EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[Mars-]

Also since we are talking about falco, a little trick I do, phanna mentioned this years ago, but it seems underused so I'll mention it now. Use light shield against laser spam. Lasers do almost nothing to your light shield, plus since light shield takes longer to drain it will make them think you can sit in your shield for very long periods of time. This will often cause them to approach.

 

[ManoxMano]

Does the extra hitstun from doing light shield mean you cant wd out without taking a hit?

 

[Litt]

@ Litt I tried to send you a pm but I guess you have them disabled. How should I message you?

You need to add me as a friend or like follow me to message me, idk how to change the setting

 

[JerkPhil]

I'm wondering the same as ManoxMano. Won't this make it easier for Falco to laser to grab?

 

[ManoxMano]

Maybe when we notice Falco beginning to approach we harden our shield

 

[Litt]

I'm wondering the same as ManoxMano. Won't this make it easier for Falco to laser to grab?

Yeah... it does make it easier for falco to grab you because you are put in more hitstun.... phanna is old school as hell and there is a reason he was never at the top of the game, this didn't become a wide spread tech, and there is also a huge reason learning to powershield the lasers gives you much greater pay off than half assing and light sheilding against a good falco.

 

[JerkPhil]

That's true ManoxMano. I haven't learned to apply light shield into my play yet, but this may be a start. At the moment I'm pretty consistent with power shielding (as most Europeans), and I think it works great against Falcos lasers.

By the way, I know I asked this like a year ago or so, but how do I angle my light shield for the Marth-killer as Samus?

 

[Litt]

That's true ManoxMano. I haven't learned to apply light shield into my play yet, but this may be a start. At the moment I'm pretty consistent with power shielding (as most Europeans), and I think it works great against Falcos lasers.

By the way, I know I asked this like a year ago or so, but how do I angle my light shield for the Marth-killer as Samus?

Look at the guide I made below in the thread list dude, the way you have to angle it for samus is different than most characters

 

[JerkPhil]

Hahaha I just noticed I'd even liked your post. I forgot about it. Thanks!

 

[ManoxMano]

Does crouching affect the easiness of power shielding or is that a smash urban legend?
Also Ive been working the "wd off the stage nair" when edgeguarding marth, and I will get to learning the Marth killer...what other tricks are in the bag?

 

[Litt]

It only makes powersheilding easier if the laser is passing above your head when you are crouching, because your shield will appear in that empty area first before you stand up, and powershield a projectile, and if you miss the powersheild, your character wont get hit, rather just it wont get powershielded lol. Other tricks in the bag, spaced fsmash, spaced uptilt, just jump off and dair, and lastly, hold edge, stand up from edge when marth up bs --> low angeled forward smash (saving invins from the get up to not get hit by the attack and quickly hit marth with the fsmash before he grabs the ledge_

 

[ManoxMano]

spaced fsmash and utilt doesnt work on a sweetpot right? and I never tried hold edge>fsmash! i always assumed theres no time to do anything when marth does and up b.
Also, myth busted lol

 

[ycz12]

You can also just hold edge to force them onto the stage, then ledgejump through them and n-air. This is mainly useful when the opponent's at high damage, like 90%ish, so the n-air will hit them far enough to force another edgeguard situation. If they're not damaged enough for that, you should either go for a harder edgeguard like drop off > nair, or d-air instead into a combo or platform techchase.

The hard part about edgeguarding strong Marths is that they'll stall around sweetspot up-B range with forward-B and double jump, which makes it hard to tell whether they're going for the stage or the ledge. It takes a lot of discipline to just keep holding the edge and refreshing invincibility, and wait for them to make the first move. (Or you can just go for the YOLO fastfall n-air, which is often what I do...)

 

[JerkPhil]

I agree with ycz12.
Hang on the ledge. If they go on to the stage, jump up with Nair at high %, or Dair to follow up at lower %.
I also use ledgehop Nair to stagespike at higher %. The Nair trades with upB if you don't have the invincibility, so they're dead if they miss the tech.
Also you can jump/run/lazyboy right out and intercept them with a Nair or Dair.
Drop off a bomb right outside of the edge and it will make it harder for them to sweetspot.

 

[ycz12]

I've found that the bomb at the edge is usually not that effective... Grabbing the ledge yourself is almost always better, so you'll only want to use the bomb when you can't make it to the ledge in time, but then running off and bombing makes it likely that Marth's up-B will hit you, which usually ruins your followup anyway.

In that situation I would rather just (a) let him grab the ledge and charge up my shot, or (b) hope he doesn't sweetspot and try to land a max-distance d-smash/f-smash/f-tilt. Either way, I maintain stage position so I can try to keep him off the stage.

 

[JerkPhil]

Yeah I guess the bomb is a better edge guard in other matchups. Still I find it pretty useful.

 

[ManoxMano]

I feel like playing the stage control game when Marth is on ledge is a powerful way to land more percent, and if we land fsmash or dsmash the kill. stand at a distance where fsmash tippers - getup/stand=fsmash roll=dsmash tourny winner=nair legehop into fair=ftilt.
Unfortunately with how samus edgeguards marth you have to pick between edgeguarding or playing the control game

 

[Hawt Salsa]

Let's talk about the ledge game. To accompany Sweetspotting upB and Grapple, what are my best "From the ledge" options? I know if the opponant is at a distance that you could missle onto that stage, Yoshi's story you can hax-dash, and a fair is always good. But what should I be doing from the ledge?

 

[343]

ycz6 (who is beside me right now) says you can Haxdash on every stage. Obviously normal getup/roll/getup attack/maybe even ledgejump can be situationally good. You can probably do a normal getup or waveland -> shield, spotdodge, or maybe some fast move--dtilt, dsmash, jab, or upb--depending on what you think they'll try.

If they're close:
In addition to fairs, I like uairing onto the stage. Fair often leads into upb, whereas fair/uair can maybe lead to a fsmash towards the ledge if they do some funny DI / get confused (I probably try this too much and get punished for it; I also probably aerial off the edge too much in general when they're too far away to get hit, lol.) Ledgehop dair/nair seem useful only as punishes for upbing onto the stage, though dair has advantage on shield so it might be safe.

Things that probably aren't that good (better players, tell me if these are secretly viable): ledgehop straight up -> nair/uair -> regrab edge [if they're reaaaally close]? ledgehop -> bomb -> drift back off stage? Upb through them if there's a platform you can reach?

If they're a little ways off:
Ledgehop missile (or Hylian Lowrider if you can do it?) or charge shot (I try this too much as well)

You can always drop off -> regrab to wait for them to try something, as well.

Also, if you're grappling below the ledge, you can do walljump shenanigans (hold in toward the wall as you retract the grapple, then walljump): walljump -> upb, aerial, doublejump aerial, missile/reverse charge shot, or even bomb can be good mixups. And of course there are other grapple tricks too (rising grapple, grapple cancel, bomb canceling the grapple in NTSC) that you can use to further mix your opponent up.

 

[JerkPhil]

I want more Samus players to use aerial interrupt (AI). It is probably the best option from the ledge always, although it may be hard to learn. (http://smashboards.com/threads/ledge-dj-cancel-aerial-interrupt.311628/)

Anyways, see how your opponent is positioned.
If they are are at a distance, get up with a missile?
If they are already crouching, don't get up with Fair or Uar, but maybe a ledge hop missile or charge shot?
If they shield, don't get up with an aerial, but maybe waveland behind them and apply pressure?
If they are waiting to react to our move, we can do the HugS get up, that is just ledge hop on stage.

I personally have problems getting off the ledge vs Marth. Their moves goes through our ledge missiles, and outspace both wavelands and aerials.
This was how I lost a tournament set in the beginning of this year against a really patient Marth. He even timed me out. After this set, I really thought a lot about our options from the ledge and realised AI (mentioned first) is really the best option.

 

[Hawt Salsa]

ycz6 (who is beside me right now) says you can Haxdash on every stage.

You can. I was just referencing the fact that you instantly grab the ledge when you Haxdash on yoshi's.

And onto the next point, thank you for the options. I'm gonna look into/practice all of these, so thanks 343/ycz6. I'll be reading this post a few hundred times over the next month. ^-^

I want more Samus players to use aerial interrupt (AI). It is probably the best option from the ledge always, although it may be hard to learn. (http://smashboards.com/threads/ledge-dj-cancel-aerial-interrupt.311628/)

Looking into this immediately.

 

[Litt]

You can. I was just referencing the fact that you instantly grab the ledge when you Haxdash on yoshi's.

And onto the next point, thank you for the options. I'm gonna look into/practice all of these, so thanks 343/ycz6. I'll be reading this post a few hundred times over the next month. ^-^



Looking into this immediately.

Not hard to understand, just hard to do in high pressure situations, especially to save all the number of invins frames

 

[Hawt Salsa]

Not hard to understand, just hard to do in high pressure situations, especially to save all the number of invins frames

It's also pretty hard to do your first few times, i'm not really used to something like this.

 

[Litt]

you can practice doing it rising through platforms first to understand the concept better

 

[ManoxMano]

I can do the platform AI, but not from a ledgejump. Do I keep the stick neutral and use the c-stick or what? Does it work on all maps?

 

[Hawt Salsa]

You hold towards the stage and up air with the c stick, I've learned.

 

[Litt]

It depends on the slope of the stage while you are hanging on the ledge, like FD the stage is perpendicular to the ledge, but on yoshis that lip that slopes downward towards the ledge makes the angle a lot more forgiving, and obviously battlefield being the most difficult

 

[JerkPhil]

Works on all stages. It's useful techchasing too.
You can use it to reach high really fast to follow up a launch (Dair or Utilt). Do a platform AI and press shield while still holding C-up. You will buffer jump directly after the AI.

 

[ycz12]

You can use it to reach high really fast to follow up a launch (Dair or Utilt). Do a platform AI and press shield while still holding C-up. You will buffer jump directly after the AI.

Yo, this actually sounds amazing. Definitely gonna go practice this as soon as I get a chance, I'm tired of missing followups after d-air at high %s because wavelanding is too slow.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

...
If they're close:
In addition to fairs, I like uairing onto the stage.
...
ledgehop -> bomb -> drift back off stage?

I feel fair is pretty limited. I most often uair, if using a ledgehop attack.

It's possible to ledgehop-->bomb on ledge-->fall away-->jump into bomb-->attack. But it's pretty limited.

However, I have done it with air-dodging into grapple and then canceling the grapple into an attack. Still. Limited. Not recommended.

I want more Samus players to use aerial interrupt (AI). It is probably the best option from the ledge always, although it may be hard to learn. (http://smashboards.com/threads/ledge-dj-cancel-aerial-interrupt.311628/)

Anyways, see how your opponent is positioned.
If they are are at a distance, get up with a missile?
...
If they are waiting to react to our move, we can do the HugS get up, that is just ledge hop on stage.

Indeed. I use AI on Yoshi's the most, but a few times I'll go for it on the other stages.

Ledgehop missile may be my most used ledgehop.

HugS getup is a delayed ledge hop - it's about delaying, and connecting with the stage just right, yeah.

I'll add:
Don't underestimate baiting into a getup attack, but don't overestimate it's effectiveness either.

Works on all stages. It's useful techchasing too.
You can use it to reach high really fast to follow up a launch (Dair or Utilt). Do a platform AI and press shield while still holding C-up. You will buffer jump directly after the AI.

Don't know when I'd use it specifically but interesting about the buffer jump.

I like to go for the flashier, AI from below into grab...

 

[Litt]

I feel fair is pretty limited. I most often uair, if using a ledgehop attack.

It's possible to ledgehop-->bomb on ledge-->fall away-->jump into bomb-->attack. But it's pretty limited.

However, I have done it with air-dodging into grapple and then canceling the grapple into an attack. Still. Limited. Not recommended.

Indeed. I use AI on Yoshi's the most, but a few times I'll go for it on the other stages.

Ledgehop missile may be my most used ledgehop.

HugS getup is a delayed ledge hop - it's about delaying, and connecting with the stage just right, yeah.

I'll add:
Don't underestimate baiting into a getup attack, but don't overestimate it's effectiveness either.

Don't know when I'd use it specifically but interesting about the buffer jump.

I like to go for the flashier, AI from below into grab...

Ok, well after you roll of the ledge after the bomb, you can use your double jump to zair onto the stage to be canceled by the bomb, so you dont waste the time air dodging, and you can nair immediately after the bomb cancels your zair. So it actually is useful as a mix up. Ledgehop missile, if that is your personal go to ledge option, I would master the hylian low rider over mastering AIs from the ledge. That tech is so much easier in PM, and I do find it rather useful to either get the opponent to respect me on the ledge a bit more, or come closer if they just don't wanna approach me while on the ledge. Also not even just the get up attack, but just the get up from ledge has a ton of invins frames and your opponent is likely to just whiff an attack on you if you do it as a mix up.

 

[Hawt Salsa]

Just to bring a new point up, good **** to Duck (third place at fp4 behind mango and m2k).

 

[Jagoffian]

Just to bring a new point up, good **** to Duck (third place at fp4 behind mango and m2k).

Yeah, I wish more of his bracket matches were streamed =(. He played really well against Vanz; sooooo many grabs lol

 

[ycz12]

Me vs. th0rn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knB8itpRWHs

??? someone explain what happened please

 

[ycz12]

http://gfycat.com/AgitatedEllipticalCockatoo

Save your jumps!

 

[Corigames]

I'm not visiting the boards any more after this. If you need to contact me to add/change something to a thread I 'own,' then contact me on facebook.

 

[ManoxMano]

Good Night Sweet Prince...

 

[Ørn]

I dunno if Duck still checks these boards, but I needed to put this out somewhere.

You played really, really well against Hbox at GOML, but you need to use more charge shots. Often, you'd hit Hbox away and try to shoot missiles after him. Don't do that; it's a waste of time. I probably don't have to tell you this, but charge shot is ridiculously good in this match up, so just use the time he's away to charge your charge shot. So when you hit a dthrow -> nair, a dsmash, or whatever that sends him far away -- just retreat and charge. It hits through Jiggs' bair and is just such a huge threat to her game that it's worth having all the time.

Again, I may just be preaching to the choir here, but that was my thoughts while watching your set.

 

[JerkPhil]

Also, always recover low if possible. Most bomb jumps are not needed, but will only make the recovery predictable.
I saw HBox shielding on the platform above you several times. Jump up and bomb that shield!
DI down and away to avoid Bair chains.

 

[343]

100% agreed with the "charge up when you hit them away," and the "DI down and away for bairs"

Still, great job Duck

(also, A Rookie too good vs Samus? )