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EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

What are your favorite moves?


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    518

JerkPhil

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Can your opponent shield the upb if they just hit your shield with an aerial?
Yes, if they do the aerial late enough. If I notice my opponent shielding after every aerial on my shield, I sometimes try to mix in shield grabs instead of upB OoS. This has won me sets.
What do you think about bomb OoS in these situations? If they shield right next to us, I think this could be a thing.
 

Litt

Samus
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If you act quickly enough after grabbing the ledge, you should be able to perform a completely invincible AI. If you're even more precise, you can even get completely invincible start-up of a move your choice. I believe ledgedash can be made invincible too. Also, Samus' normal get-ups are surprisingly decent mix-up compliments to each other.


Actually, I believe one can still 'CC' during the animation of a move. It is called 'auto CC' or 'fake CC' or something, and it is more SDI than anything else, but it still works to keep Samus on the ground with almost no hitstun in some cases.
Yep, my go to from ledge against marths, is invins downsmash from AI from the ledge, or invins forward tilt. Also yes you can get a few invins frames from perfect wd, because its possible to perfectly invis hax dash with samus
 

Litt

Samus
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Yes, if they do the aerial late enough. If I notice my opponent shielding after every aerial on my shield, I sometimes try to mix in shield grabs instead of upB OoS. This has won me sets.
What do you think about bomb OoS in these situations? If they shield right next to us, I think this could be a thing.
I started using Bomb OoS a while ago, but more of a counter to aerials spaced wayyyy too early as kinda like a bomb nair pary. And another thing opponents can do is angle that shield down and towards you so they are not shield poked by the Up B, because if they do shield it normally they will still be hit by the up b. Another option that is possible against up B OoS is to just hold down and away and they won't get sucked up into the the Up B hitboxes. (<-- which is the very reason why I elect to play on version 1.0 against spacies at higher level matches in tourney, because you can't SDI out of the up air, forward air, or up b )
 

Phan7om

ドリームランドの悪夢
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When do you guys think are really good times to shoot the charge shot in the samus ditto?
 

ManoxMano

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Either as a tech follow up or a jump read. It's really predictable in neutral try not to do it there unless they use a smash a move or something really punishable. Please try not to shoot them when they are 0% and mid-stage, you get nothing. Imo if you are not getting at least an edgeguard situation the shot was not worth using.

A lot of sami love to shoot the shot when they are on the ledge to try and potentially get back on. I'm not usually a fan of it but it's a viable option
 

JerkPhil

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Although Barbie said Samus can bomb jump on homing missiles. I still haven't seen this though.
 

343

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yeah you want to shoot the homing missile a bit before they drop their first bomb, so when they drop after that bomb the missile curves down and hits their first bomb :)

I think what Barbie means is that if someone's shooting a homing missile that comes up under you, you can just bomb on it and it'll bounce you up
 

Litt

Samus
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It's a longish set, but if someone could watch and point out some stuff I'd appreciate it. I feel like I played well, just got better playered and made a dumb CP game 3, and fell apart.

marths harrrd

http://www.twitch.tv/sigmelee/b/584298255 starts around 3:21:00
That was a good run against C!Z, he trained with slient wolf for a whileee as well as the old school samus The Prime, the only real advice I could give besides a few noticeable instances where you lost neutral and didnt sweet spot which you could see for yourself, is C!Z took your shield pressure a lot of the time with jabs but with able to appropriately respond to it and put you in a bad position, be able to break a shield and commit to it, see how far they will let you push their shield, most good players will let you push it pretty damn far and see if you actually try for the break the first time or just wait for that OoS option.
 
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ManoxMano

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Anyone else think uthrow>dair on spacies is too inconsistent?
I'm having technical issues of not getting the fast fall after I hit them with dair and it kills any sort of followup
There's also the issue of the top platform largely getting in the way on maps that aren't yosh, FoD, FD and the active frames of dair just wont come out, or spacie just get-up attacks and it's over. I enjoy the u-air cancel>whatever more because I feel more consistency

Just as a note I've been practicing this mostly at 0-10%, maybe there's better options at that %, I wouldn't know
 

JerkPhil

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Hmm I don't see how you can have that issue if you're Dairing with the C-stick and FFing with the stick at the apex of the jump.
I like jab reseting them after the Uthrow Dair into another Uthrow Dair at lower %s. My opponents often miss that tech.

Yeah that's right Samus' punish game is underdeveloped. I think it's going to get much better once more Samus players starts to incorperate platform AI tech chases into the combo game. Armada told me today he thinks Samus should use more Dair tech chases too.

I'm gonna try to spend the next month trying to develop my punish game. I think that's where I lack the most in my game.
 

ManoxMano

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I think it's because something is eating up the input to fastfall, when I spam it I seem to get it out fine. I'd rather not resort to spamming because its not optimal and it messes up the followup if i keep spamming down

my punish game holds me back a lot. What good is a grab if you get nothing out of it? I'm gonna find out my combo tree for spacies in the coming week
 

Mervis

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So lately I've been throwing out a lot of Bomb OOS, and I've found it pretty effective against an over-aggro play style. It feels really safe to do, but I haven't tried it on a lot of different players. What are some things I be worried about concerning bomb OOS?
 

343

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well, bomb is slow (comes out only on frame 10), so you could get shieldgrabbed even if they try to grab after your bomb input

also, at low % they could just cc the bomb and punish you, probably

still, it could be a very interesting mixup vs people who try to aerial -> shield to bait the up-b; you could bomb waveland oos and then the situation is suddenly reversed
 

Litt

Samus
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well, bomb is slow (comes out only on frame 10), so you could get shieldgrabbed even if they try to grab after your bomb input

also, at low % they could just cc the bomb and punish you, probably

still, it could be a very interesting mixup vs people who try to aerial -> shield to bait the up-b; you could bomb waveland oos and then the situation is suddenly reversed
*Facepalm* Have you ever gotten grabbed while you were still in the morphball form? :/ :/ :? please just think about it

regardless if they cc the bomb... you are now... in the air because you bombed on them and have a jump you can use to evade... or they cc a bomb and you roll backward and then shield... its a pretty good option when being pressured unsafely because as you said it does pretty much neutralize the situation.
 

343

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wait but you don't enter morphball on frame 1... actually I have no idea how many frames before you enter morphball state
 

343

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yeah, so if you try to bomb oos and they grab at the same time, they grab you
 

Mervis

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Samus' hurtbox is a tiny spec in morphball though. You would have to grab extremely fast and accurately
 

Litt

Samus
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Samus' hurtbox is a tiny spec in morphball though. You would have to grab extremely fast and accurately
Wrong... it isnt until frame 10 that samus's becomes smaller, she is very vulnerable until frame 10, that being said I said bomb OoS is good for resetting the situation WHEN UNSAFE PRESSURE IS APPLIED... if you have a fox/falco dair shining you... bomb OoS is going to get you caught in a shine combo b/c you are vulnerable too long... that being said
yeah, so if you try to bomb oos and they grab at the same time, they grab you
It depends on what they did prior to you bombing OoS if they can grab you, you have a falcon nairing on your shield, yeah your are safe to bomb OoS (just watch out for a stomp to follow), if you have a sheik fairing on your sheild, depends if they short hop fair then land, or short hop fast fall fair on shield into l cancel jab or grab, first scenario, good place to bomb retreat and makes space between you two, second, not smart at all and you are going to get hit by the jab and or then grabbed. There is a time and place for every move to be optimal 343, just have to recognize when and apply it. Same thing for samus's up smash, very few uses for it, however there are certain circumstances where ill use it to get a free 25%... sure its not safe if I miss, but I just better be sure its the right situation to use, and understand how competent my opponent is with sdi.
 
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343

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I totally agree with what you're saying. I guess I was specifically considering the situation where they're standing in front of your shield, which I suppose is a silly situation.
 

Mervis

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I mean as far as OOS options go, UpB is probably the best. But would I be wrong to say that Bomb OOS is better in some situations? Obviously I will screw attack a Fox under shine pressure, but bombs aren't as punishing if they space, and has does great damage to shields.
 

Litt

Samus
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I mean as far as OOS options go, UpB is probably the best. But would I be wrong to say that Bomb OOS is better in some situations? Obviously I will screw attack a Fox under shine pressure, but bombs aren't as punishing if they space, and has does great damage to shields.
Here is the problem with what you say, when you get up to playing at the highest level, players get good at CCing out of being caught in an Up B OoS, or they aerial on your sheild and instead of shine or follow up, they themselves shield and angle it downwards so as to not be shield poked by the Up B, and that in turn baits out up Bs, one missed up b against... marth... fox... jigs... falco... falcon... you are going to get punished... hard
 

JerkPhil

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But it's still a mix up. If they shield and we DON'T up B, we can punish it. I have shieldgrabbed good Foxes, and I do think bomb OoS could be a viable option, even though I haven't tried it. If they even angle their shield, it's even easier for the bomb to hit too.
 

BillNyeTheSamusGuy

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So lately I've been throwing out a lot of Bomb OOS, and I've found it pretty effective against an over-aggro play style. It feels really safe to do, but I haven't tried it on a lot of different players. What are some things I be worried about concerning bomb OOS?
How about bomb oos in neutral? Putting shield up covers a potential aerial and when you bomb it covers run-up grab and/or a potential cross up.
 

Mervis

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How about bomb oos in neutral? Putting shield up covers a potential aerial and when you bomb it covers run-up grab and/or a potential cross up.
I like doing that too. Sometimes 2 bombs in a row will get them to completely stop moving and reevaluate their approach.
 

ManoxMano

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When I play some people who are inexperienced (vs samus or the game in general) I just plant a random bomb and they'll wait for the full duration before they start moving again. Everytime I do it its the same reaction, and it cracks me up everytime haha
 

343

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hmm @ Knut Knut , why is it better than wd back oos? because it leaves a hitbox there if they try to follow with a jump in?
 

Knut

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i was actually just theory crafting a bit about this. basically if i had WD away and put out an fmsash or and uptilt that would have been amazing. i could have WD away and and turned around and shielded which would have threatened the incoming fsmash with grab (or to just block if he SH turn around lasered). basically if i moved away and he lasered though, i would have been at a big disadvantage because of the positioning ( i would have been inside SH dair range, meaning no room for WD back punish). Sooo the bomb let me move away, and pressured him while i was doing, and stuffed the SH turn around laser if he did that instead. Plus, guaranteed damage if he does virtually anything.
 

Litt

Samus
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Basically bomb OoS is a net zero for you, with the possibility of hindering a further advancing opponent should they have prepared in advance for the wd back/in place fsmash or shield
 

Knut

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Yea, its just super match up dependent, which is why i went into a bit of detail. Like its great vs foxs trying to catch WD away with Upsmash, falcon overshooting knees, but also things like when falcon spaces a pivot fade away nair on shield and your back is to the ledge, or if peach throws a turnip at you from the ground and your in her dashattack range.

Bomb isnt always the best option, just a really nice mixup.
 

Mattyboy

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Armada told me today he thinks Samus should use more Dair tech chases too.
Should I always be going for dair tech chases when my opponents are knocked down on platforms?
 

343

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it's hard to do on high top platforms, but otherwise, it's probably going to lead into the most (unless a nair will kill.) Plup and Darrell are especially good at timing that dair.

An interesting tactic vs people who miss their tech is bomb (forcing a getup; maybe they could roll out of it though :/) -> dair (haven't tried this on real people yet, because I keep practicing on computers :p)
 
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JerkPhil

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I've done the bomb reset in to waveland Dsmash. It's fine, but you've gotta read that missed tech, and if you misread we miss a better punish opportunity. I would recommend not to use it if you're not super confident they'll miss the tech.
 
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