Extreme Freeze Frames - Sakurai's idea of "Making the game slower"?

[S_B]

The only other definition I can think of would be to lighten the learning curve, but in a game where your moves are things like "forward B" can hardly have the learning curve lightened unless you reduce the number of moves or take away something critical to the gameplay like the double jump.

Moves are only 25% of the game. The other 75% is the physics, timing, etc.

And this isn't aimed at you, Tak, but JEEZUS, listen to some of you people...

"omg! It's slowed down, I'M NOT GOING TO BUY IT OR A WII!!!! D@MN YOU TO HELL NINTENDO!!!! IMA GET A XBOX!!!"...El-oh-freaking-El

Seriously, if someone goes online with SSBB and they lose, it's because they suck, not because the game was made more "noob friendly", it's because any illusions of skill they thought they had are erroneous. In truth, they suck and after losing 2-3 games, they'll probably say, "Melee was the last REAL SSB game!!!!"

They'll blame the game, saying how SSBB ruined the franchise, blah, blah, whine, whine, cry, squeal, etc., despite the fact that SSBB WILL outsell Melee, probably by 2-3 million units.

If you get beat by a noob, YOU'RE the noob. Fact of life, people.

SSB is a great franchise because, at it's lowest form, it's a bunch of Nintendo characters beating the snot out of each other, and at it's highest form, it's a calculated contest of wit, speed, strategy and timing.

Being afraid that Brawl will break this trend is right up there with being afraid Nintendo will cater to non-gamers and forget their gaming roots.

If you have skill, you will win games. Being afraid of the game being "noob friendly" equates a lack of faith in your own abilities.

 

[9bit]

^ Best post in this thread so far.

You know, they said they'd be focusing more on aerial combat, maybe these freeze frames are what they meant.

I'm going to buy this game and I'm going to try to get as good as I can at it, regardless of what they change.

I really can't wait for the many, many people who, when they find out their favorite characters have had some moves changed or speed or weight changes, will come crying and saying how Brawl sucks. Why the hell would you want the characters to be exactly the same as they were in Melee... that would be so boring. This is a new game and I want to play a new way, just like we all did when we went from N64 to Melee.

 

[zerodownhm]

Moves are only 25% of the game. The other 75% is the physics, timing, etc.

And this isn't aimed at you, Tak, but JEEZUS, listen to some of you people...

"omg! It's slowed down, I'M NOT GOING TO BUY IT OR A WII!!!! D@MN YOU TO HELL NINTENDO!!!! IMA GET A XBOX!!!"...El-oh-freaking-El

Seriously, if someone goes online with SSBB and they lose, it's because they suck, not because the game was made more "noob friendly", it's because any illusions of skill they thought they had are erroneous. In truth, they suck and after losing 2-3 games, they'll probably say, "Melee was the last REAL SSB game!!!!"

They'll blame the game, saying how SSBB ruined the franchise, blah, blah, whine, whine, cry, squeal, etc., despite the fact that SSBB WILL outsell Melee, probably by 2-3 million units.

If you get beat by a noob, YOU'RE the noob. Fact of life, people.

SSB is a great franchise because, at it's lowest form, it's a bunch of Nintendo characters beating the snot out of each other, and at it's highest form, it's a calculated contest of wit, speed, strategy and timing.

Being afraid that Brawl will break this trend is right up there with being afraid Nintendo will cater to non-gamers and forget their gaming roots.

If you have skill, you will win games. Being afraid of the game being "noob friendly" equates a lack of faith in your own abilities.

Cause today you're not a pro unless you master glitches of the game, its ridiculous that these people think they are pros just cause they win by using this glitches and then they cry if this things are taken out or remade for making it more equal for all, if you can't win without glitch moves then what good are you? Thats why i learned things like WD but I never use it, I actually feel weak as a player if I use things like that, when I play for fun yeah sure its fun to use them, but to play seriously, use the game as it was meant to be used...

 

[THE PAIN]

A few things to consider:
First, when people talk about noobs ruining the game, the concern (which I believe to be a valid concern) is that the game will become less skill-based. I never played SSB64, but from reading the forums (this thread in particular) I get the impression that it didn't hit a skill level on par with Melee. You say that a skilled player can adjust to any smash engine, but the real question is how much skill that a smash engine will allow. If you took a party game like monkeyball or Mario party, your ability to get better at the game dies quickly (somebody who has played for 1000 hours isn't really going to be any better than somebody who's played for 100).

Now, as to appealing to as large of an audience as possible, smash already does that. The amount of learning before you have fun in SSBM is very tiny, thus, casual gamers love it. However, the ridiculously high potential skill level in the game is makes it equally appealing to hardcore competitive gamers.

Really, the smallest audience is highly skilled people who can't find other highly skilled people, but those of you who are in that situation are talking as if you're part of the majority.

I have to disagree strongly with the statement above that the dev team is unaware of the skill differences of millions of players. Smash is the NUMBER 1 title on the gamecube, and they would have to be absolute idiots not to spend a significant amount of time on websites and forums, finding out about these millions of smashers.

Takalth for president.

i feel exactly the same way
the reason i am even going to buy the wii is because of zelda and smash bros brawl. i have played many fighting games. but to me the best is melee so far becuase of the amazing comboes that can be performed and the speed of the game. if they slow it down in my opinion they are degrading the game.i dont think all hope is lost though. if you see metaknight and pit fight they look pretty fast.

 

[j0e w00dy]

If you get beat by a noob, YOU'RE the noob. Fact of life, people.

If you have skill, you will win games. Being afraid of the game being "noob friendly" equates a lack of faith in your own abilities.

yeap, exactly...
i think its hilarious when ppls excuse for losing is that they "just got beat by a n00b"

uummm...ok?

but honestly like i said before its a new game and theres going to be a learning curve for everyone...no matter what skill level your at...its gonna be a new experience. the playing field will most likely be leveled at first, but eventually the best will surface

 

[Chris of STARS]

In response to the original post...great explanation. I saw and comprehended exactly what you were talking about from the videos, but you put it into words well. That's exactly what I noticed too...alot of the moves seem to have that lag, or freeze frames, as you put it. Just like in Smash 64.

 

[Yellow Mage]

I agree with the smart people here, as in, those who think similar to Smash Brother (and actually Mic 128, who would've thought we'd ever agree?) concerning this issue of the game being faired down a bit.

SSBM is the REAL oddball of the SSB series, and those who are bad without thier precious abuses are just the noobs themselves.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Again, you astound me with your lack of logic. SSBM isn't an oddball. It's a logical progression from SSB - What more could they add other than dodges and a couple moves? SSBB, if it does turn out as much like SSB as everyone thinks it will, will be a step backward, not forward. Also, even if SSBM were vastly different, it can't be an oddball when there is only one to compare it to. That's like standing a white and black sheep against each other with no former knowledge of sheep and saying the white one is odd.


As for the "precious abuses", the only abuse in SSBM is the wavedash, which is probably going to be dwarfed if those quick-dodges in the video turn out to be as awesome as they look. L cancelling, SHFFLing, edge hogging, and everything else are not abuse. They're all intentional.

 

[Zombie Cola]

Actually, I took issue with the speed because I'm the only hardcore gamer of my group and thus am the only one who has the reflex to bring characters up to their full potential.

The end result? Even when people win, they know I'm "playing down to their level" so it makes it a hollow victory for them. I play as Bowser to level the field and I still win most of the time, but it gives them more of a chance.

.

This is the single most conceited statement on these forums. Sorry, had to point it out.

 

[S_B]

Again, you astound me with your lack of logic. SSBM isn't an oddball. It's a logical progression from SSB - What more could they add other than dodges and a couple moves?

That's up for debate, and sadly, the only head in which that opinion actually matters is Sakurai's. From what I've read, he DIDN'T like the changes from SSB to SSBM.

To be honest, all I wanted in a SSB sequel was the EXACT SAME ENGINE, just new characters, levels and a little balancing, but to leave the engine perfectly intact.

After 700 hours of combined game time logged on SSB and counting, I had no reason to believe that the game was anything but perfect for how it was.

I ain't saying this is how it'll be, but don't be surprised if SSBB gravitates toward being more like the original than Melee.

This is the single most conceited statement on these forums. Sorry, had to point it out.

Let me say this right now: I SUCK at SSBM compared to likely 90% of the people here. I can't wavedash very well, never played in a tournament and don't even play Melee anymore.

My only point is that I'm the best in my circle, but that doesn't mean ANYTHING in the grand scheme of things.

My intention wasn't to brag about my skills. It was to point out that I'll never know how good/bad I actually am because I'm isolated from potential equal opponents.

Doing what I mentioned doing (going easy on people) is called "sandbagging". If you pound the snot out of people every game, watch how long it takes for them to get fed up and never play against you ever again (hint: not very long).

 

[j0e w00dy]

Again, you astound me with your lack of logic. SSBM isn't an oddball. It's a logical progression from SSB - What more could they add other than dodges and a couple moves? SSBB, if it does turn out as much like SSB as everyone thinks it will, will be a step backward, not forward. Also, even if SSBM were vastly different, it can't be an oddball when there is only one to compare it too. That's like standing a white and black sheep against each other with no former knowledge of sheep and saying the white one is odd.

i disagree man. i don't think SSBB is gonna be a step backwards...only forwards. nintendo and sakurai arnt idiots. look at how much we enjoy their games already. theyre going in the direction they feel is right...and in the direction they feel is a progression to the series.

and also in his defense...i think he was taking SSBB into account also...comparing the 3 games. if SSBB is "more like SSB64" then SSBM would be the oddball of the three...
just thought id point that out...altho i dont think ne of the 3 games will be an 'oddball'

This is the single most conceited statement on these forums. Sorry, had to point it out.

not really...he didnt say hes the best player in the world
just in his group of friends or whatever.
a lot of ppl on this forum probly feel the same way (including myself)

 

[Takalth]

and those who are bad without thier precious abuses are just the noobs themselves.

There are no players who are bad without wavedashing and other "precious abuses" yet are good with them. I learned to wavedash with Samus, one of the best wavedashers, and for a long time, it hurt my game, not helped it. Advanced techniques (most of which, are intentional features) are worth little on their own. It's when a skilled player takes these tools and implements them into their game that they become powerful.

I find that the anti-wavedashing crowd almost universally misunderstands it. All those threads about crawling killing wavedashing are downright laughable because they demonstrate how vastly people misunderstand the physics of it. In addition, so many people will lose to somebody who wavedashes and blame it on the wavedashing, not on the skill of the player.

Now, that being said, it does annoy me when I see people who think that removing wavedashing will destroy the game. My only real concern is how much they think about the competitive side of Smash during development. If all of the familiar stuff is removed, but new stuff makes the depth and skill potential equally high, that's great. On the other hand, if they start cutting advanced techniques and slowing down the game without sufficient replacement, they'd be moving in the direction of Mario Party and Monkeyball, which are not suited for hardcore competitive play. That, in fact, would ruin smash.

 

[Trespayne]

I really don't think SSBB should get any slower from SSBM. Some of my friends play on lightning mode because it is so much more fun compared to normal mode. They would be very angry if SSBB got even slower than SSBM. I have to admit lightning can be fun, so I really hope they don't slow the game down even more.

 

[Pye]

Yea, I noticed that especially looooooong freeze-frame (yey! a new term!) on Link's dair in the new Brawl trailer.

To be honest, I only played SSB64 for a little while right after it's release (AKA everyone sucked at it), so I didn't have the opportunity to see a shift in speed between it and SSBM. All I know is, I liked the speed in SSBM. In fact, when my friends and I are bored, we play Lightning Melee as Captain Falcons with Bunny Hoods on very high (a word of advice if you try this: do not attempt to moonwalk. You WILL die). I like the game's fastness

IMO, slowing it down would take away a chunk of what I enjoy. The heated battle and such. Remember, in the words of Tim Buckly: "It's not [the developper's] responsibility to make the game easier so people can suck less" ^_^

Melee was fun for casual and compeditive players alike, as was SSB64. I'm sure Brawl can do the same. SSB in general is a game thats naturally like that.

 

[Zodiak-Lucien]

I wouldnt jump to that big of a conclusion yet. Sakurai never said he would slow down the game he said "moderate". Which doesnt have to mean slow down. When he was asked the question about the game being too fast. He wont just say "no its fine as it is". He has to say something that will make the person answer the question happy without directly answering the question. Saying that the speed will be moderated, I think, means that the faster become slower and the slower become faster. This doesnt make the game as a whole slower, it just moderates the speed.

 

[pikachun00b7]

****! this suks then.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

You know, the game isn't complete yet. There's no shielding air dodging or throwing seen... the hit lag stuff might not have been tweaked yet, so don't worry too much till the game is at closer to done...

But yeah Yuna I am a tad worried about it, but the gameplay still seems sorta fast to me...I think everything will be ok. Overall, it's still on the Gamecube. Didn't they say they were using the Melee engine? I dunno. It looks pretty good to me. Meta Knight runs faster than I thought he would... which makes me desire him 9_9

There's a lot of weird discussion taking place on this thread... seems to be a tad off topic... but I, personally, think Melee is **** near perfect. Never has there been a game I have played so consistently since it came out. I really want Brawl to be better than Melee which is hard for me to imagine. There's something about the game. Lemme get an example. landing a triple knee combo with CF and the way it all "feels" so I hope that feeling comes back, in whatever form...

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I agree with the smart people here, as in, those who think similar to Smash Brother (and actually Mic 128, who would've thought we'd ever agree?) concerning this issue of the game being faired down a bit.

Being faired down?I cannot believe you are still trying to expell this argument around here.Because one cannot achieve a level of success n a game,doesn't mean that the ones who are successful,and worked hard to achieve their level of skill doesn't mean that the should suffer.

SSBM is the REAL oddball of the SSB series, and those who are bad without thier precious abuses are just the noobs themselves.

Excuse me sir,but you really don't know what a noob really is.

A Noob is the general term for someone who tinks they excell in hence subject,typically trash talk,and has no knowledge.

So according to your asinine assumption,you believe that all of the experts in this game are noobs?Even though that they are the best in the world.You don't relize that you ae the noob here,because you have no general understanding of advanced techniques,and you probably don't play this game on a competative level.The things that make a proffesional what he is isn't abusing a technique,but having the reflexes,skill,and mental abilities to fight an opponent wth skill,the tehniques are just used to enhance aspects of gameplay.

You can WaveDash all over the entire stage,but that on't earn you a KO,you can Randomly SHFFLC all you want,but that wont earn you a KO.You must have the skill to control a technique,not just abuse it.You knowledge of smash is minimal at best.

Why don't you practice the techniques,and then abuse them in battle,and i can assure you that you won't win just by abusing them.

And we would appreciate if you would stop whining because you thik the game should be fair because you can't play well.If you can't do it,oh well.Not everyone can excell in everything.And i don't see how someone of your intelligence can't relize that.

And since you think that i'm a noob because i use advanced techs(Well,that's your theory),if you happen to be in California,Money Match me then,since you don't need techs to win,and i and the other hundreds of people here are noobs,you should have no problem 4-stocking me.

 

[A-Laon]

Please, please, please. This is an intelligent thread regarding a possible concern of Brawl. I can understand your anger (oh! far too well!), but let's not derail this into another "'exploits' vs 'pro'" arguement. Alright?

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Could it be that only Pit and Metaknight have extreme stuns on their attacks since their many-hit combos would be trash if the opponent flew off? For the sake of the trailer, could they not have been playing at damage 150%? Since when does a Up Smash from Kirby instantly star (yes I know there wasn't a star animation) KO a character as heavy as Link? It doesn't.


I'm not saying the fear of Freeze Frames is unfounded, but I also think you're looking at it as if it's actual gameplay footage rather than what it really is: A trailer to get people excited about fast-paced crazy looking action.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Please, please, please. This is an intelligent thread regarding a possible concern of Brawl. I can understand your anger (oh! far too well!), but let's not derail this into another "'exploits' vs 'pro'" arguement. Alright?

Your right,but i just can't stand when he buts into topics just to throw around his lack of knowledge,he needs to understand that those techniques are not abused at all,it's just the skill of the player,and if the player just so happens to use those techniques on his gameplay to enhance it,it's just that,not the tech.Because learning it will do nothing unless used effectivly.

But anyway,i have no problem with the extreme freeze frames in gameplay,even though fear of 0%-Death combos come to mind,the freeze frames allow for better DI,which in term will make id difficult to combo an opponent.So theoreticaly,it balances itself out,thus enhancing the difficuly of competative play.

And besides,i love the combos that you can do in SSB64,so i'm sure that it would be fun.

 

[6th Sense]

I'm pretty sure it will be slowed down between melee & 64 for the purpose of easier combo potential I think thats good and bad thing but we'll just have to see.......

 

[S_B]

It's GOING to be slower. It has to be.

If the game will go online, then the "twitch" gameplay of SSBM won't translate cleanly online where latency will ALWAYS play a role.

Even if everyone is on broadband, the ultra-fast gameplay of Melee won't be possible.

With any luck, the game will have a speed setting and make everyone happy...

 

[bluebomber22]

With any luck, the game will have a speed setting and make everyone happy...

I think having a speed setting will just create a lot of confusion. Who will decide what speed setting to use for tournaments? And since everyone will play on a different speed setting people will always argue about which one is best. The point is somebody somewhere is going to complain about the speed of the game no matter what the speed is, but they will still buy it, play it, and have fun. So for those of you who don't like "freeze frames," you'll learn to deal with it and just get used to it.

 

[shinehex]

I don't have a problem with the freeze frames as long as the game retains a "new" feel and not the N64 feel.

 

[j0e w00dy]

I don't have a problem with the freeze frames as long as the game retains a "new" feel and not the N64 feel.

right. i think thats the main thing...
a lot of ppl fear its going to be SSB64 with better graphics. doubt it. i still think that its gonna be completely diff from the previous two in a lotta ways. each game will continue to be unique...just pogressing the series in whatever direction it goes.

 

[Cojiro]

i still think that its gonna be completely diff from the previous two in a lotta ways. each game will continue to be unique...just pogressing the series in whatever direction it goes.

Exactly. Can I just say, this is one of the most civil discussions (albeit with a few exceptions) I've seen on this, or indeed any, internet forum.

This freeze-frame thing may end up being a big issue, but I'm sure the really good people on here and in the Smash community (certainly not me, but you tourney guys ) will adapt really quickly.

Think of the difference in the way pros played the game from the start of it's life to now. The SSBB metagame will develop, as it did for SSB64 and SSBM.

Chill.

 

[ResidentWaffle]

Even if you lose because of the speed of moves you'll still probally lose to pro's mindgames. Also doesn't making it slower make montages look less cool?

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

TaroNuke //Is back said:
If you get beat by a noob, YOU'RE the noob. Fact of life, people.

Phil (HA! you cant say i spelt that rong) says:
no

Phil (HA! you cant say i spelt that rong) says:
if u get beet by a noob on a regular basis then u are a noob

Phil (HA! you cant say i spelt that rong) says:
noobs win ocationaly

 

[DarkFr0g]

Nintendo is probably focusing on making it a PARTY game, not an extreme competitive game. That way, anyone can pick it up and play, and be decent. I don't like the slowness of SSB64, but I'm sure that it'll still be fun with all the new characters, levels and bunches of new things.

 

[A-Laon]

Nintendo is probably focusing on making it a PARTY game, not an extreme competitive game. That way, anyone can pick it up and play, and be decent.

Please don't say things like that. They make my heart internally bleed.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

Nintendo is probably focusing on making it a PARTY game, not an extreme competitive game. That way, anyone can pick it up and play, and be decent. I don't like the slowness of SSB64, but I'm sure that it'll still be fun with all the new characters, levels and bunches of new things.

OH THAT SOUNDS AWFUL

 

[froz3ntear]

Nintendo is probably focusing on making it a PARTY game, not an extreme competitive game. That way, anyone can pick it up and play, and be decent. I don't like the slowness of SSB64, but I'm sure that it'll still be fun with all the new characters, levels and bunches of new things.

OR they could make it both a party game and competitive game just like how melee gave you the options of 4 players, great stages, items, time limit, stocks, time mode, coins and style mode, but it also gave you the ability to limit the random stages to the most balance stages, 1v1, stocks, and time limit just like a competitive fighting game.

You say that a skilled player can adjust to any smash engine, but the real question is how much skill that a smash engine will allow. If you took a party game like monkeyball or Mario party, your ability to get better at the game dies quickly (somebody who has played for 1000 hours isn't really going to be any better than somebody who's played for 100).

Now, as to appealing to as large of an audience as possible, smash already does that. The amount of learning before you have fun in SSBM is very tiny, thus, casual gamers love it. However, the ridiculously high potential skill level in the game is makes it equally appealing to hardcore competitive gamers.

Really, the smallest audience is highly skilled people who can't find other highly skilled people, but those of you who are in that situation are talking as if you're part of the majority.

You speak the truth.

I hate how scrubs want the game to lower its limits so that they can reach its potential easier. Nintendo will just focus on making the game balanced while adding enough variety to keep the game fun (the more variables you add, the harder it is to keep the game balanced) and the casual gamer can choose to take the game as far they want. Why should nintendo focus on making the game so easy that everyone can do everything right away making the learning curve crap. Thats boring and the scrub way to think. The game is a work of art, its so simple yet has potential to be so complex. It has no sequences to memorize, all the attacks are revealed from the beggining, direction button, a or b, in the air or on the ground and thats bout it, yet the ability to combine and apply the moves are endless.

Every scrub who starts playing for a couple of weeks wants the ability to play like a pro and feel like a pro, but just like anything you do, playing an instrument, sport, or game, it requires discapline and practice. Why should dedicated gamers be punished for wanting to learn new techniques and push the game to the limits. Why should techniques be taken away so that scrubs have less to learn and dedicated players have nowhere to go. There are enough casual players, if you want to be like them, play with them, dont be jealous and try to hurt the competitive community by trying to take things away.

There are no players who are bad without wavedashing and other "precious abuses" yet are good with them. I learned to wavedash with Samus, one of the best wavedashers, and for a long time, it hurt my game, not helped it. Advanced techniques (most of which, are intentional features) are worth little on their own. It's when a skilled player takes these tools and implements them into their game that they become powerful.

I find that the anti-wavedashing crowd almost universally misunderstands it. All those threads about crawling killing wavedashing are downright laughable because they demonstrate how vastly people misunderstand the physics of it. In addition, so many people will lose to somebody who wavedashes and blame it on the wavedashing, not on the skill of the player.

Someone I can completely agree with. The game has always and will always be about the player. IF you lose to someone, saying its because they can wavedash is a really poor excuse. Like how those people who learn how to wavedash and lose to smash spamming scrubs complaining bout being so advanced and doing bad against newbs. They don't understand a single thing bout being a competitive player, its not the techniques that make the player, but the player who uses the techniques in the correct ways. Just knowing techniques are useless. They were created for a reason out of nessecity to overcome situations and scenerios. Some people will never understand that and continue to wavedash into attacks and into death with the illusion of being an "advanced player"

 

[maelstrom218]

If that's true, then I would commit Hara-kiri.

I think HAL recognized that Smash wasn't simply a party game. . .their decision to include the option to remove items, as well as the surprisingly frame-demanding strats like teching, meteor-cancelling, and L-cancelling suggests that they knew how competitive Smash could potentially be.

Now, here's the question: just what do the developers of Brawl and Sakurai know about SSBM? Nintendo Power made advanced tactics pretty public, and I'm sure that any developer of a fighter would want to investigate internet feedback to see how the fighter's developed, as fans will always develop exploits and the like.

However, I'm taking a stab in the dark and saying that Sakurai's intent to "make the game slower" and focus more on "aerial combat" reflects that he has no idea about competitive smash whatsoever. Most game updates (new Street Fighters, or Guilty Gears) tend to stick to the existing formula while adding some minor and interesting tactics/moves/characters. But in this case, it looks like Sakurai changed the whole friggin' engine by slowing everything down.

. . .which suggests to me that he might actually want Brawl to be more party-game like as opposed to a real fighter. And if that happens, I will quit Smash. Permanently. And then I'll start playing GGXX instead.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

They say they want this game new and different then melee. Seems to me they are going back to 64 style. I like ssb but melee is sooooooooo much better! Im a big fan of if its not broke dont fix it. They could add some new chars, new lvls, and maybe some new movesets, and I would be happy. As for freeze frames, god help the tournament world.

 

[A-Laon]

They say they want this game new and different then melee. Seems to me they are going back to 64 style. I like ssb but melee is sooooooooo much better! Im a big fan of if its not broke dont fix it. They could add some new chars, new lvls, and maybe some new movesets, and I would be happy. As for freeze frames, god help the tournament world.

Expanding onto the broader topic, quite frankly, I'd rather have a "Melee Expansion Pack" than a whole new game. Melee has struck perfection - I have no complaints and never could. From here, making drastic changes leaves nowhere to go but down.

 

[S_B]

right. i think thats the main thing...
a lot of ppl fear its going to be SSB64 with better graphics. doubt it. i still think that its gonna be completely diff from the previous two in a lotta ways. each game will continue to be unique...just pogressing the series in whatever direction it goes.

Not that I think SSBB WILL be, mind you, but...

I wanted nothing more than for SSBM to be SSB64 with better graphics, more characters, levels and balance.

I'm biased on this, though, and I'll explain why...

It was 1999. I had just graduated high school, and I was glad to be rid of it. Don't get me wrong, I did fine in school standing, but I am of the sort who prefers self-education over any other.

My dear cousin, Donna, decided to give me a Blockbuster gift card, valued at $25. So two friends and I headed down to our local BB and took a look around the store. I found the CD section to be lackluster, except for Metallica's Garage Inc CD, which would be one of two Metallica CDs I own. The 2 disc set cost $22 or $23, I can't remember. Either way, I had just enough cash left over to rent a game...

You can guess which game was rented.

I didn't adore the game at first. After the three day rental period, I returned it to BB, thinking that it was a decent game without too much potential for any kind of entertainment value. Then, the strangest thing happened...

About a week later, I started craving it. I'll never be able to explain how or why, but I wanted to play the game again. First, it was just a twinge of desire, but it soon blossomed into a need to purchase it. So I went to an Ames store, one relatively close to BB, and purchased it for $55, $5 more than retail.

Since then, I always like to think about how much that extra $5 has paid off time and time again. 600+ hours of SSB gameplay later, I've saved more money on movie tickets, arcades, and other means of "entertainment" which I would have purchased in lieu of SSB.

This game draws everyone together. I don't have a single friend who isn't willing to participate in the game whenever it's played. Since the day I purchased it, SSB became a symbol of togetherness unlike any other in my circle. Everyone played it, everyone loved it. It wasn't uncommon to have 8 people in a room gathered around the TV swapping off controllers.

But Melee didn't have the same pull. Most friends couldn't get into it the same way they got into SSB. The game was too fast, the controls too loose. One of my friends commented that it felt more Mortal Kombat-like due to the emphasis on quick weak attacks while another said it felt like a cheap arcade port due to the emphasis on speed and flashiness over tight, paced gameplay.

I know most people won't agree with any of this, but as the saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

With SSB, we had 600+ hours logged, everyone played it (even if they didn't play well) and it was the epicenter of my social circle. We even joked that if we were rich, we'd start a biker gang called "The Smash Bros.", or paint a conversion van with a decal of Link and Samus fighting and on the inside have a TV with an N64 and a couch, or that we'd buy one of those party boats and call it the "Smash Boat", replete with TV and N64 on board.

My name is "Smash_Brother" because SSB64 was not a game for me and mine: it was an event, a group activity which drew us like moths to a flame. For a while, I had two friends and a brother who were all my skill level and when we played, ANYTHING could happen: any of the four of us could have won and those were the absolute best games of Smash anyone will EVER play.

But Melee didn't have the same pull and I suppose I've never fully forgiven it for that. I don't know who at HAL thought it would be a good idea to fix something which wasn't broken, but SSB was perfect, with a few balance issues to resolve, sure, but it was otherwise everything it needed to be.

So yeah, I hope Brawl turns out to be far, far more like SSB64 than SSBM, and I know you might not agree with that, but remember that A) nothing will change my feelings on the subject and B) we're just two fanboys arguing on a website so my opinion and yours are both meaningless anyway.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

This game draws everyone together. I don't have a single friend who isn't willing to participate in the game whenever it's played. Since the day I purchased it, SSB became a symbol of togetherness unlike any other in my circle. Everyone played it, everyone loved it. It wasn't uncommon to have 8 people in a room gathered around the TV swapping off controllers.

Melee has the same affect on us here at school. To this day you cant go by the game room here in the dorms and find less then 2 people playing melee. Maybe its just when we were introduced to the game, but I never played ssb64 untill after I played melee. Thus, I love melee and find 64 child-like and unbalanced. BUT, you are right, it is your opinion and I cant change it. Im just stating mine. And again you are right that we cant change the way they make the game. Its just fun putting our ideas on the net.

No matter how they make brawl I will be there to buy it on release day.

 

[A-Laon]

Very well presented Smash_Brother.

Now, I myself am the exact opposite.

To me, gaming has always provided a brilliant personal challenge. From the moment in my early years that I played my first ever video game (Crash 2, PSone, 1997), I instantly became dedicated to the mastery and perfection of these tests of skill (and in many cases: intellect). Throughout my years of gaming, I had an undeniable drive to achieve my absolute best as the feeling of personal satisfaction from conquering such tests of skill was an unbeatable experience at that age.

Unsurprisingly, this has also shaped my character for today.

As I matured as a gamer and heightened my level of ability for my own personal content, in correlation with the growth of gaming, I ended up becoming addicted to what was then the newfound world of intense competitive multiplayer. I was with those of my same stance: gamers who live and thrive on aspiration of improvement and personal bests. Additionally, I could now take my own best and compare it and improve it in accordance to that of others, and as my dedication grew with my love for the thrill, I soon started entering tournaments for my favorite games, living what I had always aspired to.

...and merely June of this year, Melee was added to my roster of challenges, totally from out of the blue. Needless to say, the insanely profound, intense competitive aspect of the game drew me to it almost magnetically. I cannot be torn from competition, and Melee's insanely competitive. Just use your transitive property.

So, now that I've rambled on using my own life story to exemplify the other half of the gaming spectrum (apart from what SB ellaborated on), I finally feel fulfilled enough to shut the hell up and get to the freakin' point.

I, like many others, am drawn to games for the challenge - the test of the skill - and the clash of ability between others. Games that do not allow me to utilize my fullest ability and desire for perfection fail to interest me for a long time, which is why the deeply competitive nature of Melee has brought me so drawn to it. To see Brawl lose this potential would devastate the series for me, and all others like me.

But, of course, not everybody feels the same way as I do... I'm looking at you Smash_Brother.

In the end, the only logical and rightful thing for any of us to hope to come of Brawl would be the ultimate balance of both worlds -- the playability and simplistic addicting fun for those in it for the experience, yet also the potential complexity and depth to please everybody looking for a challenge. It's a difficult equilibrium to achieve, but it would be the optimal result for Smash's biggest entry yet, and I can only hope to see it prove true on that faithful day of release.

 

[S_B]

In the end, the only logical and rightful thing for any of us to hope to come of Brawl would be the ultimate balance of both worlds -- the playability and simplistic addicting fun for those in it for the experience, yet also the potential complexity and depth to please everybody looking for a challenge. It's a difficult equilibrium to achieve, but it would be the optimal result for Smash's biggest entry yet, and I can only hope to see it prove true on that faithful day of release.

I'm not clear on how we disagree.

I didn't mean to say that I don't relish challenge: I do! It's just that SSB64 created a social pull as much as it did a challenge pull. Like I said, those 4-way games where any one of us could have won because we were all equally matched were, by far, the BEST ever played. It was the thrill of the challenge which made those games so much fun.

And I cannot, repeat, WILL NOT, let myself get excited for Brawl in the same way I did for Melee because it was such a let down for me.

However, I think that, with an online mode, Brawl could indeed provide the pull and the challenge in one package. The speed of Melee isn't necessary to add depth to the game: SSB64 accomplished this without speed so I see no reason why Brawl would need it to accomplish the same feat.

But maybe Brawl could be both: paced so that rookie players can play and enjoy it but when everyone leaves, I can log into Wii24 and have matches where I'm literally sweating from the intensity.

It's in my best interest to hope that everyone gets what they want from Brawl.