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EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)
- Thread starter Pi
- Start date
Pi
Smash Hero
Bomb
Total: 53
Bomb appears: 10
Bomb exists: 73 frames, then boom
Bomb does damage for 11 frames
Cancel by crouching: 46>
Explosion shield stun: 7
Bomb bounces off shield stun: 6
--Bombjumping--
Total: 53
Completely interruptible: frame 2
where frame 1 is the explosion
You've got a decent window there to get away 5 frames to perform an action
And the reason I say it's a scrub tactic is because, and your examples show this, IC's who are used to taking stocks off from wobbling will never EVER EVER EVER EVER -!EVER!- be #1 (on the world scale).
By all means wobble, I don't give a ****, but wobbling should be the furthest thing from your mind because in reality your attention is going to NEED to be focused on a **** ton of more things than getting a sync'd grab. You give up way too many opportunities if you do that.
Total: 53
Bomb appears: 10
Bomb exists: 73 frames, then boom
Bomb does damage for 11 frames
Cancel by crouching: 46>
Explosion shield stun: 7
Bomb bounces off shield stun: 6
--Bombjumping--
Total: 53
Completely interruptible: frame 2
where frame 1 is the explosion
You've got a decent window there to get away 5 frames to perform an action
Statements like that are hardly the reason for ignorant assumptions about SSBM. I assure you nobody who has played melee at a competitive level will ever refute the depth it has, and as far as I'm concerned if you're drawing conclusions from a first glance, or what you've 'heard', you aren't to be taken seriously any ways. So **** the 'other gaming communities' you speak of.
And the reason I say it's a scrub tactic is because, and your examples show this, IC's who are used to taking stocks off from wobbling will never EVER EVER EVER EVER -!EVER!- be #1 (on the world scale).
By all means wobble, I don't give a ****, but wobbling should be the furthest thing from your mind because in reality your attention is going to NEED to be focused on a **** ton of more things than getting a sync'd grab. You give up way too many opportunities if you do that.
Pluplue
Smash Ace
Yes I agree you get less lag than they do, but samus being above them is always a bad thing
Pi
Smash Hero
Pretty much
Wavelanding behind them from the bomb might work.
Geist
Smash Master
Wavelanding might be hard if you're bombing their shield from a failed arial attempt. I'd make sure I could dj and waveland on a platform.
When I'm in that situation I usually just ff waveland away.
When I'm in that situation I usually just ff waveland away.
Silent Wolf
...
They don't even say Melee is a bad game. They have very little respect for the community as a whole. And the whole issue is that you aren't the only person making such sweeping statements about people who use legitimate character mechanics.
They also don't appreciate the whole, "**** the other gaming communities," outlook, but that's neither here nor there.
And the reason you're wrong is that scrub tactics are tactics that aren't effective at a high level but are nevertheless used at low levels by players who think they're good but aren't. Wobbling is not such a tactic, because it actually is effective at high levels. In other communities, no one would ever say "he only wins because of wobbling." They'd probably say, "he gets a lot of sync'd grabs, so either he's a savant, or his opponents suck. Judging by the way they turtle in their shields, they probably suck." They wouldn't insult the person who's wobbling just because they apparently rely on it.
AntoPark
Smash Lord
Because I brought up the wobbling topic, I'll bring down the topic; or at least try to, ahah. I've talked to Zhu about wobbling for a good little while and I've concluded that wobbling isn't broken enough for a ban, but I also think that it's a shortcut that most ICs will use. In the big picture, we're playing melee, right? Why do we have tournaments? In the ABCs of Tournament Hosting thread it says that tournaments exist so we can have fun! I don't know how fun it is for the IC user and I've never been wobbled myself, but I know some people that really do not appreciate wobbling. I can understand that and I'm sure you can too, Phoot. I don't think anyone learns anything from wobbling either. Good ICs like Fly, Wobbles, Azn Lep, UI, and etc probably don't even NEED to wobble when they get a grab to achieve the 0-death punish anyway. I don't think ICs are a bad enough character to need wobbling to win, either. I mean, look at us, we're samus players, ahah. ICs can just do their hand off, sync'd grabs for the same thing with the exception of a less bored crowd and both players will be satisfied.
I'm not involved with any other gaming communities but does it matter if street fighter players or brawl players look down on us? I mean, it's not like they'd suddenly pick up melee in the first place. Kniht has the right idea about not caring about the other gaming communities. Albeit, it's a little bit of a harsh way to put it. But frankly, we shouldn't care about the other communities. And a good community wouldn't judge an ENTIRE other gaming community solely based on observations. Of the people that're looking down on us, how many of them have actually played Melee to the level that we play it? How many of them have gotten to know all the different kinds of people that play this game? I've met a wide spectrum of players, Phoot.
I'm not involved with any other gaming communities but does it matter if street fighter players or brawl players look down on us? I mean, it's not like they'd suddenly pick up melee in the first place. Kniht has the right idea about not caring about the other gaming communities. Albeit, it's a little bit of a harsh way to put it. But frankly, we shouldn't care about the other communities. And a good community wouldn't judge an ENTIRE other gaming community solely based on observations. Of the people that're looking down on us, how many of them have actually played Melee to the level that we play it? How many of them have gotten to know all the different kinds of people that play this game? I've met a wide spectrum of players, Phoot.
edgeluca
Smash Lord
GGs Silent Wolf, I'm the Samus you played in winner's bracket. Thx for the advice, and it was fun playing you
Geist
Smash Master
I'm trying to think of something legitimate to say about wobbling, but I don't think I care enough.
:D
A Pimp Named Slickback
Smash Lord
This is a pretty dumb statement.
You're claiming that IC players who wobble will never be #1 in the world.
An IC player will never be #1 in the world because they play ICE CLIMBERS, a **** character compared with the top tier. It's not because they wobble or because they can wobble. In my opinion, the ability to wobble and successfully land sync'd grabs to wobble is a skill in itself and makes you a better player. Fly, Wobbles, and Chu are amazing players regardless and to claim that their skill is inflated due to wobbling is inane and ignorant.
Your second point is obvious. Like all things in smash, if you try too hard or focus on getting a particular move in, you will fail and get read like an open book. You should focus on getting hits in, avoiding your opponent, putting yourself in good positions like normal games, and when the opportunity arises, you land that sync'd grab and wobble. Landing sync'd grabs is in no way a scrub tactic and to capitalize fully on your opponent's mistakes is the epitome of non-scrubbish play.
You know what is a scrub tactic though? Banning **** because a bunch of whiners think it's overpowered when they just suck and can't avoid it.
also, **** that video was hot.
resTy
Smash Champion
Haven't seen that much random Samus techskill since Phanna.
I like it :')
Also, Samus vs. Campy Falco.
I forgot how to do it.
edgeluca
Smash Lord
Powershield the lazers and ftilt that ***** in the face
Geist
Smash Master
I usually have trouble with Falco players that lie somewhere in the middle. Like the ones that space lasers just out of reach, so PSing is too risky and wd away gets you **** combo'd.
I started jabbing between lasers as a temporary solution, but I need something more effective.
I started jabbing between lasers as a temporary solution, but I need something more effective.
Dynamism?
Smash Champion
I always had trouble with Falcon but I think I figured it out yesterday.
Had a couple MMs and lots of friendlies. Got slaughtered at first but won multiple matches consecutively against those who slaughtered me to finish the night.
Pretty much I learned to not commit to too much when they're dashing in my face without moving myself. Got kneed too much at first, then I was ****** them every time they tried to knee me. <3
I lost to bobaks ICs from wobbling at my first international tourney. He 3 stocked me the first match. The second match he almost did but I came back and it came to last hit last stock. After that, I multi stocked him in multiple friendlies with EXTREME ease.
I learned my lesson. Wobbling if ****ing boring and mindless.
But at the same time, I was just falling into it (never played against an ICs before that day).
So when you figure out how to get around it and the person who needs it can't do much otherwise, wobbling isn't even a minor concern, let alone game changing. Good players won't bother with it even when they get the chance. They know better, as in they know that it won't make them any better.
I like Falcos, they don't have an N to make Falcon. But now I don't mind Ns with Falcos either. :D
Had a couple MMs and lots of friendlies. Got slaughtered at first but won multiple matches consecutively against those who slaughtered me to finish the night.
Pretty much I learned to not commit to too much when they're dashing in my face without moving myself. Got kneed too much at first, then I was ****** them every time they tried to knee me. <3
I lost to bobaks ICs from wobbling at my first international tourney. He 3 stocked me the first match. The second match he almost did but I came back and it came to last hit last stock. After that, I multi stocked him in multiple friendlies with EXTREME ease.
I learned my lesson. Wobbling if ****ing boring and mindless.
But at the same time, I was just falling into it (never played against an ICs before that day).
So when you figure out how to get around it and the person who needs it can't do much otherwise, wobbling isn't even a minor concern, let alone game changing. Good players won't bother with it even when they get the chance. They know better, as in they know that it won't make them any better.
I like Falcos, they don't have an N to make Falcon. But now I don't mind Ns with Falcos either. :D
It's kinda unbelievable how some people don't believe it's that easy for Samus...
It kind of does matter to the people who are involved in other communities. It kind of stings, for me, when I'm browsing dustloop, and someone takes an obligatory dig at the smash community (a community I feel a strong bond with) as a matter of course. You've asked me to try and understand your take from an emotional perspective (you needn't ask, I find it as boring and frustrating as the next person, I just won't insult anyone who uses it). Now try and see things from the perspective of the person who tries to be involved in two communities between whom there is such hostility.
resTy
Smash Champion
I've lost my ability to powershield things.
It will happen often, but not when I want it to.
At that point, Falco is already ****** my shield with spacing of the gods.
It's not like anybody is consistent with it anyways though
EDIT: Samus Boards drama makes me sad.
STOP IT! JUST STOP IT!
It will happen often, but not when I want it to.
At that point, Falco is already ****** my shield with spacing of the gods.
It's not like anybody is consistent with it anyways though
EDIT: Samus Boards drama makes me sad.
STOP IT! JUST STOP IT!
Geist
Smash Master
Smashboards drama is the best drama.
Also, I'm hearing a lot of people (most of them higher level players) say that powershielding is super overrated for stopping Falco lasers. And I'm starting to agree wholeheartedly. It's really difficult to execute consistantly, unless they're from a distance, which PSing becomes useless anyways. If they're up close PSing becomes even more difficult AND it's possible for the Falco to space beforehand if they predict you'll attempt them.
Also, I'm hearing a lot of people (most of them higher level players) say that powershielding is super overrated for stopping Falco lasers. And I'm starting to agree wholeheartedly. It's really difficult to execute consistantly, unless they're from a distance, which PSing becomes useless anyways. If they're up close PSing becomes even more difficult AND it's possible for the Falco to space beforehand if they predict you'll attempt them.
Pi
Smash Hero
My statement was directed solely at the other gaming communities you were referring to.
If people can't recognize that that smash was first and foremost a party game and that the community needed to tweak it a bit for it to be a legitimate fighting game then idk what to say, it seems like they are too concerned with the way they do things to allow for any wiggle room. You can't defend a community who does the same thing they look down on the smash community for doing.
And @ the bolded part that is exactly what I classify wobbling as.
I've already said wobbling doesn't warrant a ban, stop bringing that **** up, it's a scrub tactic why should we ban it when it only hinders the IC mains who use it.
And don't give me that **** about IC's being a **** character and that's the reason they'll never win.
Lol@skill surrounding wobbling
You feel good taking a stock off for 1 mispaced move?
Gtfo scrub.
It varies from day to day but my PS consistency (regardless of distance of the falco) hovers around 50/60%.
And in that matchup and any matchup, any damage you can negate (and in this case opening you can make) helps greatly. Especially when falco does at like 100%.
PS->dash attack/grab/any combo starter not only gives the falco %, but could also knock him off the stage into an edgeguard, or at the very least makes him think twice about lasering.
Sexy sexy stuff
THE RED SPARROW
Smash Lord
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znP9gdAq9Lc
^ Darrell is quickly rising to be one of my favorite Samus players. His spacing is just unreal. I also notice how he refrains from using F-Tilt in this matchup, because he knows it's unsafe.
I'm "Wowed"
^ Darrell is quickly rising to be one of my favorite Samus players. His spacing is just unreal. I also notice how he refrains from using F-Tilt in this matchup, because he knows it's unsafe.
I'm "Wowed"
Geist
Smash Master
Oh, don't get me wrong, PSing Falco's lasers are definitely effective.
It's just not the 'holy grail' that most people make it sound. Falco will still **** you if your spacing, timing, move choice etc, is off.
I think the most important thing against Falco is your edgeguarding game, which also happens to be my worst aspect.
resTy
Smash Champion
Wait, "Ftilt" and "it's unsafe" in the same sentence?
Does not compute!
Does not compute!
AntoPark
Smash Lord
It does when you add in 'against marth' :[
Pi
Smash Hero
Yea.
Marth can shield the ftilt & fair you before you can recover.
& dude...watching that video is eerie, it looks exactly the direction I'm taking my samus vs. marth lol
it's not my favorite playstyle but it's the safest one I've found so far
man even my habits and ****, wavedash behind fsmash that gets shielded still lol
marths aren't forced to spot dodge in this matchup, grabs are very important, i would reccomend grabbing any time a smash isn't guaranteed
A Pimp Named Slickback
Smash Lord
looooooooooool the man who gets mad after he gets wobbled comes back and calls me a scrub because he think wobbling is overpowered? it's not. don't get grabbed scrub.
And you're really going to try and tell me that ICs can even compare to god characters like sheik, fox, and falco? don't make me laugh.
And you're really going to try and tell me that ICs can even compare to god characters like sheik, fox, and falco? don't make me laugh.
Geist
Smash Master
Player > Character :/
You play Samus you should know this.
resTy
Smash Champion
ihavespaceblondes
Smash Master
TheLifeRuiner
Smash Lord
Dynamism?
Smash Champion
I've lost my ability to powershield things.
It will happen often, but not when I want it to.
At that point, Falco is already ****** my shield with spacing of the gods.
It's not like anybody is consistent with it anyways though
EDIT: Samus Boards drama makes me sad.
STOP IT! JUST STOP IT!
Ever heard of Diakonos?
Tru Fax
Geist
Smash Master
resTy
Smash Champion
Whose Diakonos?
THE RED SPARROW
Smash Lord
Playing your friend/acquaintance Dark Sonic and other technical Marth mains has taught me a few things. For one, grabs are only golden when you give the illusion of frustration/aggression- making them ready to do their stupid little shield grabs
. If you're playing with composure or defensive then Marths will just do jump back Fair and SHFFL Nair all day, making a grab attempt too risky. Also, Dashing JC Grapple will throw off their dodge timing.
Secondly, Marth is gay, really really gay.
edgeluca
Smash Lord
Diakonos is the best player in BC who mains Marth. MAD consistent at power shielding.
Geist
Smash Master
Ah I've only seen vids of his Falco.
And people were hyping Falco dittos between him and Mango at Apex.
And Mango was like "aw hell naw"
And people were hyping Falco dittos between him and Mango at Apex.
And Mango was like "aw hell naw"
Pi
Smash Hero
Looooooooooooool the man who assumes **** and lacks basic reading comprehension skills
I've never not once in all my 'wobbling is gay/scrub/stupid' posts complained about being wobbled. You know why? Cause I play ****ing SAMUS, IF I WANTED TO I'D PRESS DOWN B THE WHOLE GAME AND WIN
The only argument I've ever made about wobbling is that it's a ****ing scrub tactic that only works if the other player doesn't play gay/patient enough.
Idk how many times I've professed not to give a **** if the tactic is banned, wanna know why? Cause I know how to ****ing not get grabbed, it's called playing gay and it's not fun for anyone, and with that being the case i have no respect for any IC main who deems it necessary to reduce the match to a gayfest where no one is having fun and the 8min timer might very well play a factor in determining the winner.
In most of my marth experience, they enjoy shielding too much because they get a guaranteed hit/combo if you attack it with anything other than a spaced jab.
Atm I'm pretty much just staying grounded as much as I can and getting missiles off as much as I can. I pay attention to how they are dealing with the missiles and approaching at the same time. Well spaced missiles can tell you a lot about your opponents, and people don't usually spot dodge them which I think might inadvertently take them out of the spot dodging habit.
After I've attained some knowledge about my opponent I usually approach one of these ways;
Dash attack if I think he won't shield
Wavedash ftilt if I'm still not quite sure if he'll shield
Follow a missile up with something
Or if he's staying grounded, I might approach from the air with a nair spaced out of grab range, or behind them.
Also something I've noticed about ganons in particular, but also others, is that people like to jump OoS if you land behind them. Often times I'll throw out a move, land behind someone, then quickly SH bair. I've had decent success for a tactic based around guessing, and don't often get punished.
Of course there are a **** ton of more factors to consider, but if you can keep the marth grounded you can break it down to two approaches; dash attack / grab which cover a lot of options
THE RED SPARROW
Smash Lord
Ganon's and Falcon's generally Bair OOS when you're behind them, and they will continue until they get a hit or you do something drastic.
Against Falcon I can usually handle the pressure by Screw Attacking at the precise time. Ganon's Bair has disgusting priority which will make you trade (badly) at best so the only solution I have in those situations is to CC and WD back the hit and prepare to crouch tech if I'm at a high %.
Against Falcon I can usually handle the pressure by Screw Attacking at the precise time. Ganon's Bair has disgusting priority which will make you trade (badly) at best so the only solution I have in those situations is to CC and WD back the hit and prepare to crouch tech if I'm at a high %.
edgeluca
Smash Lord
I think you might be thinking of blunted_object10
I've never seen diakonos play falco.