~ Fairy Fountain Research Thread: buhbye ol' chum ~

[zeldspazz]

Wall infinites banned?

Yeah. I just checked. Its considered stalling passed 300%

 

[KayLo!]

@AL: Did they tech or no?

@zeldspazz: It's highly unlikely that this could turn into a wall infinite, so I don't think there's any need to worry about it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

@AL: Did they tech or no?

@zeldspazz: It's highly unlikely that this could turn into a wall infinite, so I don't think there's any need to worry about it.

Na they didn't tech it. It was on pretty low percent also. But I think if they did they may of still be in front of me.

 

[zeldspazz]

Ok, been doing some random testing in training mode, just foolin around.
A thing or two I observed:

I was testing dtilt pop-up percentages on Snake. At ~90 percent with a fresh dtilt, Snake gets popped into the air. If he doesnt tech the ground or airdodge/double jump before he hits the ground, you can jab in the animation where he hits the ground. Idk if he can tech again, but if cant tech the after the jab, it may also force a getup again. Thoughts? Its obviously not guaranteed, but its just something I saw *shrugs*

Edit: Oh yeah, also can someone see if Zelda's second hitbox of her dash attack can ever be untechable?

 

[KayLo!]

Kata, I dunno if I ever posted this (I think I did), but here are the half-staled (used 5 times) frame advantage numbers for dtilt. This isn't in the OP, so I have no idea if you just decided not to add it or if I never posted it.

K Prime did the testing.

Dtilt half staled on Mario (I used dtilt 5 times for half stale)

0%: -6
10%: -5
20%: -3
30%: -2
40%: -1
50%: +1
60%: +2
70%: +4
80%: +5
90%: +6
100%: +8
110%: +9
120%: +11
130%: -6 (pop up)

I found this in my PM box from way back in April, rofl.

 

[Kataefi]

Aw thanks! I do miss the frame data you used to give. You know what I'm interested in! - the frames where Zelda pulls her arms back when Fsmashing. Looks like it comes around frame 6 but I don't know.

Also... would be interesting to see if there are any pseudo ways of forcing a get up from the opponent. I should somehow get my interest in brawl to peak again.

 

[MrEh]

Also... would be interesting to see if there are any pseudo ways of forcing a get up from the opponent.

There is.

It's called a Fire Flower.

 

[GodAtHand]

Are we looking for ideas to research stuff still?

I don't know if we ever found out what happened but one time I lightning kicked an olimar and had no stun from the kick, but he did.

Also, in teams once I lightning kicked someone twice with one kick. My partner was close and perhaps slapped him or did something weird that I am not sure of and sort of hit him back into in or something....

I don't know ... just stuff that would be nice to know more about, especially that second one since I think it can be emulated again and would prove useful. The first might have just been some once in a lifetime fluke.

 

[KayLo!]

I think I remember the first one you mentioned, but the second one?

Yeaaaah, gonna need a vid on that or better explanation (exact characters, which stage it was, etc.). Any number of things could've happened.

 

[GodAtHand]

I MIGHT be able to get the video, I know I saved it but it was not on my wii.

For now: We were on Battle Field. He was Snake, His partner was a Yoshi. My partner was Peach. I lightning kicked him very close to the ground, to the point where once the lightning kick ends I should be hitting the ground before being able to do anything else. My partner was close by and she might have Neutral A slapped him or something. He got stunned when I kicked and so did I like normal, but all of a sudden the noise (that electric noise that when all Zelda's hear they go "**** YEAH!") happened again and we both got stunned again and he took more damage.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I don't know if we ever found out what happened but one time I lightning kicked an olimar and had no stun from the kick, but he did.

Also, in teams once I lightning kicked someone twice with one kick. My partner was close and perhaps slapped him or did something weird that I am not sure of and sort of hit him back into in or something...

The most obvious explanation for both of these would be that you were hit by an attack with very little hitstun eliminating the hitlag... or it can be something entirely different.

 

[Alfa]

I MIGHT be able to get the video, I know I saved it but it was not on my wii.

For now: We were on Battle Field. He was Snake, His partner was a Yoshi. My partner was Peach. I lightning kicked him very close to the ground, to the point where once the lightning kick ends I should be hitting the ground before being able to do anything else. My partner was close by and she might have Neutral A slapped him or something. He got stunned when I kicked and so did I like normal, but all of a sudden the noise (that electric noise that when all Zelda's hear they go "**** YEAH!") happened again and we both got stunned again and he took more damage.

Just a theory about the double lightning kick, maybe, because you both were so close to the ground, the Snake hit/teched the ground, thus placing him back into the kick. I think I remember seeing this happen with a Marth on Pirate Ship due to the Bombs, he got hit, hit the ground, then got hit by the same explosion again.

Off topic: It was a doubles match, 2 marths vs an Olimar, the Olimar won, it was epic.

 

[Kataefi]

Some dtilt info:

- 40% trip rate (42% to be exact) - usually between every 3-4 consecutive dtilts a trip should occur but this is entirely by chance.
- A hit that trips can not be SDId
- After the first 4 Dtilts, they become harder to SDI out as Zelda experiences less hitlag
- If someone starts to SDI but trips... it's enough of an advantage to walkup and reset positioning to lock again.

Courtesy of Hotgarbage =D

 

[zeldspazz]

The last two interest me. So youre saying that if they SDI and then trip, you can really just get into a better position to lock again by walking?

 

[MrEh]

The last two interest me. So youre saying that if they SDI and then trip, you can really just get into a better position to lock again by walking?

What it's saying is that even if you're opponent is SDI'ing away from you, you still get enough frame advantage from a trip to walk up to them and continue to Dtilt. Considering that trips give like, a 20 frame advantage, it's not that surprising.

Of course, your opponent can just SDI the followup Dtilt, so it's not as impressive as it seems. And since trips decrease in probably as the Dtilt stales, it's not like you can lock people with it for long periods of time.

 

[Kataefi]

Yep it's true... basically you need to get lucky and hope they trip during your lock so you can essentially follow their SDI.

On average it takes between 2-3 dtilts to escape the lock depending on the character... smaller characters get it the worst in terms of SDI.

 

[GodAtHand]

Well characters with longer trip animations could theoretically be locked for a good while I believe. Who has the longest trip animations?

 

[MrEh]

Well characters with longer trip animations could theoretically be locked for a good while I believe.

iirc, trip animations last for roughly the same time. It's just the distance that the character rolls is different.

And no, you cannot lock someone with it for long periods of time. Given human reaction and how much frame advantage you have, you'd only be able to walk a short distance and squeeze in a couple more Dtilts if your opponent trips at max Dtilt range. Anyone with a brain with SDI out of the followup, so long locks are not possible. And more trips are not likely either, since Dtilt trips less and less as is stales.

 

[Kataefi]

Pika has a pretty long one iirc... MK suffers +1 more trip frames as well and I think DDD has 1 less...

The 40% trip rate doesn't stale. Every 3 Dtilts there should be a trip at least somewhere under 'perfect chances'... but like flipping a coin it's all down to luck.

I don't think it's connected to their trip animations though...If the lock is to be extended you need to hope they trip whilst they SDI (if they dont SDI then they'll just keep getting hit)... it's plausible, especially after 4 dtilts in terms of decay when they become harder to SDI out of.

This is basically a sneaky way of increasing the Dtilt lock a little more in lieu of the chances of them tripping. So you're either lucky or you're not. Best to experiment with this in some friendlies...

 

[GodAtHand]

I heard through the grapevine the Pika has a very long tripping animation so that's why I thought that a longer lock on Pika could be possible.

Edit: Kat beat me to it...

I HAVE done successful extensions of dtilt locking, but it seems to be very high-risk high-reward.

 

[MrEh]

Alternatively, you can walk up to them after a trip, Dtilt, and then Dsmash immediately afterwards to foil their attempts at SDI'ing away.

A grab would also be a nice mixup after the Dtilt if you're greedy, but most of the time I would have done the grab after the initial trip instead. Less risk, but similar reward.

 

[GodAtHand]

Making people think Zelda has an amazing legit lock for even a second is worth the mental mindgames and hitstun imo lol.

 

[MrEh]

If you want mindgames, then you can always use Zelda's taunts after a successful trip.

Sheer shock and frame advantage might make the taunt perfectly safe if your opponent rolls away.

 

[Kataefi]

Alternatively, you can walk up to them after a trip, Dtilt, and then Dsmash immediately afterwards to foil their attempts at SDI'ing away.

A grab would also be a nice mixup after the Dtilt if you're greedy, but most of the time I would have done the grab after the initial trip instead. Less risk, but similar reward.

^ I really like this post... I actually thought you were going to find a way of saying 'no it absolutely will never ever ever EVAHHHH work!' but I'm liking the ideas and this general discussion so far.

Locking them in hope for a trip, walking up to them to reinitate a Dtilt, and then DSmashing instead adds damage and could essentially make them DI wrongly thinking they were gonna get re-locked QCDIing away.

 

[MrEh]

^ I really like this post... I actually thought you were going to find a way of saying 'no it absolutely will never ever ever EVAHHHH work!' but I'm liking the ideas and this general discussion so far.

Dsmashing to foil SDI'ing out has always been used in the Dtilt lock, so there's no reason why it shouldn't work here. Dsmash has always been free damage and positioning advantage, and the payoff for landing a Dsmash out of a lock is much higher then landing another Dtilt. Since if your opponent is being locked, they're most likely at 50% anyway, and Dsmash can potentially knock them offstage if you're near a ledge. (follow up accordingly) If not, then it's an extra guaranteed 9%.

Locking them in hope for a trip, walking up to them to reinitate a Dtilt, and then DSmashing instead adds damage and could essentially make them DI wrongly thinking they were gonna get re-locked QCDIing away

Pretty much.

 

[Kataefi]

@Riot: Have you been extending via a trip or have you just been walking up to them in general and attempting to lock again?

According to PSA there's a +19 advantage... You can buffer a Dtilt out of a walk to eliminate ducking frames. According to hotgarbage there is enough time to walk closely up to them on trip at the farthest point of Dtilt to get in another dtilt. You just need to anticipate a trip and buffer a dtilt from walking.

If they don't trip... Zelda's walk loses those frame advantages and they will be able to retaliate easily.

 

[GodAtHand]

I dtilt and see if they trip or not, I am always prepared for the walk though. Basically:

Dtilt > trip? if yes walk a little bit Dtilt again and repeat.
Dtilt > trip? no... if close enough try again, if not dsmash. AND
Dtilt > trip? yes, but they are very far away > Dash grab.

 

[Kataefi]

Sounds like a neat little flowchart thingy inside your mind!

Try (in some friendlies) and see what happens if you replace option 3's dash grab with a little walking and dtilting again with the whole buffering and stuff.

 

[GodAtHand]

you got it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well characters with longer trip animations could theoretically be locked for a good while I believe. Who has the longest trip animations?

pikachu has the longest trip animation in the game our dtilt trips yet it's considered a bad match up the logic behind that is baffling.

 

[zeldspazz]

Bad =/= disadvantaged

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So like i'm almost certain Zelda has a CG with dthrow with her back to the wall. I tried it on a CPU MK and was able to regrab 4x times.

 

[MrEh]

pikachu has the longest trip animation in the game our dtilt trips yet it's considered a bad match up the logic behind that is baffling.

Zelda can't trip all the time.

And Pika will beat Zelda by running around her and punishing her every move.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Zelda can't trip all the time.

And Pika will beat Zelda by running around her and punishing her every move.

Pffft if run speed decide everything then Sonic would be #1 on the tier list.

 

[MrEh]

I never said run speed decided anything did I?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I never said run speed decided anything did I?

You said run around her how else am i'm supposed to take that?

 

[Kuro1991]

You said run around her how else am i'm supposed to take that?

I'm new to smashboards, but I'm nowhere near new to Smash. He is definetly talking about the factor that Pika can punish your moves by taking your cooldown frames to attack you after positioning himself in a killing spot.

 

[zeldspazz]

Guuuys I think we should try to implement ledgewarping into our game a little more. You can pull of some crazy **** with that

Also, how easy is it to stage-spike with Fsmash similar to how GaW can with his dash attack? Where exactly should the opponent be, and does the opponents DI have anything to do with it?

 

[Kuro1991]

Guuuys I think we should try to implement ledgewarping into our game a little more. You can pull of some crazy **** with that

Also, how easy is it to stage-spike with Fsmash similar to how GaW can with his dash attack? Where exactly should the opponent be, and does the opponents DI have anything to do with it?

You could do N. Love in order to stage spike. You'd just have to make sure you time it correctly as to get the invincible frame, make sure the opponent is positioned for the hit, and make sure the opponent is on the opposite side of the stage. Once he gets hit and caught in the attack, he gets pushed to the bottom of the stage and spiked. It doesn't push them down far, but it is far enough to gimp or edgehog the opponent.

 

[Kuro1991]

Legend tells of a extra jump hidden within N. Love: Is that a fact?