EVERYONE ELSE IS TOO SLOW-- Sonic Match-up Thread 01/18/15 GAME AND WATCH! WATCH HIM GAME! And stuff

[iSpiN]

I know there is already a post about the Sheik matchup but I'm finding it difficult to deal with Sheik's aerial pressure, approaching with Side B and Down B is almost impossible too due to her needles... Any advice?

Bait needles to HA. Stay in the air when far and create good pressure.

Also grab more.

 

[Camalange]

I still don't know what wectoring is.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I still don't know what wectoring is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO8frGPnyJw&feature=youtu.be

That, I think????

wario has always been dumb tho.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CJTw8sTEeU

 

[Camalange]

Well, ****.

I remember the forbidden technique lmao

What a character.

 

[iSpiN]

So guys, I think Wario is our current worst matchup by far. Does Sonic have anything other than HA, Spring, or Dair to reliably get around bite?

 

[shinhed-echi]

Heck, yeah. Wario is a nightmare.
All I can think of, but I need NO lag, and a C-Stick, is to Side+B at him, do a short jump over his head, and BAM Bair.

But again, I really need to time it exactly, and a C-Stick. I'm skipping on Sonic until I pick up the Wii U version.

 

[Camalange]

Is bite any more of a threat than it was in Brawl?

 

[Funkermonster]

Advice against Captain Falcon?

 

[kataridragon]

Ugh I officially hate the sheik matchup. The fact that her f-throw combos to f-air at low to mid percentage drives me crazy. It's like you can't block when your worried about needles cause grab is worse. You dodge after the throw and you could get punished when you land.

It's a setup, mind game, and ko setup in like 2 steps.

Grrrrr. Sorry had to rant a little. That crap is frustrating.

 

[ROOOOY!]

So guys, I think Wario is our current worst matchup by far. Does Sonic have anything other than HA, Spring, or Dair to reliably get around bite?

Wario is trash.

Advice against Captain Falcon?

Falcon is garbs.

Kay I'll stop now. He's still got the brawl problem of not being able to approach with well...anything. Just don't follow him into the air (unless he's offstage), and don't rush him down. I spend most of the match pretty much stationary tossing out ftilts and punishing/shield grabbing safe in the knowledge I don't really need to approach. Guess it's not really Sonic specific advice, but meh. I haven't played any high level falcons though so I could be talking out my arse.

I've played the match up from both sides quite extensively, and think Jiggz does well against Sonic. Maybe it's just cos I know how to beat a Sonic, but idk. Also, not one that should strictly be difficult, but I can't stand Sonic v Megaman. I don't find any other projectile that poses Sonic a problem. Just all his. Even his customs are dumb.

 

[Katy Parry]

Hi. I'm having a lot of trouble with Sonic. I play Zelda and Peach. Are there any tips?

 

[kataridragon]

Let's see. I played a defensive Ike today. He was playing very safe. My word of advice is don't spin dash to much and go for psych outs more. Spin dashing then jump canceling leaves you way vulnerable.

Anybody got tips for making the spin dash jump cancel less risky? Or should I just use it sparingly.
Ike's up air is catching me a lot after the jc.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

SDJ early and double jump out backwards of it; SDJ to HA; use VSDJ; Spinshot; don't SDJ and go straight through their shield and then turnaround (works best with SC rather than SD); Spring out of SDJ; Spring out of Spinshot..

 

[kataridragon]

SDJ early and double jump out backwards of it; SDJ to HA; use VSDJ; Spinshot; don't SDJ and go straight through their shield and then turnaround (works best with SC rather than SD); Spring out of SDJ; Spring out of Spinshot..

Ill practice this. Im just so damn disrespectful. I will just spin dash jc up air expecting the hit. I really need to work on being more unpredictable and less assuming. I guess I just rail people in for glory and i have just gotten bad habits. Its not like I didnt beat the guy but he did play very defensive and I was just falling right into his plan. I should play him more. good matches though.

I was also surprised how safe ike could be using his aerials. I would see him short hop then do a neutral air then fast fall and be safe. I thought that was odd. Why cant I back air fast fall to safety? lol

This is only like the second good player ive faced since launch so I was a bit surprised.

 

[Wa_Black]

So when is sonic punishable? I play Luigi. Sometimes I can hit him sometimes I can't. It feels like sonic can decide depending on whether or not he's feeling like taking damage or not.

 

[saviorslegacy]

The Sheik boards are discussing the Sonic match up here: http://smashboards.com/threads/ninja-clan-here-we-stand-sheik-match-up-thread.371918/page-3
You input is appreciated.

 

[Gregory2590]

Can someone explain fighting Megaman? It's REALLY annoying how everything(namely his buster shots) out prioritizes his spindashes.

 

[NotLiquid]

Mega Man is mostly going to try to keep Sonic at a distance since he wins the long range game. He also has tools to handle basically all of Sonic's specials so against him it's a pretty bad means of an approach as a miscalculated one could easily lead to a nasty punish. You're going to want to get in close, but be careful of getting caught off guard with his DTilt. I imagine Sonic is better off airborne for that match up since Mega Man doesn't really have a lot to answer for Sonic's UAir, though I'm pretty sure Mega Man's BAir is better than ours.

 

[Lizam]

Played atleast 15 matches against a Yoshi main last night. He was destroying me, especially on battlefield. I found that Yoshi manuvers way too quick in the air for me to land consistent aerials, and his tilts/jabs come out quicker than ours. Anyone have any Yoshi MU advice?

Cheers

 

[FluxWaveZ]

So I'm not all that great, and I'm relatively new to Smash in general, but am I crazy for thinking that the Mii Gunner MU is crazy for Sonic, in a bad way? The screen pollution is overwhelming, leaving Sonic's Homing Attack as the only really reliable means of approach I found. This means of approach, though, is eliminated when Mii Gunner is underneath a platform and, curiously enough, Sonic's Homing Attack aims straight for Mii Gunner's Flame Pillar.

There haven't been any characters that left me feeling so helpless and, against a keep-away Mii Gunner, I had to opt to wait for them to approach me instead of the other way around, and that was difficult too.

 

[infomon]

Mii Gunner is brutal. In general, as a character. I haven't tried the matchup with Sonic specifically, but my guess would be it's awful.

I was on the Mii Gunner forum today and there was a pretty good post from someone who described Gunner's big weakness to be that nothing they do is safe on shield. (IMO that means they'll probably spend the entire matchup hopping around shooting projectiles and avoiding direct combat... yipes!) How Sonic's shield-pressure, and manoeuverability for getting around large obnoxious zones?

Probably not the best matchup.. but idk who else to recommend either.

 

[Camalange]

I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. Sometimes Sonic is able to shield and run and get past things no problem but outside neutral he gets walled out really effectively by ****. You have to get in and stay there, otherwise it's bad news bears.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

How Sonic's shield-pressure, and manoeuverability for getting around large obnoxious zones?

Maneuverability is really not good, from what I experienced. The "hopping around shooting projectiles and avoiding direct combat" is pretty much exactly how it went against the one Mii Gunner I went up against, and none of Sonic's spin dashes are reliable ways to get in due to all that explosive stuff that outprioritizes them, and even the Homing Attack isn't because of the Flame Pillar.

As for shield pressure, I believe Sonic's is pretty good, usually. I think it does depend a lot on his spin dashes and Homing Attack, however, but I'm not sure.

I guess it's like the above mentions: It's a pain, but Sonic needs to be very methodical in his means of approach, while walking, running, shielding and slowly getting closer to Mii Gunner that way. Once up close, that's when Sonic can finally do what he does, but he needs to make sure he stays there, because it'll all return to being a big disadvantage if Mii Gunner successfully gets away.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Haven't played a competant one, but I can imagine Gunner being trouble.

Lucario is still a ****. Not as much, but yeah.

 

[JFyst]

OK, so this is horrid, we are just randomly posting MU advice in this general thread and this is just wrong, here's what I think we should do, Roy's our boy mentioned before other threads are doing weekly match-up advice.

That sounds much more organized and will probably maximize our collective thoughts on the match-up also allowing us to not only easily go back to look at the specific match-ups we care about, but also to add on to those match-ups if we discover something later.

Only thing is we would probably need a specific person to start the "Official MU Discussion for (Insert Name Here)" I'd do it myself but I don't think anyone would listen to a random tell them" This is where we talk about sonic vs character X"

 

[Camalange]

We keep saying it but... It's matter of just doing it.

Personally I know I don't have the time for it.

 

[RedrappeR]

I made the thread like this because that's how the SRK threads are usually run for SFIV. Maybe individual match-up threads are better I guess. But I feel like they clutter the boards. You could always do a search with the character name, but if that's too difficult, chill. Lets do individual threads.

 

[JFyst]

The problem with this type of thread is that everyone is all over the place and whenever someone talks about their experiences with said character we quickly change the topic before we get any real help with it.

 

[Elaith]

This is my post from another thread. I cataloged a lot of what has been said in order to make it easier to flesh out and reference what has been said as well as to advance Sonic play.

I gathered the information I found around the board since the game's launch if it helps any in terms of creating a catalog of Sonic's capabilities. For the record, this is all you guys, and not myself, and I apologize for any inconsistencies, but I saw a post about Sonic players' disorganized approach, and thought it might help out a little bit.


Sonic Strategies

Spoiler

- Up Air, Forward Smash, and Up Smash are reliable kill moves.
- Forward and Back Throw can kill at high percentages.
- Back Air is useful for both edgeguarding, and as a kill move.
- Dash Attack can be an effective edge guarding move.
- With proper approach, Down Air is an effective meteor.
- Baiting is the name of the game, though with characters that have an effective projectile game, such as Ness, you want to stay inside and keep up the pressure.
- Spin Dash is good for baiting games and can be left with a jump for aerial combos.
- Homing Attack is a good attack for disrupting some fighters, and can be followed effectively with a Spin Dash.
- Down Smash can be effective for edge guarding.
- Spin Dash can be canceled into a shield. Spin Charge cannot.
- A Spinshot can be done in the air by holding (or fully charging) Spin Dash then quickly hitting Attack or Jump upon release.
- A Spinshot can be done in the air by quickly charging Spin Charge then quickly hitting Attack or Jump upon release.
- A Spinshot can be done on the ground by holding (or fully charging) Spin Dash then quickly hitting Attack or Jump upon release.
- A Spin Dash Cancelled Grab can be done by performing a Spin Dash while running, returning the stick to the neutral position as quickly as possible, and immediately pressing Grab. This is a quick and effective way to do a moving grab.
- Using the default moves is the (by far) preferred moveset, but alternate moves can create changes in the playstyle.


Alternate Moves
- Burning Spin Dash can give the ability to safely clash with stronger projectiles in exchange for no hop and limited follow-up potential.
- Double Spring can be used to save your partner if you happen to misspace a spring drop to restore Up B, in exchange for lower damage and knockback.
- Stomp can offer a consistent spike in exchange for removing homing attack versatility.
- Surprise Attack offers more safety if you miss an attack and speed of recovery in exchange for range, power, and increased lag.
- Hammer Spin Dash offers burial with a huge leap in exchange for mobility and versatility.
- Springing Headbutt offers a hitbox in exchange for riskier play, low damage, less damage than the Spring Jump, and the spring doesn't stick to the ground.
- Auto-Spin Charge offers consistency of the Spin Charge in exchange for a lower charge speed.
- Gravitational Charge offers better edge guarding in exchange for your moves being telegraphed due to changes in animation and sound.

Strategies versus Specific Fighters

Spoiler

Ness
-Stay grounded.
-Down throwing Ness off-stage makes him vulnerable.
-Grabs and forward tilts on the ground. If you end up in the air, your safest bet is to be under Ness with an Up Air.


Diddy
- Up Smash can take Diddy out of Side and Up B.
- Neutral Air to apply pressure to a shield.
- Use Spring to escape as needed.


Bowser
- You can combo on Up Throw due to his weight.


King Dedede
- Fully charged spindash will return Gordos.


Little Mac
- Get him in the air and juggle.
- If he spams counter, abuse grabs and throws.
- Focus on spacing.


Lucario
- Punish and kill as quickly as possible.
- Chase down the early kill, even if you have to go offstage to do so. Down Air Meteor can help here.


Lucina
- Homing attack can disrupt her flow of play.


Mega Man
- Up Air will help Sonic immensely for the battle. Keep the battle aerial.


Rosalina and Luma
- If she throws the Luma at you, close for a grab.


Sheik
- Watch out for needle camping and be prepared to shield on your approach.
- Grabs are an effective punish.


Toon Link
- Approach at an angle.
- Juggle.
- Pressure. Leave no room for a projectile game.


Wario
- Homing Attack functions well as a punish.

 

[ROOOOY!]

It can all be centralised into one thread, not making individual ones. Brawl's version worked well, the thread title and OP can just be updated every time a match up has run it's course of discussion, and in the OP parameters can be set ( this matchup has been discussed between X and X post, and a brief summary or even key quotes readily available on OP) I mean I'd be happy to do it, but my only internet outlet is on this Wii U gamepad, my laptop is nigh on useless, and my tablet has been in for repairs since forever.

I can start one, it might be a bit threadbare in terms of imagery and such, but I'd keep the ball rolling at least. Dat ok?

/johns

 

[Funkermonster]

Sonic's chances against? Even though I main both characters, I don't really have the experience to have an opinion on this matchup. As Sonic, just about every Greninja I faced so far was pretty bad, and as Greninja I have faced only a few good Sonic players. What do you guys think?

Also y experience though, and are easy peasy lemon squeezy.

 

[NotLiquid]

Greninja's Shadow Sneak mixup being patched out makes him a significantly lesser threat against Sonic as it kills one of his most reliable approaches/defenses. His USmash, the most powerful tool he had, was also completely gutted so he's now more punishable and less able to kill with it. He still has some respectable combos and mobility options but I'd say it used to be an even matchup pre-patch while now it errs in Sonic's favor.

 

[Funkermonster]

Greninja's Shadow Sneak mixup being patched out makes him a significantly lesser threat against Sonic as it kills one of his most reliable approaches/defenses. His USmash, the most powerful tool he had, was also completely gutted so he's now more punishable and less able to kill with it. He still has some respectable combos and mobility options but I'd say it used to be an even matchup pre-patch while now it errs in Sonic's favor.

I disagree, the Shadow Sneak cancel never was that great to begin with and people would have adjusted to it overtime anyway, so that nerf is very minor, and that's not enough to automatically place it in Sonic's favor . If anything, SS has actually been more buffed than nerfed, as it now moves significantly faster and has less endlag, becoming better kill move for him OoS. And even though Usmash has more endlag, Dsmash was buffed in damage and knockback to take its place. Killing people is a lot harder than before as Greninja overall, but I'd say that's his only huge weakness and is otherwise still a strong character, save for mediocre approach options but that's about it. When you take all this into account, Greninja is only a little weaker than before and the Usmash is really the only favorable nerf for Sonic that makes an impact, and he even has a couple of tiny buffs to compensate. You still have to respect his water shurikens (one of the best projectiles in the game) and other moves, especially as a character who barely even has a projectile.

 

[NotLiquid]

I can't really respect the Shurikens as much as I used to considering they got nerfed with more ending lag. They're still generally good but being slower in execution is a pretty bad nerf to have going up against Sonic as that means more opportunities to capitalize upon. As far as I'm concerned that's what generally makes me think Sonic has the slight advantage as he has a much easier time being up in his face. DSmash might be buffed in power but it has less knockback growth, doesn't have nearly the applicability that the USmash used to have, and DACUS doesn't exist for the latter anymore to remedy that. On top of that his aerials aren't reliable kills anymore and Hydro Pump windboxes got crippled for edgeguarding purposes, which Sonic was pretty susceptible to.

I'll give you that Shadow Sneak got buffed generally but a deal of Greninja's options for Sonic feel like they got kneecapped. Being a character with good mobility/damage racking but incredibly iffy kill options was a big reason why Sonic was in the mids in Brawl, and even though Greninja's still a really solid character it's clear that he got knocked down a peg, even though I feel Greninja is still good enough to hold his own for the most of the part.

 

[RedrappeR]

I'm Gonna just collate it. I'll start the discussion topic.

The people above discussing Greninja-- So I feel like that should be our intro. So Greninja this week-- on Sunday I'll post the collated advice.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Can I suggest a section on customs that might be appropriate for people who like that jank and also recommended stages/stages to avoid for each character?

 

[Gregory2590]

Baiting a Dair or if they're playing with fire, a counter is pretty fun on them. Otherwise, I haven't faced too many good Greninjas. I want to input something about SS, but again, not enough Greninja vs. experience.

 

[Camalange]

Me vs. Greninja irl

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10204363837250088

 

[infomon]

lol rekt by facebook

 

[Camalange]

lol rekt by facebook

Can you not watch? The link said it should be viewable to anyone even if they're not on Facebook.