EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[Pluplue]

@Plup

In my experience, if I come down with a nair such that a normal character can wavedash back to avoid it, Jiggs can sh away and come back with a bair that leads into a bair train. They can't challenge our nair outright, but they can easily avoid it and hit right after it ends.

ok well they can obviously read you if you full hop and fall on top of them with a nair, yes. I guess I meant tossing out nairs whenever you're in the air and about to land. Because like you said, jiggs cant really contend with the neutral air so if you can abuse that. I kind of wish I had some of my matches with hbox recorded so I could show you.

My main prob with jiggs is that once im in my shield im ****ed. If I wd back I almost always get baired and if I nair oos I get punished easily, up b oos works better but it still doesn't seem like my best option.

 

[Pi]

My main prob with jiggs is that once im in my shield im ****ed. If I wd back I almost always get baired and if I nair oos I get punished easily, up b oos works better but it still doesn't seem like my best option.

yea pretty much
and jiggs honestly never needs to put herself in a position to get UB'd OoS
she can just bair at/around you all day and there's not much you can do
FearZ was doing that one day, and it was pretty bad, i found myself just putting out as many missiles as i can and forcing him to chase me around, to some success

SH Fair OoS might be a safer move to whiff with than nair/UB

oh yea, what you can try is switching between light shielding & full shielding
when you light shield her bair pushes you far away so she kinda has to move toward you to keep pressuring your shield so once you condition them to that you can switch to full shielding and maybe get some UB's

pretty weak tactic but most are in this matchup

 

[Pluplue]

whoa short hop fair? in my experience with like all matchups, you don't want to force your fair to contend with other attacks. does that actually work for you?

 

[Pi]

i've had success with it OoS on spacies
and just in general vs. the mario brothers, especially luigi who's aerials always seem to trade with my nair

but fair is disjointed, the only problem with fair is it has gaps

jk it's not really disjointed, but to some extent it is, at least moreso than her other aerials, in front of her at least.

and yea, fair is our fastest aerial

aside from UB, and maybe zair?

 

[Rat]

I like fair a lot actually. (not really in the jiggs match-up.)

The first hit-box is really fast.
It covers space in a pretty unique way.
Pretty much anything that comes into the Zone up and in front of samus, is like free hits with fair. Well...not against like Bairs though, as those have ridiculous priority. Like I can do it on reaction pretty well. So it's a good intercept against slow moves. Ganon facing you. Pretty much any move CF can do in the air. Peach in her stupid floating fair zone.

Fair has a lot of weird combos too. =/


Also plu, I saw you use Nair out of shield in some of your videos. What do you think of it? I've tried without much success. Why do it instead of UpB or Bair?

 

[Pluplue]

nair out of shield is just opportunistic IMO. also ive been trying to not up b out of shield as much lately (except vs falco). its kind of stupid how good players will punish it even after all of the up b hits land.

 

[Pi]

nair out of shield is just opportunistic IMO. also ive been trying to not up b out of shield as much lately (except vs falco). its kind of stupid how good players will punish it even after all of the up b hits land.

land, run over to you, shine upsmash

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

My problem with UP+B OoS is that spacies can CC-Tech it for as high as 50%, it's really lame. I only do it on certain player if they're near or above platforms, otherwise it's just a free combo for them.


Versus Jiggs I hate how just slight timing changes affect the way her priority is. One point i can add a little bit of pressure with Forward Tilt, the other time she beating me clean with her Bairs through my tilts. That match is still one of my better ones tho. (experience~wise)

 

[resTy]

Samus vs. Falco. How do I deal with Laser(s)->Dair through my shield->Advantage. My buddy has been abusing this vs. me and I have no idea what to do against it.

Mainly the Dair through my shield tactic throws me off because it feels like if I commit to a Wavedash OOS->Attack I usually get nailed with something because Falco is GDLK. I've tried UpB but if Falco goes through my shield it never hits him.

How do you guys deal with this stupid crap?

 

[Pi]

Samus vs. Falco. How do I deal with Laser(s)->Dair through my shield->Advantage. My buddy has been abusing this vs. me and I have no idea what to do against it.

Mainly the Dair through my shield tactic throws me off because it feels like if I commit to a Wavedash OOS->Attack I usually get nailed with something because Falco is GDLK. I've tried UpB but if Falco goes through my shield it never hits him.

How do you guys deal with this stupid crap?

move around as much as you can
only way he can reliably dair through your shield is if he knows right where you're shielding

as weird as it sounds you need to be shielding as little as posssible in this matchup ._.
all the while not getting lasered


also, try to nair OoS after he lasers, but before he dairs at you
lmk how it works
i'm trying to find out when to use nair OoS in that matchup

 

[Geist]

Lasers give you less shield stun than you think. I'm willing to bet that most of the time you'd be able to UpB before he hits you with dair.

 

[resTy]

Useful advice guys. Thanks. I'll take this into consideration next time I game.

 

[Pi]

*clears throat*
powershield vs. falcon aerials

 

[Geist]

Well while you're at it, might as well powershield everything.

 

[edgeluca]

Blowtoes is my hero

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

*clears throat*
powershield vs. falcon aerials

I wish I was that good. Sadly, my reflexes suck.



BTW, are you going to that tourney @ the ZP March 5th?

 

[Pi]

Serious Post

Well while you're at it, might as well powershield everything.

That's the plan, I'll let you know how it goes.

I feel like at the very least, certain moves can and should be reliably powershield to give you more options OoS
Most of falcon's Aerials
Marth's Dair (since he usually uses it to **** your CC so you know it's coming)
Ganon's Fair, cause ***** is hella slow
Falco's dair/nair approach

And when you think about it, in most of those matchups, 1 Dsmash can go a long way.

I wish I was that good. Sadly, my reflexes suck.



BTW, are you going to that tourney @ the ZP March 5th?

If I have off work I'll definitely take a car down, and if I don't I'll see if any one wants to cover my shift

 

[AntoPark]

Hey, sami.
How often do you guys light shield?
And is it bad that I'm giving up the ability to light shield(comfortably) for more consistent power shields?
(I hold down L when I plug in my controller)

 

[Geist]

Well I also play a bit of GaW, so I got into the habit of doing it a lot.
And considering you have 2 buttons for shielding, (or 3 if you count Z) that's probably not a problem.

 

[Pi]

yea i usually light shield with Z when i do
i use to do it more, but stopped, idk why, i guess when i started trying to UpB kids more

 

[Rat]

Light shielding is great.

Your on a platform and are about to get *****. Light Shield. Samus's feet are super vulnerable.

In the corner against Marth? Light shield. Dtilt will push you too the edge.

Going against ridiculous shield pressure? Light Shield and get pushed out.

 

[Pi]

In the corner against Marth? Light shield. Dtilt will push you too the edge.

On the edge vs. marth

Nty

 

[Ørn]

I used to light shield constantly, though I'm sure it made me miss some opportunities to punish, lol.

I definitely agree with Rat though. Light shield when you're being pressured on your shield and your opponent spaces it well.

Anyway quick question: I was playing around with Sheik in training mode and I was reminded that Samus actually has a decent nair out of shield, too. I've never really thought of using it though because, well, it seems like there's never really any good opportunities to use it, and Up B generally sets up better on levels with platforms. Would it be applicable when the opponent is in KO range, though? It seems fairly slow, so I have a feeling you'd get punished hard for it if you miss.

 

[Pi]

nair OoS is good, and can be used as an alternate punishment for moves that you can't shield grab;
fox/falco Fsmash can be nair OoS 100% of the time, though the window is rather small, same with their dash attack

plup uses it (and I've been tooling around with it in this fashion) to thwart would be aerial approaches

but as you know guessing with an aerial as samus can have some dire consequences if your opponent baits it

i've had some success with it after shielding a getup attack from the ledge, i believe it was on the spacies

maybe maths getup attack can be hit with it as well, not sure, it can hit a standing spacie, but idk about much lower than that and marth has weird poses

i would wager that anything shiek can do with it, samus can do

 

[Geist]

Definitely a risk/reward thing.

 

[Pi]

Definitely a risk/reward thing.

i wouldn't say it like that

i'd rather catch a spacie with a nair OoS when they fsmash it than an UpB

much less riskier, but harder to perform

 

[Ørn]

but as you know guessing with an aerial as samus can have some dire consequences if your opponent baits it

Indeed, as you can see I just edited my post to say the same thing, lol.

Really good advice though, I feel like I'm getting much better at knowing how to respond to certain situations against most characters, so examples like the ones you provided really help!

By the way, since you brought this up:

fox/falco Fsmash can be nair OoS 100% of the time, though the window is rather small, same with their dash attack

Those can be shieldgrabbed too as long as you don't light shield, right? I usually do it vs. Falco and downthrow -> tech chase or up throw -> dair, depending on what I feel like at the time, but nair OOS might be a good idea if they're at super high %.

Also, I was under the impression that you could shield grab Fox' usmash safely if he hits your shield, however in a recent tourney set he managed to spot dodge it whenever I tried it. Am I simply too slow, is it only if you're really close or is it simply not safe?

 

[Geist]

I'd rather have stayed in my shield than get baited and subsequently Usmashed :X
But yeah, on reaction it's better than UpB in a lot of situations.

ninja'd

 

[Pi]

I'm pretty sure you don't have the frame advantage to shieldgrab fox/falco's fsmash/dash attack unless they do it maybe like...RIGHT on top of your shield and the first hitbox that comes out hits your shield, in which case they might go through your shield unless you (a)sdi your shield to counter that

i'll test about his upsmash/fsmash in a sec

 

[Ørn]

Here's a video example from said tourney set

Looking at it again, I think I was being slightly slow about it, but I'm not sure it looks all that safe. It's the PAL upsmash btw, so I probably have slightly less shieldstun than the American version (though I don't remember how shieldstun works exactly so I might be mistaken about this).

I can imagine there's better way to punish an usmash on shield, though.

 

[Pi]

i know you can WD out and dsmash/dtilt it 100%
but the window is kinda small
and if you mess up shine -> upsmash lol

*frame data*

24 frame advantage on fox upsmash vs. full shield assuming first hitbox hits on first frame, grab is possible
but the farther away the smaller the window for it
and he can't do anything to avoid grab for another 2 frames after the 24, so really it's a 26 frame advantage for a grab (spot dodge/roll's are invulnerable on frame 2)

there is 9 frames of hitlag
and 10 frames of shieldhitstun (in ntsc)
and the hitbox is out on frame 7
so 26 frames to think about what you want to do essentially


19 frame advantage on the Fsmash, assuming he hits it first frame, and you full shield
with him being able to act on the 20th frame, aka shine you
so there's a 1 frame room for error if you're trying to grab him

nair OoS comes out in 8 frames, if you perform it frame perfect 11 frame window for error on the shieldhitstun time, and nair after you jump

still fairly small, but quite a deal larger than shield grabbing his fsmash

now on to dash attack;
looks to be a 27 frame advantage with a first frame hit
down to an 11 frame advantage (i think), with a last frame hit


didn't calculate the weak hits of fsmash/upsmash

 

[Ørn]

That answers my question perfectly. Thanks for the incredibly detailed response!

 

[Pi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onQuqTjFZSc&feature=feedu

first match duck shieldgrabs upsmash & fsmash seemingly before the fox can act

and he did it in winners quarters set

so if you want to shieldgrab, go for it, just be fast

 

[Geist]

Yo, best of luck at pound Jason.
Get dat cash

 

[Pi]

i got this ish son
see you at G2

 

[edgeluca]

Good luck bro
**** dem MMs

 

[AntoPark]

Came here to wish you luck as well. :D
Make your fellow sami proud.

 

[MeijinAkuma]

So I played basically all day to day at a local tournament... and I was hoping to have a bunch of matches to post for critique, but at the end of the day I found out nothing I did was actually saved... So I'm empty handed in the form of videos. D=

 

[Geist]

That's happened to me more than once. For the first 4 years I played this I had some sort of curse, and every time I tried to get something recorded something would go wrong.

 

[edgeluca]

Or maybe no one recorded you cause you suck? lolololololol
JK Geist I <3 u