EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[zDuck]

PSA: Easy way to punish sheik downsmash

Shield DI away first/second hit, drop shield, downsmash/d-tilt. Takes no tech skill or any sort of timing

 

[tauKhan]

PSA: Easy way to punish sheik downsmash

Shield DI away first/second hit, drop shield, downsmash/d-tilt. Takes no tech skill or any sort of timing

This really works for you? I'm surprised. The second hit hits you on frame 16, I assume it causes at least 9 dmg (not sure). This would mean it has at least 6 frames of hitstun. Shield release takes 16 frames. So you would be able to act on frame 39 of the sheiks dsmash. If you then do the dsmash/dtilt, you'll have the hitbox out on frame 44. Considering the sheik's dsmash IASA is on frame 46, if he buffers shield out of her dsmash, you'll have 2 frames window for your dsmash to hit her, or 3 if the sheik spotdodges.

Also if the second hit dsmash does less than 9%, then you would have 3 frames window vs shield. On the first hit you will of course have a large window for the dsmash if you get out of range with di.

 

[Pluplue]

dam you just got told, duck.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

blue, blue.

_________________________________
PCP Contributing quality posts everywhere!

 

[Oddyesy]

Heyo. This guy's curious about Samus's ledge grapple on BF. Help him out?

 

[Litt]

PSA: Easy way to punish sheik downsmash

Shield DI away first/second hit, drop shield, downsmash/d-tilt. Takes no tech skill or any sort of timing

here is an easier way... lightshield first hit... get pushed slightly away grab OoS... :/ lmao

 

[ycz12]

I did my best IHSB vs Darkrain impression: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxdykAHRVo0

 

[JerkPhil]

Wow that was amazing! I'm lost for words o.o

 

[Litt]

I did my best IHSB vs Darkrain impression: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxdykAHRVo0

Lol wavelanding on randell cmon bro even IHSB didnt do that ;p, but yeah stylistically very similar, looks like you give no ****s for what the opponent is doing, wavelanding around everywhere into uptilts and only engaging when getting a hit confirm yourself.

 

[ycz12]

Wavelanding on Randall is perfectly safe, you can always grapple if you miss

I'm working on keeping an eye on my opponent as I slide around so I can react to things. But I do believe that mobility is crucial to succeeding with a lower-tier character (see: Bizzarro Flame), and I think Samus has the tools to always be moving around.

 

[Litt]

Wavelanding on Randall is perfectly safe, you can always grapple if you miss

I'm working on keeping an eye on my opponent as I slide around so I can react to things. But I do believe that mobility is crucial to succeeding with a lower-tier character (see: Bizzarro Flame), and I think Samus has the tools to always be moving around.

yes, but that only is the case when your opponents actively approach you are they caught sliding around, samus doesnt have big enough moves to throw out when approaching that are safe like... ganons fair, dair, bair, autocanceled upair, forward tilt... jabbb xDDD

 

[bubbaking]

A lot of those moves aren't actually safe...

 

[343]

dangit, you can only see my shirt and tie in the background

those hard read spotdodges tho

 

[343]

Just watched Toro from AZ (video here: http://www.twitch.tv/azmeleecommunity/b/568097007) win a local! He's pretty good, though his charge shot usage is questionable

Oh, and his platform bomb pressure / bomb-nairs are nice

 

[bubbaking]

I think many of us, myself included, have won a bunch of locals. Come get me when he wins a regional or something.

 

[343]

Well, even I've won a (very small) local, and I'm terrible The point wasn't that he won, but that there's recordings of him to watch...

 

[AlphaQHard]

Is downthrow charge shot guaranteed? Not sure if true but i heard Young link is the only one that can get out of it.

 

[JerkPhil]

It's a tech chase, @ AlphaQHard . It depends on their DI and tech option (for non floaties). I often use Dthrow to charge shot on Puff and it seems like it's guaranteed on some percents.

 

[343]

I'm pretty sure it works at mid %s on Sheik/Marth and high %s on fastfallers (unless they DI behind you?) as well. I wouldn't exactly call it a tech chase because the opponent doesn't get a chance to hit the ground after the dthrow, but at some %s they might be able to jump/airdodge out of it (because hitstun ends if they're at low %, or because they go too high from the dthrow at high %s).

 

[AlphaQHard]

Cool, thanks you two. I'm a casual player and my friends uses Samus and he uses this combo. I'm going to check it out in practice mode when i get my gamecube.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm not sure whether it's a combo or not, but I often use it on floaty chars with slow double jumps, like Jiggs and Peach. Even if it doesn't combo, they have a very hard time avoiding the Shot.

 

[ycz12]

The real play is d-throw > fulljump charge shot, with the idea that the opponent will double jump into it. This will often lead to death at medium percents since they won't have their double jump and often will DI wrong.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

woops double post

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Hey, I can't seem to respond to Marth pressuring me with fair. This dude I play likes to approach with short hop fair, and then most of the time he'll just do another fair as quickly as possible.

Sometimes he'll do this just outside of his fairs range and if I go to punish (ftilt, dtilt, dsmash) his fair still covers it and/or it'll whiff and he'll just coast toward and punish with the aforementioned fairs. If I spam the sword beats the missiles. If I shield a fair, it seems to be outside upb range. I can't seem to time a spotdodge to cover the attacks.
The worst thing is he likes to do this past center stage where I'm between him and the ledge, so retreating back becomes less viable.

If its mis-spaced I can upb and/or cc dtilt/dsmash but it seems he's reacting to my known punishes and just spacing farther out.

If a marth is in front of you fairing what do you do? If he hits your shield with fair outside of upb range what do you do?

 

[bubbaking]

This is part of why it's a bad MU for us. If Marth spaces perfectly, it's hard for us to do anything about it. However, if this guy is fairing too much, you can force him to mess up his spacing by dashing in and/or tilting between fairs. Dash attack can also catch Marths who jump around too much.

 

[JerkPhil]

If all Marths could space perfectly, Marth would be unbeatable. This is fortunately not the case.
Make them misspace and punish!

 

[MintyFlesh]

Any good samus vs ganon sets to study?? Ganon feels REALLY hard, he can set up tons of hitboxes that exploit my blindspots and he hits like a truck

 

[ycz12]

This is the classic go-to example of how to play Samus vs Ganon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f90FmqKF05E

Also, uh this happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4bcbLDWUV0

 

[C-SAF]

Hey, I can't seem to respond to Marth pressuring me with fair. This dude I play likes to approach with short hop fair, and then most of the time he'll just do another fair as quickly as possible.

Sometimes he'll do this just outside of his fairs range and if I go to punish (ftilt, dtilt, dsmash) his fair still covers it and/or it'll whiff and he'll just coast toward and punish with the aforementioned fairs. If I spam the sword beats the missiles. If I shield a fair, it seems to be outside upb range. I can't seem to time a spotdodge to cover the attacks.
The worst thing is he likes to do this past center stage where I'm between him and the ledge, so retreating back becomes less viable.

If its mis-spaced I can upb and/or cc dtilt/dsmash but it seems he's reacting to my known punishes and just spacing farther out.

If a marth is in front of you fairing what do you do? If he hits your shield with fair outside of upb range what do you do?

Can you crouch cancel Marth's fair? Im not sure at all since i dont play any good Marths...

 

[JerkPhil]

Yes, if they don't space it correctly (tipper).

 

[ycz12]

To clarify, you can always crouch cancel Marth's f-air, but if they time it correctly, tipper, and shield afterwards, you can't punish it (e.g. with d-tilt or d-smash).

^ This is just based on my own observations, if someone who knows the frame data better could confirm that'd be swell.

 

[abcool]

Hey, I can't seem to respond to Marth pressuring me with fair. This dude I play likes to approach with short hop fair, and then most of the time he'll just do another fair as quickly as possible.

Sometimes he'll do this just outside of his fairs range and if I go to punish (ftilt, dtilt, dsmash) his fair still covers it and/or it'll whiff and he'll just coast toward and punish with the aforementioned fairs. If I spam the sword beats the missiles. If I shield a fair, it seems to be outside upb range. I can't seem to time a spotdodge to cover the attacks.
The worst thing is he likes to do this past center stage where I'm between him and the ledge, so retreating back becomes less viable.

If its mis-spaced I can upb and/or cc dtilt/dsmash but it seems he's reacting to my known punishes and just spacing farther out.

If a marth is in front of you fairing what do you do? If he hits your shield with fair outside of upb range what do you do?

Know your counterpicks. If he is spacing double fair then take him to a stage where it will screw up if you are near the ledge like FOD, since he can't spam it due to alternating platforms. Another thing is dash attack a lot. He doesn't sound like he believes in shield so grabbing him won't work, unless you get him comfortable with shielding. Dash attacking him will make him not try to always think he is safe with double fairing, an then you can adjust to grabbing him.

If you want to be hella fancy; CC grab may work after you CC the first 2 fairs and he lands, but that requires him not dashing away. Always stay grounded in this matchup and CC as much as possible, learn to not attack or try to trade every time you are hit when CC'ing . He knows you preemptively do that because you are throwing out an attack an that causes your CC to no longer be in effect and that causes you to get popped up off the ground.

As a former Marth main double fair is a commitment and isn't exactly something you want to go around spamming because it messes with your movement. So, shielding and wavedashing out will help making him have to chase you around a lot. Don't give up center stage or let him push you towards the ledge, that is why he can commit so much to double fair to begin with since you are in a position where he can no longer have to chase you and it is no longer a problem to commit to SHDF.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

He knows you preemptively do that because you are throwing out an attack an that causes your CC to no longer be in effect and that causes you to get popped up off the ground.

.

This is a thing!? Like I never knew this. This might explain a lot about my samus.

Thanks for the tip

btw Thanks for all the responses @ JerkPhil @ ycz12 @ bubbaking

 

[JerkPhil]

That's why a Puff can't CC after a rest

Anyways, I like to missile spam vs Marths and cover the options they use to counter the missiles with grab, dash attack, Ftilt, Aerial, charge shot, or another missile. Let yourself decide the pace of the match. If they are approaching, you are not missiling correctly.
I like short stages in this match up so we can avoid their juggles by going to the edge. My old favorite stage in this match up was FD, but I recently decided this is Samus' worst stage in the match up if the Marth knows how to juggle.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

That's why a Puff can't CC after a rest

Anyways, I like to missile spam vs Marths and cover the options they use to counter the missiles with grab, dash attack, Ftilt, Aerial, charge shot, or another missile. Let yourself decide the pace of the match. If they are approaching, you are not missiling correctly.
I like short stages in this match up so we can avoid their juggles by going to the edge. My old favorite stage in this match up was FD, but I recently decided this is Samus' worst stage in the match up if the Marth knows how to juggle.

I get punished out of my spam often, like the sword goes through my missile and hits me

also, going to the ledge? Isn't this a weak position?
You could ledge jump aerial/missile, get up, get up atk or roll which are all covered by Marth's ground attacks or jump which is covered by fair

what do you do from the ledge?

 

[343]

yeah, the two positions I have most trouble with vs Marth are (1) being above him, and (2) being on the ledge. The difference is that when you're above him, you basically can't do anything, whereas if you're on the ledge, you can trick him to get back to center stage.

Mix up things like get up (normal, AI, or "hugs style" drop from ledge -> double jump barely onto stage) -> shield/spotdodge/ftilt, ledgejump, or ledgehop missile if they're far, or ledgedash, roll, ledge attack / ledgehop aerial if they're close.

I tend to get hit because I choose the "attacking" options (ledgehop missile/aerial, ledgedash) way too often

 

[JerkPhil]

If you get hit by the attack that hits the missile, you're not spacing your missiles correctly. Their attack to destroy the missile is a commitment in itself which can be punished.
Personally, I have troubles getting down against good Marths. I find it easier getting on stage from the ledge actually.
Our best options are probably AI, Fair, missile, waveland, land HugS style, and normal get up (vurnerable only 2-3 frames).
I like to stall with mini charge shot rehog. If you can do the lowrider, I suppose that is an option too.

 

[bubbaking]

If you act quickly enough after grabbing the ledge, you should be able to perform a completely invincible AI. If you're even more precise, you can even get completely invincible start-up of a move your choice. I believe ledgedash can be made invincible too. Also, Samus' normal get-ups are surprisingly decent mix-up compliments to each other.

That's why a Puff can't CC after a rest

Actually, I believe one can still 'CC' during the animation of a move. It is called 'auto CC' or 'fake CC' or something, and it is more SDI than anything else, but it still works to keep Samus on the ground with almost no hitstun in some cases.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Can your opponent shield the upb if they just hit your shield with an aerial?

 

[tauKhan]

Actually, I believe one can still 'CC' during the animation of a move. It is called 'auto CC' or 'fake CC' or something, and it is more SDI than anything else, but it still works to keep Samus on the ground with almost no hitstun in some cases.

CC'ing is actually combination of ASDI down (not SDI) and crouching. ASDI down can make you immediately land after getting hit, and if that happens, the landing animation completely replaces hitstun, so you get no hitstun. Crouching reduces kb by 1/3, so ASDI down can make you land at higher% if you crouch, but it isn't always necessary.

Spoiler

You Automatic-SDI by holding a direction on either the control stick or c-stick on the very last frame of hitlag, and it happens on the 1st frame of knockback and is combined with the movement from the hit... automatically, lol. If both sticks are being held the direction on the c-stick is used.

Think of Crouch Cancel as 2 words. Crouch + Cancel. Crouch is... crouching, as in the animation your character goes into when you hold down, and being in that state reduces the power of the knockback. Cancel is ASDIing down to instantly land instead of going upwards, and the landing animation cancels the stun.

You can Crouch needles/Fox's shines/Falco's lasers/spikes/meteors to get reduced launch speed and stun time, but they can't send you upwards until they knock you down and go into a tumble, so you can't Cancel them by instantly going into a regular landing by ASDIing down.

An opponent that is shieldbroken/in stun/missed a rest/in up-B lag/etc can't Crouch to get reduced launch power and stun time, but for hits that have a trajectory above horizontal they can still Cancel using downward ASDI to cause an instant landing on the 1st frame of knockback and the landing animation cancels the stun.