EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

What do you guys think of Smash 4? I played some last night.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

also dat 5th place

YEAHHH BOIII

 

[ThePrime]

Paragon was quite the tournament !

 

[Litt]

What do you guys think of Smash 4? I played some last night.

Feel like it is a mix of super smash flash 2 vs Brawl vs Smash 64

 

[rhan]

I'm stepping my Samus game up for APEX.

I currently have the most trouble with Fox and Sheik. I have no idea how to play these match ups.. Does anyone have some tips on how the match up should be played?

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

For fox upb oos his aerial approaches, zone him out with ftilt and don't drop edge guards. Cover him recovering high with a soft missile and follow up with ftilt, utilt, another missile or charge shot.

Grab to uthrow guarantees nair, fair, bair, or dair depending on his di.

For sheik, cc til you have about %40 and don't get grabbed. Dthrow->ftilt is prett good. Use ftilt. If she's off stage take the ledge: she'll either recover to the ledge and die, recover to the stage and you can get up and punish her or recover to a ledge and you can get up and punish her

 

[Litt]

I'm stepping my Samus game up for APEX.

I currently have the most trouble with Fox and Sheik. I have no idea how to play these match ups.. Does anyone have some tips on how the match up should be played?

Not sure if you are talking about smash 4 samus.... but regardless not place or it, and this isnt a MU discussion thread so i would suggest posting there if you want better/more help

 

[rhan]

Not sure if you are talking about smash 4 samus.... but regardless not place or it, and this isnt a MU discussion thread so i would suggest posting there if you want better/more help

1 General discussion consists of general topics. Match up advice is one of them.
2 Check the join date.
3 Don't try to call someone out who had posts in this thread prior to your join date
4 Reffer to 2 then 3 for a refresher.

For fox upb oos his aerial approaches, zone him out with ftilt and don't drop edge guards. Cover him recovering high with a soft missile and follow up with ftilt, utilt, another missile or charge shot.

Grab to uthrow guarantees nair, fair, bair, or dair depending on his di.

For sheik, cc til you have about %40 and don't get grabbed. Dthrow->ftilt is prett good. Use ftilt. If she's off stage take the ledge: she'll either recover to the ledge and die, recover to the stage and you can get up and punish her or recover to a ledge and you can get up and punish her

Anyway I appreciate the advice in the previous post. What about defensive options though? Samus is hella weak in the air against these two and I feel there is no way to safely make it back to the ground without either dying or taking 50+% on the way down.

 

[Litt]

1 General discussion consists of general topics. Match up advice is one of them.
2 Check the join date.
3 Don't try to call someone out who had posts in this thread prior to your join date
4 Reffer to 2 then 3 for a refresher.




Anyway I appreciate the advice in the previous post. What about defensive options though? Samus is hella weak in the air against these two and I feel there is no way to safely make it back to the ground without either dying or taking 50+% on the way down.

1. Ummm General Discussions have a focus... this one is extendurrrrr.... Match up advice using extendur certainly would be one of them, you did not pose that question however.
2. I did check the join date, doesnt stop you from being incompetent or a bad player, just means you made your acc a while ago
3. Rule three is created on a faulty premise that because someone has an account longer than myself, it gives them superior knowledge or respective as a given... however respect is earned not given because you have had your account longer than myself,
4. Refer is spelled "Refer" not "Reffer", and I dont need a refresher on an illogical argument if it was proven illogical and poorly constructed the first time reading

I would be willing to be my sweet ass that I would bop you, and I think you need a refresher as to the way to post on these boards

 

[rhan]

MM at APEX?

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Anyway I appreciate the advice in the previous post. What about defensive options though? Samus is hella weak in the air against these two and I feel there is no way to safely make it back to the ground without either dying or taking 50+% on the way down.

Bombs give you hecka air mobility and put projectiles in the way of your opponent. You can get away with ff nair but keep in mind that their uairs will beat your nair. If you have to, take the ledge and fight back to the stage from there. The more important thing is to not be in the air in the first place.

PROTIP: if sheik attempts downthrow->fair and you're in kill percent do an upb. She'll get hit instead. You'll probably still die when she just fairs you after getting hit, but there's a chance you'll out maneuver them on the way down and it also gives them a lil damage for taking your stock.

 

[JerkPhil]

Afaik Sheik can still Dthrow -> Fair/Uair before the upB if timed correctly...

 

[343]

Afaik Sheik can still Dthrow -> Fair/Uair before the upB if timed correctly...

DI away -> upb can sometimes escape at high %, though it leaves you in a pretty ****ty position afterward

 

[JerkPhil]

The keyword is "sometimes". Either it works or it doesn't. There must be a certain minimum % at perfect DI when Sheik can't possibly follow up.

 

[Litt]

MM at APEX?

At a conference for grad school, cant make apex this year but yes I would love to MM you

 

[Litt]

The keyword is "sometimes". Either it works or it doesn't. There must be a certain minimum % at perfect DI when Sheik can't possibly follow up.

Actually most people do not know this... when you are down thrown by sheik you are also put in tumble animation on top of the hitstun, so if you wiggle your control stick back and forth really fast, you can actually fast fall up air in time to avoid the fair if you do it perfectly I think past 120%, and no the DI is up and away

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

so... do ftilt and fsmash go below the edge when tilted down? I'm trying to punish all these sweetspotted phantasms I've been seeing.

 

[JerkPhil]

I'm pretty sure I've missed all dFtilts I've attempted vs sweetspotted Fox Illusion. I'm quite certain it can't hit.
I don't use dFsmash that much, but I feel the hitbox goes lower than dFtilt, same with Utilt. Can someone confirm these?
Either way, I'm tired of missing the edgeguard, so I've started to Nair instead. Am I doing it wrong if I trade with Falco's Phantasm?
Another option would be to ramen noodle that ledge, but it may require a read...?

 

[ManoxMano]

If your nair isn't stuck out in front of you by the time falco comes near you you will either trade or get hit. You want to have Falco side-b into your active nair basically, anything else won't work.

Do you guys think there is a perfect spot samus can stand that covers most, if not all, of the options of a spacie? I have a feeling it is where uptilt barely clips the edge of the ledge, and you wait standing with your back to the ledge, for a quick ledgegrab

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Random question: When people hit missiles to destroy them it slows them down right? Anybody know the mechanism behind this?

If your nair isn't stuck out in front of you by the time falco comes near you you will either trade or get hit. You want to have Falco side-b into your active nair basically, anything else won't work.

The nair hitbox is kinda deep... Can you do this as a shffl on stage to take out the falco?

 

[ManoxMano]

mmmmm not sure if nair can reach below the ledge to take out a falco side-b like that...
I feel like at that point its better to just use down angled f-tilt

 

[343]

I also don't really agree with run off nair edgeguarding vs falco's sweetspot side b because it puts you in a pretty bad position if you miss. i'd advocate d-angled ftilt/fsmash or grabbing the ledge (though I think wavedashing to ledge could be too slow)

@ BillNyeTheSamusGuy : I'm pretty sure that when you hit a missile with a clanking move ( |their move damage - missile damage| <= 8%; super missiles do 12%), you enter the REBOUND animation (same as for a clank; Kadano actually explained stuff about it yesterday! http://www.twitch.tv/kadano92/b/616823749 around 1:53:20. hopefully he highlights it or something so twitch doesn't take it down in two weeks )

As Kadano also explains somewhere in that video, the length of the REBOUND animation depends on how strong (damage-wise, I believe?) the move they use to clank the missile is. That's why it's preferable to clank a missile with a jab for most chars.

As he also explains in that video, some moves don't clank / have priority if they do > 8% more than the missile and these moves just continue their normal animation while destroying the missile. Strong knee comes to mind here In this case, the strong hitbox seems to also stay out a bit longer; maybe I'll ask Kadano about that today


EDIT: lol I was wrong about knee, which does only 6% more than super missile but to destroys it. So it seems like any move that'd usually clank will just destroy the missile.

Kadano couldn't confirm whether the hitbox lingers longer; I'll try it out in debug mode sometime I guess. It is true, however (as seen on Kadano's stream), that when you get put into hitlag by a clank but don't go into REBOUND (fox / falco fsmash have this weird property), the hitbox does stay out during all of hitlag. (Another example is DJLO's gif of Samus jabbing through a full set of Sheik needles.) So I suspect the hitbox does stay out a little longer....

 

[Litt]

honestly an option that have been working out for me a lot lately is run off and fast fall up air, it covers all side b options and you have another jump to nair back onto stage, then cover the up b

 

[cisyphus]

So I was practicing ledge movement options and managed WD forward smashturn into ledgegrab (no WD after the smash turn). I can replicate it really inconsistently, and was wondering what's actually going on here so that I can be mindful of what needs to happen to do it. Also, is it faster than WD/Smashturn/WD? I'd imagine so, but dash speed and such would need to be considered as well. If nothing else, it's applicable to grant greater consistency with an edgeguarding scenario like Mano depicted in that you don't need to pivot u-tilt.

On the subject of edgeguarding illusions: Photo comparisons of hitbox coverage packaged Here.
This includes 1. Invincible Nair 2. Down Smash 3. f-tilt (downward angle) 4. F-smash (downward angle) 5. Up Tilt (final hitbox) 6. Up air ledge coverage 7. Invincible Back air 8. Fox illusion in the relevant spot

Can you go into more detail / provide an example for your suggestion, Barbie? I tried to replicate it for these images but always SD'd (I ended up doing a FJ FF to get the image here).

 

[343]

yes, wavedash forward smashturn ledgegrab is good (and I'm pretty sure it's faster than doing two wavedashes, though you need to be close enough to the ledge to make it there in one wavedash), though it's hard to consistently smash the stick for only 1 frame for the smash turn (holding for more frames makes you start dashing in the wrong direction). It might be easier to wd tilt-turn grab ledge, though the tilt-turn animation takes like 6 or 7 frames to turn you around, unlike the smash turn which takes 1.

(This was the impression I got after Kadano mentioned this yesterday on his stream, at least...)

 

[cisyphus]

I must've been doing the tilt-turn then, because I found that smashing the stick (as you note) makes me dash more often than not.

I have to wonder if one can simply use the super wavedash motion to accomplish the movement, though: the two input types are very similar, the only difference is that SWD requires two smash turn inputs (basically) but if the second has no effect due to being in the air then it's very good.

I also tried to test dash speed vs. wavedash speed by doing both across the entire length of Final Destination and found that maximum distance wavedashes were roughly 10% faster than the dash, so it's a rather negligible difference between dashing to set up the WD/ST/LG and WD/ST/WD/LG. The startup of dashing also plays a role in this as well I'm sure.

I'll look into tilt-turn a bit more and get info about that. I'd assume that the WD needs to set Samus into the teeter animation in order to allow for the setup, so I'll use that and get back to y'all about it.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

So, everyone always says usmash is situational but what are the situations for it? Usmash oos when a spacie dash attacks your shield is one I know.

 

[Litt]

So, everyone always says usmash is situational but what are the situations for it? Usmash oos when a spacie dash attacks your shield is one I know.

when someone burns their dj and you catch them as they land with a jump cancel up smash

This is actually super useful in the yoshi MU after yoshi burns a second jump to dj armor nair through you... just shield and up smash OoS, or CC it and up smash

 

[ycz12]

@ 343 Aerial moves never clank with anything. They break and go through or get hit.

 

[343]

@ 343 Aerial moves never clank with anything. They break and go through or get hit.

er, yeah I guess I meant "break projectiles"

still, it seems like hitlag extends the duration of the projectile-breaking hitbox

 

[Theftz22]

Plup is done with samus. And just after a big win vs leffen too.

 

[Mattyboy]

Plup is done with samus. And just after a big win vs leffen too.

Proof.zip?

 

[ManoxMano]

After HugS got sheiked at apex too I'm seriously considering dual maining with Puff. I really don't want to become a household samus and just lose to some sheik out of the blue

 

[Litt]

After HugS got sheiked at apex too I'm seriously considering dual maining with Puff. I really don't want to become a household samus and just lose to some sheik out of the blue

Hmm indeed i have been working on my puff for a while too, ever since like Justice 2

 

[JerkPhil]

I also lost to a Sheik in bracket at BEAST 5... I know I'm better than him, so I got pretty disappointed.
Actually I'm thinking of learning Fox, but I'm afraid I'm going to like him too much and start maining him xD

 

[Litt]

I also lost to a Sheik in bracket at BEAST 5... I know I'm better than him, so I got pretty disappointed.
Actually I'm thinking of learning Fox, but I'm afraid I'm going to like him too much and start maining him xD

meh honestly, just main ICs, sheiks worst nightmare

 

[Mattyboy]

So there's an arcadian for my region next week that I have a pretty decent shot at winning, but I have some issues that I need to deal with beforehand. Is there a kind of mental checklist that you guys go through before you fight the different top tiers?
I find myself struggling to switch between mindsets in between sets and find myself doing dumb **** like CCing against peach after just fighting a shiek.
Do you guys have some kind of "dont do this" list against the top tiers?
(I would post this in the matchup thread but it's dead as ****)

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

What are the follow ups to uthrow->dair on spacies? I'm having difficulty following up cuz of samus's fall speed.

Do you guys have some kind of "dont do this" list against the top tiers?

don't get dunked on by falco (I di IN to a dair all the time- its bad)
-don't cc his dair (unless your going for the hard reads)

don't get usmashed/uaired by fox

don't get knee'd by falcon
-cc his aerials between 0-40 (with the exception of his dair)

 

[Litt]

What are the follow ups to uthrow->dair on spacies? I'm having difficulty following up cuz of samus's fall speed.



don't get dunked on by falco (I di IN to a dair all the time- its bad)
-don't cc his dair (unless your going for the hard reads)

don't get usmashed/uaired by fox

don't get knee'd by falcon
-cc his aerials between 0-40 (with the exception of his dair)

Fast fall it to a jab to get a jab reset to regrab or fsmash, or you can guess the tech and go for another dair

 

[ManoxMano]

anyone else do this on bf?

http://youtu.be/RBonuY2YZM8