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EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

What are your favorite moves?


  • Total voters
    518

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,349
PSA: Easy way to punish sheik downsmash

Shield DI away first/second hit, drop shield, downsmash/d-tilt. Takes no tech skill or any sort of timing
This really works for you? I'm surprised. The second hit hits you on frame 16, I assume it causes at least 9 dmg (not sure). This would mean it has at least 6 frames of hitstun. Shield release takes 16 frames. So you would be able to act on frame 39 of the sheiks dsmash. If you then do the dsmash/dtilt, you'll have the hitbox out on frame 44. Considering the sheik's dsmash IASA is on frame 46, if he buffers shield out of her dsmash, you'll have 2 frames window for your dsmash to hit her, or 3 if the sheik spotdodges.

Also if the second hit dsmash does less than 9%, then you would have 3 frames window vs shield. On the first hit you will of course have a large window for the dsmash if you get out of range with di.
 
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Litt

Samus
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
1,863
Location
CT
PSA: Easy way to punish sheik downsmash

Shield DI away first/second hit, drop shield, downsmash/d-tilt. Takes no tech skill or any sort of timing
here is an easier way... lightshield first hit... get pushed slightly away grab OoS... :/ lmao
 

ycz12

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
734
Location
San Francisco, CA
Wavelanding on Randall is perfectly safe, you can always grapple if you miss :p

I'm working on keeping an eye on my opponent as I slide around so I can react to things. But I do believe that mobility is crucial to succeeding with a lower-tier character (see: Bizzarro Flame), and I think Samus has the tools to always be moving around.
 

Litt

Samus
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Feb 2, 2013
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Wavelanding on Randall is perfectly safe, you can always grapple if you miss :p

I'm working on keeping an eye on my opponent as I slide around so I can react to things. But I do believe that mobility is crucial to succeeding with a lower-tier character (see: Bizzarro Flame), and I think Samus has the tools to always be moving around.
yes, but that only is the case when your opponents actively approach you are they caught sliding around, samus doesnt have big enough moves to throw out when approaching that are safe like... ganons fair, dair, bair, autocanceled upair, forward tilt... jabbb xDDD
 

343

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 4, 2012
Messages
433
Location
Norcal
dangit, you can only see my shirt and tie in the background :(

those hard read spotdodges tho
 
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343

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 4, 2012
Messages
433
Location
Norcal
Well, even I've won a (very small) local, and I'm terrible :p The point wasn't that he won, but that there's recordings of him to watch...
 

AlphaQHard

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 23, 2012
Messages
81
Is downthrow charge shot guaranteed? Not sure if true but i heard Young link is the only one that can get out of it.
 
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JerkPhil

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
402
Location
Sweden
It's a tech chase, @ AlphaQHard AlphaQHard . It depends on their DI and tech option (for non floaties). I often use Dthrow to charge shot on Puff and it seems like it's guaranteed on some percents.
 

343

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 4, 2012
Messages
433
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Norcal
I'm pretty sure it works at mid %s on Sheik/Marth and high %s on fastfallers (unless they DI behind you?) as well. I wouldn't exactly call it a tech chase because the opponent doesn't get a chance to hit the ground after the dthrow, but at some %s they might be able to jump/airdodge out of it (because hitstun ends if they're at low %, or because they go too high from the dthrow at high %s).
 
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AlphaQHard

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 23, 2012
Messages
81
Cool, thanks you two. I'm a casual player and my friends uses Samus and he uses this combo. I'm going to check it out in practice mode when i get my gamecube.
 

ycz12

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
734
Location
San Francisco, CA
The real play is d-throw > fulljump charge shot, with the idea that the opponent will double jump into it. This will often lead to death at medium percents since they won't have their double jump and often will DI wrong.
 

BillNyeTheSamusGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
463
Hey, I can't seem to respond to Marth pressuring me with fair. This dude I play likes to approach with short hop fair, and then most of the time he'll just do another fair as quickly as possible.

Sometimes he'll do this just outside of his fairs range and if I go to punish (ftilt, dtilt, dsmash) his fair still covers it and/or it'll whiff and he'll just coast toward and punish with the aforementioned fairs. If I spam the sword beats the missiles. If I shield a fair, it seems to be outside upb range. I can't seem to time a spotdodge to cover the attacks.
The worst thing is he likes to do this past center stage where I'm between him and the ledge, so retreating back becomes less viable.

If its mis-spaced I can upb and/or cc dtilt/dsmash but it seems he's reacting to my known punishes and just spacing farther out.

If a marth is in front of you fairing what do you do? If he hits your shield with fair outside of upb range what do you do?
 
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bubbaking

Smash Hero
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Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)
This is part of why it's a bad MU for us. If Marth spaces perfectly, it's hard for us to do anything about it. However, if this guy is fairing too much, you can force him to mess up his spacing by dashing in and/or tilting between fairs. Dash attack can also catch Marths who jump around too much.
 

JerkPhil

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
402
Location
Sweden
If all Marths could space perfectly, Marth would be unbeatable. This is fortunately not the case.
Make them misspace and punish! :)
 

MintyFlesh

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
577
Any good samus vs ganon sets to study?? Ganon feels REALLY hard, he can set up tons of hitboxes that exploit my blindspots and he hits like a truck
 

C-SAF

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Messages
378
Location
North
Hey, I can't seem to respond to Marth pressuring me with fair. This dude I play likes to approach with short hop fair, and then most of the time he'll just do another fair as quickly as possible.

Sometimes he'll do this just outside of his fairs range and if I go to punish (ftilt, dtilt, dsmash) his fair still covers it and/or it'll whiff and he'll just coast toward and punish with the aforementioned fairs. If I spam the sword beats the missiles. If I shield a fair, it seems to be outside upb range. I can't seem to time a spotdodge to cover the attacks.
The worst thing is he likes to do this past center stage where I'm between him and the ledge, so retreating back becomes less viable.

If its mis-spaced I can upb and/or cc dtilt/dsmash but it seems he's reacting to my known punishes and just spacing farther out.

If a marth is in front of you fairing what do you do? If he hits your shield with fair outside of upb range what do you do?
Can you crouch cancel Marth's fair? Im not sure at all since i dont play any good Marths...
 

ycz12

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
734
Location
San Francisco, CA
To clarify, you can always crouch cancel Marth's f-air, but if they time it correctly, tipper, and shield afterwards, you can't punish it (e.g. with d-tilt or d-smash).

^ This is just based on my own observations, if someone who knows the frame data better could confirm that'd be swell.
 

abcool

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
871
Location
The Bahamas
Hey, I can't seem to respond to Marth pressuring me with fair. This dude I play likes to approach with short hop fair, and then most of the time he'll just do another fair as quickly as possible.

Sometimes he'll do this just outside of his fairs range and if I go to punish (ftilt, dtilt, dsmash) his fair still covers it and/or it'll whiff and he'll just coast toward and punish with the aforementioned fairs. If I spam the sword beats the missiles. If I shield a fair, it seems to be outside upb range. I can't seem to time a spotdodge to cover the attacks.
The worst thing is he likes to do this past center stage where I'm between him and the ledge, so retreating back becomes less viable.

If its mis-spaced I can upb and/or cc dtilt/dsmash but it seems he's reacting to my known punishes and just spacing farther out.

If a marth is in front of you fairing what do you do? If he hits your shield with fair outside of upb range what do you do?
Know your counterpicks. If he is spacing double fair then take him to a stage where it will screw up if you are near the ledge like FOD, since he can't spam it due to alternating platforms. Another thing is dash attack a lot. He doesn't sound like he believes in shield so grabbing him won't work, unless you get him comfortable with shielding. Dash attacking him will make him not try to always think he is safe with double fairing, an then you can adjust to grabbing him.

If you want to be hella fancy; CC grab may work after you CC the first 2 fairs and he lands, but that requires him not dashing away. Always stay grounded in this matchup and CC as much as possible, learn to not attack or try to trade every time you are hit when CC'ing . He knows you preemptively do that because you are throwing out an attack an that causes your CC to no longer be in effect and that causes you to get popped up off the ground.

As a former Marth main double fair is a commitment and isn't exactly something you want to go around spamming because it messes with your movement. So, shielding and wavedashing out will help making him have to chase you around a lot. Don't give up center stage or let him push you towards the ledge, that is why he can commit so much to double fair to begin with since you are in a position where he can no longer have to chase you and it is no longer a problem to commit to SHDF.
 
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BillNyeTheSamusGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
463
He knows you preemptively do that because you are throwing out an attack an that causes your CC to no longer be in effect and that causes you to get popped up off the ground.

.
This is a thing!? Like I never knew this. This might explain a lot about my samus.

Thanks for the tip

btw Thanks for all the responses @ JerkPhil JerkPhil @ ycz12 ycz12 @ bubbaking bubbaking
 
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JerkPhil

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
402
Location
Sweden
That's why a Puff can't CC after a rest ;)

Anyways, I like to missile spam vs Marths and cover the options they use to counter the missiles with grab, dash attack, Ftilt, Aerial, charge shot, or another missile. Let yourself decide the pace of the match. If they are approaching, you are not missiling correctly.
I like short stages in this match up so we can avoid their juggles by going to the edge. My old favorite stage in this match up was FD, but I recently decided this is Samus' worst stage in the match up if the Marth knows how to juggle.
 

BillNyeTheSamusGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
463
That's why a Puff can't CC after a rest ;)

Anyways, I like to missile spam vs Marths and cover the options they use to counter the missiles with grab, dash attack, Ftilt, Aerial, charge shot, or another missile. Let yourself decide the pace of the match. If they are approaching, you are not missiling correctly.
I like short stages in this match up so we can avoid their juggles by going to the edge. My old favorite stage in this match up was FD, but I recently decided this is Samus' worst stage in the match up if the Marth knows how to juggle.
I get punished out of my spam often, like the sword goes through my missile and hits me

also, going to the ledge? Isn't this a weak position?
You could ledge jump aerial/missile, get up, get up atk or roll which are all covered by Marth's ground attacks or jump which is covered by fair

what do you do from the ledge?
 

343

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 4, 2012
Messages
433
Location
Norcal
yeah, the two positions I have most trouble with vs Marth are (1) being above him, and (2) being on the ledge. The difference is that when you're above him, you basically can't do anything, whereas if you're on the ledge, you can trick him to get back to center stage.

Mix up things like get up (normal, AI, or "hugs style" drop from ledge -> double jump barely onto stage) -> shield/spotdodge/ftilt, ledgejump, or ledgehop missile if they're far, or ledgedash, roll, ledge attack / ledgehop aerial if they're close.

I tend to get hit because I choose the "attacking" options (ledgehop missile/aerial, ledgedash) way too often :(
 

JerkPhil

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
402
Location
Sweden
If you get hit by the attack that hits the missile, you're not spacing your missiles correctly. Their attack to destroy the missile is a commitment in itself which can be punished.
Personally, I have troubles getting down against good Marths. I find it easier getting on stage from the ledge actually.
Our best options are probably AI, Fair, missile, waveland, land HugS style, and normal get up (vurnerable only 2-3 frames).
I like to stall with mini charge shot rehog. If you can do the lowrider, I suppose that is an option too.
 
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bubbaking

Smash Hero
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Mar 30, 2010
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Location
Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)
If you act quickly enough after grabbing the ledge, you should be able to perform a completely invincible AI. If you're even more precise, you can even get completely invincible start-up of a move your choice. I believe ledgedash can be made invincible too. Also, Samus' normal get-ups are surprisingly decent mix-up compliments to each other.

That's why a Puff can't CC after a rest ;)
Actually, I believe one can still 'CC' during the animation of a move. It is called 'auto CC' or 'fake CC' or something, and it is more SDI than anything else, but it still works to keep Samus on the ground with almost no hitstun in some cases.
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,349
Actually, I believe one can still 'CC' during the animation of a move. It is called 'auto CC' or 'fake CC' or something, and it is more SDI than anything else, but it still works to keep Samus on the ground with almost no hitstun in some cases.
CC'ing is actually combination of ASDI down (not SDI) and crouching. ASDI down can make you immediately land after getting hit, and if that happens, the landing animation completely replaces hitstun, so you get no hitstun. Crouching reduces kb by 1/3, so ASDI down can make you land at higher% if you crouch, but it isn't always necessary.

You Automatic-SDI by holding a direction on either the control stick or c-stick on the very last frame of hitlag, and it happens on the 1st frame of knockback and is combined with the movement from the hit... automatically, lol. If both sticks are being held the direction on the c-stick is used.

Think of Crouch Cancel as 2 words. Crouch + Cancel. Crouch is... crouching, as in the animation your character goes into when you hold down, and being in that state reduces the power of the knockback. Cancel is ASDIing down to instantly land instead of going upwards, and the landing animation cancels the stun.

You can Crouch needles/Fox's shines/Falco's lasers/spikes/meteors to get reduced launch speed and stun time, but they can't send you upwards until they knock you down and go into a tumble, so you can't Cancel them by instantly going into a regular landing by ASDIing down.

An opponent that is shieldbroken/in stun/missed a rest/in up-B lag/etc can't Crouch to get reduced launch power and stun time, but for hits that have a trajectory above horizontal they can still Cancel using downward ASDI to cause an instant landing on the 1st frame of knockback and the landing animation cancels the stun.
 
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