EVERYONE ELSE IS TOO SLOW-- Sonic Match-up Thread 01/18/15 GAME AND WATCH! WATCH HIM GAME! And stuff

[kataridragon]

The thing about the smash attack option from mac is the recovery frames. If you just fake out a mac and he commits to any smash you can run up and start some damage during the smash attacks recovery. In your case Zapp it would seem as though if a Sonic were to simply make you second guess his movements and intentions you would be at an extreme disadvantage.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The thing about the smash attack option from mac is the recovery frames. If you just fake out a mac and he commits to any smash you can run up and start some damage during the smash attacks recovery. In your case Zapp it would seem as though if a Sonic were to simply make you second guess his movements and intentions you would be at an extreme disadvantage.

Yes, which is why I stress that you need to keep Mac guessing. Whether you come in on him with a spin dash, aerial, or homing attack, he'll find a defense against it if you keep trying that over and over. However, baiting out smash attacks from Mac carries it's own risk. The only one that has significant lag on par with most of the cast is his up smash. That one is highly punishable. But if you pop into training mode with Mac, you'll see how fast he can act out of his tilts and smashes. You'll notice he's very speedy in that he has a low amount of recovery frames. Another outlier about his character is his dodge roll. I've failed to find a list from months ago that had frame data on character rolls (we used it to compare to previous smash games). His dodge roll ends sooner and has less vulnerability frames than the rest of the cast. Macs will use this to get past moves and projectiles they can't safely jump over or punch through. Sometimes when I feel like I'm out of options on a match, I'll take the risk of dodge rolling toward my opponent to mix thing up in my approach. It's never a good idea to do that in general, but it is a somewhat better idea in Mac's case.

Furthermore, a big weakness for Mac is his low grab range. As it should be when you're trying to grip something while wearing boxing gloves. This means that he can only shield grab the most poorly spaced attacks. Unfortunately for Sonic, he doesn't have a ton of range from the air. Nevertheless, it's a weakness you'll notice when you fight him. Even if he does grab you, all he has is an above average pummel, and a dthrow that may combo into up smash or aerial side b. Just double jump to avoid a followup. None of his other throws are noteworthy, since they can't kill.

I hope I'm providing sufficient information for taking on the champ. After all, I'm only lurking these boards to learn how to deal with Sonic, so it seemed only fair that I give my input. :D

 

[Reksho]

Even if he does grab you, all he has is an above average pummel, and a dthrow that may combo into up smash or aerial side b. Just double jump to avoid a followup. None of his other throws are noteworthy, since they can't kill.

I do want to add here that Mac also can up B into the down throw. You should be extremely careful of this as this CAN kill at high percentages. The easiest way to avoid this is to just DI away (right or left) from the throw but do not keep in a straight line above Mac, even while double jumping.

 

[Funkermonster]

Also something worth mentioning: Dtilt > KO Punch is a true combo and WILL kill around 30%.

 

[Camalange]

Nair combos into an aerial KO Punch as well.

 

[Alphicans]

My take on this match-up is basically if you can't grab mac you're going to lose pretty hard. Sonic IS really good at getting grabs, so you should at least get a couple on him, but then again LM has the frame data/neutral game to just not get grabbed. Personally I think mac wins this m/u (one of sonics few losing match-ups), but calling it even is probably the safest bet, especially since there are really hard stage CPs for you guys.

Also I think if you're in the mentality that sonic>>>mac you're definitely missing something and haven't played a good mac yet.

 

[Camalange]

If you think Mac wins this match-up then you haven't played a good Sonic.

Just as much as some of the boards are underestimating Mac's ground game (they are) then you're severely underestimating just how devastating Sonic's options are against Mac once he gets a grab, or gets him anywhere off the stage for a second.

Someone said something in regards to punishing Little Mac's cooldown on his moves. That's an awful idea, regardless of how fast Sonic is, even though that would normally be his go-to.

Little Mac's move plus in so many situations that even if you think you could get a punish, he'll most likely get a super armor move out in time (which he has plenty of) and eat your ****.

But regardless of however effective Mac's ground game is, Sonic has one of the safest options to get Mac offstage with one of the safest edgeguards in the game. It's not like Mac can really force Sonic to approach either, and like you said, if anyone's going to effectively grab Mac... It's Sonic.

But in one hand, there are a million awful Little Macs for every mediocre Sonic... I could see the possibility of it leaning more towards even, but I haven't seen enough of a display, so I can only base this off what I've seen and experienced myself.

 

[kataridragon]

I guess I haven't played a good mac.

I'm not sure if your talking about me saying that you can punish Macs "cooldown" but you certainly can as long as your not in blockstun. I guarantee that non of macs attacks don't have some recovery. Good timing and good baiting.

 

[Camalange]

I guess I haven't played a good mac.

I'm not sure if your talking about me saying that you can punish Macs "cooldown" but you certainly can as long as your not in blockstun. I guarantee that non of macs attacks don't have some recovery. Good timing and good baiting.

Very specific moves, yeah, but you can say "good baiting" and it'll hold as much as weight as a Mac saying "don't get grabbed".

The fact is with Mac, it's much riskier to try and rely on punishing the cooldown on his moves. You certainly can... But you can say that about any match-up. Mac has enough tools to bait you as well. His moves are fast. They have super armor. They kill. You can't disrespect that.

 

[kataridragon]

I'm not disrespecting Macs attacks. Maybe my statement seems to blanket.

Let me put it this way. I play macs just about the same way I play the rest of the cast, just more cautious.

......, even though that seems blanket as well. You get what I mean.

I do agree this matchup seems to far in Sonics favor. Matchup "feels" like 7-3. IMO

 

[Reksho]

I guess I haven't played a good mac.

I'm not sure if your talking about me saying that you can punish Macs "cooldown" but you certainly can as long as your not in blockstun. I guarantee that non of macs attacks don't have some recovery. Good timing and good baiting.

It's true that Mac has some cooldown on his smash attacks (particularly his up smash). However, whenever a Mac misses a smash, he can start mashing his extremely fast jab. Whenever you try to go for a punish thinking the cooldown of his smash will be enough, you'd be surprised to see yourself flying away by his lightning fast jabs.

 

[Auroura]

Don't have much to offer in these matches. Not sure if it's appropriate for me to post this here since it's currently Little Mac discussion, but I'm having some difficulty vs Lucario and Captain Falcon. I think the major issue right now is that I don't fully understand how to approach people short of Spin dash or spin charge in, maybe a spin shot here or there. Can anyone provide a bit more insight on how to get in on people and maintain the pace/momentum of the match? It feels bad that I have to ask this question when playing Sonic who is a character with a lot of rushdown. I just feel like I'm not optimizing the character's potential.

 

[kataridragon]

I would also like to have a new focus on C. Falcon. I got lucario on lockdown. In C.Falcon mu I generally have problems with his running grab after a recovery as well as falcon kick beating out spins dash/charge. Also laggy matches against c.falc don't go well for me.

I'm curious how you guys personally deal with c.falc. I wouldn't say he is a bad matchup but he is a harder matchup. Maybe a 6-4,5-5,or 4-6. Feels mostly even.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

What's with this Spinshotting stuff I've been seeing lately?

Air: down+B, keep holding down for a single charge, hit up/left/right on C-Stick.
Ground: side+B, hold for a little bit (or full), slide finger from B to A (timing required).

I Anybody have any Wario tips? I have a hard tim with this MU. I feel out prioritized by a Wario wall and bike screws spins.

I thought bike was a free SD invincibility to Uair? I'm just theorizing, though.

C. Falcon is one of our easiest preys when it comes to Spring gimping. Just don't get grabbed.

Also, if you find that your approaches aren't working, stop approaching. We have practically zero good approaches now that we've lost ASCSC. It's much better to bait a shield/jump/etc and punish accordingly (usually with a grab). A rushing headlong Sonic works wonders against himself.

 

[Camalange]

What's with this Spinshotting stuff I've been seeing lately?

I've been repeating myself a lot these days.

Despite it being in the OP of more than one thread.

 

[kataridragon]

I don't know why I never thought of SD invincibility > Uair. I guess it just never crossed my mind. I've actually shield grabbed wario out of bike before but I've never been able to replicate it.

I haven't had much luck spring gimping falcon. He is really good at avoiding a spring. He has good air mobility even on his up b and can wiggle around the spring.

I can see your point on not forcing the approach. I'm sure i am guilty of that from time to time.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

It's his up+B that is so susceptible to the Spring. Once you get the first one near the edge, it's pretty much a matter of time until he eventually gets stage spiked by it.

 

[Camalange]

I've actually shield grabbed wario out of bike before but I've never been able to replicate it.

I would try practicing that more. Once you get it down it's a viable option and isn't all that difficult. The bike just looks like more of a problem than it really is.

He can also get hit out of it by a lot of moves.

 

[kataridragon]

I will definitely go for the stage spike spring gimp. I tend to go for a deep "wall" spring to make players hesitate to their death. Doesn't work on cap really.

I've been doing better against Wario. It a weird matchup. His aerials have some good priority as well. Not easily gimped either.

I really don't lose these MU often but I could put the advice to good use.

 

[Gregory2590]

Also, if you find that your approaches aren't working, stop approaching. We have practically zero good approaches now that we've lost ASCSC.

IT
STILL
HURTS

 

[Exceladon City]

My god, the truth in that post is sooooo real. I quit Sonic SOLELY because of the lack of ASCSC.

 

[Camalange]

My god, the truth in that post is sooooo real. I quit Sonic SOLELY because of the lack of ASCSC.

Quitter.

 

[Exceladon City]

Quitter.

I still have a pocket Sonic.

 

[IWinToLose]

I find Sonic vs Little Mac to be an extremely favorable match up for Sonic.

Sonic controls the entire flow of the match with his approach options as long as he is outside of Little Mac's FTilt and somtimes FSmash range. Little Mac also has an incredibly terrible aerial game and basically cannot punish Sonic for SC/SD approaches. Also, Little Mac's counter is ineffective against SC/SD, not connecting most of the time. A single mistimed smash attack / Ftilt / Counter from Little Mac to attempt to hit Sonic out of SC/SD will result in SC/SD connecting for a ton of damage and possibly put Little Mac offstage where he is incredibly easy to gimp thanks to the spring and Sonic's solid aerials. Little Mac's best option for stuffing SC/SD is his Jab attack which Sonic can easily shield/jump cancel to return back to the neutral game. Sonic's aerial SC/SD also threaten's Little Mac's attempts to punish Sonic as he lands or simply leads to another favorable mix up for Sonic.

One of Sonic's best tools, especially against Little Mac, is to keep him guessing which direction and how far you will run with your Sonic Speed. If he FSmashes/Ftilts towards you, depending on your distance and timing, you can simply run away forcing him to whiff and punish with reverse SD ,FSmash or FTilt. This leads to an unfavorable mix up for Little Mac. Little Mac is forced to guess your retreating run. If he guesses the Sonic's run is too short and does a dash attack, he will whiff. If he guesses at the right spot and does a dash attack, Sonic can simply reverse SD (the sound will likely force the Little Mac to try to hit you out of it) and shield on reaction to Little Mac running towards you and punish. If he does a grab, you can outrun this even more easily or spot him coming with ample time to spot dodge/roll. If Little Mac decides to advance towards you and shield, he will then need to try to punish the SD or guess if you will cancel and grab/attack/jump instead.

Assuming both players are good and keep mixing these mix ups up and Sonic and Little Mac trade hits, Sonic's Spin Dashes and Grabs lead to multiple follow ups of which Little Mac has few tools to do anything about and often put Little Mac offstage at relatively low %'s. Whereas when Sonic gets hit by Little Mac, Sonic has many options which threaten / nullify Little Mac's follow ups.

 

[Alphicans]

Getting so salty reading what people think of LM lmfao.

I legit wanna play anyone here that thinks this is a 7-3 m/u for sonic. HMU on wifi boys. Or if you're going to APEX hmu then.

 

[Camalange]

Let the salt pour.

 

[Alphicans]

Well it's just like 99% of the people have no idea wtf they're talking about >_>

 

[Camalange]

Well it's just like 99% of the people have no idea wtf they're talking about >_>

Don't take it too personally. Isn't that the Smashboards way? Most of our quality contributors seemed to be MIA for this one.

I'll be at Apex, lol. I'd love to see what a Mac can offer, but I tried to give as fair of an assessment as possible (the LM jokes are far too easy though). I don't think it's 7-3, but I'm hard pressed to believe it's in Mac's favor. Apologies for any of my own misconceptions, but let's be honest... How often have seen this match-up?

 

[kataridragon]

Wanna change my mind? I'll play you wifi. I can record it as well.

I'm not saying the the Sonic v. LM is a 7-3 but it's not better than a 6-4. I don't think it's equal and it's not in Macs favor.

 

[Camalange]

Wanna change my mind? I'll play you wifi. I can record it as well.

I like the spirit.

 

[Gregory2590]

Are you guys seriously using wi-fi as a valid method of matchup verification?

 

[Camalange]

I'm not.

I said I'd be at Apex.

But I'm also an instigator.

 

[kataridragon]

Smash Bros netcode is pretty good. I have lag sometimes but I would say 80% of my matches are lag free.

I'm not sure why there is so much online hate. Offline you can guarantee no lag which is fine. But most online matches are good.

Are you guys seriously using wi-fi as a valid method of matchup verification?

Sounds like Salt.

 

[Kuraudo]

@ Alphicans I make you switch to Diddy.

It's not 70/30 or a bad match for Little Mac though.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Online is way better now but it still sucks.

Teching online has to be done earlier than usual for instance.

 

[Alphicans]

Wanna change my mind? I'll play you wifi. I can record it as well.

I'm not saying the the Sonic v. LM is a 7-3 but it's not better than a 6-4. I don't think it's equal and it's not in Macs favor.

We can play a bit later today? I'll be home around 3pm MST.

Are you guys seriously using wi-fi as a valid method of matchup verification?

Not really. I'd prefer offline of course... But if it's a 7-3 match-up and the connection is at least decent, then a sonic should still beat me fairly easily.

 

[kataridragon]

NNID: SheriffCrazy

I have work this afternoon at 3 i am central time.

 

[Camalange]

@ Alphicans , we should try to play at Apex. I'm interested in learning this match-up.

 

[Alphicans]

NNID: SheriffCrazy

I have work this afternoon at 3 i am central time.

Alright just got home. I'll add you now. Hopefully we can play a few games.

 

[kataridragon]

Nice. Friday is best. I have the day off. So whenever will be cool.