EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[Pi]

if you have any room to move it's 50/50 (landing a hit)

 

[AntoPark]

On the ground, it's 55:45 in samus' favor. If you're above them, it's probably more like 35:65 in favor of marth. I don't really like how the entire match up's given a percentage. I'd rather give the situations a percentage, you know? D:

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

If you are doing certain situations, you don't need a %, just good, bad, neutral, very good, terrible.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

On the ground, it's 55:45 in samus' favor. If you're above them, it's probably more like 35:65 in favor of marth. I don't really like how the entire match up's given a percentage. I'd rather give the situations a percentage, you know? D:

It's never that simple. How easy is it for Marth to put you in that unfavorable position? Quite easy, as he has very safe tools to do so. (grabs, tilts, aerials) CCing only serves build up damage to eventually get juggled if the Marth never gets into range. Samus typically has to force openings with baits and trades, while Marth can easily create them by force and passive baiting.


Marth has a few "gimmes" that make the match bearable, namely his laggy F-smash, occasional Counter use, and grab attempts. The whole basis of the match is to make a Marth comfortable enough to do those moves by spacing into those ranges, tempting them.

Problem lies in the few Marths that just space with Fairs all day until you're in the air and never use F-Smash until you're airborne or teching. (i.e. HugS vs M2K) Then the match becomes incredibly difficult because every interval is treated as an opportunity to attack, and with perfect spacing Samus can only hope the player messes up somehow.

 

[Pluplue]

esam look what you've done.
@the red sparrow I'm sure you could MAKE it easy for marth to put you in an unfavorable position, but even if you do get above him and get juggled you can make it down if youre smart.
After I get combod into the air by marth I just spam bombs as fast as I can. if they try to hit you out of it, bounce over the other way and they get hit by a bomb. It ALWAYS WORKS unless I (keyword I) mess it up.
and ta daa. im on the ground samuses "55-45 matchup".
And you guys seem to forget it takes twice as much percent for samus to die, so CC works superrrrbly.

 

[Pi]

j/k tipper @ 100 dead

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

And you guys seem to forget it takes twice as much percent for samus to die, so CC works superrrrbly.

CCing means sh** if the Marth spaces properly. CCing D-Tilt and retreating Fairs just rack %s easy.


And I agree, if your read properly you can get down from Uair/Fair spam, but that's the thing, you have to fight for it. You're in an unfavorable position and you position yourself to handle it, that's what learning matchups is all about. Still a ******** position to be in.

 

[Pi]

play marth vs. a samus

it's stupid

once you learn how to handle missiles you're set

the matchup is clearly in his favor

they just need to play it as gay as we do.

 

[Pluplue]

CCing means sh** if the Marth spaces properly. CCing D-Tilt and retreating Fairs just rack %s easy.


And I agree, if your read properly you can get down from Uair/Fair spam, but that's the thing, you have to fight for it. You're in an unfavorable position and you position yourself to handle it, that's what learning matchups is all about. Still a ******** position to be in.

I never said you had to fight for it. I specifically said if YOU mess up then he hits you back in the air.

and dayum u guys are makin it sound like an impossible matchup. quit whinin and figure it out

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

i FEEL like the marth matchup is decent
it's not terrible
but it ain't great either
the tables being turned in a single mistake is a lot of melee
if you think about it like that
the match up really isn't that bad

it's probably easier for us to mess up though than it is for them *shrug*
i'm just gonna keep playin like i do
folllow advice
idgaf about your guys' negativity or "logic"

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

I never said you had to fight for it. I specifically said if YOU mess up then he hits you back in the air.

and dayum u guys are makin it sound like an impossible matchup. quit whinin and figure it out

Oh I'm not whining. Like I said before, I don't have a major problem with the matchup. Just saying on technical front it's heavily against Samus, it's more about how one treats the matchup and who you face.

 

[AntoPark]

I guess technically if we make a mistake it sucks, but our character's homosity makes it so that the match up's pretty tolerable.

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

wtf is homosity

i even looked it up and nothing (except urban dictionary)

 

[Rat]

u guys got any idea for how to edgeguard marth?

Utilt doesn't seem that good.
Bombing has had some mild success.
Lazy boy or walk off nair is nice is they don't have a dj but they can space around it.

need some new ideas.

 

[zDuck]

do you really need anything other than utilt? it works as long as you don't mess up

 

[Rat]

I've never had much luck with Utilt. Like I have to perfect with it.
If I space it to cover the sweet spot, they can go wide. If I space to cover the wide option then they can hit you with UpB. I feel like there has to be something samus can do that marth just can't get around. (I've tried light shield facing the edge then Nair when he hits your shield, lol. It works but it's super hard to do.)

guess I need to know how do you space the utilt? Do you watch where you think i'll upB and space out the upward slash?


edit: Also duck, did pretty good at our local chicago tourney today. Got 3rd. Only beat kelly on Brinstar lol. Shiek is terrible at the stage. My set with tink was also super close =(. I'll get 'em next time.

I'm glad your not the only midwest samus placing in the money. =P

 

[Geist]

Excluding walk off nair, an angled fsmash works surprisingly well, especially if you don't have much luck with tilts. Iirc it won't hit if he perfectly sweetspots, but you can always throw their spacing off by dropping a bomb.

 

[AntoPark]

wtf is homosity

i even looked it up and nothing (except urban dictionary)

Use that imagination, alfredooo

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

i have none

i am a cold calculating machine

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

do you really need anything other than utilt? it works as long as you don't mess up

Naw Up-Tilt isn't a cure-all. Against certain characters like Ganon, even if spaced at the very tip if the Ganon techs and UP+Bs again you will get hit.

Sometimes DF Tilt is a better tool IMO.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

He is talking about marth, so ganon is irrelevant.

But yeah, f-tilt is amazing if you angle it down.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I'm glad your not the only midwest samus placing in the money. =P

I'd like to believe that I count as a midwest Samus during those times when I am in the midwest (aka when I go north more than 50 miles).
Confirm/Deny?

 

[Rat]

Confirm: <3

Deny: I'm not sure you really play Samus as much as you do whatever the hell you want Jack.

edit: come to chicagooo!

 

[Pi]

dsmash to edgeguard marths
laugh as they tech jump and die

jajaja

 

[zDuck]

guess I need to know how do you space the utilt? Do you watch where you think i'll upB and space out the upward slash?


edit: Also duck, did pretty good at our local chicago tourney today. Got 3rd. Only beat kelly on Brinstar lol. Shiek is terrible at the stage. My set with tink was also super close =(. I'll get 'em next time.

I'm glad your not the only midwest samus placing in the money. =P

well as far as utilt goes, i sorta just feel it >.> lol, i don't really think about it

and yay :D good job, you're talking about smashing grounds right? MI would've gone if it weren't for finals T.T i'm currently "studying". Every time I play tink it gets closer and closer, so hopefully we can both beat his marth soon

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

OK

how do you guys practice tech skill

too many times the reason i get hit is because of my ****ty tech skill

i was gonna practice with computers because that's what i always do...but i figured i should ask you guys

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

That Uair ledgehop cancel technique, how low do you have to ledge hop to get only the initial frames of the Uair to start? I've been practicing it and I can't seem to get the range or timing down.


Uair canceling onto a platform is a cakewalk though. (Though I still prefer neutral waveland.)

 

[AntoPark]

Just use fox for a while

 

[Pi]

That Uair ledgehop cancel technique, how low do you have to ledge hop to get only the initial frames of the Uair to start? I've been practicing it and I can't seem to get the range or timing down.


Uair canceling onto a platform is a cakewalk though. (Though I still prefer neutral waveland.)

it's pretty low, done right you have a 11 frames of incibility to work with, out of the 29 total after grabbing the ledge, and not being able to release for 6 frames

 

[Pi]

i wanna add a poll to this thread
what should it be

 

[edgeluca]

i wanna add a poll to this thread
what should it be

Which matchup do you have the most trouble with?
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Sheik
Marth
Peach
Falcon
Other

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

it's pretty low, done right you have a 11 frames of incibility to work with, out of the 29 total after grabbing the ledge, and not being able to release for 6 frames

So are you implying that it's pretty much useless?

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I'm sure you could find uses for it, but I always end up doing it on accident... I'll try to uair from the ledge, and then just snap to it and get hit.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

IHSB, that happens to me all the time...

 

[Pi]

So are you implying that it's pretty much useless?

what? no

if you do it frame perfect you have 11 frames of invincibility that you can act in

take away some frames for human error and you can reasonable get a shield, jab, or even dsmash/dtilt out while invincible



there's a two frame window afaik to actually get it to interrupt too,

it's useful, and not hard to get consistent with

Which matchup do you have the most trouble with?
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Sheik
Marth
Peach
Falcon
Other

i think that changes too much tbh

use to be gdorf for me
then jiggs
then marth
now sheik

 

[Rat]

That Uair ledgehop cancel technique, how low do you have to ledge hop to get only the initial frames of the Uair to start? I've been practicing it and I can't seem to get the range or timing down.


Uair canceling onto a platform is a cakewalk though. (Though I still prefer neutral waveland.)

I had to practice it AR for awhile before I got the timing.

Basically it has nothing to do with how low you jump. You can jump at the first possible frame.

All it is, is basically timing with the Uair. Make sure you'rer pressing into the stage too. It can be done on battlefield you just need to press in at the right moment.

Just keep trying different timings with the uair.
I would suggest doing late (so the Uair comes out over the stage.).
Then doing it earlier each time.



Also the max number of invincibility frames is 14, not 11 =P. You can do an invincible fsmash out of it =D. (I just got *****!! )

 

[Pi]

I had to practice it AR for awhile before I got the timing.

Basically it has nothing to do with how low you jump. You can jump at the first possible frame.

All it is, is basically timing with the Uair. Make sure you'rer pressing into the stage too. It can be done on battlefield you just need to press in at the right moment.

Just keep trying different timings with the uair.
I would suggest doing late (so the Uair comes out over the stage.).
Then doing it earlier each time.



Also the max number of invincibility frames is 14, not 11 =P. You can do an invincible fsmash out of it =D. (you just got out nerded son! )

4 frames of landing lag are you factoring that in?

Some of you may know this, I know someone posted the frame data a while ago, but I couldn't find it and told rohins I would find out so;

Yea, that just happened.

This is the exact process in frames, that I used on Dolphin
I was holding toward the stage every frame I could after release. You are invulnerable for all of these frames.

Grab Ledge
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Release Ledge
DJ
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Upair
-
-
Land
-
-
-
-Free to move on this frame
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

11 frames of totally exploitable invulnerability.


Also frame perfect regrabs have 7 frame of vulnerability.
You DJ on the 9th frame after releasing.

 

[Pluplue]

holy **** samus is broken

 

[Rat]

aw **** I got *****. My brain said that Fsmash was 14 frames not 10. I suck.

Get ***** me.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

How much invincibility can be gotten from a frame perfect waveland?

Peach is by far my worst matchup, what a ***** to deal with. Next up is Falco on FD. That matchup (on FD) is absolute bullsh** if the Falco is actually good.

I actually like the Sheik matchup for the most part, played so many Sheiks (2 of my friends mained her) in my heyday that my reactions and spacing against them are muscle memory.