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EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)
- Thread starter Pi
- Start date
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Wouldn't stage choice be a large part of the MU? Approaching is probably easier for Ganon on YS and FoD and we can't ban both of them (or even one of them in a Bo5). 
Renth, I thought you said on the Ganon boards that you're done discussing this topic.
Renth, I thought you said on the Ganon boards that you're done discussing this topic.
Renth
Smash Hero
Just
Listen
To
Plup.
JLTP
Live by it samus mains. Make a shirt or a wrist band or something WWPD What would plup do
Listen
To
Plup.
JLTP
Live by it samus mains. Make a shirt or a wrist band or something WWPD What would plup do
abcool
Smash Ace
Apex was amazing, but i have to know this one thing. Plup why did you look so mad on stream during your doubles sets. It just looked like you were lifeless :/
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Renth/Plup dropped dat Ganon knowledge on me at Apex.
You guys should also check the only stream currently on the main page. Yours truly will be testing out his Samus against Javi sometimes tonight. Oh yea B)
You guys should also check the only stream currently on the main page. Yours truly will be testing out his Samus against Javi sometimes tonight. Oh yea B)
bubbaking
Smash Hero
What's the "main page"? Your twitch account?
Renth
Smash Hero
I'll drop a very long post to hopefully get away from this subject in a little while. RobinHooooooooooood played me while plup was sitting behind us. I'll explain what he saw/learned.
Would have answered earlier but your question confused me, I thought you were asking whats the difference between samus and ganon all together
Geist
Smash Master
I never noticed robinhood's name had more than two o's next to eachother until now
Renth
Smash Hero
He gets another O added to his name per match won.
Renth
Smash Hero
Ganondorf vs. Samus
Ganon has very limited options in almost every match up, this one is no exception. A lot of Samus mains that are losing to Ganons are messing up two to three very simple premises.
1. You're approaching him
2. You're in the air
3. You're unfamiliar with his very simple mix ups.
4. Lack of match up experience.
Ganon is deceptively fast on platforms, however.. he is very vulnerable and should not be feared.
Whenever the match starts stay away from him as much as you can, simple projectile spam get a good lead. He will do everything in his power to surf around the platforms to sneak in attacks, knowing his options are also very beneficial.
Let's start off with stage selection. (The ones you want to play on)
Ganondorfs mobility game is really bad on FD, FoD, and Pokemon Stadium. When it comes to longer flatter stages he only has one or two simple mix ups, just remember where he attacks once, he can attack twice. A lot of them will do things like f air, then double jump waveland towards you and try to f tilt. They're all gimmicky little tricks that are very avoidable and usually telegraphed.
In case you're wondering why I added FoD to that list, it has large boundaries you can survive well there usually and the positioning of the platforms interrupt a lot of ganons aerials.
Basically you know he's going to jump, wait to see what he does with it then abuse him. There is a lot of lag between his first aerial and his second, if a Ganon uses f air then jumps again you have plenty of time to run under him with a dash attack, hit him with a projectile ect. The only time you have to worry about Ganon spacing an f air is when YOU are approaching him, most of the time he'll be throwing flurries of attacks that leave him vulnerable.
Dreamland:
Ganon has many more options to get to you, Dreamland though a larger stage the platforms are positioned well. He can use them to get close to you. If you see him dancing on/around them avoid them as much as possible. Platform drop aerials from him can be very fast, positioning in this match up is very important. However, I would also argue this is a good stage for Samus you can live for a very long time and of course you can play a defensive run away game.
Yoshi Story: Just ban it, It's exactly what Ganon wants. He can use the platforms to string combos, get good mobility and you die very easily. Being on platforms above Ganon is very dangerous this stage puts you in that position more often than you want.
Battlefield: I believe is Ganons over all best stage, a lot of mobility tricks and the stage is small enough he can corner/pressure you into making mistakes like going on the platforms above him.
TL;DR
Keep your pressure with projectiles, if/when Ganon is close to you stay grounded. He does very well against Samus when shes in the air. He can out space her, trading aerials is what he wants don't give him free hits. If you get tricked by wavelands/grabs try to notice the length of them and the pattern he uses them in.
Ganon as a character loses to dash dance camping, he has no answer for it what so ever. He has to eventually choose an option whether that be approach or retreat, no matter what he chooses you can abuse him. If he approaches with an aerial, wait for it to come down and hit him for free, if he retreats to the ledge wait for him to come back.
(shout outs to UmbreonMow, for camping my brains out and making me realize just how horrible it is)
Samus completely controls the match up in very simple ways. I've heard so many people say that Ganon can simply destroy the missiles and then approach Samus. If you have good positioning you can abuse him for it forcing him into your hands. Basic example: If you're close enough and shoot a missile. If he's been trying to power shield them (and failing) run up and grab him when it hits his shield.
If you play the ground game jab his shield a few times, wave dash backwards see how he reacts to it. If he does an aerial it'll likely miss because you moved away, can turn and get a free hit. Just force him to play your game not his, watch for his laggy garbage and **** him.
It's really simple.
Ganon has very limited options in almost every match up, this one is no exception. A lot of Samus mains that are losing to Ganons are messing up two to three very simple premises.
1. You're approaching him
2. You're in the air
3. You're unfamiliar with his very simple mix ups.
4. Lack of match up experience.
Ganon is deceptively fast on platforms, however.. he is very vulnerable and should not be feared.
Whenever the match starts stay away from him as much as you can, simple projectile spam get a good lead. He will do everything in his power to surf around the platforms to sneak in attacks, knowing his options are also very beneficial.
Let's start off with stage selection. (The ones you want to play on)
Ganondorfs mobility game is really bad on FD, FoD, and Pokemon Stadium. When it comes to longer flatter stages he only has one or two simple mix ups, just remember where he attacks once, he can attack twice. A lot of them will do things like f air, then double jump waveland towards you and try to f tilt. They're all gimmicky little tricks that are very avoidable and usually telegraphed.
In case you're wondering why I added FoD to that list, it has large boundaries you can survive well there usually and the positioning of the platforms interrupt a lot of ganons aerials.
Basically you know he's going to jump, wait to see what he does with it then abuse him. There is a lot of lag between his first aerial and his second, if a Ganon uses f air then jumps again you have plenty of time to run under him with a dash attack, hit him with a projectile ect. The only time you have to worry about Ganon spacing an f air is when YOU are approaching him, most of the time he'll be throwing flurries of attacks that leave him vulnerable.
Dreamland:
Ganon has many more options to get to you, Dreamland though a larger stage the platforms are positioned well. He can use them to get close to you. If you see him dancing on/around them avoid them as much as possible. Platform drop aerials from him can be very fast, positioning in this match up is very important. However, I would also argue this is a good stage for Samus you can live for a very long time and of course you can play a defensive run away game.
Yoshi Story: Just ban it, It's exactly what Ganon wants. He can use the platforms to string combos, get good mobility and you die very easily. Being on platforms above Ganon is very dangerous this stage puts you in that position more often than you want.
Battlefield: I believe is Ganons over all best stage, a lot of mobility tricks and the stage is small enough he can corner/pressure you into making mistakes like going on the platforms above him.
TL;DR
Keep your pressure with projectiles, if/when Ganon is close to you stay grounded. He does very well against Samus when shes in the air. He can out space her, trading aerials is what he wants don't give him free hits. If you get tricked by wavelands/grabs try to notice the length of them and the pattern he uses them in.
Ganon as a character loses to dash dance camping, he has no answer for it what so ever. He has to eventually choose an option whether that be approach or retreat, no matter what he chooses you can abuse him. If he approaches with an aerial, wait for it to come down and hit him for free, if he retreats to the ledge wait for him to come back.
(shout outs to UmbreonMow, for camping my brains out and making me realize just how horrible it is)
Samus completely controls the match up in very simple ways. I've heard so many people say that Ganon can simply destroy the missiles and then approach Samus. If you have good positioning you can abuse him for it forcing him into your hands. Basic example: If you're close enough and shoot a missile. If he's been trying to power shield them (and failing) run up and grab him when it hits his shield.
If you play the ground game jab his shield a few times, wave dash backwards see how he reacts to it. If he does an aerial it'll likely miss because you moved away, can turn and get a free hit. Just force him to play your game not his, watch for his laggy garbage and **** him.
It's really simple.
Renth
Smash Hero
yep.So do the armada and camp him while being slightly mobile to punish any laggy attempt to break a missile.
You got it.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I faced a Ganon last night at a smashfest. Got murdered but at least I know why.
I was either:
A) above him
B) mistimed an approach
C) flubbed my missile spam giving him an opening
And after that solid post by renth, getting on computer to do more work on that Samus index thread.
I was either:
A) above him
B) mistimed an approach
C) flubbed my missile spam giving him an opening
And after that solid post by renth, getting on computer to do more work on that Samus index thread.
GunPunch
Smash Apprentice
Ok, so I played that peach that I was talking about. I got owned. I made quite a few of the mistakes that you guys mentioned. He seemed to take away my space VERY easily (i think bubbaking mentioned this). i tried to keep some missiles on the field, or at least missile cancel sometimes to stop him from pulling too many turnips. If he would also then fc aerials to take me space away. I used up-b oos pretty effectively, but he would grab me sometimes. Also, keep in mind that i couldn't always wavedash back. I'm remembering a game on battlefield and there's really only room for one wavedash back (maybe two, depending on if he keeps pushing or pulls back a bit). I guess i need to react appropriately on the first wavedash back.
as for getting grabs off of the missiles. often there was a turnip in the way. For instance, i would shoot a missile and he would throw a turnip. Even if the missile goes though, the turnip bounces up and i couldn't run in cleanly and get the grab. This didnt always happen, i did get a handful of grabs, but i felt like i should've got more. also, he was getting really good at mixing up his reaction to missiles. after a couple of games, he would start jumping and avoiding the grab. i guess thats possibly just a slow reaction on my part though.
recovery. if i was down low, i had to pray that i would make it back. the turnips were ruthless. should i possibly try catching them? or throwing an aerial out of the bomb jump if i'm high enough?
things i definitely could do better: DI. i often got comboed for an extra hit or two because i didn't DI properly (which usually should've been away, as you guys warned). I also think I should've went more up on my DI when i got knocked far offstage, to prevent low recoveries.
i think i could've also used wavelands on platforms more to avoid getting pushed to the ledge so easily.
someone also said CC a fair at lower percents? maybe i could try that (although i know it was debated).
any specific tips based on what i've said? i re-read what you guys posted, and i think if i follow those tips more then i'll do much better. but maybe there are other things to do against a super aggro peach? (but he spaces pretty well...).
as for getting grabs off of the missiles. often there was a turnip in the way. For instance, i would shoot a missile and he would throw a turnip. Even if the missile goes though, the turnip bounces up and i couldn't run in cleanly and get the grab. This didnt always happen, i did get a handful of grabs, but i felt like i should've got more. also, he was getting really good at mixing up his reaction to missiles. after a couple of games, he would start jumping and avoiding the grab. i guess thats possibly just a slow reaction on my part though.
recovery. if i was down low, i had to pray that i would make it back. the turnips were ruthless. should i possibly try catching them? or throwing an aerial out of the bomb jump if i'm high enough?
things i definitely could do better: DI. i often got comboed for an extra hit or two because i didn't DI properly (which usually should've been away, as you guys warned). I also think I should've went more up on my DI when i got knocked far offstage, to prevent low recoveries.
i think i could've also used wavelands on platforms more to avoid getting pushed to the ledge so easily.
someone also said CC a fair at lower percents? maybe i could try that (although i know it was debated).
any specific tips based on what i've said? i re-read what you guys posted, and i think if i follow those tips more then i'll do much better. but maybe there are other things to do against a super aggro peach? (but he spaces pretty well...).
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Bombs have radically changed my game. I don't know if that will help though.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I am seriously learning Marth for that MU. Despite the fact that Sheik and Falcon are definitely much harder, Peach is literally my most hated MU. I just hate that character so much and she is actually the ONLY character that can make me not want to play Samus.
Don't mind me, though. I'm probably biased because of Ben Grimm in NY and Epsilon in VA.
Don't mind me, though. I'm probably biased because of Ben Grimm in NY and Epsilon in VA.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I'll try to give advice on what I can. Hopefully, you find something that helps.
If your mix-ups just don't seem to work and you can't figure out what to do, you can just lay back and missile camp; make her come to you and punish her approach. I won an entire set in bracket against a Peach I simply did not want to fight up close through that one single strategy.
You'll probably want to ask Knut for advice on catching them. He's amazing and consistent at it (as he is with a lot of technical and tricky things).
Yeah, DI everything else high. If she grabs you at high %'s, get immediately ready to DI for fthrow. If she uses any other throw, you can just change your DI on reaction. Her throws are pretty slow, except for that fthrow.
You really have to mix-up how you follow up on your missile pressure. Missile > grab works if he likes to stick in that shield. If he starts jumping over the missiles, then you can start covering that air space with an aerial, Charged Shot, or another missile. If he starts rolling, then you have to anticipate/react appropriately and punish. If he does roll, he'll probably do so towards you to completely avoid the missile. If you're following closely behind your missile, you can stop and dsmash or WD back and fsmash/ftilt/xyz move to catch the roll. Charged Shots are also really good at catching rolls. You can treat spot-dodges similarly, although I can usually still grab those.
If your mix-ups just don't seem to work and you can't figure out what to do, you can just lay back and missile camp; make her come to you and punish her approach. I won an entire set in bracket against a Peach I simply did not want to fight up close through that one single strategy.
Yes, catching those turnips is apparently REALLY good. I'm no good at that, though. I just avoid them.
You'll probably want to ask Knut for advice on catching them. He's amazing and consistent at it (as he is with a lot of technical and tricky things).Make sure you DI her dthrow behind her. Doing otherwise sets you up for a nair or, at low %'s, a dsmash.
Yeah, DI everything else high. If she grabs you at high %'s, get immediately ready to DI for fthrow. If she uses any other throw, you can just change your DI on reaction. Her throws are pretty slow, except for that fthrow.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Samus takes a full 3 minutes when recovering to the stage on larger maps at a high percent. Does anyone take this time to stop & think about their opponent? What you may be doing wrong? Doing right?
Something I noticed I do when recovering at high percents. If this makes no sense, I should have been asleep 5 hours ago. Goddamn Apex videos...
Something I noticed I do when recovering at high percents. If this makes no sense, I should have been asleep 5 hours ago. Goddamn Apex videos...
ThePrime
Smash Lord
Standing missles vs sheik on fd is soooooooo goood
Knut
Smash Apprentice
if peach has pushed you too far back into the corner by floating, you can always dash attack right past her as she is coming down with fair. running fullhop fair of your own works very well too, comes out super fast, and allows you to make it past her without trading.
i practiced catching turnips with lvl 9 peach. have her pull a turnips and follow you to the edge with it. jump off the ledge, start bomb jumping, and catch it while doing so. then try dropping it, and bomb jumping off of it. honestly, its a technique i rarely use anymore though because recovering low vs peach is just bad. but its definitely worth knowing how to do just in case.
CC fair can work if she does it high enough from the ground..but if that's the case, you can out space her fair with dsmash anyway. although it is tricky and the timing is pretty tight.
and thanks for the info renth. i know i seriously over-complicated the match-up for myself. i just gotta use more missiles in general i guess. >_<
i practiced catching turnips with lvl 9 peach. have her pull a turnips and follow you to the edge with it. jump off the ledge, start bomb jumping, and catch it while doing so. then try dropping it, and bomb jumping off of it. honestly, its a technique i rarely use anymore though because recovering low vs peach is just bad. but its definitely worth knowing how to do just in case.
CC fair can work if she does it high enough from the ground..but if that's the case, you can out space her fair with dsmash anyway. although it is tricky and the timing is pretty tight.
and thanks for the info renth. i know i seriously over-complicated the match-up for myself. i just gotta use more missiles in general i guess. >_<
GunPunch
Smash Apprentice
Ok, thanks for the advice! I didn't use charge shot very much for mixups or to cover options. I'll have to do that more. Actually I don't think I used charge shot very effectively at all
I never thought about using dash attack to go under a floating peach either. I'm looking forward to my next matchup with him!
I never thought about using dash attack to go under a floating peach either. I'm looking forward to my next matchup with him!
Pluplue
Smash Ace
bubbaking
Smash Hero
He's a pretty serious guy. I remember noticing that myself while watching his matches at Apex '12. Dude has a mean Fox, too. 
About recovery against Peach, this is one MU where it's simply imperative that you save your DJ. A lot of Peaches I know like to just float out and try to intercept the bomb jumping, so it's a piece of cake to jump over them when they do this and make it back onstage. Sometimes, I even get to dair them for their troubles.
About recovery against Peach, this is one MU where it's simply imperative that you save your DJ. A lot of Peaches I know like to just float out and try to intercept the bomb jumping, so it's a piece of cake to jump over them when they do this and make it back onstage. Sometimes, I even get to dair them for their troubles.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
This is in part because of you guys I blame and thank all of you.Time to gauge my improvement. Apex 2012 was my first ever tournament and I was lucky enough to spectate at Apex 2013.
Apex 2012
- Pikachu main
- Did not L-cancel or have knowledge of how to
- Thought that L-canceling made everything on shield safe
- Did not use wavedashing
- Did not take a game off anyone
- Did not JC grab
- Literally only used uair, nair, dair, ftilt, fsmash, and usmash
- Was too afraid to sit down and play people for fear of not being good enough
Apex 2013
- Samus main (funsies with Falcon)
- L-cancel everything(unless I'm autocancelling some Falcon stuff)
- Knowledge of the game increased 10 fold(frame data, goals of the player, playstyles, and much much more.)
- Wavedash with every character I play like it's nobody's business.
- Have taken sets of people in local tournament matches.
- JC grab everything(except with Samus, situation depending)
- I use every move at my disposal each with their own situational purpose
- I have angular attacks and I abuse all of them at will
- Beginnings of shield dropping to remove myself from being trapped on platforms in shield
- I no longer have to watch my character as I play. I know where I am, what my character is doing and have my full undivided attention focused on my opponent.
- Not afraid to sit down with anyone and have a match with them.
- No more negative pre-match thoughts regardless of opponent skill level
- The patience and discipline to play whatever playstyle I need to win regardless if my opponent thinks Samus is g@y or not
- Autocancelling and edgecancelling Falcon stuffs
- Triple and quad knees with Falcon feels soooooooooo good to finally be able to do it one year later
- Studying my opponents habits mid-match.
- Making reads off said habits and punishing them severely
- Conditioning my opponent and controlling their space
Apex 2014
- Make bracket at Apex 2014
- Top 4 at a local
- ???
- ???
A lot of things can change in one year and nothing would have changed about me without the help of the smash community. To all the new players, there are no limits.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Congrats to you, man! That's a really a motivating think to look at. Gives me some faith in the future...
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
One of my proudest moments. Testing my skills against Javi's Falcon and showing him what that jab pressure is all about. Literally only watch the jab pressure otherwise it's just a bunch of knees...lol
http://www.twitch.tv/ticosmash/b/357373377?t=2h31m
Happens around the 2:31:12 mark.
http://www.twitch.tv/ticosmash/b/357373377?t=2h31m
Happens around the 2:31:12 mark.
GunPunch
Smash Apprentice
Sweet jab pressure! I'm still working on that. Actually, there's quite a bit of stuff that I need to work on. Awesome post, those are great improvements. It's also extremely encouraging. Time to step up my game!
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I wrote down an extensive list on my ipod throughout Apex of things I would like to work on. Haven't gotten back to it yet though. It's been real busy post Apex.
As for the jab pressure, just ask Knut or me, Knut was pretty good at explaining it though. Honestly, just sit down for like 20 minutes fine tuning that sweet spot and the next friendlies you have just spam it all game long til you feel comfortable with it.
I'm almost 100% certain it is faster than the dtilt method. And Samus may have IASA frames on that move but were never discovered.
As for the jab pressure, just ask Knut or me, Knut was pretty good at explaining it though. Honestly, just sit down for like 20 minutes fine tuning that sweet spot and the next friendlies you have just spam it all game long til you feel comfortable with it.
I'm almost 100% certain it is faster than the dtilt method. And Samus may have IASA frames on that move but were never discovered.
ycz12
Smash Ace
SH missile cancelling with a stitchface in hand is amazing. Learn how to catch turnips.
GunPunch
Smash Apprentice
I played a bunch of games against Peach today, and I did a lot better Fair is so good! Also, I'm caught a few turnips, it was really really good. I need to get better at it. I still made some mistakes, but the matches were A LOT closer. Thanks for the help guys! I look forward to beating him soon
Fair is so good! Also, I'm caught a few turnips, it was really really good. I need to get better at it. I still made some mistakes, but the matches were A LOT closer. Thanks for the help guys! I look forward to beating him soon 
Pi
Smash Hero
get top 4 in fl = top 20 at nationals.I would love to get top 4 at locals! Too bad I live in the same state as Shiz Hbox Plup and Colbol.
[edit] ganon is ez pz
~~~~~~~~~~~~
and starting to think missiles and how/when you use/follow them up separates the good from the great
[edit]
>opponent under platform
>bomb, bomb, waveland on/off platform into stuff (missile imo)
>tha pressah
j/k new meta from 5 minutes ago
>opponent under platform
>bomb, bomb, AERIAL INTERUPT on platform into stuff (drop down bomb -> repeat? drop down nair?) sup
>tha pressah
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
So your saying bomb their shield twice and use the popup to waveland?
Knut
Smash Apprentice
pi<3 great seeing you at apex bro.
double bomb on shield is ****ing ****.
i rarely used it before apex, and went crazy using it that weekend. now i'm in love.
i've been thinking about wavebomb on shield and off platform > waveland under them > utilt
still have yet to try this though.
bomb, bomb, waveland to top platform > dsmash if they jump at you? fall through missile if they don't?
double bomb on shield is ****ing ****.
i rarely used it before apex, and went crazy using it that weekend. now i'm in love.
i've been thinking about wavebomb on shield and off platform > waveland under them > utilt
still have yet to try this though.
bomb, bomb, waveland to top platform > dsmash if they jump at you? fall through missile if they don't?
Pi
Smash Hero
abcool
Smash Ace
Prodigal son has returned.