Elements and Attributes Mafia - Game Over!

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb why are you defending him so hard?

Because he's probably town.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

PJB isn't a play, Gheb? Not even remotely? I'm still finding it rather attractive.

I don't. There's a rather low chance he'll flip scum and we won't learn a whole lot from his flip either.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

From your lynch, I get information on S&C and Gheb, who steered the wagon away from you, I get information on everyone who joined the wagon, I get information on everyone who ignored the wagon, I get information on EVERYONE. Why? Because it was a central issue in the thread.

You don't need to see his flip to learn that though. You already have information on S&C and me and you already know that JTB's and Hando's jump on the wagon was whack as ****.
In the same hand his flip won't make the info you've already got any more accurate. What you conclude from his flip is still going to be your subjective interpretation.

 

[Scylla & Charybdis]

Gheb I do hope that your post to me is incoming so that I might be enabled contribute effectively to town.

I would hate for us to lock heads and for me to have to threaten to derail the day phase.

I do hope we can agree it would be better for me to work smoothly with you as opposed to the quite alarming alternative.

 

[(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:)]

So wait, Swiss didn't make post 361? I sounded so much like it was coming from his perspective . . .

Anyways.

We shouldn't lynch PJB because he's town. There are aspects of his play that worries me but I think it's overshadowed by just how open and honest he's been this game. If he is scum, then he hasn't been doing himself any favors by posting read lists where the worst he gives anyone is null or saying that the reason he doesn't want to sheep someone is because he doesn't want to be connected to them in case they flip scum. A couple of people (Kantrip and DH) were supposedly reading scum intention into the latter, but I've actually taken the exact opposite out of it. I'm glad that PJB wasn't censoring his input and reading PJB say that "I don't want to be connected to a potential scummy" just seems more honest than scummy to me.

Also I know I shouldn't be using meta so ignore this point if you're totally against meta, but taking into consideration PJB's scum play he hasn't been acting like his previous scum play would suggest he would. He seems to be antagonistic as both alignments, but a key difference I noticed is that he was much more reserved and selective about what he outputted as scum. I kinda expect a scum PJB to have rolled up into a ball by now with all the pressure he's getting but he hasn't.

Still though, PJB did tell me at the end of Persona mafia that I showed him what to avoid doing as scum so I kinda only take the above paragraph half-heartedly. Despite this I think my first paragraph as to why PJB shouldn't be lynched toDay stands on it's own feet and is enough reason not to lynch him.

 

[(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:)]

Gheb I don't know what to make of your change of heart - null. Curious as to what changed your mind about PJB?

Btw I agree with you that inacitves should die because I think they are kind of making this game unreadable (in the sense that I can't differente intent). However I don't really know what direction you want to take us now and I'm not satisfied with you just pointing out inactives and leaving it at that.

For the record it was I (Sworddancer) who made those "loaded questions."

 

[(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:)]

I need to think of an alternative lynch instead of Gheb in case I can't convince anyone about his scumminess, but being v/la and with Xonar being lazy I'm a little stressed from time right now.

People should comment on Gheb. Specifically S&C and Ryker. I want to know both of those slots are town reading Gheb. I know they won't though because Ryker procrastinates on playing games and probably won't being posting until the end of the Day and both heads of S&C just like never post.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think I've answered everything you weren't sure about already. If there's anything that has you still hesitate on reading me as town then let me know and give me a chance to answer it. Seems more productive to me than to circumvent me by making this a matter of S&C's / Ryker's opinions before I have answered everything you need to know [which apparently isn't the case yet].

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb I do hope that your post to me is incoming so that I might be enabled contribute effectively to town.

I would hate for us to lock heads and for me to have to threaten to derail the day phase.

I do hope we can agree it would be better for me to work smoothly with you as opposed to the quite alarming alternative.

Same goes to you, Swiss. I'm wondering what it is that you still want me to respond to. You seem to imply that I am hesitating on a response but I think I've covered everything that has been directed towards me.

 

[(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:)]

I think I've answered everything you weren't sure about already. If there's anything that has you still hesitate on reading me as town then let me know and give me a chance to answer it. Seems more productive to me than to circumvent me by making this a matter of S&C's / Ryker's opinions before I have answered everything you need to know [which apparently isn't the case yet].

Sheesh, assumptions assumptions. I apparently can't even pursue other routes without you thinking that I'm trying to "circumvent" you. What have I possibly done that makes you think that I'm trying to "circumvent" you?

Gheb, you haven't really went into detail about why you think PJB is town. Do that.

 

[Kantrip]

You don't need to see his flip to learn that though. You already have information on S&C and me and you already know that JTB's and Hando's jump on the wagon was whack as ****.
In the same hand his flip won't make the info you've already got any more accurate. What you conclude from his flip is still going to be your subjective interpretation.

This is dumb. You realize you defending him is entirely different if he is scum than if he is town. His alignment does matter to actually glean something from the wagon.

 

[Kantrip]

Gheb I do hope that your post to me is incoming so that I might be enabled contribute effectively to town.

I would hate for us to lock heads and for me to have to threaten to derail the day phase.

I do hope we can agree it would be better for me to work smoothly with you as opposed to the quite alarming alternative.

I dislike this post. The looming threat of derailing the day phase should Gheb not comply is bleck.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't. There's a rather low chance he'll flip scum and we won't learn a whole lot from his flip either.

The slot that everyone comment on, yup yup.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb, you haven't really went into detail about why you think PJB is town. Do that.

Innocent until proven guilty. Show me why you think he's scum and I'll refute your arguments.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You realize you defending him is entirely different if he is scum than if he is town.

No, because I am town either way.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Innocent until proven guilty. Show me why you think he's scum and I'll refute your arguments.

This suggests you refuse to even consider it even before Kantrip posts on it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No, not really.

 

[Scylla & Charybdis]

Also I know I shouldn't be using meta so ignore this point if you're totally against meta,

Why shouldn't you be using meta?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

No, not really.

Why would you even say, "I'll refute them" before he listed anything if that is the case?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Please tell me you're joking.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

I don't. There's a rather low chance he'll flip scum and we won't learn a whole lot from his flip either.

What are you smoking? Because apparently it's more than enough to share.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Today or tomarrow I'll outline why PJB is the right call.

He hasn't changed my mind that much.

 

[Handorin]

Rather than calling Gheb's most recent statements ridiculous and repeating what was said, I just liked the posts that were made right after as to avoid clutter. But by making this post I am adding clutter as well as expressing my opinion. (P.S. Gheb, you'd translate äussern into expressing, correct? Sadly, that's the only word that came to mind when I made this post....and expressing just sounds funny to me.)

Also, I feel like I've said clearly why I'd like pjb dead. If you can't find it, even after searching, then get back to me.

 

[(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:)]

I'm seriously starting to think that Gheb's trollng us. Either he got scum for the 500th times and just said "*sigh* I don't even care anymore" or he's just having fun.

Why shouldn't you be using meta?

General practice. I've been burned by people because I over relied on meta to read them. People adapt (especially as scum) and all that jazz.

*S&C still hasn't told me why Gheb is town.*

*S&C still hasn't told me why I'm scum .*

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I still think Gheb is town despite that last post.

 

[(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:)]

Then help me to understand. Why?

 

[Gova]

1. Handorin ()
2. BadWolf28738 ()
3. Aggressive Mediation ()
4. Dark Horse ()
5. Gheb_01 (Legolas)
6. JTB ()
7. frozenflame751 ()
8. Potassium (Foxy, PBJ)
9. Legolas(SC)
10. Red Ruy ()
11. PrivateJoker-Brown (K, JTB, Handorin, AM, RR)
12. Foxy the Silver Fox ()
13. Scylla & Charybdis ()

Not voting: BW, DH, FF, Gheb

With 13 playing it takes 7 lynch!

Deadline is Monday, May 27th at 11:59 CST (GMT-6).

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

I promise to read this over and have a direction tomorrow.

~Rake

 

[Scylla & Charybdis]

1. Handorin ()
2. BadWolf28738 ()
3. Aggressive Mediation ()
4. Dark Horse ()
5. Gheb_01 (Legolas)
6. JTB ()
7. frozenflame751 ()
8. Potassium (Foxy, PBJ)
9. Legolas()
10. Red Ruy ()
11. PrivateJoker-Brown (K, JTB, Handorin, AM, RR)
12. Foxy the Silver Fox ()
13. Scylla & Charybdis ()

Not voting: BW, DH, FF, SC, Gheb

With 13 playing it takes 7 lynch!

Deadline is Monday, May 27th at 11:59 CST (GMT-6).

We're voting legolas.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

Dark Horse, throw a vote down!

 

[Scylla & Charybdis]

I'm seriously starting to think that Gheb's trollng us. Either he got scum for the 500th times and just said "*sigh* I don't even care anymore" or he's just having fun.



General practice. I've been burned by people because I over relied on meta to read them. People adapt (especially as scum) and all that jazz.

*S&C still hasn't told me why Gheb is town.*

*S&C still hasn't told me why I'm scum .*

So I reread in depth and a lot of your posts which gave me a bad taste I actually liked when I really focused on em, your 405 and your 150 still are bleh but reconsidering. I'll chew on your slot.


Gheb tends to be very crurmudgeony as scum, I don't see him offering early control like he did in his 42 as scum, especially not after the train we ran on his scumteam in GS mafia. That said, I merely like the slot, he's not obvious-town like RR, PJB, or kantrip.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@Hando

I'd translate "äußern" into "expressing". It's an almost literal translation of the word. To "ex-press" actually means "aus-drücken", where "aus" has literally the same meaning as the latin term "ex" and "press" is a literal translation of "drücken". If you express yourself by means of art [painting, singing, etc] then we use the word "ausdrücken", if you express yourself through your language then we use the word "aüßern".

I'm seriously starting to think that Gheb's trollng us. Either he got scum for the 500th times and just said "*sigh* I don't even care anymore" or he's just having fun.

Or maybe, you know, I'm just not reading PJB as scum anymore and am actually vocal about it? I don't know what's so unlikely about it and have yet to see reasoning that truly convinces me otherwise. Instead of acting like it's better to just not take me serious how about you actually argue my points? If you think people should be lynching PJB then you should give me a good reason why.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Vote Badwolf

I don't care what you guys think. You all keep making the same mistakes anyway. You'll lynch PJB and if he flips town you'll shrug off responsibility or pretend that you have gained some amazing new info that you haven't but you'll tell yourself that you have - to make you feel better about not actually having a ****ing clue. It's sad that this kind of misguided behavior is a towntell for most of the active slots [Ryu and Kantrip in particular] and the other active slots either read pro-town to me or at least not scum. You guys can do what you think is best for yourself, I'll continue to do what I think is best for town. Some of you have yet to understand that difference.

 

[(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:)]

@Hando

I'd translate "äußern" into "expressing". It's an almost literal translation of the word. To "ex-press" actually means "aus-drücken", where "aus" has literally the same meaning as the latin term "ex" and "press" is a literal translation of "drücken". If you express yourself by means of art [painting, singing, etc] then we use the word "ausdrücken", if you express yourself through your language then we use the word "aüßern".




Or maybe, you know, I'm just not reading PJB as scum anymore and am actually vocal about it? I don't know what's so unlikely about it and have yet to see reasoning that truly convinces me otherwise. Instead of acting like it's better to just not take me serious how about you actually argue my points? If you think people should be lynching PJB then you should give me a good reason why.

You know you're American when you see the words "aus-drücken" and your mind immediately translate it "ass dunking."

Gheb I thought you might have been trolling because in your 414 you asked me to give you reasons as to why PJB is scum, despite the fact that my 405 outlines quite clearly that I don't think PJB is scum. Furthermore when I asked you what changed your mind wrt PJB in my 406 I was asking from the pov that you earlier had PJB and now you didn't, so I was thinking that something about his play changed your mind. I wasn't expecting your retort to be asking what reasons I had him as scum (as if I asked you why you held as town because I myself thought he was scum) nor was I just expecting the response "innocent until guilty."

I'm assuming then that you simply decided that the reasons you previously thought he was scummy didn't actually hold water?

unvote

My vote is useless on Gheb right now, I need to think things over before I place it on anyone else.

 

[(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:)]

EDWOP: "that you earlier had PJB as scum and now don't,"

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb I thought you might have been trolling because in your 414 you asked me to give you reasons as to why PJB is scum, despite the fact that my 405 outlines quite clearly that I don't think PJB is scum. Furthermore when I asked you what changed your mind wrt PJB in my 406 I was asking from the pov that you earlier had PJB and now you didn't, so I was thinking that something about his play changed your mind. I wasn't expecting your retort to be asking what reasons I had him as scum (as if I asked you why you held as town because I myself thought he was scum) nor was I just expecting the response "innocent until guilty."

Sorry for the misunderstanding then.

I don't really know what to tell you on why I changed my mind. It's not one particular reason but more a number of smallish reasons that together add up to the conclusion that he's likely town, in my opinion anyway. One of those reasons is based on the people who have joined to wagon. By the time I unvoted it was only AM I felt comfortable with being on the wagon. I don't think I can agree with Kantrip, JTB or Hando being on the wagon nor am I convinced by their reasoning and that bugs me enough to second guess the whole thing. To be perfectly honest, every single player on the PJB wagon except AM is a good counter-argument against that lynch to me right now. It also just so happened that my clearest town reads [Lego + Foxy] both argued against the wagon. As for my own reasoning, I guess it's just that I'm probably the one person who tends to second-guess himself the most over the course of a game and I can see myself being wrong on PJB easily enough. Looking at the facts, I see a lot more arguments against the PJB lynch than for it.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Sorry guys, it turns out that I bit off more than I could chew when I signed up for this game. I'm going to start reading now

 

[Kantrip]

Gheb, I don't understand what about my play is disorganized in the slightest.

Explain why Badwolf is better than Joker. Explain why we won't draw connections from a Joker lynch. Explain why your read on Joker is so strong that a mislynch among inactives is better than lynching Joker. None of it makes sense

 

[Kantrip]

Sorry for the misunderstanding then.

I don't really know what to tell you on why I changed my mind. It's not one particular reason but more a number of smallish reasons that together add up to the conclusion that he's likely town, in my opinion anyway. One of those reasons is based on the people who have joined to wagon. By the time I unvoted it was only AM I felt comfortable with being on the wagon. I don't think I can agree with Kantrip, JTB or Hando being on the wagon nor am I convinced by their reasoning and that bugs me enough to second guess the whole thing. To be perfectly honest, every single player on the PJB wagon except AM is a good counter-argument against that lynch to me right now. It also just so happened that my clearest town reads [Lego + Foxy] both argued against the wagon. As for my own reasoning, I guess it's just that I'm probably the one person who tends to second-guess himself the most over the course of a game and I can see myself being wrong on PJB easily enough. Looking at the facts, I see a lot more arguments against the PJB lynch than for it.

This is bull****.

You second guess and doubt yourself and so you are so certain Joker is town that it's non-negotiable, you will refute all claims to the contrary before even reading them, and you think nothing can be gained from the lynch?

And one of your main reasons is "my townreads (whom I also have not explained) held this opinion"? Excuse me while I retch.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

First of all I would just like to say that the fact that you can't check a person's individual posts is so amazingly annoying

Upon a reread, the more and more I dislike Hando. His incredibly wishy-washy stance on PJB looks bad on reread. Trying to ask people who their third scum mates is this early game comes as loaded, and the fact that he apparently had three scum by page 5 just comes off as him being rushed.


Put to be honest, I'm going to Vote: PJB. In addition to his play being spotty, there's also the fact that just about every player has commented on him, and some players have had some interesting actions with him (Gheb, Hando). His flip gives a lot of information to work with.