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Eldiran's PSAs 'n' Stuff: Newest - Zero 1.4

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stRIP

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I've done a mm with a Crewmate last weekend, we played NTSC 5.0 the first time and we both used a char we have never used. I used Zero and he used Wisp


Im going to upload those matches later, feel free then to upload them to the op
 

NoBio

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...You ARE joking right buddy? Zero is just like Link in those regards...INCREDIBLY easy to kill XD
Zero's recovery is great, if your killing him easily then obviously the person your fighting isn't that great with his recovery.

You already can sideB out of SideB in one direction, do you mean sideB in one direction then sideB in the opposite direction? That would be awesome, that and dash dancing.

*looks forward to next update*

~NoTrace
 

NoBio

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A question too, what are some good approaches with Zero. He feels limited to do so at times. SideB > Nair gets predictable fast, what are some good ways to approach?

Also, I think Zero should walk and run just a little bit faster, he seems too slow, just look at the games he's in. Just my opinion.

~NoTrace
 

Eldiran

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so i take it these psa characters replace whoever you put them under entirely? or can i get it to stick under one model?
Sorry, but Zero replaces Link in his entirety.

when is wisp going to be updated?
I am currently stuck trying to get Jigglypuff's model to be invisible.

http://www.youtube.com/user/JustRiPing

The videos are gonny be uploaded in ~about an hour and a bit more.

Check it
Nice video! I'm impressed that Wisp was able to make a comeback. I was expecting Zero to win, but from that Uair I can tell she's more potent in Brawl+ than in vBrawl.

I'll probably put this video on the front page, if you don't mind.

A question too, what are some good approaches with Zero. He feels limited to do so at times. SideB > Nair gets predictable fast, what are some good ways to approach?

Also, I think Zero should walk and run just a little bit faster, he seems too slow, just look at the games he's in. Just my opinion.

~NoTrace
I've found that a grounded SideB to either dash attack or grab can mix it up. Bair is also not bad as a more cautious approach. And you can always Zair if you're at the right percents. And of course, Zero has projectiles to hassle with if that's an option.

He's actually an incredibly slow walker in the games he's in; his speed comes almost solely from dashing around.
 

Eldiran

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Ah, I see.

I'm thinking of making a video of the combos and set ups he has in Brawl+. He's crazy. (Like 0-100+% percent crazy under the right conditions.)

~NoTrace
Please do! I don't use Brawl+, so I have to rely on others' info when they tell me he can combo things into certain things. If you do, could you test and see if Nair -> Dsmash -> Nair -> Dsmash -> Etc is a reliable combo?
 

NoBio

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Please do! I don't use Brawl+, so I have to rely on others' info when they tell me he can combo things into certain things. If you do, could you test and see if Nair -> Dsmash -> Nair -> Dsmash -> Etc is a reliable combo?
No, its not. The enemy slides away, out of range of Dsmash.

Just ask if you need anything else tested. I'll make the video once I get something better to record with.

~NoTrace

Yes zero is very fun to use please make all your other characters this balanced. In Brawl plus he is so epic its like he was built for brawl plus. As trace said above he has combos from 0-100 and even 0-death adn there real hard to do so people wont say there broken.

~BioLink
 

stRIP

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Nope i dont mind it. There are going to be 2 more other videos, there were just some problems during the upload

Feel free to do it
 

goaliedude3919

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A couple things:
1: How do you cancel DSmash to USmash?

2. In the Wips update, will its shield shrink like everyone else's?

3. I fell like Zero's blaster could either do more or charge faster. Maybe make each superscope bullet do 2% instead of 1%? Especially since it's rare that all three will hit.

4. I also feel like Zero's shield could be more useful (although I do like the idea of it being a kill move at close quarters)
 

Zeruel21

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A couple things:
1: How do you cancel DSmash to USmash?
Just use a USmash right as Zero would be sent upward by the DSmash. Too early and nothing happens, too late and he jumps.

Although I bet you have greater concerns than SSE, I'd like to report that whenever Zero takes over for a defeated teammate or appears after entering a door, he seems to have some amount of forward momentum. It's really minor, but it almost killed me running some levels on Intense. Also, it may happen somewhere else.
 

NoBio

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A couple things:
1: How do you cancel DSmash to USmash?

2. In the Wips update, will its shield shrink like everyone else's?

3. I fell like Zero's blaster could either do more or charge faster. Maybe make each superscope bullet do 2% instead of 1%? Especially since it's rare that all three will hit.

4. I also feel like Zero's shield could be more useful (although I do like the idea of it being a kill move at close quarters)
Charge the blaster through out the match and use the shots for edgegaurding. The three normal shots arn't that useful most of the time I find but it murders characters like Fox, Falco, and Wolf because it hinders their recovery greatly.

Zero's shield can be used to combo actually, because it knocks the opponent to you, or behind you in some cases.

Oh yeah, Wisp's Uair combos heavy characters like nobodys business in Brawl+ but only to about 70+%, then its escapable.
 

DeltaV

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i think i can explain the hammer glitch now...wisp cant hold items cause it drops them. i think that if it grabs a hammer, it also drops it almost a split second after, causing an error.
 

Yunior597

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How can i make zero uses his normal sword? or remove it from the hand? i really dont like the sword in the hand i prefer normal style...
 

Eldiran

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No, its not. The enemy slides away, out of range of Dsmash.

Just ask if you need anything else tested. I'll make the video once I get something better to record with.

~NoTrace

Yes zero is very fun to use please make all your other characters this balanced. In Brawl plus he is so epic its like he was built for brawl plus. As trace said above he has combos from 0-100 and even 0-death adn there real hard to do so people wont say there broken.

~BioLink
Good to hear! Sounds like he's on the right track then.

2. In the Wips update, will its shield shrink like everyone else's?
Yep!

Oh yeah, Wisp's Uair combos heavy characters like nobodys business in Brawl+ but only to about 70+%, then its escapable.
I can tell from these videos -- I think that's probably something Wisp needs to survive. However, he is going to be much improved once I can fix the one problem.

i think i can explain the hammer glitch now...wisp cant hold items cause it drops them. i think that if it grabs a hammer, it also drops it almost a split second after, causing an error.
Pretty much. The next version of Wisp will be able to use items.

Although I bet you have greater concerns than SSE, I'd like to report that whenever Zero takes over for a defeated teammate or appears after entering a door, he seems to have some amount of forward momentum. It's really minor, but it almost killed me running some levels on Intense. Also, it may happen somewhere else.
This is true. It has to do with the momentum-tracking system I implemented; thankfully it shouldn't happen any time but when Zero is spawned in the air.

How can i make zero uses his normal sword? or remove it from the hand? i really dont like the sword in the hand i prefer normal style...
Sorry, but this isn't change-able. You'll have to deal with the way it is until I get a model hack for Zero, at which point I'll have him use his sword properly.

Good matches! Added to the Zero post!
 

moony098

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dude I may be just a download hacker but where do I find brawl+ gime a site or a link I just want to play as wisp
 

AtmaIllumina

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How do I install Wisp? I managed to get Zero working but Wisp is giving me a hard time. Does wisp have to be the only texture in the Jiggly folder? Great job btw.
 

Eldiran

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Wisp is not a texture; you have to rename the file to FitPurin.pac and put it in pf/fighter/purin.

@NoBio: that'll be fixed in the next version. Thanks for reminding me.
 

Secretchaos1

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I just finished playing as Zero and I have to say I lovez it XD. He's a bit slow but he makes up for it with his dash. I love how you encorporated so many moves so well and he didn't feel too over powered either. Very nice, I'll be using him for my Link moveset from now on.
 

Xeial

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Okay... So, still crunching numbers for moves at the moment. I've got some good stuff so far. (Sorry it took so long... work sucks.)

Zero actually has one good setup for his kill moves! A short hopped Nair out of Side-B travels extremely close to the ground and auto-cancels if done correctly. Combined with the slide on the ground after landing, FSmash and DSmash follow up very well. The approach isn't punishable upon shield because of momentum transfer, but many characters have reliable methods of shutting down, or at least interrupting the Nair approach, so I would still not consider it over-powered. The ability to smash in any direction during the slide after Nair is great though.

Lucario - Double Team, Nair, Utilt (Perfectly Spaced)

Meta Knight - Tornado, Shuttle Loop, Nair (Above), Dair (Above), Glair

Marth - Parry, Dancing Blade, Dolphin Slash (Initial Invulnerability frames)

Samus - Zair, Nair

Bowser - Nair,

Falco - Shine Throw, Dair (Above), Laser

Luigi - Tornado, Bair (Perfectly Spaced)

Peach - Toad Shield

Yoshi - Bair, Dair

Ike - Bair, Parry

(I will increase this list as more testing takes place.)

Really, the incredible amount of Side-B shenanigans are what give Zero the edge to compete. I've been trying to catalogue them all as I find them. I know some of these techniques are known to the majority of Zero players, but i figured this would serve as good reference for those just picking him up.

AIR
- In the air, changing the length of the dash by holding back can be interrupted by immediately pressing forward again, giving back full dash momentum.

- Fast-fall out of dash is fairly self-explanatory, more useful to abort an attack and reset for
spacing than to attack with IMO. Also, Fast-falling the dash immediately after execution will send Zero up at a steep angle roughly a quarter the distance of Up-B. Great mind-game potential and gives even more range to his vertical recovery.

GROUND
- The Dash-Jump. Incredibly useful for a number of reasons. Short-hopping the Dash-Jump into Nair is Zero's best approach option by far. Also, because the Side-B was initiated on the ground, you save your aerial side-B in case something goes awry. Great for leaping out off of the stage for a gimp kill.

- The Crouch-Canceled Dash. Wavedash anyone? While not able to change direction at quite the same speed, the CC-Dash supplies an incredible level of possibility to the creative and technical player. CC-Dash into jab combo, any smash, any tilt, shield, spot dodge, grab, another Dash, etc... I've employed this technique in more recent match tests, and like the Wavedash, it has become a mainstay of my spacing game. The balancing factor for this tool is interesting - Zero doesn't have a dash-dance, making his ground spacing game dependent upon this technique. Sadly, this further takes away from the usefulness of the Boomerang Shield.

With these techniques in hand, I would really have to say my opinion regarding Zero's kill potential has changed. His Smash attacks are still not stellar in comparison to other characters in regards to BKB and KBG, but with the ability to chip away at the opponent the way he can, and these new setups for his kill moves, I feel that he can really contend with the higher tiers. Certain battles are definitely slanted in the opponents favor, but Zero is never really left in a situation where no options are viable, especially with tools like the Crouch-Canceled Dash.

The only moves I feel still need some degree of tweaking at this point are Dtilt and maybe some slight Boomerang Shield improvements. (Which are already being discussed, so I digress.)

I know this has already been discussed, but it really seems like the only way to seamlessly
integrate Ryuenjin and Raijingeki into Zero's game would be to have some kind of flag to switch between normal F/USmash and the Final Smash versions. The Boomerang Shield equip/unequip could function this way, but it does seem a tad illogical. It would however, give Zero two distinct attack modes. A mobile damage racking machine, and a defensive power-hitter.

EDIT: Next post will have some good hard numbers for Smash Attack kill percentages. I've finally got some help to test with and without DI, but if anyone has any numbers already, PM me.
 

goaliedude3919

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Great stuff Xeial! I didn't know about some of that stuff. I'll definitely start using it in the future. Another "tachnique" that I have found very useful is that Zero can get opponents in a semi-dash attack lock using his ->B. Sine his dash is so quick, it's hard for the opponent to tech in time and you can usually get them across half the level, maybe even more. If I had a capture card, I'd give you guys some video, but alas, I do not.
 

stRIP

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Btw "Eldiran"

If you want any Videos of your NEW Characters, DOING A REAL MATCH just PM me or something, I will do it (:
 

Eldiran

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Okay... So, still crunching numbers for moves at the moment. I've got some good stuff so far. (Sorry it took so long... work sucks.)

[...]

The only moves I feel still need some degree of tweaking at this point are Dtilt and maybe some slight Boomerang Shield improvements. (Which are already being discussed, so I digress.)

I know this has already been discussed, but it really seems like the only way to seamlessly
integrate Ryuenjin and Raijingeki into Zero's game would be to have some kind of flag to switch between normal F/USmash and the Final Smash versions. The Boomerang Shield equip/unequip could function this way, but it does seem a tad illogical. It would however, give Zero two distinct attack modes. A mobile damage racking machine, and a defensive power-hitter.

EDIT: Next post will have some good hard numbers for Smash Attack kill percentages. I've finally got some help to test with and without DI, but if anyone has any numbers already, PM me.
Man, this is awesome stuff! Great work Xeial. It's really reassuring to read about all the potential Zero has... and all the potential ways of countering Zero other characters have. It is especially nice to hear that there are ways (though perhaps difficult) of overcoming his KOing weakness. I may even add these tactical tips to the front post, provided I can find a place to stick it.

His boomerang Shield is going to have some KO potential next version, so it ought to have some use yet. I think I'd rather keep Ryuenjin and Raijingeki in the minor roles they already play, for style and/or simplicity reasons.

I can only guess that the foes Zero has trouble with is mainly Marth, Metaknight, G&W, and their ilk, but do you happen to know any characters that Zero adeptly shuts down? I am hoping that Zero's weak kill potential should be enough to keep him from trashing the low-disjoint heavyweights, but I am still very wary about it. I am, in fact, considering a minor(-ish) change to Nair, making it deal less damage but identical knockback to foes when they are on the ground. That could hopefully help out the heavyweights without harming Zero's matchups against those who are aerially oriented (Marth, MK, G&W).

Btw "Eldiran"

If you want any Videos of your NEW Characters, DOING A REAL MATCH just PM me or something, I will do it (:
Thanks "stRIP"! :p

I'm certain I'll take you up on that offer at some point.
 

StreakRaiden

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Simply amazing...

I live for this kind of action; I hope to see some more awesome stuff in the future.

A Link PSA...This is the future.
 

Secretchaos1

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I've been playing around with Zero a lot (yeah I really like using him XD ) and I've noticed a pretty annoying glitch. His final smash can get interrupted very easily and when it does he either A. Freezes in the explosion causing pose or B. Doesn't get increased power/invincibility.
It's usually caused by either the floor breaking out while he uses the smash or being attacked or interrupted by some kind of item during the FS.
 

Eldiran

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Thank you StreakRaiden! I hope I get around to putting out more cool stuff.

I've been playing around with Zero a lot (yeah I really like using him XD ) and I've noticed a pretty annoying glitch. His final smash can get interrupted very easily and when it does he either A. Freezes in the explosion causing pose or B. Doesn't get increased power/invincibility.
It's usually caused by either the floor breaking out while he uses the smash or being attacked or interrupted by some kind of item during the FS.
Huh! That's odd; all the subactions involved with Zero's Final Smash have him Intangible (unable to be hit). So, the only possible interruption should be from the platform beneath him falling (which is something I should now fix -- thanks for the report!).

Anyway, there is a known glitch that wallsliding consumes the Smash Ball. That I cannae fix. But I have two questions: has Zero been hit out of the final smash? And, does the freezing occur only when the ground underneath him falls, or does it happen at other times? And what kind of item, exactly, causes interruptions? (Okay I guess that's three questions.)
 

Oni K4ge

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Well, I downloaded MegaMan Zero 1-3 to play on VBA (since I actually have MMZ4 as a cart) and just finished MMZ3 20 minutes ago. It seems that you have put all of his weapons to good use. Shield Boomerang, Chain Rod, Z Saber (Obviously lol), Z Buster... wait. Wheres mah Recoil Rod?

I see theres a kind of reference to them in the down smash, but... well, that doesnt act like the recoil rods. at all. maybe do something with them? I was thinking about a weapons cycling system, like taunting or something to change weapons, but now Im deciding against it because everything has a rightful place in the moveset. Except the recoil rods. But at least you referenced them. So perhaps do something with them?

Also, in MMZ and MMZX, Zero's aerial is both a spinning slash, but also if you do not press up/down, he just slashes in the air. Maybe something like that too? Not necessary, I only though of it. Otherwise, the only thing I could think of changing is the buster shot damage and just SLIGHTLY increasing the run speed. This is truly my favorite PSA character, not even joking. Keep up the good work Eldiran :)
 

God of Humility

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Well, I tried out Zero, and I must say, excellent job Eldiran. It's obvious you spent a lot of time on him.

But I think he is a bit too good at recovering. I mean, he has a side b, up b, and the grapple. Excluding the second jump, he has like 3 third jumps which are all refreshed if hit. He is very diffult to edgeguard. I think its to balance out his low killing power and/or speed, but I have failed to see a human Zero be edgeguarded.

But other than that, excellent job.
 

Eldiran

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Well, I downloaded MegaMan Zero 1-3 to play on VBA (since I actually have MMZ4 as a cart) and just finished MMZ3 20 minutes ago. It seems that you have put all of his weapons to good use. Shield Boomerang, Chain Rod, Z Saber (Obviously lol), Z Buster... wait. Wheres mah Recoil Rod?

I see theres a kind of reference to them in the down smash, but... well, that doesnt act like the recoil rods. at all. maybe do something with them? I was thinking about a weapons cycling system, like taunting or something to change weapons, but now Im deciding against it because everything has a rightful place in the moveset. Except the recoil rods. But at least you referenced them. So perhaps do something with them?

Also, in MMZ and MMZX, Zero's aerial is both a spinning slash, but also if you do not press up/down, he just slashes in the air. Maybe something like that too? Not necessary, I only though of it. Otherwise, the only thing I could think of changing is the buster shot damage and just SLIGHTLY increasing the run speed. This is truly my favorite PSA character, not even joking. Keep up the good work Eldiran :)
Thanks! Those are great games. You should play MMX1-4 next if you haven't :p They're even better. I know the recoil rods are an approximation (they don't actually make an explosion, etc) but that was the best way I could think of to incorporate them as an attack (given that at the time, I couldn't make animations). My memory may have failed me in some ways though when I recreated them.

I have Nair as it is for simplicity's sake (and because I probably misremembered how it works in the games :p ).

I am toying with the concept of making the final charge shot unique by replacing the arrow model and changing just about every attribute of the arrow. It wouldn't be that much more powerful... just much cooler. I have to think of something suitable to swap the arrow model with, though.

Well, I tried out Zero, and I must say, excellent job Eldiran. It's obvious you spent a lot of time on him.

But I think he is a bit too good at recovering. I mean, he has a side b, up b, and the grapple. Excluding the second jump, he has like 3 third jumps which are all refreshed if hit. He is very diffult to edgeguard. I think its to balance out his low killing power and/or speed, but I have failed to see a human Zero be edgeguarded.

But other than that, excellent job.
Thank you! Yes, Zero is very hard to edgeguard, as he has an incredible recovery. (Ironically he is also easy to self-destruct with.) I've left it as-is because it hasn't proven to be a balance issue yet... I'd imagine it would help Zero more against the agile edgeguarding crowd (team disjoint) than it would hurt the slowpokes' chances against him. Please let me know if there are any characters that just cannot overcome Zero. (This is a request I extend to everyone. I can deal with characters that Zero has trouble with, but I want to be sure Zero doesn't shut anyone down outright.)

One question, how were you able to create his side taunt?
Using BrawlBox, I replaced Navi with Link's model and changed his texture to pure red. Then I swapped Navi's animation with one of Link's.
 

Zeruel21

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I have Nair as it is for simplicity's sake (and because I probably misremembered how it works in the games :p ).
In MMX4, the circular slash is an automatic ability acquired Split Mushroom, so it isn't inaccurate. That's also the first time it appears.

I am toying with the concept of making the final charge shot unique by replacing the arrow model and changing just about every attribute of the arrow. It wouldn't be that much more powerful... just much cooler. I have to think of something suitable to swap the arrow model with, though.
This would be pretty cool, especially because it gives more incentive to actually charge to the second level rather than just using the first. Maybe something like X or Model X's second shot, with small effects around it to make it bigger? Adding a few Super Scope shots would work...

Either that or let him use a Zaneidan-style cutting wave projectile for the second one, like when fighting him in X2 or X5.
 
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