Air-camping isn't stalling.
With stalling, you're trying to make yourself unable to be hit. Stalling would be MKs infinite dimensional cape, Peach's bomber stall in Melee, Jiggs' rising Pound, etc. The only way to hit the opponent in these situations (if you can at all) is to force yourself to SD, and the opponent is still in the lead if they have a stock lead.
With air-camping, it's just like normal camping, except...in the air. Would you call Snake's grenade camping or Falco's laser camping stalling? No. Granted, that's a bad example because they're throwing out projectiles while air-campers like Wario and MK are trying to bait senseless or punishable approaches, but it's generally the same. You wouldn't call out a Marth who only does retreating F-airs for, "stalling," as they aren't stalling, they're just spacing and zoning themselves so well that aside from projectiles, they will rarely get hit and can predict the opponent.
tl;dr: Good spacing and zoning.
Projectiles and punishing predicted moves can punish it. It's difficult, but it's just like in any other situation where you're facing somebody with good zoning, like a Snake who's really good at keeping you out with his disjointed tilts and grenade camping. It's beatable. Read the jumps that MK has left, notice a Wario's DIing habits, do whatever that you'd do to beat any other character with really good zoning; it's just in the air.
Gonna reply to this farther down after Cirno's Quote, since its essentially the same statement.
I fail to see how someone in EDC can deliberately avoid an attack, because that would have to mean that the MKs opponent was trying to attack the MK while he wasn't visible, which doesn't work, and is really just his opponent's fault. The only time that should happen is if the opponent figures that the MK would try to use a regular DC into him (which is silly, given its start-up and cool-down frames), tries to punish where he would be, and the MK crosses up. Even THEN, it may still be punishable depending on what attack the opponent used. And if not, it's obvious that it was an EDC.
Looks like I was unclear this time. What I meant was using it as an escape tactic to avoid a easily punishable situation.
Rules that require someone to watch the game that essentially say, "This tactic is illegal," are either enforceable or not enforceable. I see the argument that EDC isn't enforceable, yet D3's infinite is. The reason I said that was because people use both arguments.
Either both are enforceable because both can be monitored/watched, or neither are enforceable because it would have to require a judge with every match at an MK or D3 on it to make sure that they didn't sneak away with a couple, or skip the replay.
If I Standing Infinite someone they could call a judge over and request the replay be saved. if I then skip the replay (and for some reason he does as well) then it could just be assumed i was hiding evidence that would DQ me and they can DQ. If they have a replay, as I said before it would be very obvious I cheated and I would get DQ'd.
Can't do that with EDC/IDC.
I wasn't talking of it being any less legal or bannable (I said multiple times in my other posts in this thread and in the MK ban thread that ANY extension of MKs dimensional cape is banworthy and it clearly says so in the rules, because it says that the glitch itself is banned, not the infinite stalling tactic, but the glitch itself).
Which is what I have been saying too. I guess I misread your argument and thought you were after something else.
My argument here though is HOW we go about banning it not whether or not we should since I think that argument has already been made.
I was using that example to counter your statement that a ban of EDC isn't enforcable while a ban of any other move is. People can get away with these things in tournament.
Like? DDD's infinite? Debunked already, got anything else?
"No Items" is technically a subjective rule because it's under the belief that items shouldn't be played in competitive gameplay. There is no official, clear-cut, no questions asked statement that says that "Items should always be banned." It was a decision made by the majority of the community and SBR and the TOs of tournament.
That wasn't where I was getting at at all nor was it a point I was trying to make, but you ignored the main point of my paragraph and instead targeted five words of my argument.
Note that subjective means opinionated, and objective means factually-based.
The decision to not let M2K and Armada play the 4th and 5th games of their set in Genesis had subjectivity in it. The fact that they even had a panel vote on the Dojo vs. DEHF match had subjectivity in it. The Magus DQ rule has subjectivity in it. The rule of Tournament Host X to DQ or not DQ player Y for being five and 1 second late to a pools match has subjectivity in it. Much tournament ruling is subjective, and EDC is not unique in this aspect.
OK I guess we misunderstood eachother again.
When I think of a subjective rule i'm thinking of rules which require a subjective ruling to be taken into effect. IE: Stalling which requires a judge to watch and decide whether a given player is stalling or just playing really defensively.
Rules which are not objective would be like "Items Off" which require no such "on the spot" judgement calls.
Your point was that planking was an MK tactic that we banned. It wasn't an MK tactic, as quite a few characters can do it as well. Simply because MK can arguably do it best, does not mean that it's his tactic.
It is a MK tactic. You can keep saying "GW can do it, Marth can do it etc etc" but the fact is the character doing it and winning with it is MK. That makes it a MK tactic.
Dojo didn't break any current rules by camping out the timer on DEHF, yet there was a panel to vote on whether he should have been DQd. Granted, UTD Zac didn't break any rules on planking, but they're similar situations with different outcomes. On one side, no one seemed to care. On the other, there's a bunch of controversy because he did something legal, but it won.
Also, the original Plank (I'm going to guess that you're talking of the original Brawl Plank, A.K.A. SK92 vs. Plairnkk in like late September of last year) didn't break the ledgegrab rule either. He used a combination of edgegrabs and a very safe playstyle in general.
Because people hate MK. People hate MK because 55+% of this community want him banned for being broken and the minority still keeps him in and players abuse him to do better than they would without. Thats why no one cares when a G&W planks and wins, and everyone does when MK does it. Is it fair? No. Then again though, in the majority opinion neither is MK so, meh.
I don't want to go back and count but if the Plank match your talking about is a MK v Falco on Battlefield match i'd be very suprised if 6+ minutes of ledge stalling didn't go over the current 70 ledgegrab limit. (Though i agree that "At the time" there was no rule against it, if thats the point you were making, can't think of why you would make that point though)
Air-camping, the perfectly legal zoning defensive tactic? I honestly don't see how it's barely legal. The air-camper gets a percent lead, and they start camping. The opponent can approach and hit them. It's harder, because they're in disadvantageous positioning, but they can do it all the same.
Addressed later.
EDC is banned, I don't know why you're bringing it up as a legit tactic.
IDC is banned, EDC is being put forward by some as a "different move" which techniqually isn't banned because its done with different inputs.
Technically:
IDC is the name of the tactic that uses MK's Dimensional Cape glitch to stall a match infinitely. Has to be used by rapidly tapping C-stick up.
EDC is the name of the tactic that uses MK's Dimensional Cape glitch to gain extra distance. Can be used by either the C-stick up way or the control-stick way.
Thats not how many define it though. In fact this whole thread is full of different definitions which leave EDC banned or legal depending on whose you follow.
The latter two are banned and illegal. Perfect recovery is just false.
How about a different wording. Ungimpable recovery? Near-perfect? "Requiring an absolutely horribly miscalculation by the MK player in order for it to not work" Recovery?
Legally?
No character.
Illegally, sure MK as he is the only one who can use DC.
But that's like saying which other character can Plank/air-camp/ chaingrab/ Swallowcide/ 5 jumps/Super armor recovery/ Infinite chaingrab/ And Down B charge across the stage.
When you list individual traits of a character you can really only get that character.
Now any character can plank and air camp. Marth can plank extremely well, and air-camping is a big part of his defensive game. DDD and Kirby both have 5 jumps and DDD can plank pretty well too. Not to mention dair and bair camping, which are ofcourse in the air.Those two characters, aswell as any one else in the game can air camp, and no one does it better than Wario. DDD has his own specific banned tactic, and every character has a specific move/tactic which MK has no access to in the same way only he has access to the DC and it's perks. And there is no such thing as a perfect recovery.
See above on perfect recovery.
Any character can plank, not any character can do it well, and none do it as well as MK. Wario is probably the only one who can compete for best "air camper", but he sucks at planking.
Every character may have a down-b, not every characters down-b makes them invisible/invulnerable and has the potential to transport them across different distances depending on what the player wants.
The point wasn't to list a set of random moves that could only be attributed as a group to MK. The point was to list a set of extremely potent moves who only MK has access to as a group.
Cirno said:
SmashWiki said:
Camping is the act of moving to a far corner of a stage, or to a lonely, safe place to evade the opponents.
In Smash Bros
It can have several purposes, including:
* Using a spammable projectile
* Charging a move that needs charging
* Wasting time
* Leading the opponents into a mine or Pitfall.
* (in battle with multiple fighters) wait until the enemies have taken more damage.
So by simple definition air camping is just doing any of this in the air.
ex:
Wario air dodging around until the chance to aerial or bite.
MK dairing just above you .
Marth fairing right in front of you but not approaching.
Stalling is
SmashWiki said:
Stalling is defined as any action that deliberately avoids all conflict as to make the game unplayable. It involves the player using a move or technique to waste time, usually done in time matches or timed stock matches. Stalling is banned in tournaments, as tournaments use timed stock matches.
ex:
Sonic homing under the stage.
MK/Kirby/Jiggz/ Wario (multiple jumpers/great aerial movers) continuous jumping away from you/gliding under the stage from one side to the other.
ICs/DDD Infiniting past 999 or the set limit (300 I believe it is) to run the clock.
So let me get this straight.
Stalling = "any action that deliberately avoids all conflict as to make the game unplayable."
And Air Camping = "moving to a far corner of a stage, or to a lonely, safe place to evade the opponents."
Evade =
Dictionary said:
1. To escape or avoid by cleverness or deceit:
However air camping is not stalling?
I can understand camping if you play a projectile character because you are engaging the enemy, your just doing it from range. However camping as a melee character where you run away every time someone tries to engage you sounds EXACTLY like the definition of stalling.
EDIT:
@above- I can monitor my match all I want. I still can't DQ the person I'm playing against. So either you're suggesting a judge at every MK match or your purposely not exercising your own common sense in order to make your earlier point.