Elements and Attributes Mafia - Game Over!

[#HBC | Joker]

1. Handorin - hasn't posted much. Null
2. BadWolf28738 - same
3. Aggressive Mediation (Ryker/WashedLaundry) - Despite what you guys may think, my earlier scum read was legitimate. I can see why it may have just been a misunderstanding on my part. Other than that, still Null
4. Dark Horse - Null
5. Gheb_01 - I can see the scum arguments, but I still just kind of feel like it was Gheb being Gheb. I don't feel very strongly either way. Null.
6. JTB - Not sure what to make of him poo pooing my wagon while simultaneously being on it.. it's weird, but I dunno if it's scummy. Null
7. frozenflame751 - hasn't posted much either. Null
8. Potassium - Probably town. Misguided Town.
9. Legolas - it would've been really really easy for them to just roll with my wagon, if they were scum. His defense of me read as townie. Town
10. Red Ruy - He's all over the place so far. Not sure why he's so hell bent on asserting his authority, but I guess it's not inherently scummy. Just not really what I expect from Ryu. Null
12. Foxy the Silver Fox (Anomandaris_Rake/Ranmaru) - Pretty much the same logic as Legolas. Not rushing to conclusions based on such minimal evidence looks townie from this slot. Town
13. Scylla & Charybdis (adumbrodeus/Swiss) - Dunno what scum Swiss looks like, but I think the way he pushed me was town swiss. Prolly town?

 

[Kantrip]

Why even say I am a good lynch if you have no reason to even vote me?

I didn't say you were a good lynch. I said okay as in "meh, I wouldn't be upset if you got lynched."

To put it in perspective, I think there are probably 5 lynches that would be better than yours. The reason I didn't say you are a bad lynch like Gheb and AM is because you aren't as strong a player as them, and your "I am leading this town" stuff is distracting. You have not proven yourself as someone who is capable of leading town so it's really just pointless. I wouldn't shed a tear if you were lynched, is all.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

There are 5 lynches better than Ryu's? Who are they and why? The only one you said was me, and you mentioned Ryu. Why'd you even mention Ryu, but not the other 4 people that are better lynches than him?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What the guy above me said.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

PJB, look over the past 3 pages.

Tell me who your top 3 scum picks would be and why.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

7* not 3 derp derp

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Kantrip don't fool yourself, I can and will lead.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I dunno, I thought Kantrip was derpy town but after the way he just proclaimed that there are at least 6 lynches he'd be ok with, I dunno what to think about him. The way he just kind of disappeared is a tad unsettling, as well. He may just still be... really really derpy though.

I don't think I have 3 scum picks. The only one I can even see the argument for is Gheb, and I don't particularly agree with it. Everyone else is too null for me to judge. The fact that everybody made my wagon oh so easy to jump on makes it too difficult to judge anyone's intentions.

 

[Scylla & Charybdis]

Kantrip don't fool yourself, I can and will lead.

RR for funniest guy on the planet, atm town kantrip is more qualified to lead then you.


Speaking of which, kantrip bby, talk to me about somebody you think is scum in depth.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

I managed to somehow pull myself away from Minecraft to post in here. Two Posts incoming.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

Vote:S&C
Swiss made this easy, all aboard everyone.

Red Ryu, what was this about?

Please...no more pressure.
I think I will crumble.

...

Nvm.

Vote: Foxy

Rake/Ran scum

Ryu, I think you just backtracked to voting me. I want you to talk to me about Swissdumb. You were easily convinced out of voting him and I think that is a sign of weakness.

Personally I just view everyone else as null and let them prove what they are. No reason to think someone's town without them earning that type of a view. That's just a fundamental difference in point of view, though.

I like the PJB wagon early, if he does get so agitated. Him trying to say it's an RVS wagon when it has a few teeth to it is a blatant strawman of the reasons Swiss and Gheb have given for it.

vote: PJB

AM, why does him saying it differently then it really is, make him scum? This feels to me as just a reason to tack on to join the wagon. You basically got on him for reacting poorly from my pov. What's your opinion of JTB and Swiss/dumb?

Oh it has teeth now, because you reacted poorly to it. I just need to decide whether it's pure weakness on your part or you're scum.

This was posted Friday. .

thread useless and boring - back later. How none of you can generate content is beyond me

I'll skim up and produce pseudo content later

and it's Monday. You haven't really decided, or really shown what you have decided relating to PJB. Where is the content? Inb4 "IM AT WORK /IM PLAYING LEAGUE/IM PLAYING GEARS" I'm not rushing, just post when you can (after work/LoL/gears). You asked me for my results, I'm giving them. Now it's time for you to give results. Your waiting is giving me concerns about your slot.

RR for funniest guy on the planet, atm town kantrip is more qualified to lead then you.

Speaking of which, kantrip bby, talk to me about somebody you think is scum in depth.

Hmm? How so. I think Kantrip and Ryu are playing equally right now. Both are being lazy. What gives you the inclination of Kantrip town?

I dislike this post. It states sheeping is bad because it could put you in a bad position later if you were sheeping scum and they flip. That drawback is purely self-preservation. I don't like that that is the kind of thing Joker is worried about.

I don't like this because he isn't reading too deeply and is focusing mostly on PJB just to target PJB. The below quotes show that his push on PJB is weak, but I don't like the fact that Kantrip has not noticed this, which re-inforces my feeling that Kantrip doesn't really care to reconsider his read on PJB, only to purposely paint him scummy and fuel his push for his selfish agenda.

OK, FUD might be a bit too harsh a word but the fact that you say "it remains to be seen whether he's town or not" bothers me. For two reasons mainly: first, what remains to be seen is whether he's scum or not because we're all innocent until proven guilty. You've twisting this inherently fundamental logic of scum hunting. As long as it's not being taken overboard then it's OK to sheep a power player a little and see what happens. It's not like we don't learn anything about the waggoned player, the "leader" and the sheeps. Discouraging a wagon on such principles is anti-town. Getting hooked on a provokative term like "sheeping" and "buddying" not a justficiation imo especially if you look at the way these terms have been handled in this game's context so far.


Second, you create a problem that doesn't exist. Why is it a problem that Kantrip chooses to sheep Swiss? Not only is Swiss' judgment more trustworthy than Kantrip but we can also learn a lot about the relationship between Kantrip and Swiss by seeing how far Kantrip is willing to sheep Swiss. All facts considered, it's pretty clear why the wagon makes sense and we might just found our first scumbag already. You can't hide behind your destructive cynicism forever.

... See below.

Personally, I'm not of the opinion that sheeping somebody who's alignment you don't know is a good idea. Even if it's technically harmless, I'm not willing to put myself in a position where S&C flips scum later, and then people come in later saying stuff like "lol, look, pjb must be scum cuz he sheeped S&C early on!" Needlessly connecting myself to players I don't necessarily trust is just... not smart.

Notice the bold? He said EVEN IF, so he's talking about Gheb saying... "Then it's OK" in the quote above. This is in response to Gheb. So, Kantrip is using the answer to another person's theory, as his fuel to push PJB. This shows that he isn't reading carefully enough, and that his push on PJB is pretty weak. As I have said, I feel Kantrip is just focusing on PJB but not much else.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

This post really resonates badly with me. Considering how you wanted to go to Kantrip early, I feel like you are just trying to alleviate pressure on PJB rather than pull information from his wagon. Just because wagons are 'usually' incorrect does not mean they are always incorrect, surely you know this?

Hmm? You have a problem with me going towards Kantrip early?

What's your read on him?


Also the blue here and below, they seem like you are adding them to show 'dislike' but just to show it. You know what I mean? It seems superficial, like you are trying to find something suspicious but have to put 'this rings badly to me' to tack on that you are accusing me or someone else of something.

Can you tell me how confident you are in your reads on us and Gheb? Can you give me two more reads? I want you to commit a bit more than that.

I can dig (:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX wrt Gheb. I felt like his early posts about PJB were looking moreso to discredit him and paint him as scum rather than get info out of him (example, PJB 'spreading' FUD, bashing him for having a different scumhunting style than innocent until proven guilty).

Didn't like this post one bit. Gheb stated in his 42 that PJB is exactly the type of player to be defensive, so why is it a surprise when he does exactly as you said?

This is interesting. Why haven't you spoken about Gheb trying to discredit PJB earlier?

Where did I say it's a surprise? Or a problem? I'm pretty sure you're not read up and don't quite understand what my points are.

JTB, can you expand on your dislike of Gheb's 'Surprise'?
Gheb, what do you think of JTB's questioning towards you here, I mean, what do you think he's trying to do here? What's your read on JTB?

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

A few reads. Also I lied, this is 3 posts.
I think Ryu is town. I just think he's wrong on us. His vote on SC didn't seem opportunistic, it felt natural and as if he picked it up, but was easily convinced to back down. I still don't think he is really that convinced of his push on us, but it's most likely due to his approach and his 'nvm' when he pushed Swissdumb initially.
I still don't like Kantrip. I still feel he put PJB in the position to be framed, and wronging him for his own answer to another's theory about sheeping, to fuel his push. I also think he hasn't been looking into it deeply and is really pushing PJB in a superficial manner. I mean, he looks at something that can damn PJB but doesn't realize that PJB was responding to Gheb, not just stating it out of no where. I feel this may be a scum mistake, for being too 'zoney' on someone to target for a lynch.
Swiss/Dumb have been at the peak of the PJB wagon, yet have nothing to show for it at this time. He states he is still deciding on scum/dumb from PJB yet nothing (but excuses and promises ). I don't like it really. I don't know what he is waiting for. Slight scum lean.
I'm against the PJB wagon. JTB/AM lynches can be offered as compromise lynches. Gheb noticed, and JTB also hasn't really been reading quite deeply enough. He's weird and I'm fine with him as a compromise lynch, and AM I don't have much but that his reasoning for getting on PJB was tacked on and was just because PJB did react badly. I don't find him that scummy, but he would only be a last resort lynch. I have Swiss before AM because I'd like to investigate further on him, as I don't know what he is really doing while the PJB wagon just sits there, riding on a wagon.
Kantrip > Jtb > Swiss > AM

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

Dang it. That post is unreadable. I blame Rake.

A few reads. Also I lied, this is 3 posts.

I think Ryu is town. I just think he's wrong on us. His vote on SC didn't seem opportunistic, it felt natural and as if he picked it up, but was easily convinced to back down. I still don't think he is really that convinced of his push on us, but it's most likely due to his approach and his 'nvm' when he pushed Swissdumb initially.

I still don't like Kantrip. I still feel he put PJB in the position to be framed, and wronging him for his own answer to another's theory about sheeping, to fuel his push. I also think he hasn't been looking into it deeply and is really pushing PJB in a superficial manner. I mean, he looks at something that can damn PJB but doesn't realize that PJB was responding to Gheb, not just stating it out of no where. I feel this may be a scum mistake, for being too 'zoney' on someone to target for a lynch.

Swiss/Dumb have been at the peak of the PJB wagon, yet have nothing to show for it at this time. He states he is still deciding on scum/dumb from PJB yet nothing. I don't like it really. I don't know what he is waiting for. Slight scum lean.

I'm against the PJB wagon. JTB/AM lynches can be offered as compromise lynches. Gheb noticed, and JTB also hasn't really been reading quite deeply enough. He's weird and I'm fine with him as a compromise lynch, and AM I don't have much but that his reasoning for getting on PJB was tacked on and was just because PJB did react badly. I don't find him that scummy, but he would only be a last resort lynch.

Kantrip > Jtb > Swiss > AM

 

[~ Gheb ~]

PJB, you don't have a single clear scum read in your list? How come? If you had to pick one active player who'd you say the play is right now? Do you think that at the course this game is currently taking it's very likely that scum could be among the inactive players?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I dunno, I thought Kantrip was derpy town but after the way he just proclaimed that there are at least 6 lynches he'd be ok with, I dunno what to think about him.

I actually am pertty much entirely with Kantrip on this one. You say you don't know what to think about Kantrip saying that there are at least 6 lynches he wouldn't complain about. *Would* you complain then if one out of Badwolf, Dark Horse, JTB, frozen or AM were lynched toDay? That's already 5 people that I think you wouldn't mind dying atm.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb, what do you think of JTB's questioning towards you here, I mean, what do you think he's trying to do here? What's your read on JTB?

My impression is that he is trying to find his way into this game by asking me questions, since he probably knows me better than the other people. We all know how much he struggles at staying active in these games so I wouldn't read that much into it. Not that I appreciate it or would complain if he were lynched over it but I don't think he's trying to make me look bad.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ryu, what are your reads? You're not getting to lead anybody without convincing points.

I'm currently reevaluating / waiting for PJB's responses. I feel like there are too many people that I'm OK with if they'd die toDay and not enough people that I can clearly tell what to think about [minus PJB]. I hate how the inactive bunch have killed off this wonderful momentum we've gained through the PJB wagon.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I think it's likely that there's at least one scum among the inactives. As far as active players are concerned, I'm just having a hard time differentiating between them, in terms of their hop onto my wagon. Everyone kind of expressed interest for the same reasons, and in the same way (outside of some choosing to vote, and some choosing not to).

I need to get my own wagon off my brain and start looking at how people are pursuing others, cuz that's starting to become a thing now. I will say that I'm kind of feeling Fox's points about Kantrip. He definitely seems like he's trying to keep people steered towards me at all costs. I find Kantrip difficult to read, in general, so fox may be onto something here.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm just having a hard time differentiating between them, in terms of their hop onto my wagon.

Agreed, I think it will be more fruitful to look at how people behave in regards to other things as this wagon.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

My impression is that he is trying to find his way into this game by asking me questions, since he probably knows me better than the other people. We all know how much he struggles at staying active in these games so I wouldn't read that much into it. Not that I appreciate it or would complain if he were lynched over it but I don't think he's trying to make me look bad.

I really don't like the fact that Gheb needed to add the bolded. It seems randomly tacked on and just looks like that wishy-washy bull**** I do as scum occasionally. It's like, why go out of your way to say "I wouldn't mind if he was lynched for this!" even though you think he's doing nothing wrong and there's no harm in it?

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

AM, why does him saying it differently then it really is, make him scum? This feels to me as just a reason to tack on to join the wagon. You basically got on him for reacting poorly from my pov. What's your opinion of JTB and Swiss/dumb?

I think it was an overestimation on my part. He demonstrated later he had no understanding of what was actually going on with that wagon. This all got sorted out after this post. My primary reason was I agreed with the point of the wagon (pressure a reactive player to see how he reacts) so I wanted to hop on.

JTB is a shameless coaster. I haven't looked much at him but the few posts he has haven't really struck me as odd.
Swiss/dumb also haven't struck me as odd either but I'm about to go reread and look more in-depth. The PJB wagon has somewhat stalled and even if he is lynched and flips scum, he's not the only one in this game.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

EBWOP: I felt he was trying to discredit the wagon on him by saying it was an RVS wagon or that it was worthless when it wasn't and two people had said it wasn't. It seemed like a blatant misrepresentation and I didn't like the reaction then. Now, I understand that he simply didn't even see why it was happening, so there was no way he could've understood it. Understand now?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

RR for funniest guy on the planet, atm town kantrip is more qualified to lead then you.


Speaking of which, kantrip bby, talk to me about somebody you think is scum in depth.

Nah I'm the most qualified Swiss stop telling lies.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I dunno, I thought Kantrip was derpy town but after the way he just proclaimed that there are at least 6 lynches he'd be ok with, I dunno what to think about him. The way he just kind of disappeared is a tad unsettling, as well. He may just still be... really really derpy though.

I don't think I have 3 scum picks. The only one I can even see the argument for is Gheb, and I don't particularly agree with it. Everyone else is too null for me to judge. The fact that everybody made my wagon oh so easy to jump on makes it too difficult to judge anyone's intentions.

You need to fix this.

 

[Scylla & Charybdis]

I'm waiting for kantrip to talk to me, swiss is probably still drunk from the weekend.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Swiss, you put focus on my leadership mumbo jumbo, but you don't seem to be doing much to fix things you complain about nor try to advance the thread.

You have your vote on PJB, but I don't see you making much effort to pushing it in any direction nor what has changed for better or worse on him. No word tells, no mechanical tells, you've just been sitting there.

Also,

Point of this post....?



The perspective here is just...so...........********.



duh



sorry

thread useless and boring - back later. How none of you can generate content is beyond me

I hate this post.

Only part that is kinda content is the part to PJB.

"Point of this post?", well to tell us where PJB is at lynch wise, that should be obvious, why ask that?

Last past bugs me even more. You complain about no content but make no effort to fix this, this is not something I would see you do of all people in this game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm waiting for kantrip to talk to me, swiss is probably still drunk from the weekend.

Adumb, can you tell me what you think of PJB at the very least in terms of development?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

BadWolf and JTB are in my die via Vig or inactive lynch. I refuse to tolerate inactivity that is shameless coasting.

I like Legolas a lot, their Gheb reasoning to not like him, eh not really agreeing there. I like the effort to point out a lot of people on the PJB wagon have pretty ass reasons to be on it. I don't think Gheb's was bad though. It's more or less is where I stand with him in regards to how he is playing.

PJB as a lynch? Eh, It's not 100% with me atm. I don't like him for a lot of the reasons Gheb brought up, and I addressed this myself. The problem though is some people on that wagon are no on my like list and I'm not certain if PJB is scum off his reactions from being careful to give content, or just hard to deal with being pressured and getting content. I would lynch over not since he is being unhelpful, but I trying to give him to breathing room so I can read him better.

Gheb himself, I'm leaning town off his reactions and posts. He's not being strictly scummy in any sense.

S&C should not be on anyone's town list. I am concerned about them and it's not paranoia this time. I'm trying to see how they are posting relates to what they are doing and it's not really clicking with me. I'm not getting a sense of direction from a town PoV. The RvS is not where I am getting this tell either, if it wasn't obvious it was lulz not serious. His later posts are where I am getting more conflicted and worried.

AM is a town read. How they are approaching today is more or less what I would expect and wanted to see.

Foxy still is my #1 atm before or after PJB depends right now. I don't like at all how that slot has been posted, pre Ran coming back from mindcraft, will work on it more but that slot has pretty much been doing a lot of what PJB has been accused off, just not getting attention for some reason.

Kantrip I dislike, I want him to answer me in reguards to where his other top 5 are and why since I don't get the mentioning me when really no one was dropping my name as a lynch other than PJB.

Hando I got a lean off just him posting some content and not coasting.

Everyone else is really just off my Radar atm.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Red Ryu, what was this about?


...


Ryu, I think you just backtracked to voting me. I want you to talk to me about Swissdumb. You were easily convinced out of voting him and I think that is a sign of weakness.

Neither of you read this surface level.

I don't believe for a second you thought I had something on SwissAdumb on Page 1-2 then backtracked to cover it it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think Ryu is town. I just think he's wrong on us. His vote on SC didn't seem opportunistic, it felt natural and as if he picked it up, but was easily convinced to back down. I still don't think he is really that convinced of his push on us, but it's most likely due to his approach and his 'nvm' when he pushed Swissdumb initially.

Where the hell did this 180 come from?

You just asked me the post before on my vote?

Vote: Foxy

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Unvote

Then I read the rest and like it, **** me.

Rereading.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Vote: S&C

For now.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Man I hate Foxy Page 1-2. Their post to Gheb, then why they opposed the PJB wagon, I hate how they handled that. It's like they were trying to go for a fake "townie" approach on it.

Then I like what they just posted, It's has more analysis and looking at the key components on what had occurred. How they went bath and forth with me in those posts, bad I don't like it. Why ask me those questions if they are gonna throw me into the town pile.

Then the rest of it, it matches what I've been seeing. I like what they are commenting on. *Grumble Grumble*

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh it has teeth now, because you reacted poorly to it. I just need to decide whether it's pure weakness or your part or you're scum.

Yeah still want to know this.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Legolas #1 town read.

Rethinking Foxy.

PJB needs to answer me/other then do something on his own.

More attention on S&C is needed.

Forgot Dark Horse was in the game.

Done for now.

 

[Scylla & Charybdis]

RR, I just asked a player who really dislikes PBJ to describe why he hates somebody in depth, do you really think I wanna spoil that result by showing my conclusion now?

Common man, think

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

RR, I just asked a player who really dislikes PBJ to describe why he hates somebody in depth, do you really think I wanna spoil that result by showing my conclusion now?

Common man, think

Fair enough.

Kantrip get in here.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I really don't like the fact that Gheb needed to add the bolded. It seems randomly tacked on and just looks like that wishy-washy bull**** I do as scum occasionally. It's like, why go out of your way to say "I wouldn't mind if he was lynched for this!" even though you think he's doing nothing wrong and there's no harm in it?

I never said that there's no harm done in the way JTB's playing. I just responded to Foxy asking me how I feel about JTB's way of questioning me in that very instance - not to be confused with how I feel about his play in general. I don't think the way JTB chose to question me was scummy but I think his overall play would justify his lynch.

Also, had I not mentioned it somebody else surely would've pointed fingers at me "covering" for JTB.

 

[(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:)]

Lego, what bugs me about your argument is that you claim that I don't differentiate anti-town play and scummy play re: PJB. While I don't think that's true I'm not going to hold that line of thinking / arguing against you [for now]. However, your last batch of responses to my points kind of imply that you - probably not consciously - aren't that sure whether *my* way of playing is scummy or anti-town either and yet you vote me. I don't believe that you've thought your points and arguments through entirely and would appreciate if you two would start to coordinate your aguments and points against me, whether you're sure you if you think I'm scummy or just don't play to your expectations and other things, if you haven't done so yet.

When I feel better I can go into detail on where / why I think that you're using a double standard unless you can spot it yourselves.

When you're feeling up to it, I'll like to demonstrate how you're distinguishing PJB's actions up until your 47 as anti-town and not just scummy?

I don't see how what we're accusing you of can just be disregarded as anti-town. Xonar thinks you're generating content for content's sake, which I can kinda see given that random tidbit about WL you made earlier. I (Sworddancer) am more worried about how you seem content to just smother PJB to death. It just doesn't read like a town mindset to me. How is what PJB done so far convinced you of his scumminess? I'm really not confident it's your goal right not to actually lynch scum.

Responding to some of Legolas' questions

The deal with my #175? I'm just being a smartass to Gheb. Not much more than that.

wrt why I thought AM's vote was worse than yours or JTB's. Your vote read like an early RVS troll type

post. Like, you were only wagoning me because you knew it wouldn't necessarily go anywhere, and maybe you wanted to see how people reacted to it. For JTB, I think someone else already said it but he's such a shameless coaster that I also didn't think much of it. Should I?

Now AM was different. AM tried to provide reasoning, but it was bad. They claimed that my wagon was good because of reasons Swiss and Gheb had provided. Go back and look, because Swiss hadn't really provided any sort of reasoning at that point, and Gheb hadn't exactly provided a ton either. Gheb had, indeed tried to make some points, and so did Ryu, but when I asked AM to cite some examples, they couldn't actually point to one. They literally pointed to quotes of Swiss and Gheb, and they were chastising Silver Fox. The quotes were barely even about me.

You get a sticker, because that's exactly the reason I wagoned you. ^.^ At the time I couldn't think of a better way to help start the game, so I simply abide by S&C's request to see how others reacted to it (hope that clear up any accusations of me sheeping).