EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[[FBC] ESAM]

Not against us...what is he gonna do? Run off and fair us. Move backwards a little with bombs. He can't go that low or he will die. We have grapple lol.

 

[Geist]

...
*shifts uncomfortably*

So what can we do if he holds the ledge? Dair out-prioritizes Screw attack, Bair beats bombs and attacks, and both moves beat grapple at different times.
And everything he has beats not sweetspotting...

 

[Pi]

it's really hard to get back onto the stage (from the ledge) if the marth doesn't get greedy and throw out Fsmash/try to dair

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

If he holds the ledge rising grapple and hit him off. I have never met a Marth that could time his get off to not get hit and then bair me off, not even M2K.

If you are hit high you could always just bomb slowly to high and then come down.

 

[Violence]

ESAM... I get the feeling you haven't played enough of this matchup against competent Marths. I don't think I'm a better player than you are, but at the least, I think I've played better Marths.

Well F-tilt is faster than all of his ground moves. So you can pressure him with f-tilt spacing.

Ftilt loses on the ground unless you bait something. It straight up loses to Marth's Ftilt, spaced fair, and fsmash.

you can run in uair

If he fairs(Marths do this a lot because it's not easily punishable), and you run in for something, the second fair will hit you first.(assuming the Marth you're playing can shdfair)

At low %s you both hit each other out of your attacks, so don't pretend like his punishes at low %s are so much better...they aren't.

The problem is how much more range Marth has over Samus, and how much more disjointed Marth's attacks are. I agree that trading hits with Marth is usually a win, but you shouldn't ever be able to trade with Marth's fair.

On the subject of low % punishes... have you ever been hit by a Marth fair train? It's a free 50% if you aren't absolutely on point with your spacing.

Also ,the run up shield loses to grab or u-tilt. U-tilt is great shield pressure. U-tilt to f-tilt, u-tilt to d-tilt. U-tilt to u-tilt. Shield stun is amazing in this game.

Run in->shield does not lose to Samus's standing grab or utilt, the Marth has many frames to react to the motion and fair ooS, which has some significant frame advantage.

If marth is SHFFLing fairs....platform missile camp him. One will get in eventually

This may be some evidence of your inexperience, but... platform missile camping doesn't work on Marth. shdfair beats it easily, and he approaches while doing it.

Marth isn't the best punisher...

One of the reasons Marth is a bad matchup for Samus is because Marth can combo Samus, which is a very difficult thing for most characters. He is one of the best punishers.

Not against us...what is he gonna do? Run off and fair us. Move backwards a little with bombs. He can't go that low or he will die. We have grapple lol.

Yeaaaah... I think you need a bit more experience with the matchup. Marth never runs off to fair us, he grabs the ledge to hit us with an invincible bair when we up B. We have options, yes, but it's definitely not as easy as you put it. Marth can hit us out of grapple if we space the grapple at the very longest distance.

If he holds the ledge rising grapple and hit him off. I have never met a Marth that could time his get off to not get hit and then bair me off, not even M2K.

I did that to Phil once. The problem with that is that Samus's body comes up before the grapple hits them, and they just ledgehop bair back onto the stage. Sure, it might hit them the first time, but bair is just more disjointed than grapple, and you'll probably get hit. Once Samus's recovery gets predictable, Marth just ***** it.



All in all, despite your success, I have to inform you that a lot of the stuff you're using doesn't work 100% of the time. While they do work sometimes, I'd like to think of the Marth Samus matchup as a mixup game, where you want to land that first hit, and followup for lots of punishment, so you can edgeguard Marth and kill him as quickly as possible.

Defensewise, Marth can't kill you if he can't tipper fsmash you and can't edgeguad you. Being on point with spacing and recovery can maximize your living chances. If you live to over 200%(it happens), Marth can really start to get frustrated and try forcing fsmashes that you can WD ooS and punish. I usually like WD ooS dtilt fair, to try and build lots of damage.



Anyways, I'm probably wrong about some stuff, so whoever's better than me, which is pretty much everyone, can correct me on it.

 

[Geist]

If he holds the ledge rising grapple and hit him off. I have never met a Marth that could time his get off to not get hit and then bair me off, not even M2K.

Trust me, if you're in grapple range on any stage, Marth is able to Bair you and recover.
He can also go surprisingly low. If the Marth is gay and patient enough to do this, it makes is extremely, extremely hard to get back on the stage.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Lol I'll keep doing what I do and winning matches. You guys can figure it out yourself if you don't wanna listen

 

[Pluplue]

I agree with esam on dis one. all marths got on samus is combos. samus has the advantage on the ground though

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

OBVIOUSLY PLUP WE ARE INFERIOR PLAYERS WITH SUB-PAR PRACTICE MATES AND WE CANNOT COMPARE TO THESE PEOPLE ASKING FOR HELP IN THE MATCH-UP!!

Makes perfect sense.

Also, violence, when you become a better player and you are par on the mind-set of your opponent, you are able to do a thing called mindgame them. Who the hell would EVER guess a samus would randomly grab as marth is approaching? OK, so you do it once, they expect it, they jump fair, but before they jumped you WD forward shielded, and you up-b them. SO now they have that mix-up, but now they have to worry about us run jump nairing.

No option is 100% safe all the time.

 

[Pluplue]

that is tru but DASH ATTACK IS SAFE 95% OF THE TIME

 

[Pi]

marth wins in theory

but you can make the match all guessing

i haven't faced a problem getting to the edge (even m2k never gimped me)

the only problem i face is getting back onto the stage, unless like i said the marth gets greedy

my buddy Zer0 when he's playing patient/smart, and m2k, both used safe quick moves (dtilt/jab) to thwart any attempt at getting back onto the stage


i firmly believe that a marth can cover every option you have from the ledge, safely. except for invincible aerial intrupt/waveland into shield, assuming you shield the hit and then do something safe from your shield?

get up normally; dtilt/jab/grab & forwardthrow
fair; dtilt/jab/shield & UB/shieldgrab
roll; grab backthrow/uptilt
jump...lol don't do that
waveland; dtilt/jab/grab (unless you do it within the 4 frame window to be invincible to shield)

as far as on the stage

you have just as good a chance of landing a ftilt/dash attack/grab as the marth has of landing anything other than a dtilt (i think this is his safest approach), but that doesn't follow up into anything and you can CC it unless it's tipper

if you land the right move your follow up can be just as devistating

 

[AntoPark]

OBVIOUSLY PLUP WE ARE INFERIOR PLAYERS WITH SUB-PAR PRACTICE MATES AND WE CANNOT COMPARE TO THESE PEOPLE ASKING FOR HELP IN THE MATCH-UP!!

Makes perfect sense.

Also, violence, when you become a better player and you are par on the mind-set of your opponent, you are able to do a thing called mindgame them. Who the hell would EVER guess a samus would randomly grab as marth is approaching? OK, so you do it once, they expect it, they jump fair, but before they jumped you WD forward shielded, and you up-b them. SO now they have that mix-up, but now they have to worry about us run jump nairing.

No option is 100% safe all the time.

I can't tell if you're trolling..LOL.

 

[Pluplue]

It's just a matchup me n esam have learned... I know marth has the advantage "IN THEORY", but thats why he was just trying to help

 

[Violence]

With all due respect, ESAM, when you talk about a Marth edgeguarding you by running off and fairing, and recovering with rising grapple, I tend to think that you don't really know the matchup all that well.

Could you show me some vids of you vs a Marth? Maybe it would help us understand what you're saying.

 

[edgeluca]

This thread has gotten too serious.
So, I have a question for all sammy mains
What is your favorite flavor of pie?

 

[Geist]

That depends of course whether there's whipped cream involved or not. Everyone knows that whipped cream and blueberries creates a unique synergy of flavour completely different to blueberries by itself.

Also do pie flavours that involve combinations of various berries, like humble or boisonberry count? And what about pseudopies like key lime pie?

...I'm sorry am I taking this too seriously too?

 

[Corrupt Wolf]

This thread has gotten too serious.
So, I have a question for all sammy mains
What is your favorite flavor of pie?

Pumpkin. That is all.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I don't like pie...

Also, I don't have recent vids against Marth....or any vids of marth. I haven't played melee seriously in a LONG while, and before that recording wasn't exactly common in Florida aside from phanna.

 

[Geist]

How do you not like pie
It's pretty much any food you like surrounded by sugary, buttery crust.
How do you not like that
I DON'T EVEN KNOW ANYTHING ANYMORE
MY ENTIRE WORLD IS COLLAPSING INTO ITSELF
I'VE BEEN THRUST INTO A UNIVERSE WHERE MARTH BECOMES AN EVEN MATCHUP AND PIE IS NOT ENJOYED BY ALL
WHAT IS GOING ON

 

[Pluplue]

no he has to be trollin PIE IS THE BEST THING IN THE ENTIRE WORLD

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Well I don't like Strawberries (They make me vomit), blueberries are OK, pumpkin is OK, apple pie sucks (Doesn't taste like apples), and...yeah.

 

[Geist]

*****'s crazy
There's a pie out there for everyone. Find yours and find eternal happiness.

 

[edgeluca]

If anyone is wondering, my favorite pie is CHERRY!

 

[Geist]

She's my cherry pie
Cool drink of water such a sweet surprise
Taste so good make a grown man cry
Sweet cherry pie, yeah

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I like Hershey's Sundae Pie :3

 

[Pluplue]

that sounds good but apple and strawberry pies are the best.

 

[edgeluca]

Samus is my cherry pie.
Yes I know what it means

 

[Geist]

Thank you for explaining my joke
That color is so hard to read on my phone lol

 

[edgeluca]

Get ***** son
Cherry pie is delicious though.

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

Does cheesecake count as pie?

it has a crust!

 

[Pi]

you have a crust

 

[AntoPark]

Pizza pies are pretty ****.

 

[edgeluca]

you have a crust

Your mom has a crust

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

burrrrrrrrrrrrn

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

Reading the last 2 pages I think I finally understand the "lost in translation" feeling between those who make reasonable logical analysis of matchups and those players who are simply smarter than the "average bear."

Marth vs Samus is a ridiculous matchup on a technical front, yet I've met only a very few Marths that I had trouble with, mainly because I can put myself in enough advantageous positions to score a win.

I don't necessarily agree with Plup's and ESAM's analysis of the matchup but watching the way they play their matchups against really good Marth's like Skrach or Dark Sonic I notice that simply make better reads. Better Reads > Bad Matchups

Por ejemplo:

Samus's F-tilt can get punished and is generally unsafe against any Marth that knows the matchup, both players [ESAM/Plup] simply manage to do it at a time where trading will be worth it or when they out-read/anticipate the opponent just a *little* bit faster. By reading better they never really have to contend with the same problems other Samus's encounter, same with edgeguards. Same goes for Samus's grapple which is very risky to do, but good Samuses will use it even at high % when they feel secure that it will work, even though missing will = death.

Conversely, if they do have situations where they can't handle, they simple take better advantages of the situations they can handle to the fullest extent. (i.e., predicting a forward smash and countering into an essential edgeguard kill).


HOWEVER, hypothetically, if they were playing their doppleganger who were using Marth they would ****... um... themselves (lol) because they would be playing someone who possesses and equal knowledge of what they were looking for in a Marth player.


When I play a rookie Marth for example, I do risky and borderline stupid stuff simply because I can read them easily, same with other matchups where playing defensive would be the wisest option.


tl:dr Version:

When you're a smarter player, your level of analysis become a lot less left brained (logical, what-counters-what, risk-reward) and a lot more right brained (creative, emphatic, intuitive).

Take Mango for example. He breaks all these "rules" in the context of playing rudimentary characters like Marth: super-agrro or Sheik: super-WTF? but still nets his wins convincingly over seasoned vets simply because he reads them like a book. Penultimate players like M2K might possess similar traits but their mindsets are more in the league of what each character is technically capable of rather than what their opponents are really thinking.

 

[Geist]

I can totally agree with you.
Matchups are always dependent on the amount of available options you have, but options are never linear and straight forward. But that being said, I don't believe that analyzing a matchup should involve the actual players, eg, player intelligence shouldn't influence results. A smart player may not have trouble playing with marth when using their viable options properly, but it isn't fair to assess one side without considering the other.
For example, the Marths that I play are regularily at a higher level than I am, and as such can use said options better than I can. Even without this bias I can still see that it isn't an impossible matchup, but it still isn't 50/50 lol

Oh man that post was WAY too serious.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

you have a crust

Your mom has a crust

burrrrrrrrrrrrn

OH GOD GUYS I SAW THE SMOKE FROM THE TOPIC LIST IS EVERYONE OKAY

HERE I BROUGHT SOME BURN HEAL:

 

[Pi]

yea there's no way it's 50/50

granted you can make the first hit land 50/50
but marth's hits generally land in better followups, or just put you in a disadvantageous situation (above him)

 

[Geist]

I was grabbed out of my screw attack once
True story

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

yea there's no way it's 50/50

granted you can make the first hit land 50/50
but marth's hits generally land in better followups, or just put you in a disadvantageous situation (above him)

lol 50/50 if the Marth player has a broken C-stick or something...


To put it as loosely as possible, Marth has the ability to put Samus in a lot more disadvantageous positions than Samus can, and has better means to do that safely.

That's all that needs to be said.