"Echo Characters"

[MainJPW]

You are so right about that. I hope this happens in the next game. If there will be a Smash 6, that is

This is Smash 6.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

I'll post this here instead of the general Smash Ultimate discussion thread because it's a continuation of my Pokémon-from-every-gen Echo thing. You can see all the relevant informations in this post: https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-ultimate-discussion.434391/post-22290340

I originally made a post suggesting Gardevoir as an Echo of Mewtwo and Victini as an Echo of Pikachu. However after thinking about it Gardevoir's body shape is not similar enough to Mewtwo's (the legs in particular, and the dress isn't a satisfying substitute for the tail) to port it easily, so as the Hoenn rep I instead suggested Plusle (with Minun as an alt) as an Echo of Pichu, which actually fits. No I'm starting to think the same thing about Victini, whose body shape is very similar to Pikachu's but its arms aren't placed the same, there would need to be too many animation tweaks to prevent them from clipping in its head.

I also said we weren't going to have an Echo of one of Trainer's Pokémon, because it would just feel weird, but I'm too tempted by a new option to apply this rule to it: Haxorus as an Echo of Charizard. Basically Echoes to represent past Pokémon generations must fit two conditions: 1) being popular and iconic enough as part of their respective generation to not feel like a sore thumb in the playable Smash Pokémon roster and 2) have a body shape similar enough to another playable Pokémon to be an easy Echo. Haxorus certainly fits the first criterion and also fits the second one depending on your view: the body shape is pretty much the same (just Haxorus's neck is thicker), but it lacks wings, altering how some attacks would behave. Here's how I think it would work: (version 1.1)

• Different dash animation (obviously).
• Mid-air jump animation is different. Also no second mid-air jump.
• Neutral attack: first two hits unchanged, the third hit is replaced with a tusk hit instead of a wing attack, although when you look at Charizard's neutral attack animation you see there's not even a need to deeply change the animation (beside removing the wing obviously).
• Forward tilt: the sweetspot's location is reversed.
• Up tilt: does the same jump as Charizard, but because of the lack of wings, the hitbox on its back is smaller. The move overall is more powerful, both on the head and the back (reminder that Haxorus has spiky plates on its back which look like they can hurt).
• Down tilt: the second hitbox has a sweetspot at the head and a sourspot at the neck.
• Dash attack: unchanged.
• Side smash: has a sweetspot at the head, less powerful elsewhere.
• Up smash: animation unchanged, but the hitbox is now different, being now located at Haxorus's head, giving it a different function.
• Down smash: lowered range because of the lack of wings.
• Neutral aerial: sweetspot location reversed.
• Forward aerial: unchanged.
• Back aerial: sweetspot location reversed.
• Up aerial: has a sweetspot at the head, less powerful elsewhere.
• Down aerial: unchanged.
• Grab: unchanged.
• Pummel: animation slightly altered to make it look like its slashes the grabbed character with its tusks. Ouch.
• Forward, back and up throw: unchanged.
• Down throw: keeps the same animation as Smash 4 (Charizard gets a new one according to SmashWiki), with a blue flame instead of red, representing Dragon Rage.
• Neutral special: Dragon Rage: Blue flames instead of red. Functionally the same as Flamethrower.
• Side special: Outrage. An even more powerful Flare Blitz with blue flames. Also does self-dagame.
• Up special: Dragon Dance. Functionally the same, although with different aesthetic effects, and inflicts darkness damage to anyone hit.
• Down special: Rock Smash. Of course.
• Final Smash: Guillotine. A one-hit KO move as a Final Smash is only fair. Basically a clone of Marth's FS.

Spoiler: Updates from 1.0:

• Up tilt used to be: "does the same jump as Charizard, but puts its head above its body to attack with it and replace the wings." This was before I realized that Charizard's up tilt changed in Ultimate.
• Up special used to be: "Only has one hitbow at the start of the move, otherwise identitcal to Fly." I changed it to be the same function-wise in order to lower the amount of unnecessary differences. Plus I typoed "bitbow" instead of "hitbox".
• I feel the need to mention that midair jump animation would need to be different.

Basically Haxorus would be both a way to represent Unova with one of its most popular Pokémon and to appeal to people who enjoyed Charizard as a solo fighter and those who'd miss Rock Smash. I tried to make Haxorus's playable Smash appearance as unchanged from Charizard's as possible in order to not fall in the semi-clone category and stay an Echo. Many of these changes are merely animation changed or sweetspot-related, although there are some key differences, like no mid-air jump and different up smash hitboxes. Anyway while replacing Gardevoir with Plusle/Minun felt a bit underwhelming, replacing Victini with Haxorus actually feels even more hype, I mean, who doesn't like the idea of a plated dracoic dinosaur with super sharp tusks? Although it would have the bizarre implication that Pichu would have an Echo, but not Pikachu...

I wanted to respond to this specifically because I was toying around with a similar idea for an echo for fans of solo Zard. At first I really wasn’t sure because it would be so different from Pokémon Trainer but then I realized that Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard each have their own numbers, so an echo could easily just be 35ε I still think a solo Charizard echo needs to have wings to fit the model better which is why I suggested Dragonite. But I also get where you were going with a rep from each gen and don’t want to discount that.

As for Black Shadow sharing a space with Ganondorf, it would be a bit weird at first considering they’re not from the same series. But it might also be another fun meta reference since a lot of fans have been vocal about a solution like this since Melee. The only other cross series echo I could see would be Giygas over Mewtwo, because of the relationship between the Pokémon and Mother series. Another inside joke, per se.

 

[Hydra of Chaos]

This is Smash 6.

Smash for 3ds and WiiU are usually counted together as Smash4. So Ultimate is Smash 5

 

[Sheng Long]

It would be possible, but its also confirmed that Dunban is already in Shulks FS, so.....
I wouldnt be against it tho, just saying its not very propable and I would like him with a unique moveset much more

That's true... Well I guess it really is up to either Alvis or Zanza, but I think I'll choose Zanza.

I don't think that would work, dunban can't canonically use the monado without hurting himself, alvis and zanza would make far more sense

Dunban could be like Pichu where he has the same moves, but hurts himself in the process. Aside from that, due to Dunban being in Shulk's FS already, I may as well choose someone else which is Zanza.

 

[MainJPW]

Smash for 3ds and WiiU are usually counted together as Smash4. So Ultimate is Smash 5

Sakurai considers 3DS "4" and Wii U "5". The job listing for Ultimate was called the "Smash 6" job listing.

https://sourcegaming.info/2018/02/11/smash-switch-will-be-smash-6/

https://nintendoeverything.com/bandai-namco-hiring-for-smash-bros-6-which-launches-next-year/

 

[NintenRob]

3 echoes I fully expect

Impa, Ken, Shadow

2 other echoes I expect, but could be unique too

Isabelle, Dixie Kong

 

[DarthEnderX]

Sakurai considers 3DS "4" and Wii U "5".

Well he's wrong.

 

[MainJPW]

Well he's wrong.

It’s the man himself and I’m but a mere follower.

 

[Sheng Long]

Okay so this here is the final product. Here is one echo for each character so far.
- Metal Mario: This is really the only viable choice as Paper Mario is too different and we have Dr. Mario back as well. This would be a great throwback to the original Smash when he was a cool mid-boss character. He's also somewhat treated as a different character in the Mario spin-offs as well; a bizarro Mario perhaps.
- Dr. Luigi: He could really just be a hybrid between Dr. Mario and Luigi in terms of moveset. This is a really easy character to create considering that you just have to repeat what Melee did when they created Dr. Mario.
- Nabbit: I was thinking about this since Nabbit is the fourth playable character in the Super Luigi U adventure. He would also be a nice rep for the NSMB sub-series of games.
-
- Pauline: Yeah she may be a background character in the New Donk City stage, but I don't think that really stops her chances from being playable though. How would she fight like Rosalina? Perhaps she can use her mic and even get some support from Cappy to pull it off.
- Dry Bowser: He seems pretty popular in the spin-offs and he's an undead character so that's nice. He would also count as a NSMB rep as well.
- Tatanga: I originally thought of Mario Party Koopa Kid, but that's just too redundant (especially if the Koopalings are all costumes). I decided on Tatanga from the Super Mario Land games because not only does he fight in his spaceship, but he also debuted in the same game as Daisy!
- Birdo: Just some minor animation changes and Birdo can fit right in as a Yoshi echo pretty much. There's no one else besides Boshi, but I can't really imagine him laying eggs. Plus Birdo makes more sense since it's appeared in more games and is more popular.
- Funky Kong: Not much to really explain here except he can probably incorporate his surf board.
- Dixie Kong: Same for Dixie being Diddy's echo, just add in some hair animations/attacks.
King K. Rool - Wart: This was the only thing I could think of, but I think it can be pulled off somehow. Wart has a similar body to K. Rool and I don't think much is known of his character so he's mostly a blank canvas. Just replace the crown throw with his signature bubble attack.
- Booster: If Geno gets in then this would be a great opportunity to put Booster in Smash as Wario's echo. They look alike, and the moveset would stay pretty much the same. The side special would just be locomotive and the down special would be the spritz bomb attack and that's pretty much it. (Final smash can be the giant cake boss in SMRPG).
- Gooey: I actually went over this in the Gooey thread. Basically the neutral special can just be Yoshi tongue + Kirby inhale and if you're wondring about limbs... tongue animations will do just fine as that's what he does in Star Allies.
- Dark Meta Knight: Galacta Knight is also viable, but DMK is more of a villain and he can be made more unique by adding mirror effects to his attacks.
- Bonkers: Yeah I'm not sure about this one, but it makes sense for the most part since Bonkers also uses a hammer like Dedede and is also a great rep for the helpers in Super Star/Star Allies. Yeah I know he's just a regular mid-boss, but he's probably the most popular one. If anything he can have his Star Allies design with the headband.
- Hero's Shade: Twilight Princess rep and can just use Brawl Link's moveset pretty much.
- Ravio: Lorulean Link... there's not much else to say really.
- Tetra: Since there's three Links, may as well add in a third Zelda. Being a pirate, I think Toon Link's moveset can fit her well. Maybe just replace spin attack with Deku Leaf.
- Hilda: This is Link to the Worlds Zelda so it only makes sense to have Hilda as her echo. This also justifies Ravio being in as well.
- Impa: Skyward Sword rep, not much else to say besides that she is a very wanted Zelda character.
- Yuga: Completing the Link to the Worlds trinity basically. Sword can be replaced with rod/staff.
- Raichu: I think Alolan Raichu is the Pokeball right? Well anyways this makes sense since this is the evolution of Pikachu and would also complete the Pikachu evolution trinity.
- Plusle/Minun: They can be alternate costumes for each other and I can see them using Pichu's self harm gimmick as well. These two were also speculated to have been scrapped from Brawl so I figured this would be the time to bring them back.
- Clefairy: Yep.
- Deoxys: Deoxys always felt like Gen. 3 Mewtwo for me, but perhaps that may be the point anyways.
- Blaziken: Blaziken is to Lucario as Roy was to Marth in Melee. They're both fighting type, just one will be a fiery version of the other. I think it can be done. Also another Gen. 3 rep.
- Sinnoh Trainer: Yep you heard it. Piplup, Grotel, and Infernape would fit as echoes for the Gen. 1 trio in my opinion.
- Zoroark: I just did this for the Gen. 5 rep.
-
- Chrom
- Black Knight: From the same game, popular FE villain, that's pretty much it.
:ultrobin- Celica: Basically another good spellbook rep and a Chronicles rep.
- Tiki: The sword might be a problem, but she's also a dragon and pretty popular so I think she can pass.
-
- Medusa: I know Viridi is more popular, but Medusa has more historical significance, is a bigger villain, and can fit Palutena's proportions.
- Dark Samus
- Rundas: Another Prime rep, humanoid in design, bounty hunter, and ZSS' moveset is quite nimble and can paralyze opponents which is perfect for Rundas (just add ice element and that's it).
- Omega Metroid: Maybe not, but it can be done. Not sure about the flight though, but since the previous stages can fly maybe the ability can be passed up to Omega Metroid.
- Slippy: Completes main Star Fox crew
- Peppy: Completes main Star Fox crew
- Andross: Andross' humanoid ape body can be used while he can transform for his FS.
- Black Shadow: Darkness instead of fire, F-Zero villain.
- Ninten: Mother 1 protagonist needs to be here to complete the trinity.
- Masked Man: Twinsies!
- Isabelle: This might actually happen and it really just makes a lot of sense.
- Alph/Louie: I think Alph is a costume again sadly so Louie can be used. Just give him Rock Pikmin and that's it!
- Zanza: This was already discussed one or two pages ago.
- Octoling: Pretty obvious choice really.
- Hikari & Donbe: This is the Famicom classic duo. Not sure if they can be Ice Climber clones, but it could if they are just non-elemental Ice Climber clones and the hammers can be replace with something different like sticks.
- Urban Champion: Sakurai wanted to put him in Melee and this is the chance to do it now. The dude is a brawler type of guy so Little Mac's moveset would be perfect.
- Wild Gunman: Really the only thing I could think of. He could just be direct with his shots instead of the shots coming from the 4th wall.
- Flipnote Frog: Can be flat and can draw stuff similar to Mr. G&W's attacks pretty much.
- Monita: Wii U rep and is also a robot.
- Style Savvy: WFT uses regular everyday exercises so having Savvy do the same would not be far-fetched at all. The special moves and FS can maybe be more clothing/fashion based, but still keeping the same core idea of the moves themselves.
- Roblox: This is a joke, I had no other idea of what to choose, but this made the most sense to me lol.
- Shadow: I think he's already in the game like Isabelle.
- Big Boss: Not a MG fan, but this makes the most sense.
Simon - Richter
- Roll: Proto Man, Bass, and the other Mega Men are all in Mega Man's FS so why not have his sister Roll just be his echo?
- Akuma: Some want Ken, but Akuma is more iconic and fills in the rival/villain role even more.
- Ms. Pac-Man: No explanation should be needed for this.
- Squall: Squall is to Cloud as Roy was to Marth in Melee. He would also be another popular FF rep too.
- Jeanne: Sisters and they're already similar in the series they're from soooo you know.

 

[DarthEnderX]

- Urban Champion: Sakurai wanted to put him in Melee and this is the chance to do it now. The dude is a brawler type of guy so Little Mac's moveset would be perfect.

That's actually a better pick than any of the other Punch-Out characters, who are all at least twice Little Mac's height and fight completely differently than he does.

 

[Red Dead Redeemed]

View attachment 158109

Okay so this here is the final product. Here is one echo for each character so far.
- Metal Mario: This is really the only viable choice as Paper Mario is too different and we have Dr. Mario back as well. This would be a great throwback to the original Smash when he was a cool mid-boss character. He's also somewhat treated as a different character in the Mario spin-offs as well; a bizarro Mario perhaps.
- Dr. Luigi: He could really just be a hybrid between Dr. Mario and Luigi in terms of moveset. This is a really easy character to create considering that you just have to repeat what Melee did when they created Dr. Mario.
- Nabbit: I was thinking about this since Nabbit is the fourth playable character in the Super Luigi U adventure. He would also be a nice rep for the NSMB sub-series of games.
-
- Pauline: Yeah she may be a background character in the New Donk City stage, but I don't think that really stops her chances from being playable though. How would she fight like Rosalina? Perhaps she can use her mic and even get some support from Cappy to pull it off.
- Dry Bowser: He seems pretty popular in the spin-offs and he's an undead character so that's nice. He would also count as a NSMB rep as well.
- Tatanga: I originally thought of Mario Party Koopa Kid, but that's just too redundant (especially if the Koopalings are all costumes). I decided on Tatanga from the Super Mario Land games because not only does he fight in his spaceship, but he also debuted in the same game as Daisy!
- Birdo: Just some minor animation changes and Birdo can fit right in as a Yoshi echo pretty much. There's no one else besides Boshi, but I can't really imagine him laying eggs. Plus Birdo makes more sense since it's appeared in more games and is more popular.
- Funky Kong: Not much to really explain here except he can probably incorporate his surf board.
- Dixie Kong: Same for Dixie being Diddy's echo, just add in some hair animations/attacks.
King K. Rool - Wart: This was the only thing I could think of, but I think it can be pulled off somehow. Wart has a similar body to K. Rool and I don't think much is known of his character so he's mostly a blank canvas. Just replace the crown throw with his signature bubble attack.
- Booster: If Geno gets in then this would be a great opportunity to put Booster in Smash as Wario's echo. They look alike, and the moveset would stay pretty much the same. The side special would just be locomotive and the down special would be the spritz bomb attack and that's pretty much it. (Final smash can be the giant cake boss in SMRPG).
- Gooey: I actually went over this in the Gooey thread. Basically the neutral special can just be Yoshi tongue + Kirby inhale and if you're wondring about limbs... tongue animations will do just fine as that's what he does in Star Allies.
- Dark Meta Knight: Galacta Knight is also viable, but DMK is more of a villain and he can be made more unique by adding mirror effects to his attacks.
- Bonkers: Yeah I'm not sure about this one, but it makes sense for the most part since Bonkers also uses a hammer like Dedede and is also a great rep for the helpers in Super Star/Star Allies. Yeah I know he's just a regular mid-boss, but he's probably the most popular one. If anything he can have his Star Allies design with the headband.
- Hero's Shade: Twilight Princess rep and can just use Brawl Link's moveset pretty much.
- Ravio: Lorulean Link... there's not much else to say really.
- Tetra: Since there's three Links, may as well add in a third Zelda. Being a pirate, I think Toon Link's moveset can fit her well. Maybe just replace spin attack with Deku Leaf.
- Hilda: This is Link to the Worlds Zelda so it only makes sense to have Hilda as her echo. This also justifies Ravio being in as well.
- Impa: Skyward Sword rep, not much else to say besides that she is a very wanted Zelda character.
- Yuga: Completing the Link to the Worlds trinity basically. Sword can be replaced with rod/staff.
- Raichu: I think Alolan Raichu is the Pokeball right? Well anyways this makes sense since this is the evolution of Pikachu and would also complete the Pikachu evolution trinity.
- Plusle/Minun: They can be alternate costumes for each other and I can see them using Pichu's self harm gimmick as well. These two were also speculated to have been scrapped from Brawl so I figured this would be the time to bring them back.
- Clefairy: Yep.
- Deoxys: Deoxys always felt like Gen. 3 Mewtwo for me, but perhaps that may be the point anyways.
- Blaziken: Blaziken is to Lucario as Roy was to Marth in Melee. They're both fighting type, just one will be a fiery version of the other. I think it can be done. Also another Gen. 3 rep.
- Sinnoh Trainer: Yep you heard it. Piplup, Grotel, and Infernape would fit as echoes for the Gen. 1 trio in my opinion.
- Zoroark: I just did this for the Gen. 5 rep.
-
- Chrom
- Black Knight: From the same game, popular FE villain, that's pretty much it.
:ultrobin- Celica: Basically another good spellbook rep and a Chronicles rep.
- Tiki: The sword might be a problem, but she's also a dragon and pretty popular so I think she can pass.
-
- Medusa: I know Viridi is more popular, but Medusa has more historical significance, is a bigger villain, and can fit Palutena's proportions.
- Dark Samus
- Rundas: Another Prime rep, humanoid in design, bounty hunter, and ZSS' moveset is quite nimble and can paralyze opponents which is perfect for Rundas (just add ice element and that's it).
- Omega Metroid: Maybe not, but it can be done. Not sure about the flight though, but since the previous stages can fly maybe the ability can be passed up to Omega Metroid.
- Slippy: Completes main Star Fox crew
- Peppy: Completes main Star Fox crew
- Andross: Andross' humanoid ape body can be used while he can transform for his FS.
- Black Shadow: Darkness instead of fire, F-Zero villain.
- Ninten: Mother 1 protagonist needs to be here to complete the trinity.
- Masked Man: Twinsies!
- Isabelle: This might actually happen and it really just makes a lot of sense.
- Alph/Louie: I think Alph is a costume again sadly so Louie can be used. Just give him Rock Pikmin and that's it!
- Zanza: This was already discussed one or two pages ago.
- Octoling: Pretty obvious choice really.
- Hikari & Donbe: This is the Famicom classic duo. Not sure if they can be Ice Climber clones, but it could if they are just non-elemental Ice Climber clones and the hammers can be replace with something different like sticks.
- Urban Champion: Sakurai wanted to put him in Melee and this is the chance to do it now. The dude is a brawler type of guy so Little Mac's moveset would be perfect.
- Wild Gunman: Really the only thing I could think of. He could just be direct with his shots instead of the shots coming from the 4th wall.
- Flipnote Frog: Can be flat and can draw stuff similar to Mr. G&W's attacks pretty much.
- Monita: Wii U rep and is also a robot.
- Style Savvy: WFT uses regular everyday exercises so having Savvy do the same would not be far-fetched at all. The special moves and FS can maybe be more clothing/fashion based, but still keeping the same core idea of the moves themselves.
- Roblox: This is a joke, I had no other idea of what to choose, but this made the most sense to me lol.
- Shadow: I think he's already in the game like Isabelle.
- Big Boss: Not a MG fan, but this makes the most sense.
Simon - Richter
- Roll: Proto Man, Bass, and the other Mega Men are all in Mega Man's FS so why not have his sister Roll just be his echo?
- Akuma: Some want Ken, but Akuma is more iconic and fills in the rival/villain role even more.
- Ms. Pac-Man: No explanation should be needed for this.
- Squall: Squall is to Cloud as Roy was to Marth in Melee. He would also be another popular FF rep too.
- Jeanne: Sisters and they're already similar in the series they're from soooo you know.

Great call on these, especially for calling out the issue with Viridi as an echo fighter. Of the four revealed so far the one consistency with all of them is that they share almost the exact same base model as their originals with only superficial cosmetics changed. Young Link isn't considered a echo of regular Link because of his size changes, and I doubt Viridi could be called that either if she was based on Palutena.

 

[Folt]

You know, I'm starting to think that Dr. Mario isn't an Echo Fighter because he's not really beholden to be an echo of Mario's moveset anymore.

That might sound odd, but think about it:

Melee Dr. Mario - :

• Generally the same moveset as Mario, with some weird properties like reverse-power nair.
• Megavitamins are treated like fireballs with more bounce so they can be absorbed.
• Super Sheet's only difference seems to be in it's better vertical hitbox as opposed to it's horizontal hitbox.
• Super Jump Punch is literally Mario's except more powerful which means potentially less hits.
• Dr. Tornado is similiar to Mario's.

Then Brawl happened and Mario turned his previous down B into his dair and got a new Down B which had a different purpose. Come Smash 4 and Mario keeps his Brawl changes, but the game also marked Dr. Mario's return... and yet:

Smash 4 Dr. Mario - :

• Retains his weird-ass moveset properties. (This bit isn't important but is something I felt I needed to note anyway.)
• Megavitamins is now more of it's own thing than a variant of Mario's Fireball because of the simple fact that they're physical projectiles now. So they're no longer an absorbable projectile but can be eaten.
• Super Jump Punch is now more like a traditional neutral aerial where it's strong at the beginning and weakens thereafter. This makes it more similiar to Luigi's Super Jump Punch but importantly takes it in a noticeably different direction than Mario's Super Jump Punch. Also doesn't have coins anymore.
• Retains the Dr. Tornado as his Down B.
• Retains the original Mario dair.
• Also is slower and has different jump physics to go with his more powerful moves like he was supposed to.

Note how Dr. Mario from this point onwards isn't beholden to what happens with normal Mario's moveset anymore. Since Brawl, Mario went in one direction and when Dr. Mario came back, he didn't tread the same ground as Mario did, but went his own way. At that point, Dr. Mario ceased to be an echo of Mario and became his own thing.

Come Smash Ultimate:

Smash Ultimate Dr. Mario - :

• Dair changed from original Mario dair to his own thing. Now works more like other dairs like Ganondorf.
• Super Sheet animation now seems like he's doing it at an angle reflects (hehe) it's actual hitbox properties.

Mostly minor changes so far, but the fact that dair was changed into something else despite it already being a move that Mario doesn't have (anymore) now simply continues what Smash 4 started in regards to Dr. Mario: He no longer needs to follow in the original Mario's footsteps and keeps doing his own thing. And that gives us a very good reason as to why the good doctor isn't an Echo Fighter in Ultimate because he's no longer echoing his parent character.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

You know, I'm starting to think that Dr. Mario isn't an Echo Fighter because he's not really beholden to be an echo of Mario's moveset anymore.

That might sound odd, but think about it:

Melee Dr. Mario - :

• Generally the same moveset as Mario, with some weird properties like reverse-power nair.
• Megavitamins are treated like fireballs with more bounce so they can be absorbed.
• Super Sheet's only difference seems to be in it's better vertical hitbox as opposed to it's horizontal hitbox.
• Super Jump Punch is literally Mario's except more powerful which means potentially less hits.
• Dr. Tornado is similiar to Mario's.

Then Brawl happened and Mario turned his previous down B into his dair and got a new Down B which had a different purpose. Come Smash 4 and Mario keeps his Brawl changes, but the game also marked Dr. Mario's return... and yet:

Smash 4 Dr. Mario - :

• Retains his weird-*** moveset properties. (This bit isn't important but is something I felt I needed to note anyway.)
• Megavitamins is now more of it's own thing than a variant of Mario's Fireball because of the simple fact that they're physical projectiles now. So they're no longer an absorbable projectile but can be eaten.
• Super Jump Punch is now more like a traditional neutral aerial where it's strong at the beginning and weakens thereafter. This makes it more similiar to Luigi's Super Jump Punch but importantly takes it in a noticeably different direction than Mario's Super Jump Punch. Also doesn't have coins anymore.
• Retains the Dr. Tornado as his Down B.
• Retains the original Mario dair.
• Also is slower and has different jump physics to go with his more powerful moves like he was supposed to.

Note how Dr. Mario from this point onwards isn't beholden to what happens with normal Mario's moveset anymore. Since Brawl, Mario went in one direction and when Dr. Mario came back, he didn't tread the same ground as Mario did, but went his own way. At that point, Dr. Mario ceased to be an echo of Mario and became his own thing.

Come Smash Ultimate:

Smash Ultimate Dr. Mario - :

• Dair changed from original Mario dair to his own thing. Now works more like other dairs like Ganondorf.
• Super Sheet animation now seems like he's doing it at an angle reflects (hehe) it's actual hitbox properties.

Mostly minor changes so far, but the fact that dair was changed into something else despite it already being a move that Mario doesn't have (anymore) now simply continues what Smash 4 started in regards to Dr. Mario: He no longer needs to follow in the original Mario's footsteps and keeps doing his own thing. And that gives us a very good reason as to why the good doctor isn't an Echo Fighter in Ultimate because he's no longer echoing his parent character.

That sums it up pretty well. The other important part though is that Doc got fixed to actually be “stronger and slower” like he was supposed to in Melee.

The Gamexplain interview specifically said that those properties like weight, speed, etc. wouldn’t be changed. Now granted it wasn’t Sakurai himself but still. Even with some of the moveset changes Chrom got he’ll probably still weigh the same as Roy and have almost exactly the same mobility. That’s why unfortunately, Black Shadow as a “slower stronger Captain Falcon echo” probably won’t be a thing.

 

[Buzzwole]

This is Smash 6.

Technically, its the sixth smash game, yes.
The general consensus among pretty much the entire Smash community though is to refer to Smash 3DS and Wii U collectively as Smash 4.

You aren't incorrect about this being the 6th Smash release, but pretty much everyone sees Ultimate as Smash 5.

 

[Camc10]

That sums it up pretty well. The other important part though is that Doc got fixed to actually be “stronger and slower” like he was supposed to in Melee.

The Gamexplain interview specifically said that those properties like weight, speed, etc. wouldn’t be changed. Now granted it wasn’t Sakurai himself but still. Even with some of the moveset changes Chrom got he’ll probably still weigh the same as Roy and have almost exactly the same mobility. That’s why unfortunately, Black Shadow as a “slower stronger Captain Falcon echo” probably won’t be a thing.

This is why I'm fine with him being a Ban on echo since he doesn't need all the same moves as Ganon.

Also, for a bit, let's talk stop talking about what echoes can characters in the game can get, and along with Simon and Ricther, let's think about what characters that can get into Smash can have echoes.

 

[PeridotGX]

This is why I'm fine with him being a Ban on echo since he doesn't need all the same moves as Ganon.

Also, for a bit, let's talk stop talking about what echoes can characters in the game can get, and along with Simon and Ricther, let's think about what characters that can get into Smash can have echoes.

I've started thinking that Lycanroc could have Dog Zygarde as an echo. They're both quadupedal earthbenders, and Zygarde's decently relevant.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Also, for a bit, let's talk stop talking about what echoes can characters in the game can get, and along with Simon and Ricther, let's think about what characters that can get into Smash can have echoes.

Captain Toad w/ Toadette [Treasure Tracker]
Spring Man w/ Ribbon Girl [ARMS]
Bill Rizer w/ Lance Bean [Contra]
Kunio w/ Riki [River City Ransom]
Rash w/ Zitz [Battletoads]
Billy Lee w/ Jimmy Lee [Double Dragon]
Bub w/ Bob [Bubble Bobble]
Goemon w/ Ebisumaru [Mystical Ninja]
Erdrick w/ other DQ protag [Dragon Quest]

 

[Aetheri]

This is why I'm fine with him being a Ban on echo since he doesn't need all the same moves as Ganon.

Also, for a bit, let's talk stop talking about what echoes can characters in the game can get, and along with Simon and Ricther, let's think about what characters that can get into Smash can have echoes.

The most likely pair being Spring Man and Ribbon Girl...Still think we'll get both as DLC

 

[MrElectroG64]

Whelp, I'm back and with more echo schematics. Previously I made of for Giygas, but this time I've got ones for Baby Bowser and Dark Meta Knight.

Dark Meta Knight is a pretty interesting one, though it wasn't my first choice for a Meta Knight echo. That goes to Galacta Knight, but since he is most likely disconfirmed as a palette swap for Meta, which honestly sucks and I'm still quite salty about it. Dark Meta Knight is a serviceable replacement though, and I've since warmed up to him a lot. His attacks being more mirror based really helped differentiate himself from Meta, and they're admittedly quite appealing, so I eventually caved in and made a schematic for him, and I have to say I'me quite satisfied with it and him as a likely echo fighter for Meta Knight.

Baby Bowser is a different situation. I simply made this one because I wanted to. Originally, in a conversation about finding villains to add for all original 12 fighters, me and some others were looking for a character to make Yoshi's villain. Kamek is disconfirmed, so we settled with Baby Bowser, who I was a little confused about and deemed not worth it at the time, but once I started actually putting some thought into it, I fell in love with the idea. For Baby Bowser, his Clown Car isn't as technologically advanced as Bowser Jr.'s, so he has to rely on the help of his friends (aka, bosses from various yoshi games). His theme is that "Baby Bowser has brought all of his friends along for the trip! but how did he manage to fit all of them into the Clown Car?" Almost all of his attacks are reskinned to be limbs from various bosses, instead of robotic limbs.
I've been criticized quite a bit about how unnecessary of an addition Baby Bowser would be, but honestly I don't care, as I really only made this for the fun of it. I do still hope he gets in some how :^)

Oh yeah, also, please forgive any spelling and grammar errors in here. I made both of these pretty late at night, so I wasn't exactly aware of what I was doing all the way lol.

 

[GolisoPower]

Whelp, I'm back and with more echo schematics. Previously I made of for Giygas, but this time I've got ones for Baby Bowser and Dark Meta Knight.

Dark Meta Knight is a pretty interesting one, though it wasn't my first choice for a Meta Knight echo. That goes to Galacta Knight, but since he is most likely disconfirmed as a palette swap for Meta, which honestly sucks and I'm still quite salty about it. Dark Meta Knight is a serviceable replacement though, and I've since warmed up to him a lot. His attacks being more mirror based really helped differentiate himself from Meta, and they're admittedly quite appealing, so I eventually caved in and made a schematic for him, and I have to say I'me quite satisfied with it and him as a likely echo fighter for Meta Knight.

Baby Bowser is a different situation. I simply made this one because I wanted to. Originally, in a conversation about finding villains to add for all original 12 fighters, me and some others were looking for a character to make Yoshi's villain. Kamek is disconfirmed, so we settled with Baby Bowser, who I was a little confused about and deemed not worth it at the time, but once I started actually putting some thought into it, I fell in love with the idea. For Baby Bowser, his Clown Car isn't as technologically advanced as Bowser Jr.'s, so he has to rely on the help of his friends (aka, bosses from various yoshi games). His theme is that "Baby Bowser has brought all of his friends along for the trip! but how did he manage to fit all of them into the Clown Car?" Almost all of his attacks are reskinned to be limbs from various bosses, instead of robotic limbs.
I've been criticized quite a bit about how unnecessary of an addition Baby Bowser would be, but honestly I don't care, as I really only made this for the fun of it. I do still hope he gets in some how :^)

Oh yeah, also, please forgive any spelling and grammar errors in here. I made both of these pretty late at night, so I wasn't exactly aware of what I was doing all the way lol.

I really like how you made Dark Meta Knight mirror-based, and the reflect-heavy nature sort of reminds me of Hakumen from BlazBlue.

Baby Bowser is just raw genius. Never would I have thought to have used enemies from Yoshi’s Island as part of his moveset!

 

[mynameisBlade]

Sakurai considers 3DS "4" and Wii U "5". The job listing for Ultimate was called the "Smash 6" job listing.

https://sourcegaming.info/2018/02/11/smash-switch-will-be-smash-6/

https://nintendoeverything.com/bandai-namco-hiring-for-smash-bros-6-which-launches-next-year/

I'd have to fight Sakurai on that one too. Just because you had the game released on two different systems with it being called two different things, BUT the content was 90ish% identical....they are not two separate things. Smash 3ds is like Jackssa 1. Smash Wii U is like Jackssa 1.5. Its the same **** with different whatever, but the premise is the same. This new game is Smash 5. We can let Sakurai live in Lala Land all he wants, but him stating that is just annoying.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Whelp, I'm back and with more echo schematics. Previously I made of for Giygas, but this time I've got ones for Baby Bowser and Dark Meta Knight.

Dark Meta Knight is a pretty interesting one, though it wasn't my first choice for a Meta Knight echo. That goes to Galacta Knight, but since he is most likely disconfirmed as a palette swap for Meta, which honestly sucks and I'm still quite salty about it. Dark Meta Knight is a serviceable replacement though, and I've since warmed up to him a lot. His attacks being more mirror based really helped differentiate himself from Meta, and they're admittedly quite appealing, so I eventually caved in and made a schematic for him, and I have to say I'me quite satisfied with it and him as a likely echo fighter for Meta Knight.

Baby Bowser is a different situation. I simply made this one because I wanted to. Originally, in a conversation about finding villains to add for all original 12 fighters, me and some others were looking for a character to make Yoshi's villain. Kamek is disconfirmed, so we settled with Baby Bowser, who I was a little confused about and deemed not worth it at the time, but once I started actually putting some thought into it, I fell in love with the idea. For Baby Bowser, his Clown Car isn't as technologically advanced as Bowser Jr.'s, so he has to rely on the help of his friends (aka, bosses from various yoshi games). His theme is that "Baby Bowser has brought all of his friends along for the trip! but how did he manage to fit all of them into the Clown Car?" Almost all of his attacks are reskinned to be limbs from various bosses, instead of robotic limbs.
I've been criticized quite a bit about how unnecessary of an addition Baby Bowser would be, but honestly I don't care, as I really only made this for the fun of it. I do still hope he gets in some how :^)

Oh yeah, also, please forgive any spelling and grammar errors in here. I made both of these pretty late at night, so I wasn't exactly aware of what I was doing all the way lol.

I'd be all for Dark Metaknight being an Echo personally, with all the cool Mirror stuff to boot which even Star Allies is using.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

I may have just had an epiphany...

Maybe Mario doesn't have a certain alt color because Fire Mario is becoming an echo fighter! It is probably his most iconic transformation, and he could use some of his customs from smash 4, like fast fireball and explosive punch.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

I finally attempted to make one of these support threads, hope I did it ok

https://smashboards.com/threads/mirror-mirror-a-dark-metaknight-support-thread.457501/

 

[Lord-Zero]

Fire Mario? Hmm, I can see it happening.

Jedisupersonic It looks good.
I’ve been thinking of making a support thread for Eliwood and his potential as Cloud’s Echo Fighter but since he falls under “anime-looking swordsman”, “FE character” and the FE fatigue is as high as ever, I’ve refrained from doing so since the fanbase clearly favors someone like Hector or Edelgard.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'd have to fight Sakurai on that one too. Just because you had the game released on two different systems with it being called two different things, BUT the content was 90ish% identical....they are not two separate things. Smash 3ds is like Jackssa 1. Smash Wii U is like Jackssa 1.5. Its the same **** with different whatever, but the premise is the same. This new game is Smash 5. We can let Sakurai live in Lala Land all he wants, but him stating that is just annoying.

There are a lot of games today that release, are sequels, and 90% of the game is the same

 

[DarthEnderX]

I might have to kill myself if they added a character that was literally just Mario with a powerup that's already reflected in his normal moveset...

 

[Thereallucario]

Sorry if this is a tad off topic or already said (I skimmed through the previous pages but there are ALOT of pages, and frankly i'm a tad lazy) but what is y'alls opinion on "mixed character" echo fighters, such as Chrom? Does anyone think that something interesting will happen, it'll remain mostly unused, or perhaps you have crazy plots or ideas floating around that 100% PROVE the existence of a certain character? If so- Im all ears.

Oh, also, heads up- might not respond right away, or timely at all. please don't take it seriously.

 

[Lord-Zero]

Thereallucario Chrom proved that Echo Fighters don’t have to be 1:1 copies of the fighter they’re based on.
It opens the possibilities for other characters.

 

[QrowinSP]

Thereallucario Chrom proved that Echo Fighters don’t have to be 1:1 copies of the fighter they’re based on.
It opens the possibilities for other characters.

It makes me think of what else could be different... In melee, YL and pichu were sort of "echoes", in that they were MUCH more similar to their originals than they are in ultimate, but they were also different sizes. Do you think it's possible we see an echo like this, with a different height than the original?

 

[Red Dead Redeemed]

It makes me think of what else could be different... In melee, YL and pichu were sort of "echoes", in that they were MUCH more similar to their originals than they are in ultimate, but they were also different sizes. Do you think it's possible we see an echo like this, with a different height than the original?

Personally, I don't think so. Because the point of Echo Fighters is that they are a cheap, quick and easy way to do fanservice. Changing the size of fighters is more complicated than just shrinking them, you have to take into account the changes in weight, speed and power that will incur and at that point they become the harder to implement semi-clone. I think the important thing to note about all four Echo Fighters we have as of right now is that despite possessing different, looks, animations and even movement, dodges and sometimes attacks as their original, they all share an exact/near exact base model as their original.

Then again, Sakurai does not give a care to any "rules" we come up with anyways so I could be completely off the mark, but that's what makes the most sense in my mind right now.

 

[Curious Villager]

Eh I don't know really. Chrom has a different up special and Dark Samus is apparently floatier. It could very well be possible that Sakurai might add an echo that's just shorter than their parent character such as Viridi and Toon Zelda if he's willing to go that far. In fact, the less he arbitrarily restricts himself with echoes the better I'd say, since he made clones that where shorter or bigger than their originals in the past. It may also be better for characters like Dixie Kong too if he's going the echo route with her.

 

[RouffWestie]

Lol, the arbitrary fanmade rules for echo fighters are falling apart bit by bit, and it's as beautiful as I imagined it being. First Chrom kills, "no different moves," and now Dark Samus kills, "no different stats." How much further can we go I wonder.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Lol, the arbitrary fanmade rules for echo fighters are falling apart bit by bit, and it's as beautiful as I imagined it being. First Chrom kills, "no different moves," and now Dark Samus kills, "no different stats." How much further can we go I wonder.

Lets see

Metal Mario (Smash 64 moveset and outdoes Bowser as heaviest in game, Getting Metal Box does nothing, much like in Mario 64)
Dixie Kong (Uses Diddy's base stats but works in Donkey Kong's up and down specials)
Hilda (uses Palutena's tilt attacks with her staff)
Roll (uses broom in attacks)
Gardevoir (is mash-up of the various magic/psychic and female characters)

 

[DarthEnderX]

Eh I don't know really. Chrom has a different up special and Dark Samus is apparently floatier.

It's almost as if...Sakurai has no idea what makes an echo fighter an echo fighter, and he's just making it up as he goes...

Lol, the arbitrary fanmade rules for echo fighters are falling apart bit by bit, and it's as beautiful as I imagined it being. First Chrom kills, "no different moves," and now Dark Samus kills, "no different stats." How much further can we go I wonder.

I'm not sure. But the more of these rules get killed, the madder I get that Dr. Mario wasn't an echo fighter.

 

[Curious Villager]

It's almost as if...Sakurai has no idea what makes an echo fighter and echo fighter, and he's just making it up as he goes...

To be fair, I don't think it was Sakurai that said what made an echo fighter. I don't think he explained much about them himself.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

About Dark Samus being floatier, I believe it's just refering to how it is animated, and not stats. French version as well as japanese version talk about the movements. We can also see both Dark Samus and Samus falling at the same speed here. https://youtu.be/6zY8jVfWCdE?t=510

 

[DarthEnderX]

To be fair, I don't think it was Sakurai that said what made an echo fighter. I don't think he explained much about them himself.

To my knowledge, nobody has. There's been no explanation besides "They're based on an existing character...but they have different characteristics." Which is so vague as to be useless.

 

[Curious Villager]

To my knowledge, nobody has. There's been no explanation besides "They're based on an existing character...but they have different characteristics." Which is so vague as to be useless.

Yeah, I'm slowly starting to think that echo fighters is just a rebranding of clones and that Sakurai is just making an option for the new clones to share a spot with their parent characters. Why he didn't do the same with the Melee and Brawl clones I don't know. Seniority I guess...

I'm just going to wait until we get more info from the man himself or see what other echo's get included.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Seeing a roster of echoes without Mr. L as Luigi's makes me want to cry.