European Brawl Tier List Project

[Marc]

On the Dutch boards we thought it’d be a good idea to create a European Brawl tier list. While there are no differences between PAL and NTSC this time around, our communities and metagames are still different. This topic is basically for seeing who’s on board and how to go about this.

First of all, I don’t think each and every player should have a say in this. This leads to a problem: how to decide who gets to vote. We don’t have a fully functional European Back Room. With the Melee tier list I picked representatives for each country and had them decide who got to vote and getting people to post.

Countries with active Brawl scenes + players who I think should vote at least:
Austria ( Gheb, l!nk_aut, Luigi Player, Spadefox)
France (Achoral, Blad01, K@0S)
Germany (.Tero)
The Netherlands (Aqua, Boku, Cenel, Gaki, Gmoney, istudying, Jumpman, Marc, RebazTalei)
Portugal (Flayl, King Funk)
Spain (El_Bardo, Greward, Marcbri)
Sweden (Aniolas, Armada, Captain Jadde, Izaw, Smasher89)
The United Kingdom (Aiko, Blinky, Fuzzyness, Kira!, Makomako, Retroking2000, Yeniths)

*people in red are representatives

Any countries I’ve missed? As you can see, I really don’t know much about some scenes. This list can be greatly expanded upon, but it’s 10 people max per country. In my early draft for my own country I didn’t even reach that number, so think carefully about this. I basically wanna hear names and people stepping up to sort out who’s on board from their country.

Also note this thread will be moderated harshly.

 

[Tiersie]

If I recall correctly, Serpit stopped playing long ago.

 

[Marc]

Alright, anyone who can verify this? Does Austria have good players left?

 

[Aiko]

There are a few people in UK whom i think would be suitable to contribute to this. I'll have a good think and discussion with some top players to see he would be suitable.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The most active Brawl players from Austria on SWF and the german boards are Luigi Player, Spadefox and me. Out of those Luigi Player is the best at this game but I dare to say that I have the most knowledge overall. I can already promise to be very active in this project but I don't think it's a problem to have all 3 of us there, right? So I'd say...

NL: Jumpman, Marc, Gmoney, Gaki and a 5th person
UK: Aiko, Willz, possibly Fuzzyness
Germany: Tero, pheX, B!ggad and some others
Austria: Luigi Player, Spadefox, Gheb, l!nk_aut
France: Blad01, Archoral, maybe Bjay + Charby?
Spain: Marcbri, Greward
Sweden: Pep1to, Smasher89, Armada, Aniolas, Izaw
Italy: Malva? Omega?

Also, I know most of the german people from the german boards (or in person in some cases) and I'm not sure about how well reaper would fit into such a discussion. As far as I'm concerned he can't even speak english (his sentences are barely readable in german tbh) - I can't say anything about Pamaro...
At this point I'd like to refer to my tournament results thread for data...tournament results should be the most important factor since it's the most obvious way to determine the difference between EU and US.

 

[Marc]

There will be a voting thread and a discussion thread. It'd be great if participants can speak English, so they can actually discuss the votes, but I could allow just voting for some people if it's really bad.

 

[Jolteon]

I dont think fuzzy knows enough about brawl match-ups to comment on more than a few top-tiers, though not many in the UK do really. Aiko is a good choice I think though.

 

[Blad01]

As I said in PM, we could simply use the EBBR (European Brawl Back Room) which is in construction, for this project.

And Marc, you should start to go on this EBBR forum

Also, I like the project, but I think it's still a bit early. In my opinion, we should wait until the end of the Summer : We'll have had international tournaments, more actual match-ups experience, more accurate results, and overall more experienced people to vote.

 

[Gmoney_]

Blad about waiting till the end of the summer isn't that bad of an idea, but I think it's better if we start this project real soon. This way we can start uniting the EU community more. Countries will still be able to add experienced players to there list later on, so that shouldn't be a problem I guess.

 

[King Funk]

We are having a growing Brawl community of which Flayl and me are the leaders... Do you need one (or two) to represent Portugal? ^^

Here is a tournament we are about to organize in July:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=232806

 

[Marcbri]

how about if the EBBR does the list?

Me, Greward and El_Bardo would be the best in Spain to represent the Spanish community IMO

( ranked 1st, 2nd and 5th in Spain, 3rd and 4th suck at english xD)

 

[Greward]

Spain has a big scene, still we need more tourneys and we have problems of melee vs brawl lol.
I agree with the people marcbri said (bardo marcbri and me) the 3rd ranked (Miquel) and 4th (Neji) havent got enough knowledge about matchups and characters in general and i think they wont be too much interested on this.
We are going to have another national this july, i hope our TO (Evle) will post something here SWF soon...
Oh, and Joannet88 has a really good knowledge of brawl, i think he could participate too... but his english sucks a little x]

 

[Marc]

The problem of less developed scenes is solved by giving them less representation. I do think every country with a scene should have a say, even if it is a small one.

We could do the actual discussion and voting on the EBBR forum, but let's gather people here first. I could also request a Back Room as a subforum in the Europe section right here. Opinions?

 

[Flayl]

The problem of less developed scenes is solved by giving them less representation. I do think every country with a scene should have a say, even if it is a small one.

We could do the actual discussion and voting on the EBBR forum, but let's gather people here first. I could also request a Back Room as a subforum in the Europe section right here. Opinions?

I was going to say Portugal shouldn't participate yet but what you said in the first paragraph sounds good to me.

 

[Retroking2000]

im a good brawler i would like to have say in this ^^

+

European backroom would be really helpful

 

[Marcbri]

so you have an idea of what Spanish scene is like: we have about 100 offline players and then we have millions of scrubs and online players only, but those do not count xD.

 

[King Funk]

How will the Brawl Tier List be voted?

EDIT: one thing is sure, we european representatives (Marcbri, Blad01 and me) sure love Falco.

 

[Marc]

Simplest way is to have everyone post their list in order and average the votes out. We decide on the tier gaps afterwards.

 

[istudying]

im a good brawler i would like to have say in this ^^

+

European backroom would be really helpful

It's not only about being good at Brawl.
You have to have the knowledge about match ups and others.

ESBR subforum sounds good.

 

[Retroking2000]

well to be good you need to know that

sorry if i made it unclear

 

[Tero.]

lol reaper and Pamaro are definitly not the best choice for germany, neither of them is in the german (austria/switzerland) brawl back room. Pamaro doesn't really care about this game and reaper has not enough knowledge even though he is the best brawler in germany plus he can't speak a word english and his debating skills are bottom tier.

The german Brawl Back Room has 9 Members atm ( .selebu, Biggad, Gheb, pheX, Ravenlord, Tero, Vegeta, Yomi, _Void_)

We should definitly do this on the European Brawl Back Room, a project we started quite a while ago.

 

[King Funk]

Do you guys we should determine a certain number of people to represent each country, so that it reflects the size of each smash community in Europe (like delegates in american presidential elections for each state)?

Here's an example (probably very wrong and inaccurate, give your own opinion):

Austria: 3
France: 4
Germany: 8
The Netherlands: 10
Portugal: 2
Spain: 4
Sweden: 4
The United Kingdom: 10

 

[Tero.]

I think that's way too much people per country.
There are not that much valid people.
Something between 3-5 for the bigger communitys should be more accurate.

(Also why the hell should UK get so many?)

 

[Marc]

Okay, a few points...

I really value the opinions of people that are competitively good, even if their debating skills aren't up to par. They have proven they know the game and should have some ideas about which characters are good and which aren't. Tier lists reflect tournament perfomances before they reflect theory. So if good players are willing to vote and able to do so, I still want them included.

As for the numbers, I already put it at 10 at max. Chances are some people will drop out for whatever reason and 10 is only for the biggest communities/communities with the most good players. The regular SBR has many members voting and the more people you have, the less extremely deviant votes will influence the outcome. I'm not going to decide the numbers beyond this, but I will be somewhat critical of who are brought in.

Tero, since you were the first German to respond, I'll put you in charge of deciding who's up for it from Germany. Please keep in mind what I said above.

 

[Greward]

Ok, but for example lots of countries think that here in spain we havent got a big scene or good players without any reason, and thats false.
coughfrancecoughhollandcough

 

[OldGeezer666]

does Europe need a tier list
I get the one for melee
but brawl? isn't it just the same as NTSC version

 

[Gmoney_]

Well it is the same as NTSC so is the Japanese one. But look at the 2 tier lists, they aren't the same.

 

[Marc]

Ok, but for example lots of countries think that here in spain we havent got a big scene or good players without any reason, and thats false.
coughfrancecoughhollandcough

I actually have little idea about your Brawl scene. I'd be hesitant to give you 10 representatives right away, but I'm definitely including Spain in this.

does Europe need a tier list
I get the one for melee
but brawl? isn't it just the same as NTSC version

Tier lists also represent the region's metagame, especially in this phase of the game's life. Just look at the differences between the American and Japanese list.

EDIT: Gmoney beat me to it.

 

[Tero.]

Okay, a few points...

I really value the opinions of people that are competitively good, even if they're debating skills aren't up to par. They have proven they know the game and should have some ideas about which characters are good and which aren't. Tier lists reflect tournament perfomances before they reflect theory. So if good players are willing to vote and able to do so, I still want them included.

As for the numbers, I already put it at 10 at max. Chances are some people will drop out for whatever reason and 10 is only for the biggest communities/communities with the most good players. The regular SBR has many members voting and the more people you have, the less extremely deviant votes will influence the outcome. I'm not going to decide the numbers beyond this, but I will be somewhat critical of who are brought in.

Tero, since you were the first German to respond, I'll put you in charge of deciding who's up for it from Germany. Please keep in mind what I said above.

Well that's a valid point.
I'm going to ask reaper/Pamaro about it.

About the countries:
I think France, the Netherlands and Germany have the biggest scenes at the moment, followed by Spain and Sweeden.
Italian scene is almost non existant and swiss scene is very very small.
Austrian scene is pretty small but has quite a few good and knowledgable players.

1) Netherlands, France, Germany
2) Spain, Sweeden
3) Austria, UK
[...]gap[...]
4) Italy, Switzerland, Portugal

maybe 10 people for group 1, 8 for group 2, 5 for group 3 and 2 for group 4

 

[King Funk]

Well that's a valid point.
I'm going to ask reaper/Pamaro about it.

About the countries:
I think France, the Netherlands and Germany have the biggest scenes at the moment, followed by Spain and Sweeden.
Italian scene is almost non existant and swiss scene is very very small.
Austrian scene is pretty small but has quite a few good and knowledgable players.

1) Netherlands, France, Germany
2) Spain, Sweeden
3) Austria, UK
[...]gap[...]
4) Italy, Switzerland, Portugal

maybe 10 people for group 1, 8 for group 2, 5 for group 3 and 2 for group 4

Isn't the U.K scene bigger than that?

 

[Fuzzyness]

you have no clue how big the UK community is, we have about 60-70 in london alone, over 100 smashers in UK im sure

how about asking me/aiko before making conclusions?

 

[K@0S]

Blad01, Achoral and I represent France atm.

 

[Tero.]

Isn't the U.K scene bigger than that?

Yeah probably, first I had them in the seccond category, but i wasn't sure, let's wait for someone from the UK to clear this up.

Edit: I'm too slow.

 

[Fuzzyness]

lol np tero xD go back to jiggz plox

 

[King Funk]

lol np tero xD go back to jiggz plox

Well I guess you have to decide on more representatives for the U.K... ^^

By the way, I completely support the idea of an European Brawl Back Room. We should ask an administrator for this.

 

[Fuzzyness]

I believe we already have discussed the back room and im part of the group, but we just need to make it

It's invite only

 

[Blad01]

Marc, before you begin that projet, come on the EBBR forum. We have discussed how big each country's competitve scene was already.

And we're still inviting people, so you may propose some (/all) that are in your first post

If you don't have the link, send a PM to Tero or me, and we will send you. I could just put it here, because visitors can't see the subforums anyways, but I'm not sure what Tero thinks of that.

 

[Willz]

I'd like to help the UK side. I'm a good player and very knowledgeable of a lot of characters metagames, match-ups and stuff. =]

 

[Marc]

I just requested a European Back Room that is an actual subforum in this room. This is for several reasons:

1. Most smashers have an account on here, their own country's forum and something like AIB. Having them sign up for yet another account is too much IMO and it will hurt activity. One of the reasons I've never posted on the EBBR forum is that it simply isn't part of my daily browsing routine, which is busy enough already.
2. Smashboards is stable and ad-free.
3. We are just as much a part of the smash community as our American brethren. Why should we be all over the place? IMO it's long overdue.
4. I don't like social groups.

I read through some stuff on the EBBR forum and I've seen some people that are very capable of discussing these things properly.

 

[Willz]

Yeah probably, first I had them in the seccond category, but i wasn't sure, let's wait for someone from the UK to clear this up.

Edit: I'm too slow.

The UK community is pretty big to my knowledge. Like Fuzzy said there is about 70 players in London alone. In my area (East Midlands) there is about 20, and in the North West area there is about 20-30 I think.