EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[ManoxMano]

But holy ****, the amount of grabs he got on that jigz, so much balls

New vids of PL on https://www.youtube.com/user/westsmash/videos

 

[Phonz]

i didn't see Duck vs Hbox, is it on youtube? if not does anyone have a link to the twitch VOD?

 

[ManoxMano]

GIMR is uploadin as we speak, but since they steamed on the mlg site, there are no twitch vods and thus, no vods as of yet

 

[zDuck]

I dunno if Duck still checks these boards, but I needed to put this out somewhere.

You played really, really well against Hbox at GOML, but you need to use more charge shots. Often, you'd hit Hbox away and try to shoot missiles after him. Don't do that; it's a waste of time. I probably don't have to tell you this, but charge shot is ridiculously good in this match up, so just use the time he's away to charge your charge shot. So when you hit a dthrow -> nair, a dsmash, or whatever that sends him far away -- just retreat and charge. It hits through Jiggs' bair and is just such a huge threat to her game that it's worth having all the time.

Again, I may just be preaching to the choir here, but that was my thoughts while watching your set.

Haha never be afraid to voice your thoughts, I always appreciate people telling me stuff. On FoD I definitely agree with you, I shouldn't have missiled because of the top platform but for pokemon I believe missiles can help edgeguard because puff has to land somewhere on stage.

Also, always recover low if possible. Most bomb jumps are not needed, but will only make the recovery predictable.
I saw HBox shielding on the platform above you several times. Jump up and bomb that shield!
DI down and away to avoid Bair chains.

Yeah thanks >.> I didn't know which way to DI so I just held up and in, I usually don't get caught like that but hbox did it multiple times T.T. Thanks

 

[Litt]

Haha never be afraid to voice your thoughts, I always appreciate people telling me stuff. On FoD I definitely agree with you, I shouldn't have missiled because of the top platform but for pokemon I believe missiles can help edgeguard because puff has to land somewhere on stage.



Yeah thanks >.> I didn't know which way to DI so I just held up and in, I usually don't get caught like that but hbox did it multiple times T.T. Thanks

Thats actually not true regarding the charge shots, if I remember correctly, jig's side B can cancel it out, as well as a nair or up air, can't rem which, and its 4am here, but Hbox truly knows that MU after playing with Plup for so long, so a charge shot or two in his direction, wont make a world of difference, + worst case scenario, he just reacts out of instinct and air dodges upward to avoid it, yeah you get a free nair maybe, but you need to call out a hard read to get Hbox, or down throw to charge shot for the guarantee (which doesn't even connect at high percents)

 

[JerkPhil]

Puff is one of my favourite matchups. Chargeshot is one of our main killing moves. I agree with Eagle that it's always better to charge the shot instead of firing missiles when Puff is high.

 

[Ørn]

Yeah I never really had a problem with the Samus/Puff match up like most people seem to, but I imagine that is because I've never played a Puff of Hbox's caliber (I've played some of the better Puffs in Europe though -- even if that doesn't say much).

I imagine most people consider it poor for Samus because she's kinda in the same position as Peach when it comes to the neutral game -- ie having a hard time catching up with Puff. Charge Shot just sorta nullifies that weakness because of how huge a threat it is to Puff.

(Also there's the fact that she can rest a bunch of your smashes and whatnot, but there's an easy solution to that -- don't ****ing dsmash Puff's shield)

EDIT: Also, once again, you played really well, Duck. I'll definitely be looking forward to seeing more matches from you! And I agree with some of the other posters that you did ridiculously well with getting grabs on Hbox.

 

[zDuck]

Samus's arm grab-box can catch crouching puff, so it's actually not that bad

 

[343]

dang, I should try using the arm grab hitbox more :O

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT2UpbkL5ig&list=PLPTf6B08rBf7FLF4xvFQfXAdimOf2TMfR&index=13 is cyr vs amsa

cyr plays super well game 1, but kinda falls apart game 2 yoshi can punish so many things that you assume to be safe lol

 

[343]

Plup has beaten the D, C, and B teams of Socal so far...

HugS + Plup only placed 4th in teams though Okami + Westballz went double Sheik and destroyed them

 

[Ørn]

Samus's arm grab-box can catch crouching puff, so it's actually not that bad

haha, I wasn't actually referring to hitting with the grabs (I know about the arm hitbox thing; it's also the only part of her grab that can catch people out of the air afaik), but the fact that you got him into situations where you could go for grabs. Forcing Puff into situations where they have to shield on the ground can be pretty hard.

 

[343]

Plup just beat Ken on stream not surprising, considering HugS beats Ken now, but Ken did pretty well in the C team crew battle...

anyway, in game 2 on Yoshi's, Plup seemed to repeatedly recover high vs Marth... is that actually a good idea? Marth's fair/bair cover a lot of vertical space, which seems to make it pretty awkward to come down from the top corner back to the stage. on the other hand, I guess recovering low isn't too fun either :/

 

[JerkPhil]

So umm... Bomb pressure is a real thing. o.o
I've broken the shield of this another player (who's better than me) six times during two sessions already. One time when he was playing Puff. Extra rewarding :D
Please start bombing your opponents' shields as pressure. It's easier to set up if they are shielding on a platform above.

 

[ManoxMano]

What are the best angles for the bombland shield pop?

 

[JerkPhil]

Depends on many things. I practised vs Bowser with handicap and 0.5 damage ratio to get the timing down, then tried it in friendlies.

 

[343]

lol, HugS' zair here is actually amazing http://gfycat.com/BeneficialExaltedHarvestmouse

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

So umm... Bomb pressure is a real thing. o.o
I've broken the shield of this another player (who's better than me) six times during two sessions already. One time when he was playing Puff. Extra rewarding :D
Please start bombing your opponents' shields as pressure. It's easier to set up if they are shielding on a platform above.

Aren't there frames where your opponent can escape? I thought I saw Barbie post that

 

[ManoxMano]

Grab OOS can beat out the bomb land. THAT IS, if it is near-frame perfect. I think the defender has a 3-4 frame window, a complete guess in my books

 

[JerkPhil]

Well of course it's not a guaranteed shield break. Land behind them and they'll have a harder time punishing. Also, on platforms, they can't just roll away. After a bomb, most of our moves will shield poke. After two bombs, I think ALL moves shield poke. Use this.

 

[M@v]

I got an extendurrrr to falcon punch combo with my team mate at the last weekly here. Grabbed him off the top platform on DK 64. It warmed my heart.

 

[NJzFinest]

How to Sheik vs Samus?

 

[ManoxMano]

There is tons of info about that already all around the the samus board. Hint: last page on one of the stickied topics

 

[NJzFinest]

Lol i was actually looking around last week and couldnt find anything. Checking now, ty

 

[ChivalRuse]

Just my personal opinion on the Sheik vs Samus matchup, although I'm awful at it as a Sheik player; Samus has to stay grounded while avoiding getting grabbed. The whole matchup is basically about how Samus dodges Sheik's grabs. Spotdodging is terrible because Sheik will just wait them out. Basically it comes down to how well both players read each other. The Samus player definitely has to be more solid though in the neutral.

Samus edgeguards and recovers better, but that's about all she has going for her.

 

[bubbaking]

I just went to a decently-sized tourney where I placed 5th. Went to last game, last stock vs The Doug's Sheik. I also train a ton with my Sheik main friend who's 2nd best at my university and Kaffei. On the flipside, I often go Sheik against opponent Sami (sorry, guys ) with successful results against all of them except Knut, so I have a pretty good handle of both sides of this MU:

Spoiler: Bubbanalysis

Samus does not necessarily recover or edgeguard better because needles really shut down all of Samus' recovery options unless you go very high. The bottom line in this MU of course is to not be grabbed. Like most MUs, try to zone them out with tilts, etc. Don't rely on missiles too much unless you are good at varying their heights so that they go above grounded needles. Good Sheiks will run up and shove their shields in your face, hoping you will do some kind of panic move, be it tilt, spot-dodge, or upB. Don't fall for it. If the Sheik dthrows you, unless you know that they don't know the timing of the f/uair punish, DO NOT try to DJ out. All you will accomplish is the very beginning of the DJ (and you and your opponent will hear the sound) and then you'll be offstage or high in the air with no DJ, which is always very bad for Samus. I believe you can start jumping out once you reach very high %'s (I think 140%, but don't quote me on that) because Sheik can't reach Samus in time. CC is obviously good, but good Sheiks and even not-so-good ones are all aware of that. If they're displaying a tendency to tilt and DA too much, then CC dsmash away.

If you manage to spot-dodge a grab, you can generally punish with a fast dsmash. Spot-dodges are bad for every char if they're predicted, but I wouldn't necessarily say they are terrible for Samus simply because Samus' spot-dodge is so good.

If the Sheik is very jumpy, you can react to the jumps with aggressive fair combos or you can try to keep her out with utilt. DO NOT try to DJ chase her if she DJs away from you. Sheik ascends and falls too fast and Samus is too slow, so you'll be baited and punished. Oftentimes, it's better to just wait on the ground and attempt to catch her landing. Dtilt and dsmash are both good options for this because they have a lot of range and set Sheik up for even more punishment. Dtilt is especially good at catching landings because of its deceptive range (I think that move actually has more range than dsmash). However, be very wary of needle set-ups. Charged needles can guarantee you'll be grabbed, even if you shield them, so don't let yourself be caught in those triangular positions, especially in front of a platform.

So bad Sheiks will DA or jump fair at you way too much. However, many good Sheiks will dash in and pop their shields up. If your move was laggy enough, they'll WD OoS in for the grab. If not, they won't force anything and will attempt to catch you slipping later. The reason this MU is so terrible is that we really have no good way of stopping this. If we space our moves, we can avoid punishment, but our best options (tilts and smashes) are so negative on block that Sheik doesn't really care too much if we hit her shield. Obviously, the solution is to grab, but we all know how awful our grab is. Nevertheless, we need to go for the read and grab. It's kinda scary because really good Sheiks with fast reaction times can straight-up react to Samus' grab and roll around/jump over it. One way to kinda circumvent this is to read when the Sheik will put up her shield and grab ahead of time. Both grabs come out on the same frame, but dash grab has less lag (still super-punishable, though) at the expense of range while standing/JC grab can catch rolls back but is a guaranteed rest punish. It is SUPER important to know your follow-ups off of grab because Samus has some of the more awkward grab combos. Off of dthrow, with DI in/no DI, we get fsmash, and with DI away, we get DA (which can lead to more DAs or nair, depending on subsequent DI). We may get more things, but that is the general flowchart I follow. There are a couple other decent options to deal with shields and Sheik in general, though:

• Bombs. Bomb wavelands, bomb dair, etc. Bombs really eat up shields. I don't like them that much except on plats, though, because it usually involves me going into grab range.
• Wavedash behind Sheik's shield. This is probably the single best position you could ever be in against Sheik. She can't grab you and her bair OoS will probably go over your head. Meanwhile, you can pressure her with CC jabs to prevent jumps and WDs OoS and get ready to catch the spot-dodge or roll. This is probably your most optimal choice, but it won't be easy to just cross through Sheik like that. Doing so under cover of a missile can help.
• Missiles. Missiles are decent because they force some sort of reaction out of Sheik, and that reaction tends to give away how she habitually deals with missiles in certain situations. Remember, Samus is a conditioning character, meaning that it's very important that you observe what your opponent tends to do in specific situations so you can promptly punish him. At the same time, you have to make your opponent respect certain options and then use that mindset to 'disrespect' him, so to speak, by hitting him with counter options. If you run immediately behind the missile, you get a free grab or dair approach (dair is pretty positive on block) if Sheik decides to shield it, but you have to be wary of the possibility that she will roll or spot-dodge (although grab and dair both tend to catch spot-dodges); dsmash tends to catch rolls behind Samus pretty well. Alternatively, you can just continue to run/WD past Sheik as the missile hits her shield so that you are now in the prime position behind her. Against bad Sheiks, I like to run past > fsmash because they immediately drop their shield the moment you cross them up. If Sheik decides to clank on the ground with the missile, you can actually punish the clank lag with anything that's fast enough. Samus can DA through PS'd missiles, so keep that in mind. If the Sheik is very jumpy, she will probably try to jump over a large portion of the missiles, so act accordingly and punish. The one counter that kinda messes up the missile option, however, is needles. Sheik can simply launch them on reaction to you landing, so it's a good idea to learn how to vary your missiles' heights so that they go above the needles to hit her head.
• Charged Shot. I'm pretty sure a fully charged shot is plus on block. Of course, it's a lot more satisfying to actually hit Sheik with the shot, but the fact that Samus can move first for free after hitting Sheik's shield with it can be pretty useful. After shielding an unexpected Charged Shot (which will catch spot-dodges and rolls back, mind you), opponents often try to drop or exit their shield because they are afraid of an imminent shield-break or poke. If you are close enough, you can easily stuff this.

If you're caught in the air above Sheik, mixing up your descent with the regular bombs and fat FF nair can stuff many of Sheik's attempts to hit you but don't hang around there too long because she can easily aerial through the bombs. If you're stuck on a platform, you might want to wait a little bit (while making certain to either light shield or angle your shield down) because many Sheiks will eventually try to jump up and hit you, which you can punish or just escape afterwards. Still, being above Sheik is probably worse than being above any other character in Smash, even Fox or Marth.

anyway, in game 2 on Yoshi's, Plup seemed to repeatedly recover high vs Marth... is that actually a good idea? Marth's fair/bair cover a lot of vertical space, which seems to make it pretty awkward to come down from the top corner back to the stage. on the other hand, I guess recovering low isn't too fun either :/

Personally, I also prefer to recover high against Marth. It is true that Marth covers vertical space very well, no mistake about that. If you guess wrong/Marth guesses right, you are definitely being sent right back up into the air; none of our moves beat that sword. However, I believe one major reason that it's preferrable (sometimes) to recover high is that it's a lot easier to surprise Marth with a bomb/DJ/FF mix-up, and even if you guess wrong, Marth probably won't kill you unless you get hit by utilt at high %'s. If you go high, you also constantly have the option to land/fall through platforms. If Marth commits early and guesses wrong, we can get to the ground and might even be below Marth, which is a tremendous position. FF nair can never be overlooked and if we tag Marth with that at pretty much any point, we're home free. I only like to go low if I have my tether and I'm confident in my ability to sweetspot with it (read: not on BF), because I'm prone to barely not sweetspotting the upB and eating a tippered fsmash to the face. Also, if you go low, you really open yourself up to Marth's offstage bair edgeguards, even with a tether in hand, and those are devastating.

 

[ChivalRuse]

@ bubbaking
"If you manage to spot-dodge a grab, you can generally punish with a fast dsmash. Spot-dodges are bad for every char if they're predicted, but I wouldn't necessarily say they are terrible for Samus simply because Samus' spot-dodge is so good."

Depends on how good the Samus is. I 3-stocked Lock's Samus in a gym battle, getting roughly 80% of my grabs FROM baiting out spotdodges.

 

[ycz12]

What do people think about mashing up-B out of Sheik's d-throw? I'll pretty much always go for it at high %ages when I know I'll die from an aerial, so there's nothing to lose, and it's better than just double-jumping or bombing because of the invincibility frames.

The downside is possibly losing your jump, but this will only happen if they screw up the combo so badly that your up-B completely whiffs them. And even in this case you can often land or go for the edge before they can catch you, and any punish they can do isn't much worse than if they had just connected with the combo in the first place.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Litt]

What do people think about mashing up-B out of Sheik's d-throw? I'll pretty much always go for it at high %ages when I know I'll die from an aerial, so there's nothing to lose, and it's better than just double-jumping or bombing because of the invincibility frames.

The downside is possibly losing your jump, but this will only happen if they screw up the combo so badly that your up-B completely whiffs them. And even in this case you can often land or go for the edge before they can catch you, and any punish they can do isn't much worse than if they had just connected with the combo in the first place.

Yeah Leon, I try to do this at higher percents as well, do you DI up and away for that as well?

 

[bubbaking]

I think away is always best because it always makes all follow-ups, especially uair, as hard as possible.

Depends on how good the Samus is. I 3-stocked Lock's Samus in a gym battle, getting roughly 80% of my grabs FROM baiting out spotdodges.

How long ago was this? I've also beaten Lock in gym battles with Sheik, but he didn't spot-dodge that much. By his own admission, he's fairly new and not very experienced in the Sheik MU. Honestly, there's not really much else Samus can do when he's that close to Sheik. His best options are spot-dodge, WD away/through Sheik, upB, jab, and dsmash, and all of those options, except for WD, are easily beaten and punished by just shielding. When I'm in that position, I tend to hold my shield for a little bit and then try to time my dodge for when I think the Sheik will grab. I mix those up with WDs away > tilt. The best solution really is to just not find yourself at point-blank range directly in front of Sheik, even though Sheik can so easily force that position. That's pretty much why the MU sucks (on top of other things).

What do people think about mashing up-B out of Sheik's d-throw? I'll pretty much always go for it at high %ages when I know I'll die from an aerial, so there's nothing to lose, and it's better than just double-jumping or bombing because of the invincibility frames.

The downside is possibly losing your jump, but this will only happen if they screw up the combo so badly that your up-B completely whiffs them. And even in this case you can often land or go for the edge before they can catch you, and any punish they can do isn't much worse than if they had just connected with the combo in the first place.

I wouldn't say it's strictly better because with a DJ/bomb, I get to maintain the option of somehow weaving around Sheik and/or getting back to the ground with FF nair. Besides, upB can be punished on-hit. I just stick with the DJ if I suspect that I'm possibly high enough to escape, but I can see the appeal in upB's invincibility...

 

[ChivalRuse]

It was a few months ago.

Seems he beat Laijin and Kaffei's Sheiks in gym battles, so that's something.

 

[bubbaking]

Clyde's Sheik is completely fake, so I'm not surprised at all that he lost to Lock.
#Shots

I played Lock in a gym challenge very recently and 2-0'd him with Sheik, and my Sheik is only a situational secondary. Kaffei's Sheik is his main and is much better than mine, so I'm genuinely surprised that Lock beat him. (O_O)

 

[Knut]

i know this isnt the video thread, but speaking of sheik...this is from like 2 weeks ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-3jeKE2BBI
really fun set with reno. he made a really sick come back the last game. all critiques are much appreciated.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I think Lock and Kaffei are 1-1 in sets now IIRC.

 

[ManoxMano]

...Gym battles?

 

[ChivalRuse]

They're matches played in concert with a DMV-specific, organized, pokemon-themed ranking system for districts and counties within our region.

 

[ManoxMano]

That's a really neat idea. I should try getting that into Ontario because we have little pockets of people in all sorts of places

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah it's pretty good for rivalries and stuff.

 

[ycz12]

Here's my Evo pool: http://evo2014.s3.amazonaws.com/brackets/ssbm_d91.html

It was originally super free, but Nintendude and chain_ace have since been moved in. Pretty confident that I can beat both of those guys if I'm playing well, though.

Any tips for edgeguarding Sopo when he goes high? I can usually track him pretty well, but often end up hitting him the wrong way.

 

[ManoxMano]

Jump up like...10 frames faster so that you end up hitting Sopo only with the boot of the nair
Alternatively, if you're in a position where you have to double jump, jump neutral/foward, and lean back a bit on the double jump

Thoughts on shooting one homing missile while sopo recovers to make the nair that much easier?