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Fact 54 - Mewtwo Is On The Way [Social/General Discussion]

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Gavitro

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Chris Baker said:
Mewtwo and Jigglypuff will co-exist in Smash 4, this much I am sure of, though I don't expect Mewtwo at E3.
I agree with this, really. Now that I'm thinking about it, another Smash with 6 Pokemon reps is fine with me, considering the sheer number of Mario reps if you include the side characters like DK and Yoshi. But again, I think Mewtwo is being held back for players to discover. If anything, Mewtwo will probably be one of the hardest to unlock, only behind another third-party character or someone with extreme importance to Nintendo's history, like Mr. Game and Watch was in Melee.
 

Smashoperatingbuddy123

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As far as who gets the 'poster boy' slot, I'd say it's a close tie between Lucario and Mewtwo. Yes, Mewtwo did it first, but one cannot deny Lucario's role in the whole Mega-Evolution mechanic.

The fact that Lucario is the very first Pokemon that the player gets to Mega-Evolve does slightly etch him out in my personal opinion, but that doesn't matter since Mewtwo's niche is not that he's a poster boy of Mega-Evolution, but a Legendary Pokemon that can Mega-Evolve, the first of his kind until the Latios/Latias mega stones come.

Mewtwo and Jigglypuff will co-exist in Smash 4, this much I am sure of, though I don't expect Mewtwo at E3.
Really???? You don't think mewtwo is a lock for E3 can you explain I mean mewtwo is the most wanted character of them all and E3 is a world wide event

Ps I got the topper now

Ivysaur is barely even in the popularity list (in my opinion unless he cross fires with bulbasaur)

And mewtwo is far more popular than squirtle
 
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Shroob

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Really???? You don't think mewtwo is a lock for E3 can you explain I mean mewtwo is the most wanted character of them all and E3 is a world wide event
Simply because everyone believed Ridley was a 'lock' for E3 and look at what happened with him. We just got Greninja and solo Charizard, and I don't expect two big Pokemon reveals back to back. I forsee, if the Sal leak is true, probably Pac-Man, Shulk, and maybe someone else, but no, not Mewtwo. If Mewtwo is in this game, he's going to be very, very hidden as the "Surprise, he's back!" character in my opinion. I expect Jigglypuff would be an early unlock, and then he'd be close to one of the last, if not the last unlockable characters.
 
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Gavitro

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Chris Baker said:
Simply because everyone believed Ridley was a 'lock' for E3 and look at what happened with him. We just got Greninja and solo Charizard, and I don't expect two big Pokemon reveals back to back. I forsee, if the Sal leak is true, probably Pac-Man, Shulk, and maybe someone else, but no, not Mewtwo. If Mewtwo is in this game, he's going to be very, very hidden as the "Surprise, he's back!" character in my opinion. I expect Jigglypuff would be an early unlock, and then he'd be close to one of the last, if not the last unlockable characters.
I do feel pretty bad for Smashboards about the very possible deconfirmation of Ridley (Unless the "boss" in Pyrosphere is actually something else), almost everyone on the site highly anticipates and supports him.

Mewtwo, though, still has a lot going for it. It wasn't entirely deconfirmed, despite Greninja putting a slight risk on Mewtwo's chances. But Mewtwo is most likely going to stay hidden. After all...

It IS hidden in X/Y.

Moveset-wise, I think Mewtwo's Down-B, Disable, should be replaced with something else. It's Side-B, Confusion, does a similar but more effective move.
 

MewtwoMaster2002

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I do feel pretty bad for Smashboards about the very possible deconfirmation of Ridley (Unless the "boss" in Pyrosphere is actually something else), almost everyone on the site highly anticipates and supports him.

Mewtwo, though, still has a lot going for it. It wasn't entirely deconfirmed, despite Greninja putting a slight risk on Mewtwo's chances. But Mewtwo is most likely going to stay hidden. After all...

It IS hidden in X/Y.
I wouldn't really say he was hidden...more like optional post-game. Or does optional post-game material count as "hidden?"
The term hidden confuses me now since I would regard easter eggs as hidden like Mr. Saturn sprite being hidden in a Metroid trophy.

I'm probably one of the few who would prefer Ridley as being a boss character or support over being playable...
 

Shroob

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I wouldn't really say he was hidden...more like optional post-game. Or does optional post-game material count as "hidden?"
The term hidden confuses me now since I would regard easter eggs as hidden like Mr. Saturn sprite being hidden in a Metroid trophy.

I'm probably one of the few who would prefer Ridley as being a boss character or support over being playable...
Well, considering there was nothing to point you into looking for Mewtwo, I would consider him to be hidden. Unlike Zygarde which there was at least one hint about in game, I don't remember one about Mewtwo.
 

Gavitro

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Chris Baker said:
Well, considering there was nothing to point you into looking for Mewtwo, I would consider him to be hidden. Unlike Zygarde which there was at least one hint about in game, I don't remember one about Mewtwo.
Well, considering there's a guy blocking the entrance to the cave Mewtwo's at in X/Y, people who are familiar with the first generation games may remember the guy who blocked off Cerluean Cave, which was where Kanto's Mewtwo was. Does anyone know what that guy in X/Y says?

MEWTWOMASTER2002 said:
I'm probably one of the few who would prefer Ridley as being a boss character or support over being playable...
In all honesty, I kinda expected Ridley to be a "boss" anyways. Sakurai has hinted at Ridley's role in the game before ("An enemy from Samus' past may appear at any second!"), and since the Yellow Devil was a "boss" in Mega Man's stage, I expected Ridley to have the same treatment.

Also, making Mewtwo a "boss" as well would actually upset me. At least it's better than simply being a Master Ball Pokemon.
 

woopyfrood

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If Mewtwo wasn't shown at the direct, he's not being shown at E3. If a non-pokemon newcomer was shown, it might be a different story, but as it stands they're not going to reveal all their Pokemon characters up front.
 
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MewtwoMaster2002

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If Mewtwo wasn't shown at the direct, he's not being shown at E3. If a non-pokemon newcomer was shown, it might be a different story, but a it stands they're not going to reveal all their Pokemon characters up front.
I wouldn't count out revealing all Pokemon characters by E3 considering they basically revealed every Mario representative unless they are hiding a new Mario character who would be a newcomer.
 

woopyfrood

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Also, making Mewtwo a "boss" as well would actually upset me. At least it's better than simply being a Master Ball Pokemon.
"When Mewtwo joins the battle, Mew is in charge of Cerulean Cave.

'Mew mew mew mew!' -Mew"

I can see it now: Cerulean Cave. A subterranean lake with a bit of rocky land in the middle, surrounded by water. Behind an expanse of water, an elevating pathway to a high outcropping lies in the background, where Mewtwo surveys the battle with his arms crossed. Occasionally, he deigns to use his psychic powers to toy with the combatants. Effectively, it's final destination with water and a stage hazard, in a huge cave.

When Mewtwo is in the battle, however, Mew takes his spot, and uses different, less malevolent powers on a whim.
 
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Shroob

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Considering the Pokemon Stage we have at the moment is the Kalos Elite 4, I really don't see Mewtwo being a stage boss likely.
 

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I don't expect Mewtwo to be shown before the game is released. Remember, in Melee he was a secret character, and arguably the most secret.

I also don't see how Greninja's inclusion affects his chances. Mewtwo still has ludicrous popularity, substantial evidence that he was planned for Brawl (which had six Pokemon characters), he's currently "in" which is important for a Pokemon character, and there was Sakurai's coy comment at E3.
 

Gavitro

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Chrsi Baker said:
Considering the Pokemon Stage we have at the moment is the Kalos Elite 4, I really don't see Mewtwo being a stage boss likely.
The Kalos Elite 4 is an unusual stage. It looks like Final Destination but with no edges or places to fall. Just flat ground. Honestly, the "For Glory" mode should use that stage and not Final Destination, it seems even more useful for the competitive.

But yeah, I'm betting Mewtwo is left as a secret. I still think Mewtwo has a very high chance in the game, anyways. It hasn't been shown in a Master Ball, it hasn't been shown as a Trophy, and it hasn't appeared in the Greninja trailer. (Dat Mewtwo tease though). If anything, this helps Mewtwo.

Seeing only Mega Charizard X also makes me think only one Mewtwo Mega Evolution would be in the game. My bets are on MMY.
 
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Gavitro

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The Suit-less Ace said:
How much do you think the reveal hurt his chances, I'd say down 10%. That's like 80-85 for me.
At first I thought it was entirely hopeless for Mewtwo, but then I realized it barely affects his chances. In fact, it's a bit better. Having 6 Pokemon reps again like Brawl isn't as bad as you think. But because of the reveal, I think that Mewtwo will be a secret character again.

Being so initially upset at the reveal made me realize how much I support Mewtwo.
 

Smashoperatingbuddy123

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At first I thought it was entirely hopeless for Mewtwo, but then I realized it barely affects his chances. In fact, it's a bit better. Having 6 Pokemon reps again like Brawl isn't as bad as you think. But because of the reveal, I think that Mewtwo will be a secret character again.

Being so initially upset at the reveal made me realize how much I support Mewtwo.
I'm glad the mewtwo supports got threw to you
 

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I went from 95% to 45%. Please don't explain the six slot thing to me again. I have already heard it and believe that slots = characters and not movesets = characters.
 

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If you think about it, if Mewtwo returned, that would make 7 Pokemon reps. Jigglypuff was one of the original 12 characters on the Nintendo 64, so she and everyone else on that very first roster is very likely to make it to the next Smash. It honestly wouldn't be a Smash Bros game without the original 12. So if they threw Mewtwo in, that would be more reps than The Legend of Zelda, including Shiek. In my personal opinion, Mewtwo has an 70% chance of getting in due to his extreme popularity, and in my perspective, he's basically the "mascot" of Melee because he was a unique character that wasn't a clone, and a unique character that didn't make it into Brawl. Greninja kind of hurts Mewtwo's chances, but I still have hope for him.
 

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Serperior doesn't have limbs, no way this is happening.
This is untrue. It has vines/leaves for "hands" held behind it at all times, being the Regal Pokemon and all.





Regardless it uses vines just as Ivysaur does, and coils up to grab things. Also regardless, this is off topic.

Proof or I won't believe you. If you have proof, than my opinions will change.
Almost sure this has been posted numerous times, but:
"There are 39 characters in the game this time around," he says, "and just adding a few more wouldn't be enough to justify another game in my opinion; I'd have to draw a line in the sand and have a new approach to the game to make it worthwhile. As long as the fans enjoy it though, that's what matters and in the distant future, I guess that might be something I'll have to consider."

http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/5437/features/an-audience-with-masahiro-sakurai/?page=3
There are 39 movesets, not 39 slots.
 

woopyfrood

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Sakurai referred to brawl as having 39 characters, which can only be done if you count Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and each starter Pokemon as individual characters. I'll hunt down the specific article later and message it to you.

EDIT: Beaten to it.

Anyway, this notion is further supported by the fact that transformative characters have their own icons, victory taunts, trophies, etc. Lastly, the fact that Sakurai is now splitting transformative characters into stand-alone ones tells me he is not concerned with the amount of boxes.
 
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Smashoperatingbuddy123

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If you think about it, if Mewtwo returned, that would make 7 Pokemon reps. Jigglypuff was one of the original 12 characters on the Nintendo 64, so she and everyone else on that very first roster is very likely to make it to the next Smash. It honestly wouldn't be a Smash Bros game without the original 12. So if they threw Mewtwo in, that would be more reps than The Legend of Zelda, including Shiek. In my personal opinion, Mewtwo has an 70% chance of getting in due to his extreme popularity, and in my perspective, he's basically the "mascot" of Melee because he was a unique character that wasn't a clone, and a unique character that didn't make it into Brawl. Greninja kind of hurts Mewtwo's chances, but I still have hope for him.
Yea I guess it was mean't to be 7 pokemon characters in brawl

So basicly it's loosing 1 pokemon character slot sinces it's 95% chance squirtle and ivysaur are toast
 

ppbto

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Maybe Mewtwo is an unlockable character and won't be revealed until post-release.
 

Smashoperatingbuddy123

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Maybe Mewtwo is an unlockable character and won't be revealed until post-release.
That's a lock if mewtwo is not shown at E3

(Mewtwo has to be unlocked is a lock anyway he's the strongest pokemon besides arceus and kyurems alternate forms but in mega that status is back on top
 
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mygamecube

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I'm one of the few who actual could care less if Mewtwo returns or not.

However, I look at it this way, Brawl had 6 reps, if you count Squirtle and Ivysaur, who are now all but deconfirmed. With Charizard back, that leaves Pikachu and Lucario to return, and the newcomer, Greninja, a count of 4.

If the reps are to carry over and/or increase from Brawl, then 6 would be the total number of reps in Smash 4 at minimum. With 2 slots unaccounted for, that leaves Jigglypuff, a veteran who is part of the original 12 and a high probability of returning...


...and Mewtwo, because it makes the most sense, IMO.
 

Vann Accessible

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I really like this logic:

So pokemon can't have more reps than Mario? Well, yeah the Mario series has five playable characters, but it's six if you include Yoshi.

Seven if you include Wario!

Nine if you include DK and Diddy!

Ten if you include Little Mac (who does exist in the same universe seeing as how Mario refs his fights and Mac boxes DK).

10 PLAYABLE POKEMANS CONFIRMED!!!!!
 

Gimj

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This direct encouraged my support for Mewtwo, and I thought this would be the obvious reaction.

1. He was not included in any Pokeballs in the vast array of legendaries/normal pokemon shown. Mewtwo is one of the most famous legendaries and just outright pokemon to exist, why not include him?

2. Zoroark deconfirmed(arguably the best pkmn rivaling his spot).

3. Brawl had 6 Pokemon characters. That is without question. The only counter-point I see being made is that "three characters were one slot so therefore only 5 pkmn accepted max." That is incredibly faulty and weak to me. Let's examine the Zelda series. Zelda would be considered one character until this direct according to this logic. Now we have gained an "extra Zelda series character" according to this slot-logic, since Sheik has her own slot. It just isn't a good basis, and that shows that Sakurai views multiple-character slots as what they are; individual characters that so happen to be merged in one slot. A multiple-character slot = multiple, individual characters. It just seems obvious. Characters > Slots

However, I will make it harder for Mewtwo by yet and still using the "Mario series slot-logic."

So here's the worst, most-limited-yet-realistic scenario for Mewtwo:
1 - Pikachu - 2 - Lucario - 3 - Charizard - 4 - Greninja - 5 - Jigglypuff(debatable)....So that makes 5 characters, equal to Mario series(as of now)..but we had 6 in Brawl, MORE POKEMON CHARACTERS THAN THE MARO SERIES(or less, if you count DK and the like, which just further illustrates the arbitrarity of aligning Mario's slot # vs Pkmn's slot #) . Who's going to fill the last slot? A lone Squirtle or Ivy? Hell no. Zoroark is out of the question. Bowser Jr is still possible for a 6th Mario rep, so there's that. Sakurai implementing 6 Pokemon characters is not foreign to Smash, he's done it before and can and will do it again. Mario series got a slot boost, Zelda series got a slot "boost"(by Sheik), so Pokemon getting a 6th slot for Smash 4 really isn't reaching in the slightest. Ironically, 6 pkmn characters for Smash 4 is asking less of what the Mario series got, +1. This merely stays at a comfortable and fitting 6 Pokemon, perfect room for Mewtwo.

4. Mewtwo still hasn't been revealed/deconfirmed/hinted in any way yet. Not a ironclad argument, but still supports the notion of a big-deal announcement at E3 for a big-deal character. This is just present-day evidence that really seems to lean towards this notion. Sakurai already confirmed to us he knows there is big desire for Mewtwo, and therefore is aware of his inclusion in Smash 4. It's obvious he's going into the game, it's just a how at this point. He has way too much support to be totally ignored. Similar to, but better than Ridley's current state.

------
Let me address Sakurai's trifecta of Grass, Water, and Fire type Pokemon. This was a very nice way to represent the elements of the Pokemon series in Brawl and Sakurai obviously noticed because he implemented it. We have Fire(Charizard), Water(Greninja), but no Grass. So if Sakurai wants this again, and I assume it's quite an elephant in the pokemon room, adding a new grass type starter isn't far-fetched. So this seems to lean towards the idea of Sakurai being almost obligated to add at least 6 slots to Pokemon, based on a worst case scenario for Mewtwo(Jiggly's return, which may not happen).

So it would then be:
1 - Pikachu - 2 - Charizard - 3 - Greninja - 4 - Jigglypuff - 5 - Lucario - 6 - Grass pkmn (7 - Mewtwo)

This, believe it or not, would still be technically in line with the treatment of the Mario series. And this supports the notion of 6 pkmn slots in Smash 4, more slots than current-Mario. But we had 6 Pokemon characters before, so a +1(like Mario) would equal 7, perfect room for Mewtwo.

Obviously, if I'm wrong and he wants to do away with this trifecta-idea, then Mewtwo's chances are evermore improved because it's one less slot being filled, even though it really doesn't matter. I'm just using that as the strictest measures for Mewtwo. It seems to me, on all fronts, there is ample space and possibility for Mewtwo even with the most unkind scenarios I present.

I'll just requote myself for the lazy naysayers.
 

MasterWarlord

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Serperior doesn't have limbs, no way this is happening.
I'm not against Ridley, but I think Serperior is more feasible than he is. Ivysaur already proved a lot of close minded people wrong for moveset possibilities by being a quadruped. The guy has to use items with his mouth for crap's sake.

Regardless, I have since seen Chespin and Snivy are shown in the trailer with Greninja as NPCs, all but deconfirming Chestnaught and Serperior. The only other real candidate for this slot is Sceptile and I don't really see that, so a Grass starter shouldn't be much of an issue. Mewtwo's fine with Squirtle and Ivysaur all but confirmed to leave. Even with Mewtwo, we'll have less gen 1 representation than Brawl in SSB4 and the same overall roster size. At this point I don't think Mewtwo is hurt whatsoever by the direct.
 
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Logsmash

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What if Mewtwo returned..... as an alternate skin for Lucario? Obviously this would mean changes to his Melee moveset (no Teleport, for example), but would you accept it if it was the only way to get him into the game? OR would you prefer that he not be playable than mess with his moveset?

Keep in mind he could always return as a Pokéball Pokémon (Sakurai such excellent trolling with the Master Ball reel and shadow Greninja, congrats xD)
 

MewtwoMaster2002

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What if Mewtwo returned..... as an alternate skin for Lucario? Obviously this would mean changes to his Melee moveset (no Teleport, for example), but would you accept it if it was the only way to get him into the game? OR would you prefer that he not be playable than mess with his moveset?

Keep in mind he could always return as a Pokéball Pokémon (Sakurai such excellent trolling with the Master Ball reel and shadow Greninja, congrats xD)
I honestly think it would be a terrible idea for Mewtwo to be just an alternate skin for Lucario. They are completely different characters with different functions. To me, it would be like saying Luigi should be a Mario alternate skin.
 

Hot Uncle Sparky

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I don't think Mewtwo will be publicly revealed at any point, if anyone is going to be a secret/surprise fighter, it's him.
 

woopyfrood

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What if Mewtwo returned..... as an alternate skin for Lucario?
It always confused me as to why people would suggest this or even think it would work. It seems connected to the fallacy of assuming that Lucario and Mewtwo possess mostly similar moves and gameplay.

Yes, they are both humanoid, animal-like creatures with digitigrade legs and a tail, but they have definite differences in bone structure and substantially different silhouettes. Mewtwo superimposed onto Lucario's moveset would not look right: his model would require its own hurtbox and animations in order to not look shoddy, at which point he is no longer an easy costume job. This isn't even taking into thematic issues: why is Mewtwo using so much Kung-Fu? Just because you see something on Brawl Vault that slaps a wildly different model onto another character doesn't mean that sort of thing would fly by professional standards. Unless you have characters so immensely similar in height, body shape, and posture (looking at you, Fox and Falco), a new model should be imposed on animations and hurtboxes that were made specifically to fit it.

The entire subject is moot point anyway, as I believe Sakurai has stated before that costumes should not turn a fighter into a completely different character because it steals away both characters' uniqueness, though apparently blank-slate sorts of characters such as Wii Fit Trainer are exempt from this rule.

Lastly, no.
 
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Gavitro

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About Mewtwo's moveset, I'm worried about it's Shadow Ball. Both Lucario and Greninja have charged projectile attacks already (Aura Sphere and Water Shuriken, respectively), so having yet another Pokemon with a similar move probably wouldn't be something Sakurai would do.
 

Gavitro

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I also consider Sakurai is adding Pokemon characters in terms of popularity. Charizard is a huge hit in both Gen 1 and 6 and it's X Mega was well received. Lucario is somewhat mixed these days, but he was probably very popular during the time of Gen 4. Jigglypuff was the 2nd most popular Pokemon in Japan during Gen 1. Greninja was the most chosen of the Gen 6 starters. Pikachu is obviously Pokemon's own mascot and is the co-star, if not THE main character of the anime. With Mewtwo being one of the most requested characters and being a popular Pokemon all over the world, Sakurai would make a grave mistake ignoring it.
 
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