EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[343]

it's @ ycz12 's favorite thing to do on battlefield

http://gfycat.com/AgitatedEllipticalCockatoo (this doesn't have an upair, but he tries to do that too)

 

[ycz12]

I do enjoy grapple walljump u-air, though I haven't really gotten much mileage out of it; most good players will be refreshing invincibility. It is funny to clip people through the stage, though.

 

[ManoxMano]

Happy that other sami are doing it, unhappy it isn't my special little thing : (

 

[milligraham]

Not sure if this should go here or on the Falcon boards, anyways...
I'm a Falcon main that has started dabbling with Samus a little bit. This has made me start wondering, how come Samus players use their up tilt way more than Falcon players even though the moves are very similar?

 

[ManoxMano]

because falcons don't need uptilt to occupy space when they have dd and a slew of aerials to supplement that
Falcons could stand to use uptilt in edgeguards, i'll give you that

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Who's a better samus secondary? Jiggs or Sheik?

how come Samus players use their up tilt way more than Falcon players even though the moves are very similar?

Samus's utilt is a little bigger. That and its one of her few hit confirms.

 

[JerkPhil]

I'm also using the walljump Uair, but not in serious matches. My opponent knows how to refresh invincibility and edgeguard

My secondary is Sheik, mostly because she's easy to use, and I mained her before switching to Samus 5 years ago. Her jumpframes are the same as Samus, so I don't mess up things like wavedashes and fast aerials from jump.
She doesn't cover our bad matchups as much as Jiggs and Fox do though.

 

[Mattyboy]

I'm having trouble doing the instant grapple walljump, is it just wait till you hit the wall and then hit away?

 

[343]

hold your control stick toward the stage as you grapple, and yeah push the stick away as you hit the wall

 

[Mattyboy]

awesome thanks man!

 

[Theftz22]

Proof.zip?

Swedish Delight is my housemate and told me that's what Plup said to him after he took him out in winners. He also said he's been going sheik in Florida for a while now and was preparing for a switch.

 

[343]

can confirm that every time i see Plup playing on CFL / Wizzrobe's stream he's playing Fox/Sheik

 

[ManoxMano]

The end of an era. Oh well now everyone can go root Hugo more :D :D :D

 

[343]

ok let's talk about how Toro (who I mentioned a few pages back, but got dismissed... ) got 4th at a regional, beating Reno and Tai????

http://vegassmash.challonge.com/SHFFLMeleeTop32

 

[Mattyboy]

Toro doing some serious work with bombs! http://youtu.be/kDWtnmnQowc?t=8m27s who needs wavelands lmao

edit: also shoutouts to Hug taking Axe to game 5 in winners quarters!

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Hey, if you're jab pressuring a shield can your opponents usmash you or does the jab interrupt them first? Is it a timing thing? A spacing thing?

 

[Mattyboy]

Hey, if you're jab pressuring a shield can your opponents usmash you or does the jab interrupt them first? Is it a timing thing? A spacing thing?

I believe that would be timing dependent, based off of your jab hitting them before the active frames of their upsmash come out.

 

[Failw1zard]

Question, when I down throw, should I follow up with up-tilt or fsmash?

 

[343]

Hey, if you're jab pressuring a shield can your opponents usmash you or does the jab interrupt them first? Is it a timing thing? A spacing thing?

Say you jab fox's shield (input on frame 0). Jab1 comes out frame 3. Unstale Jab1 does 3%, so it incurs (3 + 3/3) = 4 frames of hitlag. Jab1 finishes at frame 17 (I couldn't find any IASA frames in testing) ignoring hitlag, so it finishes after 21 frames. I believe you need to crouch at least one frame in order to get another jab1 instead of a jab2, so the second jab1 comes out on frame 25.

Fox takes 6 frames of (shieldstun and hitlag) from jab1 according to the thread / the formula (though it's looking like 7 in my Dolphin testing, probably because I'm an idiot ... if it is actually 7, subtract 1 from each leniency I wrote.) It takes 1 frame to start jumping out of shield, and then upsmash can cancel jumpsquat, taking 7 frames for the hitbox to come out. So that's frame 3 + 6 + 1 + 7 = 17, which is indeed fast enough to hit you. Upsmash does 18% to jab1's 3% or jab2's 7%, so it has priority in the case of a tie; thus he has a 9 frame window to upsmash you.

On the other hand, if you're spaced sufficiently poorly such that shieldgrab would hit, that comes out on frame 3 + 6 + 7 = 16, which is a 9 frame window. I'm not sure how grab vs hitbox priorities work, so this could be +1 frame.

However, if you go for the immediate jab2, that actually starts on frame 12 (really 16 after hitlag), and contrary to what's posted in the hitboxes thread, seems to come out on frame 4, not 5, which is frame 20, so Fox only has a 4 frame window to upsmash oos or 4 (+1?) frame window to shieldgrab here. Of course, jab2 sucks because if they also shield that, they have like a year to punish you for that.

Fox starts his upsmash (hopefully) frame perfectly, though it seems 1 frame late here​

Fox hits the upsmash
​

I didn't test spacing (max distance jab on his shield might?? outrange upsmash oos, though if he just unshields the jab won't hit him at that distance; this is similar to how Samus can jab the edge of Marth's shield, but won't hit him if he drops his shield, so she can't get shieldgrabbed.)

 

[343]

Question, when I down throw, should I follow up with up-tilt or fsmash?

vs Sheik, you want to fsmash on no DI / DI in, and dash attack (or perhaps ftilt) on DI away. I'm not sure what %s uptilt works on no DI/DI in (too tired to test right now...), but you'd always get the non-meteor hitbox of uptilt, so you might as well fsmash for more damage.
vs Marth, ... I need to do more testing, but I think??? these are true: At low%, fsmash on no DI/DI in and dash attack on DI away work; uptilt probably works until a little higher % than fsmash does (since fsmash hits lower, he probably has a longer doublejump window before the fsmash would connect), but at mid/high% it basically seems like you need to sh nair on most DIs. I was previously under the impression that the vs Sheik followups would also work vs Marth, but it seems like he's floaty enough that this isn't true :/

So to answer your question, in general if you have the choice between uptilt and fsmash after dthrow (which I think will happen on most semi-floaties at low-mid % and no DI / DI in), I'm guessing fsmash is always stronger / does more %, but uptilt might work until a little higher %.

 

[tauKhan]

@ 343 Jab1 does 3 frames of shieldstun and 4 frames hitlag, so your calculations are off quite a bit. The 6 frames mentioned in the frame data thread is actually the amount of non actionable frames after hit, so it's hitlag - 1 + shieldstun. I have no idea why it was written so though.

Also the hit frame is included in hitlag, so the hitlag only induces 3 extra frames. Thus you're actionable after 20 frames of jab. That doesn't matter of course except it means sdi window is 1 frame smaller than the amount of hitlag, since you can't sdi on the hit frame. Good work otherwise.

 

[gmBottles]

I dual main Puff and Bowser. Disregarding Bowser because he has no real good matchups, what matchups could be good counterpicks to go Samus? I've been practicing Samus a bunch lately and want to know if I can actually make use of it in tournament.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Question, when I down throw, should I follow up with up-tilt or fsmash?

As a follow-up to @ 343 's answer you can also dtilt sheik at low-ish percents if they don't di away. This will net you a follow up hit to the dtilt.

Also ftilt and dash attack atk are your best bets in terms of follow ups on sheik but none of that matters cuz most shieks will di away and down and tech (at most percents you can't get the follow up on di like this). So just follow the tech.

Remember on floatier characters (peach, puff) follow up dthrow with nair. When samus ditto'ing use fair/uair cuz they di away from the nair and those moves have bigger hitboxes.

So far in my testing most dthrow follow ups don't work on ganon if he di's. Like sheik I'm pretty sure you'll force a defensive reaction (jump and/or tech) so respond accordingly.

thus he has a 9 frame window to upsmash you.

WHY DOES EVERYONE MAKE A BIG DEAL OUT OF JAB CANCELS THEN

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

I dual main Puff and Bowser. Disregarding Bowser because he has no real good matchups, what matchups could be good counterpicks to go Samus? I've been practicing Samus a bunch lately and want to know if I can actually make use of it in tournament.

Samus has a ridiculous mu against icies. She also has 50/50's against peach, fox, and supposedly falco.

 

[gmBottles]

Samus has a ridiculous mu against icies. She also has 50/50's against peach, fox, and supposedly falco.

Thank God, I hate ICs. Thanks!

 

[343]

@ 343 Jab1 does 3 frames of shieldstun and 4 frames hitlag, so your calculations are off quite a bit. The 6 frames mentioned in the frame data thread is actually the amount of non actionable frames after hit, so it's hitlag - 1 + shieldstun. I have no idea why it was written so though.

Whoa, so the 7 frames of "shieldstun" (which was really hitlag + shieldstun, oops) is real!! Yay!!

Now i'm sorta confused again... I definitely counted 4 frames of hitlag and 3 frames of shieldstun before Fox could start jumping oos. But you're saying it should only be 6 non-actionable frames after hit...?

Also the hit frame is included in hitlag, so the hitlag only induces 3 extra frames. Thus you're actionable after 20 frames of jab. That doesn't matter of course except it means sdi window is 1 frame smaller than the amount of hitlag, since you can't sdi on the hit frame. Good work otherwise.

Ok, I didn't know that. Cool So basically Samus is actionable 1 frame earlier than I thought, and the windows all shrink by 1 frame, right?

WHY DOES EVERYONE MAKE A BIG DEAL OUT OF JAB CANCELS THEN

Well, I think (a) Foxes aren't really aware that they can do this, and (b) they have to react to the jab within ~20 frames, which is reasonable but not easy; if they're too slow, they can get hit by jab -> dsmash/dtilt/ftilt mixups.

Also there still might be the spacing thing. I'm starting to consider jab -> walk away a few frames -> ftilt when my jab is too close/misspaced because I can't pivot ftilt.

 

[tauKhan]

Whoa, so the 7 frames of "shieldstun" (which was really hitlag + shieldstun, oops) is real!! Yay!!

Now i'm sorta confused again... I definitely counted 4 frames of hitlag and 3 frames of shieldstun before Fox could start jumping oos. But you're saying it should only be 6 non-actionable frames after hit...?

Hit frame + 3 more frames of hitlag + 3 frames shieldstun. 7 if you include hit frame.

Ok, I didn't know that. Cool So basically Samus is actionable 1 frame earlier than I thought, and the windows all shrink by 1 frame, right?

The windows don't shrink (except sdi), because it's the same for both the attacker and victim (unless dealing with projectiles or yoshi's parry) I don't know this for myself, @PerhapsMan got that result from dolphin, and @Stratocaster 's multishine guide on falco boards seems to also imply that hit frame counts as the first hitlag frame.

 

[343]

ohhh I didn't realize hit frame was special. cool, thanks

 

[Samuch]

Has anyone noticed a difference in play when using the new, white controllers(the one with 10' cord)? I've noticed that the usual notch for jab cancels doesn't really work well with the white controllers. I will put the stick in the bottom left notch, and it will ALWAYS do a ftilt the opposite way. I know I can do these. I learned them on an older controller where if I put the stick in the bottom left/right notch then I could just do endless jab cancels. I know it's supposed to work, because I've seen the tip online too.

I've tried with three new controllers, and four old controllers and the new controllers all did a ftilt and with the older ones I could jab cancel all day. Has anyone else notice anything?

 

[ycz12]

I can do the jab cancel with one of the bottom notches but not the other one.

 

[Samuch]

I can do the jab cancel with one of the bottom notches but not the other one.

I could do it better with the bottom right. Bottom left is a the son I never loved.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Has anyone noticed a difference in play when using the new, white controllers(the one with 10' cord)? I've noticed that the usual notch for jab cancels doesn't really work well with the white controllers. I will put the stick in the bottom left notch, and it will ALWAYS do a ftilt the opposite way. I know I can do these. I learned them on an older controller where if I put the stick in the bottom left/right notch then I could just do endless jab cancels. I know it's supposed to work, because I've seen the tip online too.

I've tried with three new controllers, and four old controllers and the new controllers all did a ftilt and with the older ones I could jab cancel all day. Has anyone else notice anything?

Yea, for whatever reason worn in controllers do it better. I have one of the white controllers that's like 2 years old and the jab cancels are fine. However, the new white controller and the new sm4sh edition controller I bought don't do it. Guess you have to wear it in?

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

What's the appropriate response to a fox cross up bair as Samus? Let's assume that by the time the bair hits shield its out of upb range.

 

[Mattyboy]

WD OOS and return to neutral? I assume that he's out of shine range if he's out of up B range.

 

[343]

yeah I'd probably say wd oos away from him. On the other hand, you might be able to react to his jump over you with no move and just upb it.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

I'm trying to use ftilt to beat falcon's fair approach but its not working. What are some things I could be doing wrong?

 

[343]

you don't want to trade ftilt for knee

if he spaces knee to barely hit you, wavedash back. the important thing to recognize is where he jumped from (and whether he's dashing/running before the jump). learn to recognize falcon's effective range based on where he jumped, and shield (if he's overshooting; you could also try stuffing with nair but that's maybe risky?) or wd back -> punish accordingly.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Is nair the same way? I thought the basic strategy here was to stuff approaches with ftilt.

 

[Schwamus]

So when screwing around in friendlies I managed to get a super missile cancel into dash grab, where the super missile seemed to make contact just after they were being reeled back in by the tether. Besides looking cool (and starting a bit of **** talk) it got me thinking, how viable is it possible to outrun your missiles with certain attacks and have both hit?

 

[JerkPhil]

I've hit missiles point blank, they CC and fall over, I jab reset immediately and then follow up with a grab or something. Also Ftilt can hit them before they get knocked away too far from the missile.
Grab is a good option after missiles as it covers the shield option.