I'll share thoughts as well, but this is from a Peach point of view. First, on traits/mechanics that have transferred to my main from my Fox secondary, I can't say that I've noticed specifics, but I've realized the need for quick, fast tech skill with Peach (lol), and she's gotten faster and more precise, I feel. I've noticed that sometimes I'll dash dance with Peach after knocking someone on the ground, to apply some sort of pressure, I guess, as well as be able to react to more of their options. My Fox also dashes forward/wave dashes back a lot, which is something I think trickled down from my Peach.

    I was in an argument the other day about how you can't compare characters with good staple approaches (Fox, Falco) to characters with less approaches (Peach, Jigglypuff). The idea that you can approach with anything you want, as long as you have the right reading/spacing is mind boggling, cause now I have to think of more than just dash attack, or FC fair/nair/grab. I approached with down smash a few times, and had general success, as well as FC bairs, but I disregarded those as "funny little things that I really shouldn't do."

    @Fried Ice Cream: I consider myself mid level (mostly), and I certainly don't see or do feigned retreats as much as I should.

    I love that even the top players can constantly find something new and exciting about this game. So glad I switched from Brawl.
     
  23. unknown522

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    yes PP. Melee is soooo fun.

    I really feel like playing after reading that
     
  24. crush

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    yeah i kinda wish that RL was like pokemon except with melee. and instead of team rocket there was team brawl who tried to take over the world and replace everything melee with brawl and you had to stop them.

    on topic: i love playing fox just because of his dash dance lol
     
  25. Veetaak

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    I lol'd at Team Brawl. I think they would try to take away all the advanced techniques from melee whilst having their trollfaces on.
     
  26. Dr Peepee

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    Hmmm yeah it would play on visual cues like seeing Fox's back(at times meaning he is scared and running to them) and also could cause others to want to take the stage. I know that if you WD back you can even SH with extra backward momentum right away so you could get in on things like Puff or Peach that go about it slower or like to get off the ground to take space/control it too(thinking with Bair for the moment).

    I've always been afraid to give up stage personally because that's big in my game, but I suppose that would make my play that much trickier if I played for the stage often only to pretend to give it up for a greater advantage once in a while.

    I guess my only caution in using this tactic is to not get carried away and let your opponent catch on to when you're doing it on purpose/obviously and you can balance it out with solid stage control play as well.

    I really like the idea though and hopefully I'll play with it some soon. Thanks for sharing it! =)

    Peach requires a fair amount of tech skill! Anyone who's seen Armada's silly Nairs can attest to that lol. It's good you play a spacie though, as learning someone with a tech ceiling far above the character you play can make your main's tech skill that much easier.

    And LOL the KDJ(DD'ing when they're on the ground) lives on! I suggest you don't always do that and instead find ways to manipulate their tech options, even though the DD is still a good idea a decent amount of the time. Peach is fairly slow too so that makes the DD that much less threatening. Sort of related to the Fox dash forward to WD back thing, you must make sure the habits/techniques you gain from other characters come over to your character but influence them in a way that maximizes your main's strengths rather than a straight copy of the technique(which usually doesn't work or is less effective anyway). Think about more technical ways to execute OOS options you may not have been able to before, or a techy way to wall/bait approaches with FC Nairs or something of that nature. Take every bit of knowledge you can from your secondary experience and it can really help you out a ton. =)

    Always good to hear more about Peach haha, I don't hear much about the character surprisingly even though Armada has done so well with her.

    Nah if it works, do it. Alllllways. =p

    Also I'm only posting the intelligent stuff(or dressed up stuff) I found out lol. I've made some embarrassingly nooby discoveries in my day that I'm glad I found out I didn't know on my own haha. Nothing comes to mind atm but I definitely remembering being embarrassed about a few different ideas haha.
     
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  27. Wenbobular

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    O c'mon share your nooby discoveries too I'm sure many of us haven't realized them either

    Also accidental side-b with Fox and Falco are the best approaches
    But they have to be on accident
     
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  28. Dr Peepee

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    LMAO @ side B thing it's so true.

    Uhhhh okay I'm gonna think and see if I can remember anything.....

    .......

    Man LOL I really don't remember right now. XD If I somehow remember then I'll post it though I just remember the feeling right now haha sorry. =p
     
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  29. Wenbobular

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    I guess I have that feeling all the time so I'll forgive you this one time ... :lick:

    Look forward to seeing you this Sat ^_^
     
  30. choknater

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    i get hit by so many accidental side-b's
     
  31. SSBMLahti

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    I like it when I use phantasm to recover and I hit the opponent and they get spiked.

    Especially against this one SCRUB who keeps dying from it.
     
  32. genkaku

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    approaching with everything is hard, lol
    I know it gets written off, but I still think that approaching with uair is useful in a situational kind of way. With fox or falco but in different ways.

    and lol at sideB's. I always feel bad when I spike with it for the kill. That's not how I want to get stocks.
     
  33. Matt07

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    Haha, I'll learn how to avoid it...eventually :urg:.
     
  34. crush

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    Matt07 gets trolled really easily.

    @genkoku I like fullhop uair as fox against falco.

    :phone:
     
  35. Dr Peepee

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    I think the Brazilians or someone did it a lot so maybe there's something to it lol. It's a great combo starter for both if you get the correct read(and no CC lol).

    I've killed with so many side Bs now I just kind of shrug it off as silly but not worth being upset over lol.
     
  36. Varist

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    PP, I've been attempting to bring Melee to my high school for the last couple of weeks since summer ended, and the 3-4 people that consistently show up and want to play seem to be really enjoying the game they forgot about as kids, and never really went back to and considered until I started doing this stuff.

    They're really competitive guys (one of them's on JV basketball, one's a debate friend, another actually was invited out of state for some chess thing) and when I told them how deep Melee was compared to all the other fighters around and how much freedom its mechanics give the players that seemed to be the thing that really grabbed their interest.

    My best character, and the one I have the most fun playing with (because I can reliably combo) is Falco, but the only "high-level" play (I am obviously not high-level at all, just relative to them) they are exposed to is my own play. I don't know if some of them have already looked up pro matches of the game on their own, but I don't want to really play up videos yet because the skill gap between them and what is being done now is . . . kind of cruelly demoralizing. You know how it is.

    Basically, they say stuff like "why do you keep using those moves, you drill like every 2 seconds", etc. etc. with b-air and f-smash. I don't want my limitations as a player to infect their idea of Melee as a deep game (as opposed to one where you only use your character's "best moves" as much as you can), but I just can't combo so flexibly.

    If you took the time to read my story, I appreciate it, so the real, direct questions:

    I currently build damage with mobile lasers and mindgamed grabs, sometimes dash attack,

    when they're at pillar % I try to launch them with u-throw, short-hop d-air approach, dash attack.

    I pillar with d-air, if they DI in front of me by the time I've fastfalled back down, I use dtilt, if they DI'd behind me, I use u-tilt, if their trajectory was too far either direction, I attempt to dash attack them.

    I don't know when it's preferable to shine. I really want to incorporate that. How can I tell when to shine to continue pillar?

    I don't know any real "staple" combos other than pillar. As long as I'm pillar comboing I look like I'm spamming d-air. I can look at tons of awesome off-the-wall combos done situationally in videos, but it's harder to realize which combos are more applicable across the board, strings I should be actively looking to start.

    I don't know what I should be looking for after a f-throw (which looks a lot cooler than uthrow). I usually jab them at LOW percents for regrab, and always f-tilt at mid percent to ... get more damage, it's already spaced conveniently, idk, f-tilt's not really doing anything. I have no idea what kind of reliable way to string off f-throw, and it looks really lame when I DD into a surprise grab and do a quick cool-looking f-throw into . . . nothing.

    Oh, and of course your name doesn't have to be Dr PeePee to help me, I'll read any input. Thank you very much.
     
  37. genkaku

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    Mango does it sometimes. Not a lot, by any means, but I'm surprised you didn't pick up on that from him, haha.
    Actually, I asked about using uair as an approach/in shield pressure a few weeks ago specifically because I noticed mango do it in a few different vids.
     
  38. Fortress | Sveet

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    Playing around with falco on battlefield, think ill share a few things i noticed.

    bair autocancels from the top platform (must not fast fall)
    you can full hop bair thru a medium platform then fall back to ground level (slight delayed fast fall)
    ^ same thing, but with uair

    probably other things, im gonna go watch state of the game
     
  39. genkaku

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    Re: your friends. Tell them to find a way to beat it. There is always a counter-measure. If they're as competitive as you make them sound they will and it'll make everyone better for it.
    Re: combos. Watch falco combo videos and say each move out loud as the falco does it. Pay attention to which moves they use when and what patterns are coming out of your mouth.
    When you're on your own practice 0-death combos on cpu foxes (legit combos, just fsmashing a cpu when it misses a tech isn't going to teach you anything). If you get hit, you lose, restart the match. It teaches you a lot to train like this.

    [edit] where are you in AZ?
     
  40. ShroudedOne

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    Apparently, there are some who think that Peach is one of the most technical characters. Of course, things like that are opinion based, but it still makes me chuckle. Though, you're right, she does require some tech skill. FC nairs are not that easy (to learn, anyways), and neither is her wave dash.

    Her dash dance is awful, but it's helped me out in the past before. But it depends on where they've been knocked down, and whether they can roll, or should get up attack, or something.

    "Always good to hear more about Peach." You're like, the only Falco main who would ever say that. So weird.
     

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