Eldiran's PSAs 'n' Stuff: Newest - Zero 1.4

[ChronicleX]

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I still know the ground dash not useless, because ground dashing takes less time and button input than short hop dashing. If your opponent is only a dash or less away and vulnerable, you'd be better dashing forward and grabbing/slashing. Not only is it simpler to pull off, it's faster and deals more damage in most cases.

I don't actually remember why we were arguing about if it was useful or not, though...

Many reasons, but the main one being Zero needs a reason to use the ground versions of his B Moves, ATM he has none. Take your comment on ground version taking less button input, that is dead wrong right there because to get the same distance with a ground dash Vs a Short Hop Dash you'd have todothe ground dash at LEAST twice. Not only that it is alot slower to execute, alot easier to punish and alot less flexable.

Having a whole set of ground moves that are worthless is such a waste on such a good PSA.

 

[Eldiran]

Many reasons, but the main one being Zero needs a reason to use the ground versions of his B Moves, ATM he has none. Take your comment on ground version taking less button input, that is dead wrong right there because to get the same distance with a ground dash Vs a Short Hop Dash you'd have todothe ground dash at LEAST twice. Not only that it is alot slower to execute, alot easier to punish and alot less flexable.

Having a whole set of ground moves that are worthless is such a waste on such a good PSA.

I'm saying that if you only need to travel a short distance to your enemy, then a ground dash is useful.

EDIT: By the way, does anyone have any specific matchup data they could contribute? I'd like to know matchups that are very far in Zero's favor, or the other way around. Matchup data on less drastic or even matchups is also useful.

 

[ChronicleX]

I'm saying that if you only need to travel a short distance to your enemy, then a ground dash is useful.

Sad thing is it is not and there in lies the problem (still better to short hop + crash into them or fly over them while doing damage instead of running into them dealing no damage at 1/2 the speed). There is no situation to not use the air versions of Zero's moves. His ground B moves are vastly inferior to his air ones, except neutral B for obvious reasons.

As for Zero match up's he fails vs characters that rely on a ground game (Since Zero's ground game sucks), or can survive on high damage normally. So far he only seems to excel vs things that have a ground game just as bad as him, since there is not really much that can rival Zero Air game currently.

 

[Joshua368]

His ground game is somewhat weak but IMO that's good for ballance. (like jigglypuff, powerful air game, weak ground) His forward and down smashes have somewhat weak range but that's a good thing. Still some of his ground attacks work well in conjunction with his aerial game. Air dashing with fair or nair into an opponent and then doing a forward tilt or neutral jab combo as you slide along the ground can be an effective combo, sometimes you can follow through with a smash attack afterwards.

I've found two situations where his ground dash is nice... at certain lowish percents it seems possible to juggle someone across the stage with dash-->dash attack-->dash-->dash attack. Also ground dashing is good for chasing someone off the ledge, because then you get all the momentum but keep an aerial dash attack for getting back.

My biggest issue with him I think is his grab... the animation is really awkward and the range sucks more than it should. I know that it's a holdover from Link. (down throw is awesome though) Other than that... his fully charged gun is pretty disappointing I guess. Can't get anything closer to samus?

 

[toddtj]

EDIT: By the way, does anyone have any specific matchup data they could contribute? I'd like to know matchups that are very far in Zero's favor, or the other way around. Matchup data on less drastic or even matchups is also useful.

I don't have anyone one of real merit to test him against(and the AI still thinks I'm link), but in general, zero simply toys with any heavy I've used him against. His speed keeps them occupied and I have no problem building damage. The KO is sometimes difficult, but a well placed spike from his second jab or forward-tilt often does the trick. No one has mentioned the edgeguarding potential of Zero's forward-tilt, yet. It completely destroys some characters- Bowser, for example.

His ground game is somewhat weak but IMO that's good for ballance.

I agree. Zero is really quite powerful. In the right hands it's possible he could be overpowered, but I'm not the right hands, so I can't say.

My biggest issue with him I think is his grab... the animation is really awkward and the range sucks more than it should.

This is only my biggest, and really, only issue. His grab seems completely worthless, to me, as I almost always miss for reasons I don't understand. It seems like the start up is slow- like he still has to wait for an invisible tether to hit his opponent before he grabs them. I've almost completely stopped using it.

Other than that... his fully charged gun is pretty disappointing I guess. Can't get anything closer to samus?

It is supposed to be that way. Other than in X3(when Zero is just plain cheating), the Z-buster is just plain pathetic.
It works well in brawl, anyway. It's not an X-buster- it's not supposed to be a kill shot.

I concur with everything you said about the Up+B, but I'm still thinkin' he doesn't need more KO power. So, I'm just going to go ahead and give his Up+B a weak spike.

I agree now, and awesome- this will be fun.

Make his Nair-Down slash spike.

I think this deserves consideration. It's a really cool move, but I more or less forgot it existed because I haven't found a use for it.
Even as an incredibly weak spike, however, it certainly does have the potential to be over powered.

 

[CyberKun]

For it seems the smaller the character, the more screwed Zero is.
Me vs lvl 9 Squirtle, I would get destroyed. They are too small for most of the air moves to hit normally and it is a big problem for Zero. Any large characters, Zero wins due to how much insane pressure he can give.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Zokay, since I'm too lazy to look through 50+pages, I'll just post stuff I've found about Zero's Unequipped Side-B.

So, as we all prolly know, you can cancel Zero's Unequipped Side-B by crouching. This means that it behaves like a dash. If you cancel it at the earliest possible moment by crouching, and then you release the crouch into a dash, you'll keep a lot of the boost in your normal dash.

Another cool thing to do is to "B-reverse" it. What you basically do is use his UESB, but roll the control stick down the to the opposite direction. So think "moonwalk". It gives Zero get a lagless turnaround boost into his normal dash. Pretty neat IMO.

Don't know what good it would do, since all the actions you can do in his bossted dash are the same as in his normal UESB, but I think it's interesting nevertheless.

 

[digiholic]

It is supposed to be that way. Other than in X3(when Zero is just plain cheating), the Z-buster is just plain pathetic.

What about X1, before he even got his sword? He blew off Vile's Ride Armor arm with a half charged shot!



Back to the PSA character for a bit, I think Zero really needs a spike. His aerial mobility is such that he could really make good use of it. It would probably be kind of broken, though.

 

[Eldiran]

Sad thing is it is not and there in lies the problem (still better to short hop + crash into them or fly over them while doing damage instead of running into them dealing no damage at 1/2 the speed). There is no situation to not use the air versions of Zero's moves. His ground B moves are vastly inferior to his air ones, except neutral B for obvious reasons.

Actually, a ground dash -> grab does potentially more damage than any of his aerials, particularly if you can get in a pummel. Dash attack isn't too shabby either at 10% -- better than Nair.

As for specials that are useful on the ground -- personally I think that Up+B is the only one truly useless on the ground.

As for Zero match up's he fails vs characters that rely on a ground game (Since Zero's ground game sucks), or can survive on high damage normally. So far he only seems to excel vs things that have a ground game just as bad as him, since there is not really much that can rival Zero Air game currently.

This is likely true.

His ground game is somewhat weak but IMO that's good for ballance. (like jigglypuff, powerful air game, weak ground) His forward and down smashes have somewhat weak range but that's a good thing. Still some of his ground attacks work well in conjunction with his aerial game. Air dashing with fair or nair into an opponent and then doing a forward tilt or neutral jab combo as you slide along the ground can be an effective combo, sometimes you can follow through with a smash attack afterwards.

I've found two situations where his ground dash is nice... at certain lowish percents it seems possible to juggle someone across the stage with dash-->dash attack-->dash-->dash attack. Also ground dashing is good for chasing someone off the ledge, because then you get all the momentum but keep an aerial dash attack for getting back.

My biggest issue with him I think is his grab... the animation is really awkward and the range sucks more than it should. I know that it's a holdover from Link. (down throw is awesome though) Other than that... his fully charged gun is pretty disappointing I guess. Can't get anything closer to samus?

That's all pretty true. His grab isn't exceptional, but I think it's good enough to be useful, especially because you can dash into it. As todd mentioned, the buster is intentionally not that potent. I actually experimented for a bit with having the full charge be a charged-up super scope shot, but it was too powerful.

I don't have anyone one of real merit to test him against(and the AI still thinks I'm link), but in general, zero simply toys with any heavy I've used him against. His speed keeps them occupied and I have no problem building damage. The KO is sometimes difficult, but a well placed spike from his second jab or forward-tilt often does the trick. No one has mentioned the edgeguarding potential of Zero's forward-tilt, yet. It completely destroys some characters- Bowser, for example.

I agree. Zero is really quite powerful. In the right hands it's possible he could be overpowered, but I'm not the right hands, so I can't say.

This is only my biggest, and really, only issue. His grab seems completely worthless, to me, as I almost always miss for reasons I don't understand. It seems like the start up is slow- like he still has to wait for an invisible tether to hit his opponent before he grabs them. I've almost completely stopped using it.

I think this deserves consideration. It's a really cool move, but I more or less forgot it existed because I haven't found a use for it.
Even as an incredibly weak spike, however, it certainly does have the potential to be over powered.

Indeed, I'm also afraid of Zero's potential. I know I'm not the best at abusing characters, so I have to expect people are going to put my characters to better use than I can. As for his grab... it is a tad slow (2 frames slower than Ganondorf's) but it's not that bad for startup. It is also a little laggy, but not exceptionally. It's range isn't that bad, it just looks weird. So basically it's just a slightly below-average grab. He can definitely land it, though, and with adequate rewards for doing so.

I admit, I am hesitant about making his nair-down a spike.

For it seems the smaller the character, the more screwed Zero is.
Me vs lvl 9 Squirtle, I would get destroyed. They are too small for most of the air moves to hit normally and it is a big problem for Zero. Any large characters, Zero wins due to how much insane pressure he can give.

Sounds pretty reasonable... though I don't think there's anything Nair can't hit

So, as we all prolly know, you can cancel Zero's Unequipped Side-B by crouching. This means that it behaves like a dash. If you cancel it at the earliest possible moment by crouching, and then you release the crouch into a dash, you'll keep a lot of the boost in your normal dash.

Another cool thing to do is to "B-reverse" it. What you basically do is use his UESB, but roll the control stick down the to the opposite direction. So think "moonwalk". It gives Zero get a lagless turnaround boost into his normal dash. Pretty neat IMO.

Don't know what good it would do, since all the actions you can do in his bossted dash are the same as in his normal UESB, but I think it's interesting nevertheless.

That sounds rather interesting. Do you use B+?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Yes, I do. Does BBrawl have crouch cancel? I was just wondering.

 

[Eldiran]

Yes, I do. Does BBrawl have crouch cancel? I was just wondering.

Yes. Brawl+ has different momentum transfer mechanics, though. Trying to do what you described. Zero can do a ton of weird looking things with his dash crouch cancel, so it's hard to tell exactly which were the things you were referring to -- though I can definitely pull off a turnaround Side+B on the ground (Zero dashes backwards for a split second and then dashes forward). I also rememebered one other shenanigan Zero can do. If you hold the joystick at the right diagonal-downward angle, and mash the Dash button, Zero will do a sort of frantic run that looks kind of messed up. I can't tell if it's useful or not. Either way it looks pretty dumb.

About the Up+B spike... I'm pondering the idea of giving Zero back his Up+B if he hits someone with the spiking flame jets. Mostly 'cause it'd be cool. What say you all?

 

[LordshadowRagnarok]

Yes. Brawl+ has different momentum transfer mechanics, though. Trying to do what you described. Zero can do a ton of weird looking things with his dash crouch cancel, so it's hard to tell exactly which were the things you were referring to -- though I can definitely pull off a turnaround Side+B on the ground (Zero dashes backwards for a split second and then dashes forward). I also rememebered one other shenanigan Zero can do. If you hold the joystick at the right diagonal-downward angle, and mash the Dash button, Zero will do a sort of frantic run that looks kind of messed up. I can't tell if it's useful or not. Either way it looks pretty dumb.

About the Up+B spike... I'm pondering the idea of giving Zero back his Up+B if he hits someone with the spiking flame jets. Mostly 'cause it'd be cool. What say you all?

To have it be used offensively, that would kind of be necessary, otherwise you'd likely be suiciding to spike someone if they're at the wrong angle.

 

[Zeruel21]

About the Up+B spike... I'm pondering the idea of giving Zero back his Up+B if he hits someone with the spiking flame jets. Mostly 'cause it'd be cool. What say you all?

That's kind of the same as making it a really high footstool. I'm a bit hesitant to accept this, as it may make it too easy for him to gimp someone by using it in any situation and still being able to recover easily.

 

[Joshua368]

Yeah, spiking someone over the edge should be somewhat risky. His air dash and tether give him adequate tools to recover after a spike... it doesn't need to be made a lot less risky.

Not a high priority now of course, but do you think at some point you'll plan on getting a custom name/portrait/etc (CSP) for him? Or is that never something you'll want to bother with?

 

[Kitamerby]

How about... Chargable Boomerang Shield Toss?
=D

Charged up would toss it and have it spin vertically like in MMZ. Maybe it would follow floors/walls for a set distance.

Just a little fun thing to consider. =D

 

[Oni K4ge]

How about... Chargable Boomerang Shield Toss?
=D

Charged up would toss it and have it spin vertically like in MMZ. Maybe it would follow floors/walls for a set distance.

Just a little fun thing to consider. =D

that would require article editing. are you up to the challenge, Eldiran? Also;
a good thing to do to the OP is list a bunch of good combos, almost like a how-to for Zero lol. I think it would be cool. I'm also all for that giving him back his Up-B after connecting with the spiking flame jets.

 

[Eldiran]

Yeah, in the end I've decided that having Up+B restore would make footstool jumping a bit too redundant. I'm just going to have the spiking flame.

@Joshua: I don't personally use CSPs, since I have a custom CSS, making it difficult. Also, I'm certain someone has already made a CSP for Zero at some point, considering the texture has been out and about for a long time now.

that would require article editing. are you up to the challenge, Eldiran? Also;
a good thing to do to the OP is list a bunch of good combos, almost like a how-to for Zero lol. I think it would be cool. I'm also all for that giving him back his Up-B after connecting with the spiking flame jets.

Heh, I'm afraid I'm not up to that challenge. I just tried making the boomerang's damage reliant on a variable, which failed, so I definitely don't know how to change more complicated things than that.

 

[Oni K4ge]

Yeah, in the end I've decided that having Up+B restore would make footstool jumping a bit too redundant. I'm just going to have the spiking flame.

@Joshua: I don't personally use CSPs, since I have a custom CSS, making it difficult. Also, I'm certain someone has already made a CSP for Zero at some point, considering the texture has been out and about for a long time now.



Heh, I'm afraid I'm not up to that challenge. I just tried making the boomerang's damage reliant on a variable, which failed, so I definitely don't know how to change more complicated things than that.

Ah, yes... I see. Hah, yeah, I haven't the slightest clue on hexing for Brawl. The only hexing I ever do is when I want to modify something in Ocarina of Time or other N64 games, and I need to do it the complicated way...

 

[ChronicleX]

Actually, a ground dash -> grab does potentially more damage than any of his aerials, particularly if you can get in a pummel. Dash attack isn't too shabby either at 10% -- better than Nair.

As for specials that are useful on the ground -- personally I think that Up+B is the only one truly useless on the ground.

Grab -> Dash is worthless when you could do SHD -> Nair -> DI -> Grab. Safer, does more damage and cannot be spot dodged. Ground dash is fail no matter what you say, because with short hops you can chain Nair into pretty much anything, including another Nair.

 

[toddtj]

Dash attack isn't too shabby either at 10% -- better than Nair.

It is better damage, yes, but Chronicle is correct that you cannot combo it. Perhaps it's knock back could be increased or become a set knock back so one could capitalize on it?

What about X1, before he even got his sword? He blew off Vile's Ride Armor arm with a half charged shot!

X1? Look at X3. He just plain cheats in X3, but he's not supposed to be balanced then. Look at X5, where he is balanced, and lol at his amazing Z-buster.
Eldiran's reincarnation of it is perfect.

 

[Eldiran]

Grab -> Dash is worthless when you could do SHD -> Nair -> DI -> Grab. Safer, does more damage and cannot be spot dodged. Ground dash is fail no matter what you say, because with short hops you can chain Nair into pretty much anything, including another Nair.

If Nair -> whatever is truly reliable, then yeah, that would be the better option. However, I still maintain that the ground dash is worth something for the 10 or so frame advantage it gives.

Honestly, I have to wonder if Zero is broken in Brawl+. It sounds like it from what he can do -- hopefully I fixed the ability to Nair -> Dsmash, at least.

Dash attack in its current form could probably combo into dash -> dash attack at low percents.

 

[CyberKun]

Dash attack in its current form could probably combo into dash -> dash attack at low percents.

On the bigger characters, yes. When they heavy characters starts to take moderate amounts of damage, you can combo like this. dash > dash attack > dash off stage > hit with sideAir > airdash > sideAir now you have gimped and pray you can recover.

Also can you fix fast falling? Once you start to fast fall you can't slow down and I die like that too much.

 

[Wave⁂]

Feedback needed? Mkay.

Zero's fully charge neutral B is a bit underwhelming.
Fsmash just looks weird. He swings the blade so slowly, it doesn't look like it could hurt anything. Perhaps speed up the attacking animation, if possible?
Dair needs to have some redeeming quality. At the moment, it does almost no damage, has little knockback, and has almost no combo potential.


Wisp is my second favorite PSA. Floaty + 9 jumps + high aerial mobility = awesome.

Logically speaking, you should be able to slide fairly far when usmashing out of a dash, considering how he's a floating ball of... something. It might be a bit broken, considering the usmash's huge (comparatively) disjointed hitbox. But it'd also be really awesome.

<3 Zero and Wisp! Thanks Eldiran!

 

[Megaman X]

Actually I thought charge B was a bit too good in 1.1. Not sure if Eldiran changed it in 1.2, but 1.1 definitely felt too good for a double firing projectile with optional persistent boomerang backup.

 

[Eldiran]

On the bigger characters, yes. When they heavy characters starts to take moderate amounts of damage, you can combo like this. dash > dash attack > dash off stage > hit with sideAir > airdash > sideAir now you have gimped and pray you can recover.

Also can you fix fast falling? Once you start to fast fall you can't slow down and I die like that too much.

Sounds adequately risky.

How do you mean regarding the fastfalling? That's the same as it is for every character.

Feedback needed? Mkay.

Zero's fully charge neutral B is a bit underwhelming.
Fsmash just looks weird. He swings the blade so slowly, it doesn't look like it could hurt anything. Perhaps speed up the attacking animation, if possible?
Dair needs to have some redeeming quality. At the moment, it does almost no damage, has little knockback, and has almost no combo potential.

Wisp is my second favorite PSA. Floaty + 9 jumps + high aerial mobility = awesome.

Logically speaking, you should be able to slide fairly far when usmashing out of a dash, considering how he's a floating ball of... something. It might be a bit broken, considering the usmash's huge (comparatively) disjointed hitbox. But it'd also be really awesome.

<3 Zero and Wisp! Thanks Eldiran!

Thanks! Good feedback. Are you using version 1.2? Fsmash is faster in that version. Also I think it's worthwhile to point out that with an un-extended thrust, Dair can potentially do 15%.

Wisp is thiiiis close to getting a truck-full of changes. And buffs. It'll be cool.

@Megaman X: 1.2 and 1.1's busters are the same. A successful double-shot can do 12%, barring stale moves (it even affects items!).

 

[LordshadowRagnarok]

Eldiran, I have a couple things regarding the dair:
1) Way too landing laggy. If they shield it or spot dodge it, Zero is sure to get punished for it. It's really not worth the risk when you can do two dashing fairs and get the same results safer, so, what was said about it needing something, I agree with. Less landing lag or like a 2% damage buff would be nice.
2) All too often the following scenario occurs. Recover, Dair onto an opponent, Boing boing, fall over the edge jumpless. Any chance that hitting something with his dair could restore his up-B.

 

[Xeial]

OK, I've finally gotten the opportunity to do some play-testing with v1.2 (Gah... work sucks...)

I'm using the B+ Version, btw.

Dair I find to actually have some decent combo potential. The two bouncing strikes can be immediately followed with nair/fair/bair depending upon spacing or opponent DI. Nair I prefer, simply because you can continue the combo into Nair-down.

Zair seems to have gotten a bad rap so far, but it has its uses. Zair's auto-canceling and the fact that it draws the opponent in serves as a very reliable grab setup if spaced correctly. Perhaps a very small amount of hitstun would silence gripes from other players, but I'm ambivalent either way.

I've been reading the debate for the usefulness of short-hop dash and grounded dash, and I'm surprised no other B+ players have mentioned the Dash-Jump. To perform, start a grounded Dash and immediately tap jump. You will jump, retaining the ability to Air-Dash, while flying forward with the momentum from the initial grounded dash. If short-hopped, you can perform a perfectly auto-canceled Nair. This also makes leaping off of the stage to gimp a good deal safer, as the angle of approach is less oblique, and you can still side-dash to return to the stage before using Up-B/Tether.

I still find myself avoiding FSmash and USmash. The start-up time combined with relatively low KBG just doesn't warrant their use when other moves could be used. I find my most reliable grounded killing tool is a held FTilt, as it kills a tad later, but with better coverage and start-up.

Speaking of FTilt, it absolutely destroys characters with bad vertical recovery. Woe betide a Bowser, DK, Spacey or Earthbound character trying to recover against Zero (Below the stage.)

I've been experimenting with Crouch-Canceling out of Dash. DSmash seems to be the most logical choice, but If DTilt had much faster start-up, I think it would lend a good use to an underrated move. In fact, I really haven't seen much discussion regarding DTilt in the thread so far... what's up with that? DTilt has so much potential, since it pops the opponent up vertically. I would speed up the initial swipe, but keep the KBG pretty low. Just a suggestion.

I'd also really like to talk about Ryuenjin and Raijingeki. I love the concept behind these moves, but at the same time, I have almost never had the chance to use them in a serious match. I would much rather see these moves serve a real purpose in Zero's game than have them as flashy moves you see once in a blue moon.

Would it be possible to change their inputs? Ryuenjin could be an Angled-Up FSmash, and Raijingeki could be angled down. Give Ryuenjin comboing hits with decent BKB on the final strike, and Raijingeki could have very little BKB, but could induce a stun effect like ZSS. To balance this, give normal FSmash less start-up so it actually sees use. Now, I'm not talking like Marth's FSmash here, just a little bit faster to facilitate a decent combo-ender.

That's all I can think of for now... I'm going to bring some match-up data to the table when I get the chance. Hopefully I'll be able to post tonight.

Eldiran, thank you for being so open to player feedback. I hope I've helped.

~X

 

[Eldiran]

Eldiran, I have a couple things regarding the dair:
1) Way too landing laggy. If they shield it or spot dodge it, Zero is sure to get punished for it. It's really not worth the risk when you can do two dashing fairs and get the same results safer, so, what was said about it needing something, I agree with. Less landing lag or like a 2% damage buff would be nice.
2) All too often the following scenario occurs. Recover, Dair onto an opponent, Boing boing, fall over the edge jumpless. Any chance that hitting something with his dair could restore his up-B.

Yeah, Dair (vBrawl version) is incredibly laggy on landing -- moreso even than Link's. Basically, the idea is that you have to usually be careful to auto-cancel it. This makes fastfalling with it a real risk. I haven't had much trouble recovering though, but I suppose I probably avoid using Dair on the way back onstage for that reason. These are good ideas though.

Dair I find to actually have some decent combo potential. The two bouncing strikes can be immediately followed with nair/fair/bair depending upon spacing or opponent DI. Nair I prefer, simply because you can continue the combo into Nair-down.

Zair seems to have gotten a bad rap so far, but it has its uses. Zair's auto-canceling and the fact that it draws the opponent in serves as a very reliable grab setup if spaced correctly. Perhaps a very small amount of hitstun would silence gripes from other players, but I'm ambivalent either way.

I've been reading the debate for the usefulness of short-hop dash and grounded dash, and I'm surprised no other B+ players have mentioned the Dash-Jump. To perform, start a grounded Dash and immediately tap jump. You will jump, retaining the ability to Air-Dash, while flying forward with the momentum from the initial grounded dash. If short-hopped, you can perform a perfectly auto-canceled Nair. This also makes leaping off of the stage to gimp a good deal safer, as the angle of approach is less oblique, and you can still side-dash to return to the stage before using Up-B/Tether.

I still find myself avoiding FSmash and USmash. The start-up time combined with relatively low KBG just doesn't warrant their use when other moves could be used. I find my most reliable grounded killing tool is a held FTilt, as it kills a tad later, but with better coverage and start-up.

Speaking of FTilt, it absolutely destroys characters with bad vertical recovery. Woe betide a Bowser, DK, Spacey or Earthbound character trying to recover against Zero (Below the stage.)

I've been experimenting with Crouch-Canceling out of Dash. DSmash seems to be the most logical choice, but If DTilt had much faster start-up, I think it would lend a good use to an underrated move. In fact, I really haven't seen much discussion regarding DTilt in the thread so far... what's up with that? DTilt has so much potential, since it pops the opponent up vertically. I would speed up the initial swipe, but keep the KBG pretty low. Just a suggestion.

I'd also really like to talk about Ryuenjin and Raijingeki. I love the concept behind these moves, but at the same time, I have almost never had the chance to use them in a serious match. I would much rather see these moves serve a real purpose in Zero's game than have them as flashy moves you see once in a blue moon.

Would it be possible to change their inputs? Ryuenjin could be an Angled-Up FSmash, and Raijingeki could be angled down. Give Ryuenjin comboing hits with decent BKB on the final strike, and Raijingeki could have very little BKB, but could induce a stun effect like ZSS. To balance this, give normal FSmash less start-up so it actually sees use. Now, I'm not talking like Marth's FSmash here, just a little bit faster to facilitate a decent combo-ender.

That's all I can think of for now... I'm going to bring some match-up data to the table when I get the chance. Hopefully I'll be able to post tonight.

Eldiran, thank you for being so open to player feedback. I hope I've helped.

~X

Thanks for the input! This is good stuff. I'm glad you find Dair and Zair (and dash jump) useful -- I know GHNeko had a lot of fun comboing Dair -> Dair (he posted a vid of it some pages back). Fsmash and Usmash are admittedly not easy to land, but they should still have good use; in my experience, they kill almost 100% earlier than Ftilt thrust does.

Ftilt's spin no doubt is incredible in Brawl+, due to no ledgesnapping. Is it too potent, do you think? As for Dtilt, that move could probably use some extra speed.

Ryuenjin is admittedly lacking. I have yet to land it on a real opponent. Raijingeki, however, can be useful, if only to protect yourself from punishment when overcharging an Fsmash. I find it can catch people off guard at times, as well.

Match-up data would be excellent. Thanks again for the feedback; posts like these are really the only way I know Zero's doing alright. (There's quite a dearth of people that I can play against around here.)

I'm getting a lot of good ideas in these posts -- I'd implement many of them, but I think Zero's potential is quite high in his current iteration. At this point, it'd be best if I made changes based on how it influences his good and bad matchups.

 

[bboynotbgirl]

After playing as zero for a while i notice that some animations seem kind of awkward. Like the upslash from the jab combo. he seems kind of stiff when he does it. and the forward smash doesn't look toopowerful since it is his tilt animation. I would suggest animation swaps since it can be done now. but its all up to you!

 

[DeltaV]

Eldiran, could you please make wisp able to hold items? coz i dont know why a plasma ball shouldnt be able to pull in objects with its powers...and because it is really bad to not be able to use items....

 

[DarkISDA]

I don't know if it's a bug or on purpose, but sometimes, when I do a non charge down smash (with Zero) it wont jump, leading to another mvoe like up smash, for a really powerful combo/finisher (Vbrawl version). It seems to happen when I'm holding down, but not all the time, so I was wondering if this was on purpose or anything? ;o

 

[toddtj]

Ryuenjin is admittedly lacking. I have yet to land it on a real opponent.

Even if you do:

Full charge cancel kills at 68.
Ryuenjin kills at 135...

No charge kills at 106...

>.>

Ryuenjin also only does 18(full contact) where as a full charged cancel does 22.

This means that it's only benefit is its increased/unexpected range, which you admit hasn't helped you make contact even once- and frankly, even if contact is made, is nearly worthless compared to the effort it took to achieve this.

Ryuenjin should either be very damaging, very hard hitting, or easier to land/achieve.



EDIT:

I don't know if it's a bug or on purpose, but sometimes, when I do a non charge down smash (with Zero) it wont jump, leading to another mvoe like up smash, for a really powerful combo/finisher (Vbrawl version). It seems to happen when I'm holding down, but not all the time, so I was wondering if this was on purpose or anything? ;o

I haven't been able to replicate this.



EDITEDIT: Also, has it been noted yet that one can combo nair into down nair and more than double the damage of the move? I believe it has, but I wanted to make sure that this was/is intended.

 

[CyberKun]

EDITEDIT: Also, has it been noted yet that one can combo nair into down nair and more than double the damage of the move? I believe it has, but I wanted to make sure that this was/is intended.

If you are lucky/skilled, you can combo three times or MOREEE!

 

[FireRed]

Uair could use more KB, Bair too. Someone cmplained about an issue with Ftilt's 'flicking' reach being able to hit tethers before they get to the stage. Haven't witnessed it.

Good balance. Fun to play. Lacks killing power save on the ground.

Edit: Sorry. B+ notes. Zero's opponents regularly last until around 170%.

 

[digiholic]

Good news for aynone looking to make Zero look more legitimate next to the rest of the roster. I have compiled and created various files to completely replace Link with Zero (except the announcer, I'll do that once sound effect hacking becomes a reality)

This includes four new edits of Dhragen's Zero, making one for every color of Link. Also included are CSPs and Battle Portraits for ALL Zero costumes, a Character Select screen portrait, all graphical names that say "Link" changed to say "Zero", and even new Stock Sprites.

If I've forgotten anything, let me know. I probably made it, but forgot to put it in the .rar.

Download:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ygazzyzajmn

 

[Zeruel21]

Playing in slow motion, Uair looks really weird. Zero seems to try to swing a few times, then finally does. Don't know if this is a glitch or just the animation.

 

[Xeial]

Thanks for the input! This is good stuff. I'm glad you find Dair and Zair (and dash jump) useful -- I know GHNeko had a lot of fun comboing Dair -> Dair (he posted a vid of it some pages back). Fsmash and Usmash are admittedly not easy to land, but they should still have good use; in my experience, they kill almost 100% earlier than Ftilt thrust does.

The thrust has a great deal less BKB, but the low angle it sends an opponent away at makes it a versatile killing tool. Even if they aren't at a percentage to kill outright, it sets up nicely for a gimp kill.

Ftilt's spin no doubt is incredible in Brawl+, due to no ledgesnapping. Is it too potent, do you think? As for Dtilt, that move could probably use some extra speed.

Again, Ftilt I find to be more versatile the more I play. I wouldn't say it was too powerful though. It definitely makes your opponent worry about sweet-spotting their recovery, which is good in my book. If you sped up Dtilt, it would make for a great tech-chase and shield-poke tool, especially when paired with a Crouch-Canceled dash.

Ryuenjin is admittedly lacking. I have yet to land it on a real opponent. Raijingeki, however, can be useful, if only to protect yourself from punishment when overcharging an Fsmash. I find it can catch people off guard at times, as well.

Raijingeki gets used during edgeguards, and that's about it for me. I do really think that theses two moves would serve better as tactical choices instead of just souped up versions. Raijingeki as a low BKB stun-property move would be a perfect addition to the defensive game when played with the shield. As for Ryuenjin, if it was changed to Up-FSmash, it would be useful for intercepting Dair-happy opponents. (Such as Meta-Knight.)

Match-up data would be excellent. Thanks again for the feedback; posts like these are really the only way I know Zero's doing alright. (There's quite a dearth of people that I can play against around here.)

I've been really trying to get a feel for which characters exploit his weaknesses most keenly. So far, the worst match-ups I've fought are Marth, MK, and Toon Link. (Again, these are unchanged .pacs for B+ 5.0 RC1). I'm still putting together the data, but I'll probably talk about these three characters first.

I'm getting a lot of good ideas in these posts -- I'd implement many of them, but I think Zero's potential is quite high in his current iteration. At this point, it'd be best if I made changes based on how it influences his good and bad matchups.

I will say that his performance has increased in v1.2 by a good deal, but I still feel that his defensive game needs to be stronger to give him balance. The most pressing concerns are still Ryuenjin and Raijingeki and how they will fit into his game at all in their current state. Next would be low functionality of Dtilt. After that, I see no other issues that need addressing that can't be overcome with skill and practice.

 

[Eldiran]

After playing as zero for a while i notice that some animations seem kind of awkward. Like the upslash from the jab combo. he seems kind of stiff when he does it. and the forward smash doesn't look toopowerful since it is his tilt animation. I would suggest animation swaps since it can be done now. but its all up to you!

Yeah, the jab up slash looks awkward because I had to hack it together from one of his Win animations. I actually really like his Fsmash animation though. (It's almost exactly like his slash in X3). I think the up-jab would look more awkward if I tried replacing the animation, particularly because Link (and subsequently Zero) is left-handed.

Eldiran, could you please make wisp able to hold items? coz i dont know why a plasma ball shouldnt be able to pull in objects with its powers...and because it is really bad to not be able to use items....

That is actually planned for the next version. It was a technical limitation.

I don't know if it's a bug or on purpose, but sometimes, when I do a non charge down smash (with Zero) it wont jump, leading to another mvoe like up smash, for a really powerful combo/finisher (Vbrawl version). It seems to happen when I'm holding down, but not all the time, so I was wondering if this was on purpose or anything? ;o

You can cancel the Dsmash into a Usmash, aye. It shouldn't do anything when you hold down, though.

Even if you do:

Full charge cancel kills at 68.
Ryuenjin kills at 135...

No charge kills at 106...

>.>

Ryuenjin also only does 18(full contact) where as a full charged cancel does 22.

This means that it's only benefit is its increased/unexpected range, which you admit hasn't helped you make contact even once- and frankly, even if contact is made, is nearly worthless compared to the effort it took to achieve this.

Ryuenjin should either be very damaging, very hard hitting, or easier to land/achieve.

Yeah, those numbers really don't compare favorably... thank you for showing me this (I didn't check exactly when Ryuenjin kills before), as now I think I'll have to improve it or change it in some way.

EDITEDIT: Also, has it been noted yet that one can combo nair into down nair and more than double the damage of the move? I believe it has, but I wanted to make sure that this was/is intended.

That is intended, yes. It should only be possible at low percents, though.

Uair could use more KB, Bair too. Someone cmplained about an issue with Ftilt's 'flicking' reach being able to hit tethers before they get to the stage. Haven't witnessed it.

Good balance. Fun to play. Lacks killing power save on the ground.

Edit: Sorry. B+ notes. Zero's opponents regularly last until around 170%.

Thanks. Lasting that long is typical against Zero, and is necessary otherwise Zero would be absurdly good. (Zero himself can often last that long, considering how hard he is to solidly hit!)

Good news for aynone looking to make Zero look more legitimate next to the rest of the roster. I have compiled and created various files to completely replace Link with Zero (except the announcer, I'll do that once sound effect hacking becomes a reality)

This includes four new edits of Dhragen's Zero, making one for every color of Link. Also included are CSPs and Battle Portraits for ALL Zero costumes, a Character Select screen portrait, all graphical names that say "Link" changed to say "Zero", and even new Stock Sprites.

If I've forgotten anything, let me know. I probably made it, but forgot to put it in the .rar.

Download:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ygazzyzajmn

Wow, very nice! Good job on the textures -- you even kept the shield the proper green color. I'm impressed. Pity custom CSSes and CSPs don't mix, or I'd try that too.. I'll post this in the OP soon.

Playing in slow motion, Uair looks really weird. Zero seems to try to swing a few times, then finally does. Don't know if this is a glitch or just the animation.

Yep. The base animation for Uair is actually Link's Up+B. I sped it up to skip those parts.

The thrust has a great deal less BKB, but the low angle it sends an opponent away at makes it a versatile killing tool. Even if they aren't at a percentage to kill outright, it sets up nicely for a gimp kill.

Again, Ftilt I find to be more versatile the more I play. I wouldn't say it was too powerful though. It definitely makes your opponent worry about sweet-spotting their recovery, which is good in my book. If you sped up Dtilt, it would make for a great tech-chase and shield-poke tool, especially when paired with a Crouch-Canceled dash.

Raijingeki gets used during edgeguards, and that's about it for me. I do really think that theses two moves would serve better as tactical choices instead of just souped up versions. Raijingeki as a low BKB stun-property move would be a perfect addition to the defensive game when played with the shield. As for Ryuenjin, if it was changed to Up-FSmash, it would be useful for intercepting Dair-happy opponents. (Such as Meta-Knight.)

I've been really trying to get a feel for which characters exploit his weaknesses most keenly. So far, the worst match-ups I've fought are Marth, MK, and Toon Link. (Again, these are unchanged .pacs for B+ 5.0 RC1). I'm still putting together the data, but I'll probably talk about these three characters first.

I will say that his performance has increased in v1.2 by a good deal, but I still feel that his defensive game needs to be stronger to give him balance. The most pressing concerns are still Ryuenjin and Raijingeki and how they will fit into his game at all in their current state. Next would be low functionality of Dtilt. After that, I see no other issues that need addressing that can't be overcome with skill and practice.

Ah, I see. In B+ getting your opponent off the edge means more than in vBrawl, so I can see Ftilt being better. Dtilt speed up is still a nice idea, aye...

As for Raijingeki, I think I like the feel of it better as a fully-charged smash. Not to mention it would cheapen the Final Smash immensely to change it like that. It is a good idea though, as far as tactical improvements go ... but I'm not sure it's the direction I want to take Zero. Regardless, I am going to make Ryuenjin a little better.

Thank you for your efforts on getting data. It figures those three would cause the problems :/ I suppose MK and Marth are still close to the best in B+.

I'm currently considering an idea that would alleviate certain problems -- I'm thinking of making the close hit of the shield boomerang be damaging or low-angle enough to kill at high percents. This is the closest hit, so it's only if you strike a foe that's on top of you. This would give Zero a way to kill in air, as well as make the boomerang more useful.

 

[digiholic]

Wow, very nice! Good job on the textures -- you even kept the shield the proper green color. I'm impressed.

Actually, I think a few have shields colored to match their armor, depending on wether I edited them from Red Zero (Green Shield) or Black Zero (Black Shield) I mistakenly assumed all the shields were color matching, and made, I think, two with matching shields before I looked at Red Zero's files and realized they should all be green >_<

You'll also notice some Zeroes have duller swords and gray hair. These were the ones edited from Black Zero. Turns out Dhragen did more than recolor the armor with his Black Zero.

I'll fix these when I have the time, right now I'm working on a similar pack for Roy.

 

[bboynotbgirl]

lol wow eldrian i never noticed that they were both leftys! so i guess some swaps are out of the question then. I was hoping that the arc for the forward smash would be similar to ikes. oh well x]