Extreme Freeze Frames - Sakurai's idea of "Making the game slower"?

[Corinth]

I think they did this on purpose- to emphasize an attack's impact. They did the same thing in Twilight Princess (and just about any other 3d zelda game)

So ya, it's a good thing

 

[nuro]

Yuna you are right. I noticed that when Mario was doing that combo on link it seemed like there was more freeze frames. Mario's uptilt seems as if it was his same uptilt from ssb64. When I say this I mean it takes a bit longer to go off. But also I noticed that there is way more stun time. Mario could pull of three moves on link befoe link could move. In ssb64 u could uptilt someone at least 3-6 times before they were able to move agian. Combos were worse than ever in ssb64 but not to say thats a bad thing. I kind of like having easier to do combos.

But seeing how Isai is unstoppable in ssb64 I kind of wish there wasn't a way for someone like him to get so good because he uses his combos.

Hard to say what I am thinking. But I think whatever they do will be great. So far this game looks better than both melee and ssb64

 

[ReadySetGo]

I agree with the idea of trying to make the gameplay different from Melee, even if that meens slowing it down. If the game carried the same speed, physics, ect. from Melee to Brawl then it would be unfair to people new to the franchise who do want to become competitive. For example I have a friend who would love to play Melee with me and my group of friends, but can't because his skill level is so far behind ours it'd take him to long to catch up. Now think of that isolated situation, but apply it on a variably larger group of people seeing as Brawl will be online. There would be the handful of us who are skillful at Melee, that would be equally as skillful a Brawl if the same battle system carried over, who would dominate and then no new players would want to play anymore, therefore making the game almost a failure.


So in a nutshell for the purpose of creating another great game Nintendo needs to take any steps necessary to make the game unique so that everyone will start on the same level.

 

[SrL04]

I noticed it too...I mean when the first trailer came out I was like, "Oh man, they have super moves now?" I realized that it was going to be so noob and my thoughts haven't changed, I mean now they keep people in combos when you use one attack >< And plus there are other factors to why it is a bad thing...let's say that someone was stunlocking a person right? Then his teammate or whatever could go attack the guy who was "frozen." And the more you are stunned or "frozen" then it'll be that much harder to get back on the stage when you've been flown outwards. I really do hope that there is an option where you could not have the "frozen" factor just like how the super moves will have an option not to use them ^_^

Off topic: I don't like how Snake and Wario are implemented in SSBB...they just don't...fit in-

 

[Chi's Finest]

^ Wario is a clasic character to Nintendo

I don't know why, but I just can't notice these freeze frames that people are talking about. The hits of attacks seem the same way to Melee to me.

 

[alpha n00b]

i like the idea of the game being slower, it'll be alot easier to play, and easier=more fun, besides, i'm pretty sure there were alot of people that could'nt adjust to the new play style, so all those smash 64 players can get in with the new!, so in short, adding bigger freeze frames was a good move by nintendo, rock on!

P.S.- there's nothing you can do about the new play style, so get over it yuna!

 

[uremog]

*DIs the idea of having so many freeze frames since it has so many freeze frames*

 

[alpha n00b]

i just remembered in the old melee trailer, that play control was just like SB64, so there is still a chance that brawl will be more like melee, i'm hoping this won't happen though.....

 

[Miharu]

i like the idea of the game being slower, it'll be alot easier to play, and easier=more fun, besides, i'm pretty sure there were alot of people that could'nt adjust to the new play style, so all those smash 64 players can get in with the new!, so in short, adding bigger freeze frames was a good move by nintendo, rock on!

P.S.- there's nothing you can do about the new play style, so get over it yuna!

Yeah, nice opinion, except for the fact that it's been stated repeatedly by many different people in the topic. You're not really contributing to the discussion.

And the statement that people couldn't adjust to the new playstyle? I'm willing to bet that the reason was that they simply didn't want to adjust to the new playstyle, not that they were technically incapable of doing so. Many people that I've talked to simply said that they didn't like how SSBM played, and I've yet to meet someone that was just simply overwhelmed by the speed of SSBM when compared to SSB64.

Extreme Freeze frames aren't so good for the game, simply because they're extreme, and anything on the far ends of either side of the spectrum won't turn out too well. Having too much hitlag for every move would slow the game down to a ridiculous speed, and it'd simply take longer for the match to finish. Also, the game wouldn't be able to flow, since this time around, the rest of the gameplay will be much smoother. It'll almost be as if when someone gets hit, the whole game shifts into slow-mo until the hitlag ends. Choppy gameplay isn't good for a multiplayer game. On the other extreme, no hitlag would make it very hard to escape combos, thereore increasing the possibility of more possible infinites. So IMO, SSBM did a decent job of allowing just enough hitlag to make attacks DIable, but not so extreme that gameplay was affected.

 

[Wilhelmsan]

Yeah, that's why I'm disappointed. Nintendo has the slow the game down to please non-gamers who otherwise wouldn't be attracted to it.

Discrimination is primarily an econimic decision. They get more money that way.

Fool. More people playing = better experience for everyone.

 

[Chi's Finest]

Yeah, nice opinion, except for the fact that it's been stated repeatedly by many different people in the topic. You're not really contributing to the discussion.

Who cares if he sounds like other people in the thread, he's just saying his opinion. The entire thread is basically saying 2 different things anyway.

Now, I actully have noticed the freeze frames a little. I don't think their extreme in anyway, thought. They're very slight.

 

[shadenexus18]

Whether or not they change the frames back to SSB64 or stick to SSBM frames to throw my game off makes no difference to me ya know what I'm sayin. I am da "Smash Sovereign" when it comes to both games.

 

[D.A.N.]

It's an interesting thought, but you have to remember the game isn't finished yet. Alot of it could be as slow as we've seen due to freeze frames but in time it could all be changed.

 

[fleapy]

Remeber a little game called halo?

The demo at e3 was horendous, but it turned out preety amazing. Maybe brawl will e a similar story, not that the gameplay is horendous, but that maybe theyll get rid of all those freeze frames.

Not that there a bad thing, i think it made the game look amzing.

 

[Red7z7]

Anyways, I think you're exaggerating. If you watch the trailer very carefully, you'll notice that the freeze frames aren't actually as "extreme" as you say. Some of them are longer, but most are hardly any longer than SSBM freeze frames. The reason that the freeze frames may seem longer is because the hits are more dramatic; they have large, flashy "spark" animations and sharper sound effects. I think you should have a little more faith in the game designers--they consider all these factors when they make the game. They won't let it be too easy, or too choppy. Look at the part in the trailer when kirby does upsmash--theres almost zero freeze frames. I'm confident that they've balanced the freeze frames between different attacks and different characters to make the game work in all of it's different aspects.

 

[JJC]

Freeze frames are what made certain moves useful in SSB64. For instance the drills for Kirby, Mario, Jiggly etc they all had a purpose of setting up another move or spiking and controlling the momentum of your enemy. In Melee they weren't any where near as useful since people bounced out of them with little to no stun. Moves like Pikachu's forward A aerial drill were great to set up combo's and in Melee that move is one of the most useless.

People who say they're extreme need to go back and play SSB64. They are no where near as big as those ones were like Mario's Tornado. He hits nearly the same amount of times as Melee's one but it has freeze frames and impact hits this time around. I personally think they struck the perfect balance between Melee and SSB64.

 

[kidprecision]

Have you guys thought of the fact that more freeze frames would make the game slower because of more smash di?

 

[gnosis]

Well, that'd be a possibility. They could remove Smash DI, after all. And it wouldn't make the game -that- much slower, unless players got to the point where they could smash di out of every attack before the knockback occurs (if that's even possible?), or smash di every ground attack into a tech.

However, it's still an issue. If these freeze frames are kept, it seems the smash DI system will need a makeover of some sort.

 

[Champion_Link]

Please stop complaining. Nintendo doesn't give a crap about pro players. Pro's make up less than 5% of those who play smash bros, therefore Nintendo wants to make Brawl more fun for the general population that will buy the game. They can make it more fun by making it easier and more competitive.

 

[gnosis]

Smashboards's interest in Smash is primarily in the competitive, fighting game side of the series. Therefore, if we, the competitive players, see a threat to the aspect of the game that interests us, we are going to address the issue here, among other competitive players and those who enjoy the game for its depth and quality as a fighter. In other words, this is the most fitting environment for a look into how Brawl may or may not be decreasing in viability as a fighter.

So, please stop trolling.

 

[BLoOdY_oL_ChAP]

Here is a personal opinion of the pros of Extreme Freeze Frames, with the most important items on the list being at the top.

-The game is more approachable for new players (yes you elitist *******s, this is a good thing)

-More people will come to tournaments = more $$$ for you elitist pros (now you believe me )

-Skill from practicing is acquired more gradually, rather than in large bursts (mastering L-cancel = huge burst to gameplay skill, whereas learning a fun new combo made possible by freeze frames can be done more often, but to a lesser effect. This is good because many of my friends have been turned off to SSBM by having to learn such extremely complicated button techniques just to attempt to be competitive, whereas now, the jumps aren't as complex yet still feel rewarding)

-The action looks cool (This is strictly opinion, but from the trailers, I felt that the game just seemed to have more of a satisfying 'punch' to each attack that could be felt. Sure you won't see as many difficult combos a.k.a. fox thudercombos that are impressive due to sheer difficulty, but that doesn't mean that the game can't still be appreciated stylistically.)

-Skill could possibly be more emphasized from large combos as opposed to timing (Watching Meta Knight string together aerial after aerial not only looked cool, but made me realize that, for Brawl, I will get to have fun being creative and stringing together multiple attacks that will require me to think more on my toes about my position in the level, as well as what percentage my attacks will carry my opponent to, and how I should look to finish that combo string. The gameplay will not be based on "Better time my marth swings perfect every time, and annoy the @#$! out of my friend who likes Smash Bros, but just feels worthless every time he plays against me and doesn't see how he could get any better so then just gives up.")

 

[Red Exodus]

I noticed this, SSB had horrible FFs it was pretty annoying and like you said, it made the game ugly. I hope they don't increase the FFs on most moves and make it like SSBM's FFs, almost non-existant.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I have decided to bump this thread since the issues with freeze frame was never resolved. First, there is no doubt in my mind that if freeze frames are there it WILL ruin the game. SSB64 did not have freeze frames, for all the reasons stated by yuna it will destory smash as we know it.

Luckily I did some research and had concluded:

FREEZE FRAMES WILL NOT BE IN BRAWL. (I assume from a hypothesis)

Please view the original Melee Trailer:
http://media.cube.ign.com/media/016/016387/vids_5.html

Notice that during Beta testing the exact same freeze frames were in the game. But they are not there anymore!!! Freeze frames are probably for beta testing purposes only. As Sakurai stated himself, "The game will be playable soon" in other words this game is not even playable to the testers as of right now. The game will probably be tested for a long time after the game becomes playable so we have awhile to wait!!!

Everyone,this theory is factual,but i don't believe that the Freeze Frames will be THAT extreme,possible alittle faster than the N64 Smash.

 

[Blackshadow]

As long as Brawl is as enjoyable as Melee is and has been, then we're all happy.

 

[linkw00t]

Seems people only want SSBM 1.5 .

Interesting.

Think of the difference bewteen SSB and SSBM.

If you don't like the new one, keep playing the old one.

I doubt complaining about FF's will make anyone change it, you gotta be ready for change. People still play SSB for a reason, they might not like SSBM for various reasons.

But yes, the existance of this thread is validated, that is a way that the game has been made slower.

 

[CHUK]

I dont want a ****load of freeze frames, I like it pro style, its not my fault when people are complete trash, they should QQ about it.

 

[Red Exodus]

Link, there's nothing wrong with wanting the game to remain at it's current pace, it doesn't mean we want SSBM 1.5. Excessive FF won't ruin the game but it makes the action slower and less fluid, if the tone down the FFs a bit I think most of us would be happy.

 

[MiraiGen]

Is there some sort of "Not okay" limit for thread necromancy? I'm not completely familar with these boards.

Anyway, I don't think that the freeze frames were terrible in Brawl's trailer - I think most of the FFs were just designed to show how the game runs. For example, watch Mario's Fair attack, then look at Snake's Dsmash (I assume, we're talking about the nikita attack). They looked drastically different, and I think that Mario's Fair was augmented to prove an example.

Even still, as it was said before, the Melee trailer was just as slow. Maybe this is just Sakurai doing with what he can with what he's got - the game engine's not even really complete, last I heard.

 

[Red Exodus]

I can except the FFs in Brawl now but if they add more it would probably make the game look like Street Fighter.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Freeze frames, however, aren't a part of those "glitches that will probably get fixed". They've been just as horrendous ever since the very first trailer was released (the big one back in May of 2005) and it's obvious Nintendo isn't above making games slower, laggier, freezier and easier to hit confirm by inserting huge freeze frames, tLoZ: Twiligt Princess considered.

I didn't say that the freeze frames ruin the game. However, it's a part of a big ball of wax that together is making Brawl a much less competitive game than Smash. For one thing, freeze frames slow down the game considerably (on top of the general slowness, floatiness and lack of techniques which make you master in the game). For another, it simplifies the game. With freeze frames comes more reaction time. DI will be a breeze, it will be almost virtually impossible to not DI/mis-DI an attack now.

Which all results in a less tournament worthy game. While most probably still a lot fun in friendlies, I foresee that the depth of the game will be much more shallow than Melee.

You have absolutely no real proof of the hit lag being present in the final build. If you looked at coverage for SSB64 and Melee, they had the exact same thing going on. And the hit lag/stun (not freeze frames, that would be another effect) is not here anymore.

Here's the link I was looking for, which turns out to be referenced earlier in this thread.
http://media.cube.ign.com/media/016/016387/vids_5.html

Looks at the 3 gameplay videos on the page.

My only real concern for increased hit lag in this game is for moves that suffer extremely from it. Examples from Melee include multihit attacks like Zelda's fsmash/usmash and neutral B, Peach's and Samus's Up+B, etc. DI'ing out of these attacks rendered them punishable even on hit. That would just be cruel to those characters.

 

[Phlemingo]

It seems like not only DI itself has become more pronounced but also it seems you can almost immediately "momentum cancel" any attack by preforming an aerial in the opposite direction of the attacks knockback.

 

[Eaode]

OMG EXTREME FREEZE FRAMES TEH GAME IS TEH RUINED



you know, except for the fact that before Melee was released it had the exact same thing going on.

 

[VVayfarer]

What's so bad about that? DI'ing is a useful technique in Melee, and it was one of the many things that made Melee more complicated.

Say what you want, but i think they belong in the game.

//

This topic is more than a year old guys. Why doesn't anyone ever notice that when they bump this crap? His point was perfectly valid before the demo, but after the demo was out and we haven't heard any reputable sources on freeze frames taking a toll on the game, the topic could have totally been left alone.

Oops, sorry. Didn't really pay attention to the posting date of the first post.

 

[True Fool]

This topic is more than a year old guys. Why doesn't anyone ever notice that when they bump this crap? His point was perfectly valid before the demo, but after the demo was out and we haven't heard any reputable sources on freeze frames taking a toll on the game, the topic could have totally been left alone.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

This topic is more than a year old guys. Why doesn't anyone ever notice that when they bump this crap? His point was perfectly valid before the demo, but after the demo was out and we haven't heard any reputable sources on freeze frames taking a toll on the game, the topic could have totally been left alone.

I only have one thing to say about this, and that's Samus's Screw Attack in the demo.

 

[Ced The Lad]

***deleted***

 

[eebrozgi]

Yuna, please stop whining about every single thing that is different in Brawl. This is a NEW GAME.

 

[Teeb147]

Dudes, the game is going to be like its going to be, just learn to enjoy it or play melee.

 

[Demon Kirby]

Dudes, the game is going to be like its going to be, just learn to enjoy it or play melee.

This here.

I don't care if there are no freeze frames or a little less than in 64. In truth, I liked them. They made it feel more like a game and made some attacks seem more awesome.

 

[Mattnumbers]

You already made a thread about this! Its not that big of a deal, god.
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