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EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

What are your favorite moves?


  • Total voters
    518

Corigames

Smash Hero
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Oct 20, 2006
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Most high level players a good at nullifying the option degradation that missiles cause. By either attacking or dodging the missiles, they don't allow themselves to be limited by missile approaches.

That said, they are merely mitigating losses, as they do have to react in some way. What your job to do is fire missiles and see how they react. If their standard reaction to missiles is to shield them, then running in with a grab or strong attack would be fairly safe and would reduce their shield to a point where they can't reasonably stay in it for long (giving you more openings to be aggressive). If they don't engage with the missiles and aim to avoid it, recognize their escape path and capitalize on it in the future. If they attack missiles with an aerial, then the move will continue after the hit and you can punish according to which aerial they used. If they react by attacking the missiles from the ground, there isn't a solid punish for it. You could react by firing a CS right after the missiles and let their muscle memory get them hit, but then you are gambling on the other person being unobservant (not necessarily bad, just not optimal). For most characters, this is the safest option. Attacking a missile from the ground with a medium-light move will cause it to 'clank' with the missile and cancel the move. For instance, most jabs can stop a missile, cancel quickly, and allow the player time to react to any follow-up you make.

When using MC approaches, be aware of what your opponent is capable of doing to stop it, but, more importantly, see which tools they are using and use that information to your advantage. Following your missile into an attack is viable, but it may require some conditioning/reading/reacting to make it work.
 

JerkPhil

Smash Journeyman
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Jul 17, 2008
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402
Location
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I don't know why I'm not numer 6 honestly. I've outplaced Baera in every tourney we've been at together, I beat him in bracket the only time we played, and I also beat those he loses to.
 

343

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 4, 2012
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i didn't even realize you beat him until i looked at the bracket afterward! gj :)
 

GoomySmash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
80
Hey so I realized something with extendurrr that I was not aware of and many of you may not know as well.

So in the air you can actually get extender by pressing A and R instead of Z. Basically hold down R and mash A and the d-pad and you can get extender.

Also you can do the equivalent of pressing Z in the air if you light press on L or R and then press A. If you do an airdodge and press A it stops your current momentum, but if you just light press on L or R and then press A you'll keep going with your current aerial momentum, and will be the equivalent of just pressing Z in the air.
 

BillNyeTheSamusGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
463
Yo, does anyone cancel run with crouch to do ftilt? as opposed to wd ftilt? and/or what situations would you use it in?
 

343

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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Norcal
well, cancelling run with crouch lets you get the ftilt out faster, so if you're already in range, just do that. on the other hand, wavedashing is (horizontally) faster than running if you do a good wavedash, so you can use wd ftilt to cover that last bit of space to reach them, I guess.
 

Kushamo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Messages
28
3DS FC
2165-5525-1625
So in the air you can actually get extender by pressing A and R instead of Z. Basically hold down R and mash A and the d-pad and you can get extender.
why is this better than just using Z?
IMO, R+A is a lot more comfortable to do than Z because you don't have to move your index finger off R. Other than that it's just preference, though.

Yo, does anyone cancel run with crouch to do ftilt?
343 is pretty on-point, I just want to add that I'm pretty sure run-cancel fsmash comes out faster than wavedash ftilt
 

Litt

Samus
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Hey so I realized something with extendurrr that I was not aware of and many of you may not know as well.

So in the air you can actually get extender by pressing A and R instead of Z. Basically hold down R and mash A and the d-pad and you can get extender.

Also you can do the equivalent of pressing Z in the air if you light press on L or R and then press A. If you do an airdodge and press A it stops your current momentum, but if you just light press on L or R and then press A you'll keep going with your current aerial momentum, and will be the equivalent of just pressing Z in the air.
been known for years, not new but it is easier to perform to get it out
 

BillNyeTheSamusGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
463
343 is pretty on-point, I just want to add that I'm pretty sure run-cancel fsmash comes out faster than wavedash ftilt
I want to verify that this is indeed accurate: Wave dash takes 14 frames and then you add the additional 6 frames that ftilt takes to come out. That makes wd ftilt a 20 frame option. Canceling run takes 1 frame and fsmash takes 10 frames making run-cancel fsmash an 11 frame option.

However, let me post the caveats to these options for posterity: Run-cancel fsmash takes less frames but it covers ground slower than wd ftilt. Also fsmash has more cooldown and less range than ftilt.
Basically, if you space fsmash but your opponent shields you will be punished, but you can pretty much always space ftilt so that it is safe.

You know you got that good spacing when the air in front of your foot is the thing hitting people!
 

343

Smash Journeyman
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i don't really think it's fair to compare wd ftilt to run crouch fsmash in this way; you're assuming that you're already running, and as you noted, these options have totally different ranges. Maybe it'd be more interesting to see "how far does samus run -> crouch -> fsmash reach in 20 frames starting from standing state"; according to http://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-ground-movement-analysis-turbo-edition.392367/ Samus's initial dash is 8 frames (how convenient), so basically it'd be dash -> run for 1 frame -> crouch -> fsmash.
 

Kushamo

Smash Cadet
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Messages
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3DS FC
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i don't really think it's fair to compare wd ftilt to run crouch fsmash in this way; you're assuming that you're already running
Yeah, I did make that assumption. Dash-cancelled fmash can be good at finishing combos/getting people offstage, but wd-ftilt is definitely more versatile, and much better for spacing.
 
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343

Smash Journeyman
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@ Litt Litt : ^for ... spacing purposes? or are you comparing these to run forward -> crouch -> fsmash / wd forward ftilt, because those are more approach options

Yeah, I did make that assumption. Dash-fmash can be good at finishing combos/getting people offstage, but wd-ftilt is definitely more versatile, and much better for spacing.
just to clarify: you're still talking about run -> crouch -> fsmash, and not pivot fsmash, right? because "dash fsmash" isn't a thing
 
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Litt

Samus
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@ Litt Litt : ^for ... spacing purposes? or are you comparing these to run forward -> crouch -> fsmash / wd forward ftilt, because those are more approach options


just to clarify: you're still talking about run -> crouch -> fsmash, and not pivot fsmash, right? because "dash fsmash" isn't a thing
you should never be approaching with samus, unless its a late nair on shield, or a perfectly spaced tilt (or jab pressure), you are asking the wrong questions, and fsmashing someone as an approach is literally going to get you **** on if you do it
 
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343

Smash Journeyman
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ok "approach" was the wrong word there, I apologize; I more meant "moving forward" options. obviously fsmash in neutral is not a good idea.
 

GoomySmash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
80
Never is a strong word.
Lol I sometimes do Superwavedash -> extender as an approach and it's actually not as bad as you might think. Mixing up your approaches is always important. Going for janky stuff that shouldn't work is a great occasional strategy that even Mang0 uses.
 

Litt

Samus
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Never is a strong word.
While you are the focus on your opponents attention, you should NEVER approach, if their attention is shifted away by actively approaching themselves, or a few other situational factors, then it is permissible to approach your opponent... i was just making a point to 343
 

Corigames

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While I understand your sentiments, I think you would be giving up a lot of opportunities to gain better positioning if you operate under the assumption that it's not a good idea to approach. While Samus obviously can't just jump on someone and lock them in shield (necessarily) like space animals do, there is no shortage of advantages that come from pushing your opponent to the corner. Inching your way forward, poking with tilts: Samus has tools to approach, you just can't be careless in their application.
 

Litt

Samus
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While I understand your sentiments, I think you would be giving up a lot of opportunities to gain better positioning if you operate under the assumption that it's not a good idea to approach. While Samus obviously can't just jump on someone and lock them in shield (necessarily) like space animals do, there is no shortage of advantages that come from pushing your opponent to the corner. Inching your way forward, poking with tilts: Samus has tools to approach, you just can't be careless in their application.
Nothing you just said differed from my previous posts.... essentially you said... samus has few options to use out of the majority of her moves to approach her opponent (not talking about spacing the moves around the opponent, I am talking about flat up engaging through approach options)... and that you can't be stupid about it... :O shocker.... like run up... crouch.... fsmash which was being discussed... essentially you just wanted to hear yourself talk about playing samus "intelligently" .... which is the only way to play her... of course you want to push people into a corner... its the foundational element of applying pressure, especially in boxing.... however there are certainly disadvantages of pushing an opponent into a corner, especially when you are at stock deficits relative to your opponent and they have the upper hand movement wise, but im not here to argue semantics, im was here to basically say 343 and the other guy need to be more intelligent about their approaches, through using what tools samus does have. Don't talk to me as if you are on another level, the game operates under the give an take of what both players understand the other will and can do, if you never approach, you cut off your options and make yourself predictable, while I understand your sentiments of explaining basic strategy, its not necessary, and your time would be better spent on other things.
 
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Corigames

Smash Hero
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Saying to never approach and then give exceptions to that model is not a great way to approach the game. That mindset will cause you to give up chances to press your opponent.

If I criticize the way Hugs plays a match, that doesn't mean I think he's bad, that I'm better than him, or that I'm 'more intelligent.' If your ego is so fragile that you can't handle someone politely and briefly disagreeing with you, I suggest you forego sharing opinions.
 

Litt

Samus
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Saying to never approach and then give exceptions to that model is not a great way to approach the game. That mindset will cause you to give up chances to press your opponent.

If I criticize the way Hugs plays a match, that doesn't mean I think he's bad, that I'm better than him, or that I'm 'more intelligent.' If your ego is so fragile that you can't handle someone politely and briefly disagreeing with you, I suggest you forego sharing opinions.
Again.. nothing you said was anything of substance, all you are doing is talking to hear yourself talk... well read in this case. However it was what you said between the likes, and off hand commends like, if your ego is so fragile.... While I understand your sentiments... that come off from a place of condescension and are what I dislike about your comments. Knowing when to approach and with what, is what defines a player and separates them from another, and how you don't approach as well through giving up and taking positioning. I find you to be very closed minded about your analysis of others which is apparent through how you speak to them. As for giving up chances to press them is completely incorrect, just your presence of being near them applies pressure, and give you information in which you understand their mental state so you can place yourself in a position where you can make them approach you. Please stop talking to me as if your input is even valued, all I have received from you are snide remarks and basic summations of exactly what I was already stating.
 
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Phan7om

ドリームランドの悪夢
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Erm uhh... dont want to butt in or anything lol. :nervous:

But what exactly makes Samus' jab pressure so good? Just want to know.
 
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Corigames

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10doubleposts

and off hand commends like, if your ego is so fragile.... While I understand your sentiments... that come off from a place of condescension and are what I dislike about your comments.
I find it remarkable that this is what you take offence to considering your history and our past communications. The whole reason I abandoned this board the first time was that every single question by newer/lower placing players was met with your arrogance and negativity. No amount of pleading or demeaning would keep you from exhibiting this behavior, and I see that it has persisted in my absence. While I'm not exactly one to let others push me around, I also know when it's better to move on than remain in a hostile environment. I want to offer my assistance, but not if it means going through this every time I don't share your view.

That aside, when I say that I understand your sentiments, it means that I acknowledge what you are saying and feel similarly. That's why I wouldn't come out and say, "Barbie, you are wrong." Instead, I provided an alternative perspective on the issue while still agreeing with you mostly. In reaction to such a minor disagreement, you transform this into a point of contention and wield it against me as if I don't know this. I am aware that I am mostly agreeing with you, which is why I took care to use the words I did. Samus does a terrible job at approaching in comparison to a lot of other characters, so I can see why someone would say to abandon approaching with few exceptions. The problem I see with that is you are creating a mental framework that will disadvantage you in the long run. Instead of urging people to never approach except in X situations, I would urge people to play smart which includes being aware of when you should approach. Blanket statements, especially when being given to people with less experience, should be more carefully considered since they can develop into debilitating bad habits.

I made the remark about your ego specifically because I took care in my first response to not be dismissive of your position while still disagreeing with your premise. I frequently find myself in disagreement with other Samus players over the use of the extender. To me, it only has advantages to the trade-off of being 'more difficult.' As much as I press/argue for it, it doesn't seem to catch on. If I talk to Darrel about it, I don't think less of him for disagreeing with me; I may find the arguments unsubstantial, but I do not think less of them for not seeing it my way. I don't dismiss the opinions of others because they aren't mine, but because I'm not persuaded. Likewise, I didn't dismiss yours, but stated that I disagreed with the way you tackled it. Regardless of my handling, you still met me with-
"essentially you just wanted to hear yourself talk"
Needlessly inflammatory rhetoric. If you want to source where my rudeness towards you comes from, you need only to cite your own comments towards me. You have sown the seeds of bitter discourse, and now you are reaping them. I don't see why this is unexpected.

I find you to be very closed minded about your analysis of others which is apparent through how you speak to them.
I don't believe I've ever had this criticism leveled at me. If there are those reading this right now that feel that way, I apologize. If you want to PM me for a more direct apology, then I hope I can appease you. I would also hope that people understand that I've been playing competitively for eight years, and, in that time, I've change a lot as a person. Hopefully, any transgressions I've made in the past have been more than made up for by my contributions in the present.

Please stop talking to me as if your input is even valued
Did you not just accuse and reprimand me for this exact kind of thing?
I believe you have much knowledge about Samus and Melee, but I'm not sure your teaching can have much impact if this is how you choose to leverage it.
tl;dr
I can agree with 99% of something, and still argue against the 1% I don't.
You can disagree with someone without belittling them either verbally or mentally.
Please stop projecting.
 
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Litt

Samus
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10doubleposts

I find it remarkable that this is what you take offence to considering your history and our past communications. The whole reason I abandoned this board the first time was that every single question by newer/lower placing players was met with your arrogance and negativity. No amount of pleading or demeaning would keep you from exhibiting this behavior, and I see that it has persisted in my absence. While I'm not exactly one to let others push me around, I also know when it's better to move on than remain in a hostile environment. I want to offer my assistance, but not if it means going through this every time I don't share your view.

That aside, when I say that I understand your sentiments, it means that I acknowledge what you are saying and feel similarly. That's why I wouldn't come out and say, "Barbie, you are wrong." Instead, I provided an alternative perspective on the issue while still agreeing with you mostly. In reaction to such a minor disagreement, you transform this into a point of contention and wield it against me as if I don't know this. I am aware that I am mostly agreeing with you, which is why I took care to use the words I did. Samus does a terrible job at approaching in comparison to a lot of other characters, so I can see why someone would say to abandon approaching with few exceptions. The problem I see with that is you are creating a mental framework that will disadvantage you in the long run. Instead of urging people to never approach except in X situations, I would urge people to play smart which includes being aware of when you should approach. Blanket statements, especially when being given to people with less experience, should be more carefully considered since they can develop into debilitating bad habits.

I made the remark about your ego specifically because I took care in my first response to not be dismissive of your position while still disagreeing with your premise. I frequently find myself in disagreement with other Samus players over the use of the extender. To me, it only has advantages to the trade-off of being 'more difficult.' As much as I press/argue for it, it doesn't seem to catch on. If I talk to Darrel about it, I don't think less of him for disagreeing with me; I may find the arguments unsubstantial, but I do not think less of them for not seeing it my way. I don't dismiss the opinions of others because they aren't mine, but because I'm not persuaded. Likewise, I didn't dismiss yours, but stated that I disagreed with the way you tackled it. Regardless of my handling, you still met me with-
"essentially you just wanted to hear yourself talk"
Needlessly inflammatory rhetoric. If you want to source where my rudeness towards you comes from, you need only to cite your own comments towards me. You have sown the seeds of bitter discourse, and now you are reaping them. I don't see why this is unexpected.


I don't believe I've ever had this criticism leveled at me. If there are those reading this right now that feel that way, I apologize. If you want to PM me for a more direct apology, then I hope I can appease you. I would also hope that people understand that I've been playing competitively for eight years, and, in that time, I've change a lot as a person. Hopefully, any transgressions I've made in the past have been more than made up for by my contributions in the present.


Did you not just accuse and reprimand me for this exact kind of thing?
I believe you have much knowledge about Samus and Melee, but I'm not sure your teaching can have much impact if this is how you choose to leverage it.
tl;dr
I can agree with 99% of something, and still argue against the 1% I don't.
You can disagree with someone without belittling them either verbally or mentally.
Please stop projecting.
The very foundation of your disagreement with me is the philosophy behind each of our teaching/learning styles, "Blanket statements, especially when being given to people with less experience, should be more carefully considered since they can develop into debilitating bad habits." When players are stuck in the initial stages of mental development within this game, the first road block they come into, is asking the wrong question of how to approach, instead of pondering what other mental options they have. This is where blanket statements give them the fresh perspective they need to take a step out of the doing more of the same and allow them to break mental barriers through their own volition. You feel that these statements can lead, "into debilitating bad habits," however that is where I feel your ignorance shines through on this subject. Every player comes to mental roadblocks along the way that form from the debilitating bad habits of performing actions that are culminations of more of the same, and in order for them to improve as players, it is their job alone to break them. If they are unable to do so, they are to stay in their current skill level, which is not a bad thing. Everyone is not meant to be a M2K, a PC Chris, or even a Hugs... it is those players mental abilities and effort they put into understanding their bad habits along the way that allowed them to step forward into greatness.

To address your points of me projecting, I completely disagree with you again. The internet is a place where anything can be interpreted any such way, regardless of initial intent behind the words to statement, and I was flat out telling you that the way you were addressing me, did not come off as tactful or as considerate of my own opinions, but rather they came off condescending. Instead of hearing that and speaking to me in a private message to give forward this apology you claim to have given in the last post, you form this paternalistic condescending rant regarding how I reap what I sow, and that your words are a result of how I have treated other players in the past... which seems rather contradictory towards your previous apology.

How about instead, we source where my rudeness towards you really comes from? "Never is a strong word." Nothing expanded upon in that statement, where you first came into this thread, and it essentially was a dismissive statement to discredit the blanket statement I gave in order to allow those two conversing perspective of their other options, ie. approach through not approaching. Perhaps, you should really consider the implications of the words you posit before claiming the other is entirely at fault for the way in which they are speaking with you.

Even in your last statement, "No amount of pleading or demeaning would keep you from exhibiting this behavior, and I see that it has persisted in my absence." If you do recall the boards from the past uhh few months, very little conflict had transpired between myself and others, however it did with you. You throw these definitive statements about me typecasting me into this negative role, which is convenient enough for you to throw in my face whenever I challenge you acting in a condesending manner towards myself. I didn't like the way you were speaking to me.... so again, you didn't acknowledge that this was even a possibility, but instead you acted as you wanted and picked a fight with someone you know was going to take the gloves off, and then shamed him for doing the very thing you instigated.
 
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BillNyeTheSamusGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
463
Erm uhh... dont want to butt in or anything lol. :nervous:

But what exactly makes Samus' jab pressure so good? Just want to know.
It's the fact that you can do it out of grab range on shield. This limits your opponent's options thusly:

they can try to grab, but it'll whiff and they'll be punished by anything

they can roll, which is punished by dsmash, ftilt, or grab

they can spotdodge, which you can cover with anything (I'm fond of grab, since the grab box lasts so long)

they can jump, which you can cover with nair or fair (this is probably your opponents strongest option considering the number of characters with fast and tall full jumps)

they can wd, which you can cover with ftilt



They could probably sh aerial oos, but it'll either whiff or you can just retreat.

EDIT: I'm also fond of jab1->jab1-> follow up combos. Jab1 can lead to fsmash, dsmash, dtilt, ftilt, or upb. Especially notable is that jab1 leads to fsmash on jigglypuff!
 
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abcool

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
871
Location
The Bahamas
I am having the most annoyed experience with this stupid Marth cp, this guy got destroyed when he went Fox/Sheik vs Me, now he has ran to Marth and this character is just a natural counter to my play style. I need thorough tips.

Video is de-synced so mute and watch with whatever music.

https://youtu.be/ChwEW414LbI?list=PLvTVQTkJwzuka2r7NR0I0Vva_fUvqBb85

I have a small mental block vs him, but tell me things like what do w hen he full hops in neutral? Also, how do I punish get up from ledge since Marth has so many blasted INV. frames. Also, when does fair knock samus down even when I CC. I just need a list of do's and don'ts at early percents. I barely play this matchup and he is taking full advantage of it.
 
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JerkPhil

Smash Journeyman
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Jul 17, 2008
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402
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Do: Punish his smashes on shield with wavedash OoS.
Do: Grab the ledge when edgeguarding.
Do: Mix up your approach. He was always shielding or jabbing the missiles. Punish with grab.
Do: Sweetspot your upB.

Don't: Selfdestruct.
Don't: Approach from above. Try reaching the ground instead of trying to challenge his Uair and Utilt. A good Marth won't let you come down on him.
Don't: Grab as much in neutral. He's punishing you for it.
 

abcool

Smash Ace
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Oct 6, 2007
Messages
871
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The Bahamas
Do: Punish his smashes on shield with wavedash OoS.
Do: Grab the ledge when edgeguarding.
Do: Mix up your approach. He was always shielding or jabbing the missiles. Punish with grab.
Do: Sweetspot your upB.

Don't: Selfdestruct.
Don't: Approach from above. Try reaching the ground instead of trying to challenge his Uair and Utilt. A good Marth won't let you come down on him.
Don't: Grab as much in neutral. He's punishing you for it.
I knew most of this an my mind still went blank. Next time I will apply all of these do's and do not's.
 
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ycz12

Smash Ace
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Aug 7, 2005
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734
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San Francisco, CA
Guys. Yesterday I did a d-throw > dash > pivot > short hop > sweetspot b-air to kill a Puff at like 70% on Yoshi's. It was amazing.
 

343

Smash Journeyman
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Norcal
pivot bair is the future tbh

it probably wasn't guaranteed though, was it? since bair takes like a year to come out
 
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