Extreme Freeze Frames - Sakurai's idea of "Making the game slower"?

[kidprecision]

I think ssbm's speed was perfectly fine.

 

[Sheek]

Darn. This sounds pretty bad. But I likes how in 64, you kinda slowed down when you did a multi hitting attack. Like a drill kick. Is that the same thing?

 

[The Mad Hatter]

I didn't mean to say that I don't relish challenge: I do! It's just that SSB64 created a social pull as much as it did a challenge pull. Like I said, those 4-way games where any one of us could have won because we were all equally matched were, by far, the BEST ever played. It was the thrill of the challenge which made those games so much fun.

Melee seperated the good from the "ok" smashers. We play 4-way melee all the time and its always close. Now if we were to play some one who dosent play as much as we do (and we do every now and then) its like a high school basket ball player playing an NBA star. It just sounds like you get beat by someone who out speeds you and you blame it on the game. Now Im not trying to be rude by any means.

Can you honestly tell me ssb64 offered more of a challenge then melee? A faster pace is way more of a challenge.

I just think the majority of people who play both ssb64 and melee like melee a LOT better. If they go back to ssb64 style it will piss a lot of people off, thus lower their sales. Just my 2 cents.

 

[froz3ntear]

. . .which suggests to me that he might actually want Brawl to be more party-game like as opposed to a real fighter. And if that happens, I will quit Smash. Permanently. And then I'll start playing GGXX instead.

Haha if the game doesn't meet competitive standards, I'll be heading to 3rd Strike.

Honestly though, So far the stages have been beautiful and balanced, I have high hopes for brawl... I just hope the combat system is as good as melee. When I first heard "slow down" and "better aerial combat". I thought that was a joke. Melee's speed is fine. If we're able to tech chase 5 times in a row already, imagine if the game was slowed down, but if the game is slowed down like yuna said, it may become interesting. Well just have to wait and see. I'm tired of speculating haha.

Melee seperated the good from the "ok" smashers. We play 4-way melee all the time and its always close. Now if we were to play some one who dosent play as much as we do (and we do every now and then) its like a high school basket ball player playing an NBA star. It just sounds like you get beat by someone who out speeds you and you blame it on the game. Now Im not trying to be rude by any means.

Can you honestly tell me ssb64 offered more of a challenge then melee? A faster pace is way more of a challenge.

I just think the majority of people who play both ssb64 and melee like melee a LOT better. If they go back to ssb64 style it will piss a lot of people off, thus lower their sales. Just my 2 cents.

With the huge fanbase that the smash brother series has, its gonna be successful no matter what just because of the title imo.

I loved how ssbm had so much potential, you could be god in comparison to other players. It was fun reaching such high levels, you couldn't be touched for entire stocks... To blame the game cause someone is better than you is so lame. I agree with that. Like if anyone has played Gunz Online, when you start, you are at the same skill and everyone is killing with 1:1 ratios, the game has so much room for growth and such amazing limits that at the highest levels, you could take on 1 vs 13.

 

[JJC]

Heya guys. Long time lurker/ssb player, first time poster

Like many of you the Brawl trailers that get released bring me great joy and anticipation as I await the next in the series.

Unlike many of you though, I do not play Melee. That's not to say I don't own it or that I haven't played it extensively, but I have since stopped playing Melee in favour of SSB64. I've been playing SSB64 for what is it now? 5 years? Me and my mate have explored every nuance, every trick, every style possible and we're still coming up with new techniques every time we play. I love the physics, I love the movesets, I love the items and most of all I love how all of these work together to make imo the most balanced and playable Smash Bros out of the current two.

I know most people love Melee for it's speed. But to me, the speed feels forced. The emphasis placed on speed is too great. Then for there to be little "undocumented" techs and moves that alow you to surpass the designated speeds of the individual characters to bring even MORE speed makes Melee appear to be less about tactics and more about who has the better reflexes, imo.

On top of that, many of you here played Melee before the original Smash and simply assume that because Melee has all this depth and speed, that the original wont. Or that the original was made simply as a party game and that's all it'll ever be. Well simply put, yes Smash64 has less speed (movement) than Melee but it has something that Melee doesn't; Less recoveryon moves or as some of you guys put it "lag". That coupled with the fact that you can also short hop, and the Z cancel works even better than Melee's version of a L cancel (being as it completely cancels the move save for one or two frames) and you have a game that just got incredibly faster in high level play.

Hit stuns or Freeze Frames were one of my favourite missing thing in Melee. As the split second pausing was going on, you wree already calculating your next three moves based on any of the possible outcomes of the move you were in. In Melee I foun myself more or less short hopping, L canceling and trying to get as many hits in as possible rather than formulating plans of attack and set-ups for insane combos. The overall pace of the game is slower... yes but not by much and the physics will hopefully make up for it in the long run.

I recomend before Brawl comes out, set up the 64 and play SSB64 a LOT. Cast aside any preconceptions and do NOT compare it to Melee. The only way I can enjoy Melee myself is if I don't view it as a direct sequal to the original and I think if those of you who haven't played SSB properly do the same you'll get more out of it.

You just watch. Brawls gonna be great. Whether it leans towards Melee's playstyle or 64's I'll still enjoy it for what it is. Sorry for the essay but I figured I'd better get this stuff out there

 

[S_B]

Melee seperated the good from the "ok" smashers. We play 4-way melee all the time and its always close. Now if we were to play some one who dosent play as much as we do (and we do every now and then) its like a high school basket ball player playing an NBA star. It just sounds like you get beat by someone who out speeds you and you blame it on the game. Now Im not trying to be rude by any means.

Can you honestly tell me ssb64 offered more of a challenge then melee? A faster pace is way more of a challenge.

Unless you go to regular tournaments, you have no way of verifying who the "good" and "ok" smashers are, and even then, it's still anecdotal. Online play will be what truly separates the men from the boys.

And I already said, I'm the best SSB/M player in my circle of friends, hands down, largely because I'm the only one who's enough of a hardcore gamer to have the reflexes to bring my game to its full potential, and that's NOT bragging about my skills. I'm just saying that when no one will play against you because they can't even keep up, it sucks.

I know most people love Melee for it's speed. But to me, the speed feels forced. The emphasis placed on speed is too great. Then for there to be little "undocumented" techs and moves that alow you to surpass the designated speeds of the individual characters to bring even MORE speed makes Melee appear to be less about tactics and more about who has the better reflexes, imo.

Completely agree.

The speed in Melee always felt like a substitute for the immense depth of SSB64.

 

[j0e w00dy]

my brother and i had this argument tonite while he was murdering me in SSB64...how its like that i dont kno...but like i said its no comparison in SSBM. ill run him down without losing stock. its really confusing, but i c the definate contrast in the two. he says im full of ****...but i always tell him im way faster than him and the game is just too fast for him and thats why he loses so badly in SSBM...in SSB64 its just a whole diff ball game. back in the day (before SSBM) i used to own him just as bad in SSB64 as i do now in SSBM...but after playing Melee and going back to 64 it changed all that. interesting eh?

im in no way in ne comparison to like 99% of the ppl on here...and i really dont ever c myself reaching much higher than i am right now tho either...i just dont have the reflexes. i play smash bros for pure enjoyment. whatever Brawl brings will heavily satisfy me for a long *** time. online play is going to be amazing. if i win half my matches that'd be great lol. ill work towards improvement...but you win some, you lose some. im a competative guy but ssb is just a thing of enjoyment and i kno ill never ever ever be the best lol.

but i can honestly c where the ones totally against "slowing down" Brawl are coming from. the potential for skill is higher in SSBM...and it does heavily rely on speed and reflexes...but thats just how that game is built. Im a bigger fan of Melee (maybe cuz im better at it!) but at TIMES it does seem like more fun when im extremely challenged to get that W when playing SSB64. we'll c what brawl brings!

 

[Takalth]

In Melee I foun myself more or less short hopping, L canceling and trying to get as many hits in as possible rather than formulating plans of attack and set-ups for insane combos.

I went through a short phase where I did this. I can also add that I sucked during that phase. If that is how you play melee, then it's no wonder why you think it's all about reflexes and lacking in depth. It was only when I started analyzing, planning and predicting more that I got better.

Now, I never played SSB64, but I always hear about one hit kills, zero-to-death combos, and things like that, which makes me really wonder how well it actually does as a highly competitive game. All the depth in the world(however much it had) will do you no good when simple tricks are so powerful.

All in all, my hopes are not that it is "like melee" or "like 64" but that it has a competitive value and potential skill level to match or exceed melee.

 

[JJC]

Now see, I know I suck at Melee. I know how good players play and I simply can't play that way. Seeing as you've never played SSB64 before I'll let you know one thing. They both play VERY differently. So much so that I never bothered getting into Melee because it made me play SSB64 worse. Now in answer to your concerns, yes there are 0 - death combo's, but no one I've seen can pull these off 100% of the time every time they play (or even 5% of the time) so there's no need to worry about those unless you really suck and allow a Jiggly to trap you and rest you for a quick kill. There are no one hit kills I'm aware of (unless you play on 200% or classify spiking a character like DK who would have to have jumped off the edge already :S). As a competitive game it is (completely in my oppinion of course) rich with depth and even more of it untapped by the majority of it's players (much like Melee was). The major difference between Melee and Classic is that I find that games in Melee are a bombardment of moves. Trying to fake out your opponent so you can lay down a flurry of your own moves. Whereas Smash 64 is all about psyching out your opponent with lack of moves, rather than an overload of them. You may move slower and fall slower but your movements are faster than in Melee especialy since Z cancels remove nextto ALL lag in moves.

More to the point. I'm hoping this aspect of 64 is retained in Brawl along with the style of Melee. Something both parties can enjoy. Just because the movement or style is slowed down a tad, doesn't mean depth dissapears. You're reflexes will not go to waste. Just because a game is set at a certain pace, doesn't mean there aren't ways to make it faster! People have been doing that in both Smash 64 AND (especially) Melee for years, you think it wont happen to Brawl? You just need to adapt to new gameplay and transfer what you know to a new system.

Although not many poeple will admit it, playing the same old styles and tactics gets boring. If Brawll was just a Melee 2 or a Smash 64 sequal it'd have the problem of feeling like a game we've played before. It'd be too samey and we'd all miss out on the chance to learn new techniques and styles. Sure there'd be new characters but you'd ust copy and paste the techs from the past games to them and play as if nothing was new.

Is that what we really want? I personally want a sense of familiarality along with brand new ways to get my opponent from the stage to the edge of the level. Bring on Brawl I say!

 

[S_B]

Dammit, now I feel like playing SSB64 again...

 

[The Mad Hatter]

So things should go back to slow now? We should ditch the duel core processers and go back to comador64? The future is speed, and I dont mean unrealistic speed. I just think going back to ssb64 is taking a HUGE step backward. BUT, we dont know what brawl is going to be. Im just worried thats all.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

NOO! Samus's screw attack was so very annoying, because the computer ALWAYS did it in SSB64.
IT was sooo loong to... finish...

Sure after a while you knew when the CPU was gonna do it, but that didn't stop JAMES from abusing it...
NOW say it got its LONGness back... I'd... cry...

 

[Kalaquinn]

Freeze frames if done right could add a great deal of cinematic flair to the game. Check out God of War's freeze frame, especially for the counter when you block exactly when being attacked. It gives you a bigger window for the counter, plus it's more intuitive. I could see a 1v1 where the camera would actually zoom in for the freeze frame so you could see your owning up close. The problem is when you're playing with three or more. Do you want to freeze frame when only two players are involved in the skirmish and the other two are off doing something else. You could do it, but it would take a good deal of tweaking.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

Freeze frames don't actually freeze the game, just the people involved in the attack.

Also, it's easier to hit someone with attacks that have freeze frames. Kirby and Mario's
drill attacks suffered heavily because of this in Mêlée.

 

[Antioch]

Want it more unique? Let's make it so that if Roy and Marth are standing right next to each other when they taunt (and they do it at around the same time), they'll kiss.

That's unique. And at least it won't make the game worse.

Yeah, that's a sure-fire approach at winning all across the board!

 

[Timeless]

Personally I think this freeze frame crap is going to ruin the game. Even without it, I think the general gameplay (without the freeze frame animations) is going to be slightly slower aswell.

Hopefully there is an option to turn this freeze framing off for the more advanced players.

 

[mooseproduce]

I loved the freeze frames in Smash 64. They were one of the things I missed in Mêlée, because it make all the hits look fluffly and non-hurtful (if you know what I mean). Like... Bomb-Ombs and Falcon Punches now look like flaming cotton balls of +10 softness, 'n' shît.

And yes, I play a very technical Smash 64. The game can be played just as fast as Mêlée. Freeze frames FTW!!!!

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

To me, it looks like Brawl is combining some of the better aspects of both games. It also seems that they're making previous advanced techniques a lot more accessible (and I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of them make it into the How To Play screen or instruction manual). That shouldnt be cause for worry though, because it's pretty much guaranteed that we're going to find "hidden" advanced techniques down the road anyway.

Besides, competitive play is all about the mindgames anyway. If technical knowledge becomes more widespread, we'll still be playing to see who's got the best mindgames.

 

[S_B]

Besides, competitive play is all about the mindgames anyway. If technical knowledge becomes more widespread, we'll still be playing to see who's got the best mindgames.

QFT.

I hope for nothing more in online Brawl.

 

[Funcow]

I actually like how it freezeframes.

 

[crescentia]

I would imagine with more freeze frames, they would tweak DI accordingly.

 

[Jeremy Feifer]

What's the problem with freeze frames?
1: The more freeze frames, the slower the matches become because it takes so long between when a hit connects and you can move again
2: The more freeze frames, the easier it becomes to combo someone. You don't need reaction speed to combo from those jabs anymore because the difference between it they shield your jab and if your jab connects is so huge it's almost impossible to miss
3: It's ugly.
4: Watch me DI every single smash perfectly.

Remember in SSB? The huge freeze frames there? Well, SSBB's got almost that many freeze frames on certain moves, primarily aerials and smashes. Some tilts and smashes don't have that many freeze frames (watch Zero-Suit Samus fight. She goes from tilt to dsmash almost instantaneously without many freeze frames, even on the dsmash).

What is this gonna become MvC2?....

I Hate you stupid wineing newbs...you just made this game 10times worst....I know we have all seen Isias...."dont get hit" ssb vid... is this what the game is now.... I dont accept this...I wont accept this...

 

[gnosis]

One thing about Melee and 64 is that 64 feels quite a bit more satisfying when you land a hit or combo, and that was mostly because of the sound effects and the freeze frames. Depending on how the final product ends up, bringing back some of that 'crunch' from 64 shouldn't be too dreadful.

I'll reserve judgment until I actually play the game though.

 

[Jeremy Feifer]

I'll reserve judgment until I actually play the game though.

I agree, I will play then judge.

 

[Xelyst]

I'm paranoid about the outcome >.> I personally dislike the excessive frames added.

 

[shinehex]

I am also kind of turned of by the additional frames(as well as the impact FX) but I am another who must play then cast my judgement.

 

[Miharu]

I'm paranoid about the outcome >.> I personally dislike the excessive frames added.

I agree, it just makes the game feel so much...slower. But I suppose that was the intended point of these additional freeze frames.

I'll be fine if it doesn't screw with the gameplay, as in slow the gameplay down, since that just makes it easier to execute combos, since the controls will be streamlined as well, but with larger margin for error, and a longer potential reaction time, it'll be easier to chain combos. On the flip side, it could possibly be easier to DI out of/escape combos, but I'm a bit skeptical about that.

Just hope for the best.

 

[shinehex]

Slower just to appeal to more people

 

[Miharu]

Slower just to appeal to more people

Yeah, that's why I'm disappointed. Nintendo has the slow the game down to please non-gamers who otherwise wouldn't be attracted to it.

Discrimination is primarily an econimic decision. They get more money that way.

 

[shinehex]

Well even though I am irked about the game speed I won't let it get the best of me. I'm sure it will still be a great game. Even if it turns out like Smash64(God forbid)LOL!

 

[mooseproduce]

"Nintendo has the slow the game down to please non-gamers who otherwise wouldn't be attracted to it."

I'm a gamer. I enjoy it. So bugger you!

I hope they're pandering to me in particular.

 

[S_B]

I hope they're pandering to me in particular.

I think it's safe to say that Sakurai is pandering to only one person: himself.

He even said something along the lines of not caring if people are angry with him because this will the the last SSB he'll ever lead.

 

[valoem]

I have decided to bump this thread since the issues with freeze frame was never resolved. First, there is no doubt in my mind that if freeze frames are there it WILL ruin the game. SSB64 did not have freeze frames, for all the reasons stated by yuna it will destory smash as we know it.

Luckily I did some research and had concluded:

FREEZE FRAMES WILL NOT BE IN BRAWL. (I assume from a hypothesis)

Please view the original Melee Trailer:
http://media.cube.ign.com/media/016/016387/vids_5.html

Notice that during Beta testing the exact same freeze frames were in the game. But they are not there anymore!!! Freeze frames are probably for beta testing purposes only. As Sakurai stated himself, "The game will be playable soon" in other words this game is not even playable to the testers as of right now. The game will probably be tested for a long time after the game becomes playable so we have awhile to wait!!!

 

[JJC]

Freeze frames aren't a bad thing. They were the best part of SSB64's physics and if they remove it for Brawl I'll be very dissapointed.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I have decided to bump this thread since the issues with freeze frame was never resolved. First, there is no doubt in my mind that if freeze frames are there it WILL ruin the game. SSB64 did not have freeze frames, for all the reasons stated by yuna it will destory smash as we know it.

Luckily I did some research and had concluded:

FREEZE FRAMES WILL NOT BE IN BRAWL. (I assume from a hypothesis)

Please view the original Melee Trailer:
http://media.cube.ign.com/media/016/016387/vids_5.html

Notice that during Beta testing the exact same freeze frames were in the game. But they are not there anymore!!! Freeze frames are probably for beta testing purposes only. As Sakurai stated himself, "The game will be playable soon" in other words this game is not even playable to the testers as of right now. The game will probably be tested for a long time after the game becomes playable so we have awhile to wait!!!

Your right.Thanks or sorting that out.

 

[gnosis]

Actually, Sakurai said that 'we', you and I, would have to wait a 'little longer' to play it. That implies the game is rather far in development, not that it's in some completely unplayable state.

And all hits have freeze frames of some sort; that's what hitstun is (the time from when you get hit by an attack to the time you are sent flying). Correct me if I'm wrong on that. But, if not, yeah, 64 and Melee have both had them, 64 just had quite a bit more than Melee.

Anyway, aside from that.

I'm actually digging the balance Brawl seems to be making; 64 was clunky and Melee was slippery, loosey goosey. Brawl, somehow, looks both solid and fluid. The engine will probably see some tweaking in between here and release, but I do like the direction its headed. I mean, the trailer fighting looks nice, so just comparing the progress made from Melee's trailer fighting to the modern pro's fighting has me pretty excited in Brawl's potential.

I also should note that I'm something of a Sakurai-fanboy. So I trust he can't and won't ruin this game.

 

[marthsword]

I thought the speed was perfect in melee if you could play and react well. I don't want it to be slower just so noobs can be better, I want the freeze frames not to be like in old school smash, but like melee.

 

[Thino]

Freeze frame are back, thats a good thing. I like those and unfortunately Melee doesnt have them.

 

[valoem]

Actually, Sakurai said that 'we', you and I, would have to wait a 'little longer' to play it. That implies the game is rather far in development, not that it's in some completely unplayable state.

And all hits have freeze frames of some sort; that's what hitstun is (the time from when you get hit by an attack to the time you are sent flying). Correct me if I'm wrong on that. But, if not, yeah, 64 and Melee have both had them, 64 just had quite a bit more than Melee.

Anyway, aside from that.

I'm actually digging the balance Brawl seems to be making; 64 was clunky and Melee was slippery, loosey goosey. Brawl, somehow, looks both solid and fluid. I mean, the trailer fighting looks nice, so just comparing the progress made from Melee's trailer fighting to the modern pro's fighting has me pretty excited in Brawl's potential.

I also should note that I'm something of a Sakurai-fanboy. So I trust he can't and won't ruin this game.

I think the game is not far at all in development. This is just my opinoin cause "we" could also mean, me and my team which is probably what he meant otherwise he would have said "you". Also the game was not playable at the Nintendo World Tour. Normally after a game become playable it is up for beta testing, for example Halo 3 is almost playable, but they are just now hiring pro gamers for beta testers (Microsoft is smart) Nintendo should do the same esp with the competitive level of smash.

Personally its doesn't matter what they do as long as the following are true:

Game is just as easy to pick up (be a scrub at not like virtual fighter game so complex turned some people away)
Game, in reality, has a higher learning curve than melee.

Anything else we can get use to.

EDIT: Don't kill me for saying this since I am a hardcore 64 player, but 64 is definately easier to master than melee, I havent mastered it like isai has or anything, but the game is easier, and making a sequal to a very competitive game that is easier to master than it predecessor is always bad news.

 

[gnosis]

You misunderstand. He did say 'you', but if I had put that, it would've sounded like Sakurai was talking directly to you; so I changed the pronoun due to the relational change. I.e., When I ask you to say "You're a person", and you say "I'm a person".

This is a common English practice, and I even clarified that I meant us and not Sakurai's team.