Fact 54 - Mewtwo Is On The Way [Social/General Discussion]

[EbonyRubberWolf]

People are overlooking a critical factoid when it comes to the 'pokemon had more reps than mario in Brawl so of course itd be a matter of fact here'. They may have had more individual characters(Ivysaur, Squirtle, Puff, Pikachu, Lucario, Charizard) but they took up a total of four slots character-wise(Puff, Pikachu, Lucario, PT). This kept the number in check as far as reps went(Zelda followed the same formula. Link, Ganondorf, TL, Zelda/Sheik clocks in at four total character-screen slots), and everything kept parity with Mario. So under the hood, yes Pokemon technically had more characters(if you consider transformation characters individuals rather than part of a greater whole), but the representation was the exact same for all three big series. With Mewtwo's planning, that number WOULD have exceeded Mario, EXCEPT that Doc was slated to come back too, which would have AGAIN engineered parity between them.

 

[Xauric]

People are overlooking a critical factoid when it comes to the 'pokemon had more reps than mario in Brawl so of course itd be a matter of fact here'. They may have had more individual characters(Ivysaur, Squirtle, Puff, Pikachu, Lucario, Charizard) but they took up a total of four slots character-wise(Puff, Pikachu, Lucario, PT). This kept the number in check as far as reps went(Zelda followed the same formula. Link, Ganondorf, TL, Zelda/Sheik clocks in at four total character-screen slots), and everything kept parity with Mario. So under the hood, yes Pokemon technically had more characters(if you consider transformation characters individuals rather than part of a greater whole), but the representation was the exact same for all three big series. With Mewtwo's planning, that number WOULD have exceeded Mario, EXCEPT that Doc was slated to come back too, which would have AGAIN engineered parity between them.

That may be the case with Brawl, but remember, the 4/8 direct stated that all characters that used to change mid-match would be their own characters now. Which means Sheik and Zero Suit Samus are their own characters. Thus, were the Pokemon Trainer in, that would make the Pokemon character count Six. Will this have an effect on the roster count? I have no idea, I'm not Sakurai. But it's definitely something to consider, considering he's never scaled back on any portion of the roster.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

That may be the case with Brawl, but remember, the 4/8 direct stated that all characters that used to change mid-match would be their own characters now. Which means Sheik and Zero Suit Samus are their own characters. Thus, were the Pokemon Trainer in, that would make the Pokemon character count Six. Will this have an effect on the roster count? I have no idea, I'm not Sakurai. But it's definitely something to consider, considering he's never scaled back on any portion of the roster.

Eh? Where's this line coming from? Mewtwo is the odd man out here, because precedent has Jigglypuff coming in at #5 on the Pokemon Roster. PT is dead and done, as far as I see things. His main gimmick WAS the transformation, and with that out the window, so too goes him. I don't see a 6th Mario OR Zelda rep happening, and the lineup aligns nicely once more, just as it did in Brawl(4/4/4 in Brawl, 5/5/5 in SSB4). This alignment is INCLUDING the Sheik/Zelda split, as they now truly count as separate characters.

 

[I_hate_usernames]

I mustn't have read the laws in which is says that it is admonitory for Zelda/Mario/Pokemon reps to be all the same amount!

 

[Steelia]

I mustn't have read the laws in which is says that it is admonitory for Zelda/Mario/Pokemon reps to be all the same amount!

Or the Mario franchise having the biggest number of reps; it had 5 in SSBM, one more than Pokemon, technically shared with Zelda.

The only "excuse" I have that Pokemon could be allowed more reps than the Mario franchise is the sheer number of Pokemon available. Where Mario has a smaller pool of applicable/popular characters to choose from, Pokemon has at the very least dozens. Who to even name... Mewtwo, Zoroark, Lucario, Blaziken, Sceptile, Grovyle even more, Deoxys, Darkrai, Jiggs, Pikachu, Pichu still has a few fans, Greninja, Charizard, Blastoise, Venusaur, many other evolved/unevolved starter Pokemon, so on and so on. With so many to choose from, and with the Pokemon franchise booming as it is, it'd make sense to give it a bigger slice of the roster.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

I hope mewtwo gets shown at E3 and not after.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

I mustn't have read the laws in which is says that it is admonitory for Zelda/Mario/Pokemon reps to be all the same amount!

It's not some unseen law, it's a pattern. It's happened three times so far. Mario is never eclipsed by another series as far as roster count. N64 = Mario + Luigi vs Pikachu + Jigglypuff. Melee = Mario, Doc, Luigi, Peach, Boswer vs Mewtwo, Pikachu, Jiggs, Pichu. Brawl = Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser vs Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, PT. SSB4(presumably) = Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina vs Pikachu, Lucario, Greninja, Charizard, Jigglypuff. Another pattern is the(admittedly fan-made) O12 status, in which the original twelve characters have ALWAYS made it in time and time again, and it's THAT which makes me think Mewtwo isn't in. There's zero evidence of the pattern breaking.

Or the Mario franchise having the biggest number of reps; it had 5 in SSBM, one more than Pokemon, technically shared with Zelda.

The only "excuse" I have that Pokemon could be allowed more reps than the Mario franchise is the sheer number of Pokemon available. Where Mario has a smaller pool of applicable/popular characters to choose from, Pokemon has at the very least dozens. Who to even name... Mewtwo, Zoroark, Lucario, Blaziken, Sceptile, Grovyle even more, Deoxys, Darkrai, Jiggs, Pikachu, Pichu still has a few fans, Greninja, Charizard, Blastoise, Venusaur, many other evolved/unevolved starter Pokemon, so on and so on. With so many to choose from, and with the Pokemon franchise booming as it is, it'd make sense to give it a bigger slice of the roster.

This isn't Pokken Fighters. You're right, if characters were represented based on sheer saturation, we'd have tons of Pokemon and FE characters utterly crowding out the rest of the cast. Which would be a bad thing if you're not a fan of Pokemon or FE, and more importantly, it would disrupt precedent and pattern.

 

[ppbto]

It's not some unseen law, it's a pattern. It's happened three times so far. Mario is never eclipsed by another series as far as roster count. N64 = Mario + Luigi vs Pikachu + Jigglypuff. Melee = Mario, Doc, Luigi, Peach, Boswer vs Mewtwo, Pikachu, Jiggs, Pichu. Brawl = Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser vs Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, PT. SSB4(presumably) = Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina vs Pikachu, Lucario, Greninja, Charizard, Jigglypuff. Another pattern is the(admittedly fan-made) O12 status, in which the original twelve characters have ALWAYS made it in time and time again, and it's THAT which makes me think Mewtwo isn't in. There's zero evidence of the pattern breaking.



This isn't Pokken Fighters. You're right, if characters were represented based on sheer saturation, we'd have tons of Pokemon and FE characters utterly crowding out the rest of the cast. Which would be a bad thing if you're not a fan of Pokemon or FE, and more importantly, it would disrupt precedent and pattern.

You know, right? Patterns can be broken and Sakurai loves to being unpredictable. So, I'll not recommend trying to predict Sakurai based on patterns.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

You know, right? Patterns can be broken and Sakurai loves to being unpredictable. So, I'll not recommend trying to predict Sakurai based on patterns.

While his character SELECTION can seem random, there is a bit of a pattern to it when things are pulled back. Being closer to the game's release makes it much simpler to extrapolate as well. You're right, ultimately no one can see the future, but patterns provide excellent guesses to such, and no less than two are converging here(Jigg's O12 status and the 5/5/5 representation).

 

[Gnarleysquid]

It's not some unseen law, it's a pattern. It's happened three times so far. Mario is never eclipsed by another series as far as roster count. N64 = Mario + Luigi vs Pikachu + Jigglypuff. Melee = Mario, Doc, Luigi, Peach, Boswer vs Mewtwo, Pikachu, Jiggs, Pichu. Brawl = Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser vs Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, PT. SSB4(presumably) = Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Rosalina vs Pikachu, Lucario, Greninja, Charizard, Jigglypuff. Another pattern is the(admittedly fan-made) O12 status, in which the original twelve characters have ALWAYS made it in time and time again, and it's THAT which makes me think Mewtwo isn't in. There's zero evidence of the pattern breaking.



This isn't Pokken Fighters. You're right, if characters were represented based on sheer saturation, we'd have tons of Pokemon and FE characters utterly crowding out the rest of the cast. Which would be a bad thing if you're not a fan of Pokemon or FE, and more importantly, it would disrupt precedent and pattern.

Let me ask you this: Do you consider Sheik or Zero Suit Samus newcomers in the next Smash games? I'm going to presume the answer to that is 'no', despite each character having their own highlightable box this time around. Sakurai doesn't either, which is why they aren't labelled as such on the official website. Now, if Ivysaur and Squirtle were revealed to return (an unlikely scenario at this point), they would be considered veterans as well. This is because Pokemon had 6 reps in Brawl.

The thing about transformations is that each subsequent transformation takes just as much time to develop as a standalone character, which is why Sakurai has opted to just award them they're own spot to more accurately depict the scale of the roster.

I find it silly that people focus too much on the number of boxes on the character select screen. Most importantly, if Sakurai had the time, the next character he would have added was going to be Mewtwo – as is evident by the amount of data that can be found on Brawl's disc for the character. That would have given Pokemon 7 reps in total.

I can't speak for Sakurai, but if you want to talk about balancing the representation of characters, there really doesn't appear to be any rule set in stone. Sakurai does what he wants and if he is listening to the community as closely as he appears to be then Mewtwo can't be written off as "the sixth rep in a five rep pattern;" especially when that pattern has already proven to be false in Brawl (Mario 4/Zelda 5/Pokemon 6). Wait... 4-5-6? ANOTHER PATTERN!

 

[Louie G.]

Mewtwo has been planned for every Smash so far.
I doubt Smash 5 will be any different, especially considering his popularity and importance as of late.

Sakurai isn't going to stop development on Mewtwo just because of "slots".

Characters will get in on their own merits. Mewtwo definitely has merits.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Mewtwo has been planned for every Smash so far.
I doubt Smash 5 will be any different, especially considering his popularity and importance as of late.

Sakurai isn't going to stop development on Mewtwo just because of "slots".

Characters will get in on their own merits. Mewtwo definitely has merits.

My seconf biggest reason why i think he is going to be playable this time.

And hopefully for here on out.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Let me ask you this: Do you consider Sheik or Zero Suit Samus newcomers in the next Smash games? I'm going to presume the answer to that is 'no', despite each character having their own highlightable box this time around. Sakurai doesn't either, which is why they aren't labelled as such on the official website. Now, if Ivysaur and Squirtle were revealed to return (an unlikely scenario at this point), they would be considered veterans as well. This is because Pokemon had 6 reps in Brawl.

Debatable. ZSS isn't new, that's true, but there are now ramifications of her being made fully separate and there must be real estate on the screen dedicated to that. This happened with Sheik/Zelda too. And notice, with their split, they FIT THE PATTERN. When they were still 'one' character, THEY FIT THE PATTERN. The long and short of it is, you do NOT outnumber the Mario slots on the character screen. Period. It has NEVER happened. Here's the proof.

SSB64: , vs vs , (2/1/2)
SSBM: ,,,, vs ,/,, vs ,,, (5/4/4)
SSBB: ,,, vs ,,, vs ,,, (4/4/4)
(Speculation)SSB4: ,,,, vs ,,,, vs ,,,, (5/5/5)

The thing about transformations is that each subsequent transformation takes just as much time to develop as a standalone character, which is why Sakurai has opted to just award them they're own spot to more accurately depict the scale of the roster.

I find it silly that people focus too much on the number of boxes on the character select screen. Most importantly, if Sakurai had the time, the next character he would have added was going to be Mewtwo – as is evident by the amount of data that can be found on Brawl's disc for the character. That would have given Pokemon 7 reps in total.

Nothing can say what was the cause of Mewtwo's exclusion from Brawl. People can turn and point at the idea that time constraints happened, which rings false to me because why WOULDN'T you finish your heavy-hitters first, and leave second-stringers to the wayside in case that time crunch happens? Maybe they got to a point in development where they just gave up on him. Maybe they thought he didn't fit as playable material, maybe they figured he could work better as a boss but it was beyond the point of no return. I don't understand why, if a character was half-finished already and then scrapped, why starting completely over would increase their chances. Electricity takes the path of least resistance, and I suspect development time and energy does as well.

I can't speak for Sakurai, but if you want to talk about balancing the representation of characters, there really doesn't appear to be any rule set in stone. Sakurai does what he wants and if he is listening to the community as closely as he appears to be then Mewtwo can't be written off as "the sixth rep in a five rep pattern;" especially when that pattern has already proven to be false in Brawl (Mario 4/Zelda 5/Pokemon 6). Wait... 4-5-6? ANOTHER PATTERN!

If you don't count transformation characters as separate representative slots, then the pattern remains unbroken(4/4/4). Characters are split now, and take up their own slots ON THE SCREEN. Otherwise, why not have Sheik and Zelda or Samus and ZSS selectable in the old method(pick the portrait on the character confirmation screen at the bottom)?

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Debatable. ZSS isn't new, that's true, but there are now ramifications of her being made fully separate and there must be real estate on the screen dedicated to that. This happened with Sheik/Zelda too. And notice, with their split, they FIT THE PATTERN. When they were still 'one' character, THEY FIT THE PATTERN. The long and short of it is, you do NOT outnumber the Mario slots on the character screen. Period. It has NEVER happened. Here's the proof.

SSB64: , vs vs , (2/1/2)
SSBM: ,,,, vs ,/,, vs ,,, (5/4/4)
SSBB: ,,, vs ,,, vs ,,, (4/4/4)
(Speculation)SSB4: ,,,, vs ,,,, vs ,,,, (5/5/5)



Nothing can say what was the cause of Mewtwo's exclusion from Brawl. People can turn and point at the idea that time constraints happened, which rings false to me because why WOULDN'T you finish your heavy-hitters first, and leave second-stringers to the wayside in case that time crunch happens? Maybe they got to a point in development where they just gave up on him. Maybe they thought he didn't fit as playable material, maybe they figured he could work better as a boss but it was beyond the point of no return. I don't understand why, if a character was half-finished already and then scrapped, why starting completely over would increase their chances. Electricity takes the path of least resistance, and I suspect development time and energy does as well.



If you don't count transformation characters as separate representative slots, then the pattern remains unbroken(4/4/4). Characters are split now, and take up their own slots ON THE SCREEN. Otherwise, why not have Sheik and Zelda or Samus and ZSS selectable in the old method(pick the portrait on the character confirmation screen at the bottom)?

Ok makes sense

But really im still confident this will happen in smash 4

,,,, Vs ,,,, Vs , ,,,, 5/5/6

I chain can break eventually. In my opinion.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Ok makes sense

But really im still confident this will happen in smash 4

,,,, Vs ,,,, Vs , ,,,, 5/5/6

I chain can break eventually. In my opinion.

That's fair to hope for, I just wanted to let folk know that evidence is starting to trickle together. Time constraints(on SSB4's roster, Summer 2014 is NOT far away), the final big even before the release(E3's even CLOSER), and only 29 characters revealed are starting to paint a picture that I don't think a lot of players will like, and I suspect a blowout similar to what happened with MvC's roster suddenly plunging in number between 2 and 3(another other gameplay quirks) may happen here.

 

[Sehnsucht]

I would think that the reason Sonic had priority over Mewtwo is that, as a Third-Party newcomer, Sonic would have had priority over anyone being worked on at that time -- and this, due to the high-profile quality of Third-Party inclusions. If Sonic was indeed added late into development, he would naturally have shot up to the top of the list of characters needed to be finished. When push came to shove, Sonic would need to be finished before all others, and we thus get the Forbidden Seven (at least, as per the widely held inference).

Concerning slots on the character select screen, is it that Sora intentionally included this Mario Parity in each Smash installment, or is it instead that it just turned out that no other series has outnumbered Mario by means of slots? Which is to say, that in the process of selecting worthy additions to subsequent Smash games, the Mario slots were simply never (thus far) outnumbered on the CSS? Is it a pattern by design, or a convenient turn of events?

This isn't to say that they don't take into account balance between series and their associated characters (they clearly do, as they give more notable franchises more CSS real estate). But if they have the required time and resources, and if (in this case) both Jiggs and Mewtwo are seen as viable and worthy inclusions, will they in fact forsake one for the other, just to make sure the CSS is neat and tidy, and that the Mario column or row is not eclipsed by a mere single slot?

Having one Pokemon slot over the Mario slots shouldn't be garish if they format the CSS in a sensible manner. And in what may be a tenuous idea, the Mario series has auxiliary representation via its spin-off series (Yoshi, Wario, and arguably Donkey Kong), so it's bigger than Pokemon on the CSS in spirit anyway (even if not by actual franchise classification).

Place me in the camp that neither has qualms with Pokemon eclipsing Mario on the CSS, and who would think that Sakurai and Friends would be willing to break "tradition" (whether actual or inferred) for the sake of including worthy characters.

 

[C3CC]

All I know is that if Mewtwo doesn't come back I'm going to hate Sakurai forever. And while I know that Jigglypuff is not going anywhere, I hope she gets cut. She just doesn't make sense in the series anymore. I also don't buy that "Original 12 won't ever be cut" bull**** because Sakurai has never even said that (and if someone has proof of him saying it, please do share it because I've searched for YEARS and have never found anything).

 

[Morbi]

All I know is that if Mewtwo doesn't come back I'm going to hate Sakurai forever. And while I know that Jigglypuff is not going anywhere, I hope she gets cut. She just doesn't make sense in the series anymore. I also don't buy that "Original 12 won't ever be cut" bull**** because Sakurai has never even said that (and if someone has proof of him saying it, please do share it because I've searched for YEARS and have never found anything).

Implying that the only positive aspect of Jigglypuff's character is the notion that she is a member Original 12.

I will not "hate" Sakurai for not including a character, however. If that was the case, I would already hate him. If I recall correctly, Mewtwo was left out of Brawl. I could be mistaken though, I would have to go back and check.

 

[False Sense]

If I recall correctly, Mewtwo was left out of Brawl. I could be mistaken though, I would have to go back and check.

You're joking, right?

 

[Morbi]

You're joking, right?

Um... yes? Of course, I am joking. I am just not very funny, so it is difficult to tell.

 

[Gnarleysquid]

Debatable. ZSS isn't new, that's true, but there are now ramifications of her being made fully separate and there must be real estate on the screen dedicated to that. This happened with Sheik/Zelda too. And notice, with their split, they FIT THE PATTERN. When they were still 'one' character, THEY FIT THE PATTERN. The long and short of it is, you do NOT outnumber the Mario slots on the character screen. Period. It has NEVER happened. Here's the proof.

SSB64: , vs vs , (2/1/2)
SSBM: ,,,, vs ,/,, vs ,,, (5/4/4)
SSBB: ,,, vs ,,, vs ,,, (4/4/4)
(Speculation)SSB4: ,,,, vs ,,,, vs ,,,, (5/5/5)

I'm sorry, but this "pattern" simply does not exist. What you've described is a layout of 2/1/2, 5/4/4, and 4/4/4, that's not a pattern, that's for all intent and purposes a random assortment of playable characters. If you could at all point to any concrete patterns (i.e. Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda sharing the same number of representitives throughout the Smash franchise) then I'd agree you have something, but there's no credence to what you're saying.

Sakurai has never stated that Mario has to have the largest number of playable characters or that it can't be surpassed, and there's no evidence to suggest that will remain the case. Of course, basing this on slot space is trivial when there were already more characters playable from the Zelda and Pokemon series in Brawl. And dedicated real estate? Roster spots are a digital commodity, not lakeside condos. You can cram an awful lot of respectably sized roster spots on a single screen.

Nothing can say what was the cause of Mewtwo's exclusion from Brawl. People can turn and point at the idea that time constraints happened, which rings false to me because why WOULDN'T you finish your heavy-hitters first, and leave second-stringers to the wayside in case that time crunch happens? Maybe they got to a point in development where they just gave up on him. Maybe they thought he didn't fit as playable material, maybe they figured he could work better as a boss but it was beyond the point of no return. I don't understand why, if a character was half-finished already and then scrapped, why starting completely over would increase their chances. Electricity takes the path of least resistance, and I suspect development time and energy does as well.

Admittedly, that's true. It's hard to say what was the cause of Mewtwo not being included in Brawl. The character does have more assets than any of the other character files that were found within the confines of the disc, however, and if Sakurai truly planned on making him a boss then he would have – meaning Raquaza wouldn't have filled that role.

As for not fitting as playable material? What?

If you don't count transformation characters as separate representative slots, then the pattern remains unbroken(4/4/4). Characters are split now, and take up their own slots ON THE SCREEN. Otherwise, why not have Sheik and Zelda or Samus and ZSS selectable in the old method(pick the portrait on the character confirmation screen at the bottom)?

Sakurai counts transformation characters as separate characters and he has for years. He has stated that Brawl had 39 characters in it (source), so the "finite roster slots" argument doesn't hold up. He's finally separated them, grouping them together would be silly because they're wholly original characters. It's about time he finally separated them.

As for the fact that they'll be taking up their own slots "ON THE SCREEN," I'd like to say thank you. I honestly believed they'd show up somewhere else.

Ribbing aside, your points hold no validation. All we are is hopeful that Mewtwo returns, and given the fan outcry for such (not to mention the immense relevancy the character now has) it'd be odd if it didn't make the cut. Of course, there's no predicting Sakurai, and with E3 2014 quickly approaching – as well as the 3DS release – we'll know sooner rather than later what awaits fans.

 

[Morbi]

I'm sorry, but this "pattern" simply does not exist. What you've described is a layout of 2/1/2, 5/4/4, and 5/5/5, that's not a pattern, that's for all intent and purposes a random assortment of playable characters. If you could at all point to any concrete patterns (i.e. Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda sharing the same number of representitives throughout the Smash franchise) then I'd agree you have something, but there's no credence to what you're saying.

Sakurai has never stated that Mario has to have the largest number of playable characters or that it can't be surpassed, and there's no evidence to suggest that will remain the case. Of course, basing this on slot space is trivial when there were already more characters playable from the Zelda and Pokemon series in Brawl. And dedicated real estate? Roster spots are a digital commodity, not lakeside condos. You can cram an awful lot of respectably sized roster spots on a single screen.


Admittedly, that's true. It's hard to say what was the cause of Mewtwo not being included in Brawl. The character does have more assets than any of the other character files that were found within the confines of the disc, however, and if Sakurai truly planned on making him a boss then he would have – meaning Raquaza wouldn't have filled that role.

As for not fitting as playable material? What?


Sakurai counts transformation characters as separate characters and he has for years. He has stated that Brawl had 39 characters in it (source), so the "finite roster slots" argument doesn't hold up. He's finally separated them, grouping them together would be silly because they're wholly original characters. It's about time he finally separated them.

As for the fact that they'll be taking up their own slots "ON THE SCREEN," I'd like to say thank you. I honestly believed they'd show up somewhere else.

Ribbing aside, your points hold no validation. All we are is hopeful that Mewtwo returns, and given the fan outcry for such (not to mention the immense relevancy the character now has) it'd be odd if it didn't make the cut. Of course, there's no predicting Sakurai, and with E3 2014 quickly approaching – as well as the 3DS release – we'll know sooner rather than later what awaits fans.

I certainly agree with this sentiment; however, the pattern does exist, objectively speaking. I am not insinuating that it means anything, but to assert that it does not exist would be blatant confirmation bias.

 

[Sehnsucht]

I certainly agree with this sentiment; however, the pattern does exist, objectively speaking. I am not insinuating that it means anything, but to assert that it does not exist would be blatant confirmation bias.

This seems sensible. There's a clear distribution of characters on the select screen by franchise in every Smash title, but whether this pattern means anything to Sakurai/Sora/Bamco/Nintendo is the actual question at hand.

 

[Gnarleysquid]

I certainly agree with this sentiment; however, the pattern does exist, objectively speaking. I am not insinuating that it means anything, but to assert that it does not exist would be blatant confirmation bias.

I'm sorry, I should have clarified. Yes, Mario hasn't been usurped as the king of roster icons, although it's hard to establish a definitive pattern after just three iterations. Character-wise it's been dethroned handily by both Zelda and Pokemon, and it appears that all characters (be them transformations or not) are what Sakurai measures the game by. Now that transformations hold no place in the new games, however, I'd wager that it'll change. Of course, we likely won't know until the game is in our hands.

 

[C3CC]

Implying that the only positive aspect of Jigglypuff's character is the notion that she is a member Original 12.

I will not "hate" Sakurai for not including a character, however. If that was the case, I would already hate him. If I recall correctly, Mewtwo was left out of Brawl. I could be mistaken though, I would have to go back and check.

I wasn't implying anything, hence why I said "I ALSO don't buy...". Jigglypuff has many positive things, but let's be honest, she's not even that popular to be part of the Smash roster. I think Super Smash Bros. is supposed to be a celebration of the characters' "stardom" and Jigglypuff is far from being one of the most popular characters. Her popularity has been given to her by Smash exclusively, as almost no one uses Jigglypuff in the Pokémon games. She was a recurring character in the anime, but that was like, what, 12 years ago? Nobody remembers her anymore (at least not the younger generation, which judging by Greninja's inclusion appears to be the main target of the game).

And I meant that I'll hate him for not adding him after what he said. "We're thinking about it". Dude, you said that, so you'd better work on that character or the fans won't tolerate such tease. If he had stayed quiet and Mewtwo doesn't appear again, I suppose there's nothing we can do. But after giving us hope like that? No, that can't be accepted. Especially after all the other reasons that favor Mewtwo that I've mentioned earlier.

 

[Morbi]

I wasn't implying anything, hence why I said "I ALSO don't buy...". Jigglypuff has many positive things, but let's be honest, she's not even that popular to be part of the Smash roster. I think Super Smash Bros. is supposed to be a celebration of the characters' "stardom" and Jigglypuff is far from being one of the most popular characters. Her popularity has been given to her by Smash exclusively, as almost no one uses Jigglypuff in the Pokémon games. She was a recurring character in the anime, but that was like, what, 12 years ago? Nobody remembers her anymore (at least not the younger generation, which judging by Greninja's inclusion appears to be the main target of the game).

And I meant that I'll hate him for not adding him after what he said. "We're thinking about it". Dude, you said that, so you'd better work on that character or the fans won't tolerate such tease. If he had stayed quiet and Mewtwo doesn't appear again, I suppose there's nothing we can do. But after giving us hope like that? No, that can't be accepted. Especially after all the other reasons that favor Mewtwo that I've mentioned earlier.

I suppose you are correct, the circumstances are slightly different this time around. I do not believe that it is enough to "hate" him as a person though.

 

[woopyfrood]

It's not some unseen law, it's a pattern.

Sakurai lives to break patterns. Aside from that, the answer is obvious: Mario will receive a sixth rep.

I suppose you are correct, the circumstances are slightly different this time around. I do not believe that it is enough to "hate" him as a person though.

This. To blame Sakurai for every injustice would be ignorant. I doubt his power is absolute; executive meddling is not out of the question. Who knows where the liability actually lies?

 

[Toxicroaker]

This. To blame Sakurai for every injustice would be ignorant. I doubt his power is absolute; executive meddling is not out of the question. Who knows where the liability actually lies?

Sakurai knows...

 

[Deleted member]

Before I begin my statements, allow me to say that Mewtwo is hands down my most desired character for this iteration of Smash Bros. I, like many of the other members who frequent this thread, desire him greatly, and Mewtwo not only is my favorite character in Smash Bros. but also one of my favorite characters of all time from any Video Game Franchise.
Now then, on to my discourse:

I suppose you are correct, the circumstances are slightly different this time around. I do not believe that it is enough to "hate" him as a person though.

I agree with this to the utmost extent. After all, Sakurai stating that his team was "thinking about it" is by no means an affirmation of anything other than the fact that Mewtwo's name was mentioned within a Smash Bros. context. Certainly, Mewtwo has his status as one of the most desired characters and a character who was planned to be included in every past iteration of Smash Bros.; however, what so often is left out of consideration is the fact that fan desires are often at best, a small factor in the decision making for characters in Smash Bros.

Sakurai's confirmation that Mewtwo had been mentioned in context of Smash Bros. does not bind him to any sort of plan of action. His admission by no means was an inherent "teasing" of the fans, something like Sakurai's mention of "other boss characters" as an indirect reference to Ridley was, and as it stands right now Mewtwo has yet to be involved in any sort of related "teasing" scheme. Furthermore, why do some fans feel such a sense of entitlement as a result of Sakurai's comment? His thinking about Mewtwo is no different then the random thoughts any individual may have on a given day about any random subject. For example, if I'm the manager of a local grocery store, you submit your application, call me for a follow-up, and I tell you that I am "thinking about hiring you" would you then be automatically justified in having some sense of entitlement with regards to getting the job? "Well, you told me you were thinking of hiring me, so you better do it, if not then you're a jerk and your store is terrible." No, after all, what if you were completely unqualified for the job or we just weren't able to hire new employees due to recent cutbacks? Mewtwo, of course, is certainly "qualified" to have his place on the roster, but he, like a job applicant at a local business, ultimately has no concrete entitlement to being a part of the roster, as Sakurai has shown, he will cut and add characters as he pleases so long as he believes that the added character can increase the overall quality of the game, much like a manager will hire and fire certain employees for the sake improving the overall quality of the store. As such, the fans should not go into a disapproval-fueled frenzy if Mewtwo is indeed not included in the final roster of the game. Sakurai's statement was not a definitive statement, "We are definitely including Mewtwo in Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS," in fact, it was a neutral statement made on the potential content for a game that was and is still a work in progress. As such, any pure hatred he receives is truly and completely unjustified.

All Sakurai did was state that Mewtwo was a thought, he made no definitive mention whatsoever about whether or not Mewtwo would return for the upcoming game. People may classify Sakurai's statement however they wish, but no matter how you choose to do so, there is currently no possible justification for subjecting Sakurai to such hatred simply because he made what is ultimately an indefinite statement that is perpetually susceptible to a change of mind.


Thank you for taking the time to read my opinions on the matter.

EDIT: Bolded the word often since some seem to believe I mean that fan desires mean absolutely nothing. Obviously counter-examples exist such as Sonic, Snake and Mega Man, but those are 3 characters out of rosters of 30+ characters (with Snake possibly not returning for Smash 4). As such, relative to the final character count of the game, fan desires are indeed small, the entire roster is not based solely off of fan popularity.

 

[woopyfrood]

I agree, but I wouldn't disapprove of Sakurai because of some delusion that he had given his word, I'd disapprove because Mewtwo simply wasn't in the game.

 

[Gimj]

Before I begin my statements, allow me to say that Mewtwo is hands down my most desired character for this iteration of Smash Bros. I, like many of the other members who frequent this thread, desire him greatly, and Mewtwo not only is my favorite character in Smash Bros. but also one of my favorite characters of all time from any Video Game Franchise.
Now then, on to my discourse:


I agree with this to the utmost extent. After all, Sakurai stating that his team was "thinking about it" is by no means an affirmation of anything other than the fact that Mewtwo's name was mentioned within a Smash Bros. context. Certainly, Mewtwo has his status as one of the most desired characters and a character who was planned to be included in every past iteration of Smash Bros.; however, what so often is left out of consideration is the fact that fan desires are often at best, a small factor in the decision making for characters in Smash Bros.

Sakurai's confirmation that Mewtwo had been mentioned in context of Smash Bros. does not bind him to any sort of plan of action. His admission by no means was an inherent "teasing" of the fans, something like Sakurai's mention of "other boss characters" as an indirect reference to Ridley was, and as it stands right now Mewtwo has yet to be involved in any sort of related "teasing" scheme. Furthermore, why do some fans feel such a sense of entitlement as a result of Sakurai's comment? His thinking about Mewtwo is no different then the random thoughts any individual may have on a given day about any random subject. For example, if I'm the manager of a local grocery store, you submit your application, call me for a follow-up, and I tell you that I am "thinking about hiring you" would you then be automatically justified in having some sense of entitlement with regards to getting the job? "Well, you told me you were thinking of hiring me, so you better do it, if not then you're a jerk and your store is terrible." No, after all, what if you were completely unqualified for the job or we just weren't able to hire new employees due to recent cutbacks? Mewtwo, of course, is certainly "qualified" to have his place on the roster, but he, like a job applicant at a local business, ultimately has no concrete entitlement to being a part of the roster, as Sakurai has shown, he will cut and add characters as he pleases so long as he believes that the added character can increase the overall quality of the game, much like a manager will hire and fire certain employees for the sake improving the overall quality of the store. As such, the fans should not go into a disapproval-fueled frenzy if Mewtwo is indeed not included in the final roster of the game. Sakurai's statement was not a definitive statement, "We are definitely including Mewtwo in Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS," in fact, it was a neutral statement made on the potential content for a game that was and is still a work in progress. As such, any pure hatred he receives is truly and completely unjustified.

All Sakurai did was state that Mewtwo was a thought, he made no definitive mention whatsoever about whether or not Mewtwo would return for the upcoming game. People may classify Sakurai's statement however they wish, but no matter how you choose to do so, there is currently no possible justification for subjecting Sakurai to such hatred simply because he made what is ultimately an indefinite statement that is perpetually susceptible to a change of mind.


Thank you for taking the time to read my opinions on the matter.

Fan desire is not a "small" consideration, at all. If by "small" you mean "big" then yes, it is small. Fan desire got two non-Nintendo characters into Smash Bros.

Of course it is not ultimately up to the fans, but to say that Sakurai takes a "small" importance into fan desire is just bogus.

 

[ZombieVito]

All Sakurai did was state that Mewtwo was a thought, he made no definitive mention whatsoever about whether or not Mewtwo would return for the upcoming game. People may classify Sakurai's statement however they wish, but no matter how you choose to do so, there is currently no possible justification for subjecting Sakurai to such hatred simply because he made what is ultimately an indefinite statement that is perpetually susceptible to a change of mind.

The problem with the statement is that nobody ****ing asked him for it and he still said it. Why talk and hype for nothing? That would make him a ****. The hatred will be justified.

 

[PLATINUM7]

The problem with the statement is that nobody ****ing asked him for it and he still said it. Why talk and hype for nothing? That would make him a ****. The hatred will be justified.

Not to mention he hardly ever talks about who he's considering for Smash. He usually just goes no comment but for this he answered he was considering it when he wasn't even asked. I think it would be a slap in the face to not include him now.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Just looked at the week review for this week

WHY DOES MEWTWO ONLY HAVE 3 VOTES OF HE WILL BE SHOWN AT E3?!?!?

 

[TumblrFamous]

Just looked at the week review for this week

WHY DOES MEWTWO ONLY HAVE 3 VOTES OF HE WILL BE SHOWN AT E3?!?!?

I dunno. The only characters I can truly see are Ice Climbers, Meta Knight, Wario, and Ness/Lucas. Everyone else, I'm not sure. I don't know who else can be revealed, but Mewtwo would be a good reveal.

 

[C3CC]

The problem with the statement is that nobody ****ing asked him for it and he still said it. Why talk and hype for nothing? That would make him a ****. The hatred will be justified.

Not to mention he hardly ever talks about who he's considering for Smash. He usually just goes no comment but for this he answered he was considering it when he wasn't even asked. I think it would be a slap in the face to not include him now.

Exactly these two things.

 

[Makaronileo]

Are they gonna reclone Mewtwo??? Or, i meaan didn't lucario play as a clone to Mewtwo?

 

[Polo]

Are they gonna reclone Mewtwo??? Or, i meaan didn't lucario play as a clone to Mewtwo?

The only move Lucario had that was cloned from Mewtwo was his neutral-B. You could also argue that they had similar floaty jump physics and a vaguely similar forward smash, but that's as far as it goes really.

Besides, if Mewtwo is back, his moveset will probably change in at least a small way, as I'm pretty sure they'll incorporate Psystrike into his moveset somehow (since it's his signature move, and because it didn't exist yet when Mewtwo's moveset was made for Melee due to only being introduced in Pokemon Black/White).

IMO, I think the only reason why they wouldn't put Psystrike in his moveset is if he uses it in his final smash instead. His final smash is likely to be Mega Mewtwo Y to balance out Mega Charizard X, but if they are having difficulty making MMY a transformation (due to his tail being in a different place), they could just have him transform, fire off Psystrike, then revert to regular Mewtwo. Or maybe it could be similar to Yoshi's FS, with Mewtwo flying around as MMY and firing Psystrikes or something.

 

[ultimatekoopa]

That's fair to hope for, I just wanted to let folk know that evidence is starting to trickle together. Time constraints(on SSB4's roster, Summer 2014 is NOT far away), the final big even before the release(E3's even CLOSER), and only 29 characters revealed are starting to paint a picture that I don't think a lot of players will like, and I suspect a blowout similar to what happened with MvC's roster suddenly plunging in number between 2 and 3(another other gameplay quirks) may happen here.

Do you really think they are gonna show all the characters before release?
Also the slot argument is very weak as
1) PKMN and Zelda got more characters in brawl and
2) PKMN was going to have 6 slots in brawl anyway
You are basically saying that they won't add Mewtwo, the most requested characters worldwide and one of the most popular pkmn that would increase the number of sales because of a slot, How many people do you think is going is to care about the slots?
Also Mewtwo is basically confirmed if you trickle together these two sakurai statements
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/34700/sakurai-considering-mewtwo-for-next-smash-bros-games
Sakurai said he is considering mewtwo
http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1970393/pokemon_in_super_smash_bros_how_theyre_selected.html
Sakurai mentioned that he picks the pkmn characters based on his current popularity, even mentioned that they look which pkmn will appear on the movies and this was before M16 was released
I'm surprised that people actually doubt his inclusion

 

[Aninymouse]

The problem with the statement is that nobody ****ing asked him for it and he still said it. Why talk and hype for nothing? That would make him a ****. The hatred will be justified.

Not to mention he hardly ever talks about who he's considering for Smash. He usually just goes no comment but for this he answered he was considering it when he wasn't even asked. I think it would be a slap in the face to not include him now.

Okay, granted, he has our hopes high because of his comment, among other things.

But you know what? @The Soulless One has a good point. If Mewtwo doesn't make it into Smash 4, Sakurai must have weighed the pros and cons of putting him back in and found him wanting, for whatever reason. Not everyone gets the character they want in Smash Bros. I hate to even say the "R" word, but Ridley fans have been disappointed for a long time. Do a lot of Ridley fans still buy and enjoy the game? Yup. Are some going to refuse to buy it because Ridley isn't in it? Maybe so. Does anyone care that they don't buy it, except for them? No.

So throw a tantrum if you want. Soulless One tossed around the word entitled -- don't prove him right. When we finally know the full Smash 4 roster, and all the speculation is put aside, we will have the game that they have presented to us. Complaining and badmouthing Sakurai won't bring Mewtwo back.

This is all very ridiculous. I feel silly even having to post any of this. This ought to go without saying.

I think Mewtwo's back. If I'm wrong about that, but Smash 4 is still an excellent game, I won't care that he's not in as much. It will be fine.