EVERYONE ELSE IS TOO SLOW-- Sonic Match-up Thread 01/18/15 GAME AND WATCH! WATCH HIM GAME! And stuff

[Reksho]

If both of you are okay with it, please record it for us to see!

 

[Camalange]

I'm actually quite curious myself which way the salt will pour.

This is the most backstory I've seen go into an online match, lol.

 

[Alphicans]

We could stream it. My streamer would love that for sure.

 

[kataridragon]

I'm not good at streaming. Feel free to as long as it doesn't lag. I will record it.

2 stock, 8 min, random omega?

2 out of 3?
3 out of 5?
5 out of 9?

Or best 2 sets of 2 out of 3 out of 3.
Lol I hope that made sense.

Or we can just play for like an hour.

I accepted your friend request as well.

 

[Alphicans]

We can play a bo7. We'll play APEX ruleset. My streamer will stream and will host the room, so I'll probably have to get you to add him then. Usually there isn't much lag, but if lag is a problem we can bail out and just use your recording.

 

[kataridragon]

I'm gonna record for me reguardless. Ok I'll accept him. Apex rules is fine. I'm not sure what the exact rule set is for apex.

I'm pretty sure it's 2 stock, 8 minutes. As for stages idk what is legal besides omegas. How would we stage strike or go about doing that?

 

[Camalange]

Report back, soldiers.

 

[Funkermonster]

Don't wanna keep you from Little Mac, but just a quick MU question against Wario: What do you guys do to avoid his Bite Moves and his Bike? I didn't use Sonic at my last tourney like I wanted to, a great Wario player scared the crap outta me since I dunno the Matchup against him very well, and Sonic's lack of a projectile prompted me to use Megaman and Greninja instead, and I still lost... That command grab...

 

[IWinToLose]

Things I do against Wario:

His bite is very good against Sonic. If you expect him to bite in reaction to your approach, either jump before you reach him with SD/SC and go for the spring, homing attack, or cross up to wrack up a little damage or to reset back to neutral. Of course there are many situations you can still use SD/SC before he can bite you (after he tries an aerial/whiffs a ground attack, after a cross up and a baited bite in the wrong direction, etc). Aerial spin dashes are also not a terrible idea. Finally, if you are at the right range where you can react in time, if you see the bite and you're still charging, wait until Wario is forced to close his mouth and punish.

As for the bike, make sure to use SD shield cancels and dash cancel shields against it. Don't try to hit him out of it as he's approaching you unless you're confident he won't do the wheelie. You can try to hit him out of it if he's turning the bike around behind you or as he's going away from you. Let's say he runs into you with the bike and you shield it. He turns around near the edge of the stage. You can safely attempt a dash up smash where he is. If he does try the turn around, you will hit him. If he jumps off or rides off the edge, you are safe still. Keep in mind that most good Wario players are aware of this weakness and tend to jump off the bike much earlier or jump off after you shield it. Likewise, if you mistime the USmash you may get hit by the bike's turning around hit box (near the back wheel).

 

[kataridragon]

Well my next good day to play is Sunday.... Since fro is almost over.

 

[Camalange]

Did the grudge match happen yet?

 

[Alphicans]

No I was in that huge online tournament today. But I think I proved my point. I beat 6wx in bracket. Connection was good.

Matches should be uploaded

 

[Camalange]

That sounds really funny.

 

[Alphicans]

Why does that sound funny?

 

[kataridragon]

I played in the tourney as well. You guys got further than I did. But hey don't delete me off your friends list maybe we can play sometime.

I was actually quite upset over my loss. I wasn't feeling it. Wifi_warrior sent me to losers and I threw a match. :/

I'm having a cruddy day, I had bad matches, my samus figure broke, and my arm hurts from playing to much games.

I'm taking a game break for a week. #saltinwounds

 

[Kuraudo]

I still think Sonic vs. Little Mac is an even fight. I just think I know how to fight Little Mac better than 6WX does.

Though this IS WiFi. Real proud of how you did, I'll say it here too, Alphicans. Please come around to the weeklies here so I can fight you offline again and see how I do.

 

[Camalange]

Why does that sound funny?

I've been hearing about this wifi tourney and partaking in it sounded like it'd be miserable, so having all these results come in amuses me.

I still think Sonic vs. Little Mac is an even fight. I just think I know how to fight Little Mac better than 6WX does.

Though this IS WiFi. Real proud of how you did, I'll say it here too, Alphicans. Please come around to the weeklies here so I can fight you offline again and see how I do.

And mostly to this point. I am legitimately curious how it played out and how you both carried yourself in the matches, but I can only hold the merit to a certain degree when it's an online tourney. It's not to discredit you, it's just the nature of the whole situation I find funny.

I played in the tourney as well. You guys got further than I did. But hey don't delete me off your friends list maybe we can play sometime.

I was actually quite upset over my loss. I wasn't feeling it. Wifi_warrior sent me to losers and I threw a match. :/

I'm having a cruddy day, I had bad matches, my samus figure broke, and my arm hurts from playing to much games.

I'm taking a game break for a week. #saltinwounds

Don't be too hard on yourself over a wifi tourney... Or tournies in general. That's how you get better.

The irony of losing to someone named "Wifi-warrior" though lmao

Although I still want to see you play Alphicans for purely selfish reasons...

 

[Alphicans]

By no means does me beating 6WX on wifi prove anything, but like LM just has a lot of anti-sonic stuff that basically no other characters really have, and I think my sets with the 2 sonics I had to vs showcase these properties.

 

[Camalange]

By no means does me beating 6WX on wifi prove anything, but like LM just has a lot of anti-sonic stuff that basically no other characters really have, and I think my sets with the 2 sonics I had to vs showcase these properties.

I think that's all fair. Still, props on doing so.

Like I said, I'm genuinely interested to see how it played out.

 

[kataridragon]

I am gonna be hard on myself. I'm not saying I'm a top top player but I am not a scrub and I feel like I played like one.

Online or not I was a disgrace upon my family. (Commits Seppuku)

 

[Reksho]

By no means does me beating 6WX on wifi prove anything, but like LM just has a lot of anti-sonic stuff that basically no other characters really have, and I think my sets with the 2 sonics I had to vs showcase these properties.

I watched your matches with 6WX and really enjoyed them. Your timing with abusing your super armor is top notch. You also really know how to space yourself well when you see a spindash coming by just increasing the distance and patiently let Sonic come to you. I'm a bit more of a believer now of Mac standing a chance against Sonic but I do think that 6WX just doesn't have much experience fighting Mac.

Still, you played very well.

 

[IWinToLose]

In theory, the ping from wifi should do a few things to a Sonic vs Lil Mac match up:

1. Makes it harder to punish Sonic's approach as Little Mac
2. Makes it harder for Sonic to punish smashes
3. Makes it harder for Sonic or react to smashes, jabs, and tilts during approach
4. Makes it harder for Sonic to land after a block/dodged SD/SC against Little Mac (this does go both ways though as it makes it harder for Little Mac to punish Sonic's landing too)
5. Makes it harder for Sonic to tech various low % low horizontal knock backs from Little Mac
6. Makes it harder for Sonic to escape properly from grabs near the edge (you will often have extra inputs due to the ping and do some random action out of a grab break)

It is good to see Alphicans do well against Sonic in the wifi tourney but in my opinion, ping will help Little Mac more than Sonic. Some other good matches to watch would be the matches from Shi-gaming. There was a set or two with Sonic vs Little Mac.

Also, does anyone have a link to the match between Alphican and 6WX?

 

[Gregory2590]

So in other words, it makes it harder for everyone?

(which is, you know, how laggy matches affect people)

 

[Alphicans]

I can't do ALOT of things on wifi that I can do offline. I could come up with 6 ways sonic benefits in the match-up due to ping, but why would I do that, it's useless.

 

[Reksho]

Also, does anyone have a link to the match between Alphican and 6WX?

http://www.twitch.tv/events2compete/b/612903449?t=8h25m000s

 

[IWinToLose]

http://www.twitch.tv/events2compete/b/612903449?t=8h25m000s

Thanks for the link

I don't understand why 6WX kept going for the NAir on descent and doing other non auto cancel aerials leading to about 200% in free damage on him over the matches. He also missed at least 3 kill opportunities that I counted (not including gimps).

Nonetheless, Alphican definitely played well against 6WX and showed many tools Little Mac has against Sonic. In particular, I was very impressed with all the Ftilts that caught 6WX along with USmashing aerial SC's. As for Wrath, he definitely had a different, even more reckless playstyle than 6WX o.o.

I will say that Alphican definitely has good reaction speed, punishing many changes in aerial descent paths, recognizing all of Sonic's different but similar looking moves and punishing accordingly (how many Homing Attacks did he punish? I lost count...) and reacting very well to gimp attempts. Most Little Macs do not demonstrate this ability.

 

[Camalange]

Thanks for the link

I don't understand why 6WX kept going for the NAir on descent and doing other non auto cancel aerials leading to about 200% in free damage on him over the matches. He also missed at least 3 kill opportunities that I counted (not including gimps).

Nonetheless, Alphican definitely played well against 6WX and showed many tools Little Mac has against Sonic. In particular, I was very impressed with all the Ftilts that caught 6WX along with USmashing aerial SC's. As for Wrath, he definitely had a different, even more reckless playstyle than 6WX o.o.

I will say that Alphican definitely has good reaction speed, punishing many changes in aerial descent paths, recognizing all of Sonic's different but similar looking moves and punishing accordingly (how many Homing Attacks did he punish? I lost count...) and reacting very well to gimp attempts. Most Little Macs do not demonstrate this ability.

Agreed. It was mostly the nairs, not the HA he was getting punished for. Like, he'd keep going for these falling Nairs that worked like ONCE then every other time he got super armor KO'd for it lol. There was a point during the FD match where 6WX just kept whiffing aerials into the ground and just allowing Alph to wrack up free damage. He ASC'd into Usmash a lot which cost him the set.

I'm definitely taking notes, but I can't help but feel 6WX made some careless decisions and Alph really capitalized on them, which is good. Airdodging into the ground so close to Mac, for example… Missed gimp opportunities, etc.

His use of FSJ though was pretty interesting, and I liked his use of spring when Mac would respawn. It's a trick that worked well on Olimar (especially top platform of BF) but I see the utility of against Mac due to his limited air options and landing options.

LMAO that final Halberd kill though. ****ing funny.

btw how safe is Mac's Up-B out of shield? Like, start-up wise.

I really want to play you at Apex now though.

 

[Reksho]

btw how safe is Mac's Up-B out of shield? Like, start-up wise.

It's comparable to ZSS' Up-B meaning your opponent needs to be pretty close to you to suck them into the vortex. Safest scenario to do this would be an attack with much ending lag that hit your shield. It starts up instantly but is incredibly punishable when missed.

 

[IWinToLose]

Agreed. It was mostly the nairs, not the HA he was getting punished for. Like, he'd keep going for these falling Nairs that worked like ONCE then every other time he got super armor KO'd for it lol. There was a point during the FD match where 6WX just kept whiffing aerials into the ground and just allowing Alph to wrack up free damage. He ASC'd into Usmash a lot which cost him the set.

I'm definitely taking notes, but I can't help but feel 6WX made some careless decisions and Alph really capitalized on them, which is good. Airdodging into the ground so close to Mac, for example… Missed gimp opportunities, etc.

His use of FSJ though was pretty interesting, and I liked his use of spring when Mac would respawn. It's a trick that worked well on Olimar (especially top platform of BF) but I see the utility of against Mac due to his limited air options and landing options.

LMAO that final Halberd kill though. ****ing funny.

btw how safe is Mac's Up-B out of shield? Like, start-up wise.

I really want to play you at Apex now though.

Wrath kept spamming homing attack which Alphican kept punishing. 6WX didn't use it as much. I think next time 6WX will realize not to try descending aerials and to focus more on simply landing and the neutral game (which IMO Sonic has an advantage in).

Mac's Up-B on block is incredibly unsafe but it does come out fast. I'd venture to guess that it's faster than 10 frames for the first hit. However, most Little Macs won't use this against grounded opponents but against falling opponents. As most people, while falling, except a dash attack, USmash, Pivot Ftilt, or even other attacks (FSmash, Jab, UTilt, etc), they rarely expect such a high vertical attack like Little Mac's UAir. This is a bit cheesy but it is effective in catching your opponent off guard sometimes netting that surprise KO you need.

Also, a point to note about Sonic vs Little Mac is that Little Mac excels at hitting characters as they try to land and still remain safe (usually). Sonic, unfortunately, is forced to land a lot without the ability to threaten Little Mac as he's landing.

Also, the spring thing is pretty good against Little Macs. A trick I like to do is to stand right underneath Mac when he respawns. I then wait for him to fast fall onto me and immediately spring when this happens. Most people won't just fall into your spring if it's already there, but most people will try to fall on your head to hit you if you stand right beneath them. As such, you just spring them up into the air. Against characters like Little Mac with terrible aerials, he will lose his invincibility and be open for a follow up from Sonic if you pull this off.

 

[Alphicans]

Sorry but did you just say sonic wins the neutral game? No dude, LM has the strongest neutral game in smash4, rivaled only by sheik.

 

[Kuraudo]

Sorry but did you just say sonic wins the neutral game? No dude, LM has the strongest neutral game in smash4, rivaled only by sheik.

Sonic's neutral game is good due to his approaches and the multitude of options for them. However, outside of Sonic's FTilt and Jab, Little Mac's entire movepool is meant to be able to outbox the other in the close range.

Sonic's is good, but Little Mac's is godlike when played right.

 

[Camalange]

Wrath kept spamming homing attack which Alphican kept punishing. 6WX didn't use it as much. I think next time 6WX will realize not to try descending aerials and to focus more on simply landing

Ah, my bad. I didn't watch Wrath's.

But yes, I agree with you up to there.

Mac's Up-B on block is incredibly unsafe but it does come out fast. I'd venture to guess that it's faster than 10 frames for the first hit. However, most Little Macs won't use this against grounded opponents but against falling opponents. As most people, while falling, except a dash attack, USmash, Pivot Ftilt, or even other attacks (FSmash, Jab, UTilt, etc), they rarely expect such a high vertical attack like Little Mac's UAir. This is a bit cheesy but it is effective in catching your opponent off guard sometimes netting that surprise KO you need.

I know it's awful on block, but I wondered how good OoS it was in comparison to characters who actually use it, like Shulk, Marth, Lucina, etc.

Also, a point to note about Sonic vs Little Mac is that Little Mac excels at hitting characters as they try to land and still remain safe (usually). Sonic, unfortunately, is forced to land a lot without the ability to threaten Little Mac as he's landing.

Sonic's landing options are also pure ass so that doesn't help.

 

[Reksho]

So even though Sonic's landing options aren't good, what ARE his best options regardless? I can't think of anything other than Nair and a high Dair with autocancel. Perhaps just landing with nothing and using Sonic's speed to get the hell away from danger?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I can't do ALOT of things on wifi that I can do offline. I could come up with 6 ways sonic benefits in the match-up due to ping, but why would I do that, it's useless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD3ez6rXRtM

 

[Sonic Orochi]

So even though Sonic's landing options aren't good, what ARE his best options regardless? I can't think of anything other than Nair and a high Dair with autocancel. Perhaps just landing with nothing and using Sonic's speed to get the hell away from danger?

Basically: double jump lol (if available), Spring+Dair, HA (if available), Dair at mid height, Nair, FF Fair, autocancel Uair/Dair, land and shield (anytime).

Also, if you use a grounded Spring, be sure to use Dair to hit it again and regain your double jump and usage of specials, increasing the landing options by a lot.

 

[XCounter]

Which characters do you guys think give Sonic trouble? I'm a Ness main looking for a secondary to cover difficult matchups, and Sonic is one of them.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

IMO Rosalina, Sheik, Lucario, Luigi and Megaman at least all do well.

 

[IWinToLose]

Sheik, Diddy Kong, Zamus, and Pikachu are all quite good against Sonic.

More characters that do well include:
Luigi
Falco
ROB
Pit/Dark Pit
Mii Brawler
Fox

Characters that do poorly:
Ganondorf
Lucina/Marth
Dr Mario
Little Mac
Bowser Junior
Donkey Kong

 

[XCounter]

I've decided to take Pikachu and Sonic further along with Ness. Thanks for your help guys, you'll probably catch me around trying to learn new things.

 

[FullMoon]

Hey blue hedgehogs, the blue frogs are going to discuss the Sonic MU, so any input you guys can give us would be great: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...-rosalina-olimar-sonic-2-2-2-9.369356/page-10

Just don't go too fast or else not even ninjas will be able to catch up to you guys.