East Coast Canada Brawl Stage Discussion

[Deleted member]

DISCUSS STAGES HERE FOR FUTURE ECC TOURNAMENT STANDARDS??

Neutrals

Battlefield - All around perfect stage.
Final Destination - I really hate the edges, I hate the size. I want CP, though I doubt it will be.
Delfino Plaza - I don't really see the downsides of this.
Lylat Cruise - The sides suck, but it's generally okay.
Smashville - The new stage everyone will play. It's probably the best stage.
Yoshi's Island - Nothing glaringly bad. It's a good stage.

Counter-picks

Pokemon Stadium - Really lame sides, windmill is stupid now
Frigate Orpheon - The flips and the side on the end make it difficult to read but still playable.
Distant Planet - The water negates its neutrality.
Battleship Halberd - Claw and laser negates its neutrality.
Norfair - Lava negates its neutrality.
Brinstar - Lava negates its neutrality.
Luigi's Mansion - You survive to insane percentages.
Rainbow Cruise
Electroplankton - It's not neutral, but it shouldn't be banned.
Castle Siege - Statues interrupt play.

Jungle Japes - The water is a beast now.


Banned

Corneria - Lasers negate its neutrality, Metaknight is broken with his loops
Green Hill Zone - The switch interrupts play.
Mario Circuit - Cars are annoying.
Mushroomy Kingdom - No explanation required
Rumble Falls - No explanation required
Donkey Kong 75m - Much too busy, no real strategies
Spear Pillar - The stage changes and pokemon blasts are too game-breaking.
Port Town Aero Dive - Cars kill much too easily.
Wario Ware - Invincibility?
The Summit - Air rides and fish.
Mario Bros. - Easily killed off the sides, too many ceilings, campable.
New Pork City - Much too big, and one hit KO monster.
Flat Zone 2 - Too many stage obstructions.
Temple - Banned in Melee.
Big Blue - Banned in Melee.
Pokemon Stadium 2 - Air, conveyor belts..they aren't playable.
Pirate Ship - Catapult, stage KOs, bombs, air gusts..it's banned.
Skyworld - Surviving to insane percentages, plus back-throw kills.. stupid.
Shadow Moses Island - Walls? No thanks.
Onett - Banned in Melee.
Green Greens - Banned in Melee.
Pictochat - Party stage.
Bridge of Eldin - Bomb negates its neutrality, campable and chain-throws.

 

[TestRider]

Green Greens - Banned in Melee.

Actually Chester used to pick Green Greens as a counterpick.

 

[Deleted member]

Toronto as a community banned it :/ So I dunno.

 

[Percon]

I'll share my thoughts:

For the most part, I'm okay with it. You seem to be pretty lenient with the stages, which I like. Though, I was surprised by a few things.

Bridge of Eldin: Not a big fan. I benefits certain characters WAY too much. Especially when that big hole appears in the middle. Promotes camping way too much, IMO. Pit's already super annoying. :/

Pictochat: I DO like the stage, though I'm afraid I'd rather have it banned. The problem with the obstacles here are that A) You have less than one second to see them coming B) They LAST. Sometimes the problem with an obstacle is the fact that you can see it but can't do **** about it. The spikes that appear on the sides last for a while and prevent successful recoveries from time to time (along with fire/rockets). Oh, and that dividing line... dumbest feature ever. I've seen it edgeguard Niko once. Plus you can just stay in the corner and tech stuff.

Pirate Ship: I'm gonna argue for CP. The obstacles in this course all have 2-3 second startup. They're instantaneous, too, so they can be spotdodged and stuff. (unlike that pictochat fire :/). Cannonballs can be avoided, as I said, and I've never seen the catapult kill someone outright.

Luigi's Mansion: I'm very surprised you'd ban this. Very counterpick material, in my opinion. I don't think "insane percentages" was a fair comparison... sure, you may live a BIT longer than normal, but it's not all bad. Those two tiny little ceiling things shouldn't warrant a ban, IMO. The destructible pillars means that someone could temporarily get rid of the ceilings or change the layout... and adds a bit of depth in regards to stale move negation. Pillers prevent projectile camps. I don't find it particularly hard to kill here, either.

Skyworld: I'd like this to be counterpick, though I don't really have a good reason. Since there's nothing really random about the stage (except maybe the scrolling platform), I'm hoping that we can learn the nuances of this stage to better avoid the annoying stuff.

Anyway, those are my 2 cents. Besides these 5, I agree with the list.

 

[Grmo]

rofl. I like it. You're lenient. Most people are like GAH ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS ITS BANNED

but it's a pretty good list. I like the Mario Kart reasoning.

I'm tempted to disagree with Green Greens and Onett, since they were only banned before because of Fox who is out of the equation in this game. I'm not going to disagree because Dededick's wall infinite is dumb.

Edit: I'm really glad you allowed Pictochat. It can kill, yes, but IMO it is easy to read and there's nothing that just comes out of nowhere except maybe the diagonal line with eyes, which can really screw you over if you're in the wrong place.

I agree with Percon on Pirate ****. I mean Ship. Tempted to agree on Luigi's Mansion because I like it, but nvm for now.

Skyworld is ******** beyond belief.

Smashville is awesome =D

 

[Grmo]

ignore this. for some reason the edit button was invisible so i clicked quote without reading it.

 

[Runawayfire]

Hahahaha If I could somehow convince everyone else to put Halberd on neutral I'd be very happy.

 

[homsar]

I agree that Pirate Ship should be counter pick. Its all really easy to dodge.

Also, Shadow Moses should be counter pick, the walls break so easily its not funny. However, with D3's chain grab it could have some problems. The chain grab also applies to Corneria I believe.

As for Luigis Mansion, I tend to agree that it can be counter pick as well. Ive never lasted far to long here.

Pictochat should be banned. The way it splits the stage sometimes is too troublesome. And as well a hazard such as the fire is sometimes draw right over top of you.

Bridge of Eldin should be banned, as stated earlier it promotes camping with certian characters.

I dont see a problem with green greens anymore. Unless D3's chain grab works there.

 

[D.B]

sounds good

 

[Percon]

Hahahaha If I could somehow convince everyone else to put Halberd on neutral I'd be very happy.

Haha, I'd do it, I love halberd. People would QQ about lasers/claw, though.

 

[Deleted member]

It's not neutral because the Claw picks someone at random. It follows one target. Had it not done that, it might be a legitimate neutral. Not gonna happen, lol.

I know a lot of you guys are feeling Pirate Ship, but honestly, there is no justification to have it as a counter pick. I don't see any reason why the air rides, the catapult, the cannonballs, the masthead, the water, etc make it a legitimate stage. It's definitely a party stage.

I understand that Pictochat has a lot of gay **** going on too. So for the same reasons above, Pictochat is a party stage. I'm banning this.

I'm fine with Mansion being Counterpick for now.

Eldin...I'm quite fine with this being banned. I can see Dedede being lame here, and the camping sounds lame. Let's ban it.

Skyworld:

lol.....no. Not fair whatsoever.

Edit: I updated list.

 

[Percon]

Hmm... yeah, now I don't really have any problems with the list. I'm not gonna bother counterpicking Pirate Ship any time soon so I'm not gonna fight for it. I'm gonna tell Niko to have a look at it for our biweeklies, so we're all on the same page and stuff.

 

[rx-007]

im kinda iffy about delfino plaza being neutral but then again i dont play there much. also i think green greens should unbanned to be for counter pick, the bomb blocks are pretty tame compared some of the other stuff in the counter picks category.

 

[KirbyKaze]

for clarification we banned green greens because it was a heavily debated at large and some tournaments allowed it (pound 3) whereas others didn't (viva la smashtaclysm). since there wasn't a unanimity to the ordeal and nobody seemed to come to any real conclusion, i decided to ask the community what they wanted because at my biweekly switching back and forth would be a hassle. so we decided to ban it for mine.

i believe other local tournaments like the starfurry series allowed it as a counterpick.

 

[Deleted member]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQacicNu2W0

this is why we banned green greens.

 

[Grmo]

rofl yeah

um, k: first off, there was only one starfurry tournament. its not a series...for now. and i banned green greens for that one. i think i allowed it for caketown though.

 

[TyrantWolf]

Green Greens is banned for the spontanious destructive apples that kinda is too random and kills you (I heard Items were banned for that same reason) and for the camera **** upz that it causes. Just thought I could provide you with that info.

Also good job Jake, one step ahead. I was gonna suggest that GTA should do this in person at the first Biweekly, but this was a better idea.

 

[KirbyKaze]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQacicNu2W0

this is why we banned green greens.

i don't get what you mean.

peach sucks on green greens, i'm just terrible with fox and picked him in the set on a whim. good foxes tend not to lose on green greens period. simply because it's so good for him, and part of why it was banned on occasion was adnan's aforementioned randomness with camera fixing and the apples.

are you implying something about me having personal reasons against green greens or...?

 

[unknown522]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQacicNu2W0

this is why we banned green greens.

that doesn't explain why green greens is banned. If someone was constantly being killed by blocks and exploding apples, then maybe I would understand. Spamming down-smash to edgeguard/SD is done in so many places, and is like you're whole play style, so that really doesn't make any sense at all.

The reason why green greens was banned in the GTA, was because only like 2 people used it, (used it well anyways). The floaty mains are the people who wanted to ban it, not everyone wanted it banned in the GTA.

 

[Europhoria]

I wouldn't mind Green Greens being legal. I wanted it banned because of the exploding apple crap. Aside from that it's a good stage in doubles IMO. >_>

 

[Grmo]

Doubles yes, I'd have to agree with that. It's pretty fun on doubles.

I think Jake's video actually does prove why Green Greens is banned. Think about it; Fox ***** on it, but the bombs and general retardedness of the level made Fox get *****.

 

[Europhoria]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQG9TEiGjKo (This is more of a reason for it to be banned then whatever Jake intended to convey IMO... If I had the lead I would do this and camp the match out)

Green Greens encourages hardcore camping which Brawl itself already does enough as it is. Taking out random luck factors is also nice especially when we have tripping to deal with. In brawl it should be banned, but it might legal worthy for melee I guess.

 

[Switchblade]

Ok I only disagree with 2 of those stages:

First off in castle siege I have yet to see how those statues interrupt any sort of gameplay, they only stop projectiles which in any case I've seen in delfino anyway. and I have never seen them interrupt any kind of combo game. If anything i think it makes a valid neutral

letting green hills be legal? if you say the statues in castle siege which "interrupt" game play is a valid enough reason to make it only a counter, then you can say this stage can be banned because not only does it interrupt gameplay but it can kill at a low percentage due to the walls in the stage being RIDICULOUSLY close in, almost flat zone close in.

 

[Percon]

Castle Siege I think should remain CP.

The lips on the first floor can be deadly to some characters. They can be avoided with prudence, but it's annoying.

Second floor is the one most people have gripes with. Since projectiles and a lot of other attacks are messed up by the statues, it results in stalling sometimes. Also, those drapes at the top are ******** and I don't know why they're there. Again, not terrible, but the second floor REALLY changes the pace of the battle.

Third floor is fine.

The transitions are pretty lame, though. They're timed (I think), and you know when they're going to come, but then it's like... flat. I've seen it save people before. Then, when you're falling it's tricky to tell where you're going to come up, especially if the two combatants are close to each other.

Case in point, 2:20 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9IO-xnILHc

We're RIGHT next to each other, but he lives and I don't. I dunno, this was like my second or third session with Brawl, so it may just be me being n00b, but... I was angry at the time D:

 

[Runawayfire]

Green Greens was just retartedly good for Fox in melee, plus there was the bombs and apples.
As for brawl, there's just the latter reason plus the fact that it incredibly encourages camping.

I also agree on Castle seige remaining CP.

 

[Switchblade]

Castle Siege I think should remain CP.

The lips on the first floor can be deadly to some characters. They can be avoided with prudence, but it's annoying.

only for some characters and can be avoided nevertheless, so that doesn't create any reason to make it CP

Second floor is the one most people have gripes with. Since projectiles and a lot of other attacks are messed up by the statues, it results in stalling sometimes. Also, those drapes at the top are ******** and I don't know why they're there. Again, not terrible, but the second floor REALLY changes the pace of the battle.

one minor thing that can change the pace of the game, if thats the case then Delfino should be CP because of its constant change and there are alot of places you can camp horribly

The transitions are pretty lame, though. They're timed (I think), and you know when they're going to come, but then it's like... flat. I've seen it save people before. Then, when you're falling it's tricky to tell where you're going to come up, especially if the two combatants are close to each other.

Case in point, 2:20 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9IO-xnILHc

We're RIGHT next to each other, but he lives and I don't. I dunno, this was like my second or third session with Brawl, so it may just be me being n00b, but... I was angry at the time D:

yes the change is pretty lame but the exact same thing can be said about delfino because those transitions can save AND kill people

so this is what i come to, if castle siege is a CP then Delfino should be one too because they have almost the exact ups and downs that determine whether it should be a CP

 

[Deleted member]

I counter-picked to Green Greens all the time, I knew that it was a broken stage. David came up to me and asked if I thought it should be banned and I said yes, because I knew it was unfair.

I *took* David to GG in that video, he didn't take me.

It's a stupid stage, you can see that he suicided a bunch of times IIRC and he died at low %s, the ceilings are tiny, the apples are annoying, you can camp behind blocks, all I did was turnip spam the first minute...

It's just a stupid stage.

delfino and siege are different - the transitions in delfino you can die from simply not recovering properly, the siege one you live no problem.

Delfino also changes much more than siege, there is less camping because it's changing.

 

[Deleted member]

Community, get @ me with this post.

I think for the first tournament I want to see if it's sensible to put FD to counter. I truly think it's ****ty for a bunch of characters.

Plus, it's a huge factor in time. The matches take forever on FD because of the stage size. And when you do die, it's because of the sides.

What do you guys think? Try it once?

I mean, if we don't attempt new rules now, it's gonna be impossible later on.

 

[TyrantWolf]

I say you leave it as a random. It's not like it'll stay random forever, I mean look what happened to Rainbow Cruise lol. I'm interested to see why FD would be CP, lol I wouldn't mind seeing that, but that's just 'cause it'd be funny.

Why do you think it should be CP'd?

 

[Sanu]

lol, whenever I see CP, I read it as child porn.

 

[Deleted member]

I say you leave it as a random. It's not like it'll stay random forever, I mean look what happened to Rainbow Cruise lol. I'm interested to see why FD would be CP, lol I wouldn't mind seeing that, but that's just 'cause it'd be funny.

Why do you think it should be CP'd?

Just play on it a couple times and you'll see that the overhang on FD is like 3x as gay as the Melee Battlefield.

It sucks. Just plain sucks.

If you wouldn't mind seeing it, then basically you're saying youre okay with it.

also.. this isn't meant to offend you, but - if you aren't playing brawl, why are you interested in helping for stage bans? lolz

 

[Crooked Crow]

are you guys gonna use stage builder for anything lol
make like a less prettier FD, but with a less ******** edge or something

 

[Percon]

Well, FD has never been especially mean to me, aside from the first week of the game. I'm guessing you're in the minority to have it CP.

Obviously, I want it to remain neutral. If the stage gets in the way continually, then discussion about moving it should start IMO. Well, maybe it does get in the way a lot for you guys, but we're pretty cool with it over here.

 

[TyrantWolf]

Just play on it a couple times and you'll see that the overhang on FD is like 3x as gay as the Melee Battlefield.

It sucks. Just plain sucks.

If you wouldn't mind seeing it, then basically you're saying youre okay with it.

also.. this isn't meant to offend you, but - if you aren't playing brawl, why are you interested in helping for stage bans? lolz

What? A middle-eastern guy can't go on and give his opinions/give out some help with stages without being questioned? Wanna fight about it? ***. lol.

I don't like this game whatsoever, but that doesn't mean I want to see it crash and burn lol. I'll give in my input of how stages work and why they should be banned. Some of the people that talk about stages seem to have a lack of explanation as to why a stage might be banned/counterpick.

Kinda like your explaination as to why FD should CP, lol. Good example by mentioning Battlefield haha I hated that stage like a mother****er since the term "You got battlefield'd" came from upb trix/failz I'd do in that game. There was a way to grab that edge, but it was a lot different from the other neutral stages. Other than that it was a perfect stage. Why am I mentioning this?? oh wow, that sounds exactly like FD now. lol I don't think it should be banned, I think people need to get used of that edge like most people did with Battlefield in Melee.

does anyone still wanna fight for no reason? ]: I'm feeling violent right now. LOL.

 

[Drolian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ipYE5VpqQ0

here you go

btw adnan i was gonna say something to you but i forgot D;

 

[alphameric]

While you have counterpicks and neutrals generally correct, there are a couple things that should not be banned:

Green Greens
There really is no reason to ban this stage. It was a counterpick in melee. If you want to say it's banned because of the boxes, then you need to play there more and learn your hitboxes


Pictochat
Ehh.. I can understand where you are coming from, but none of the hazards exactly kill...

Pokemon Stadium 2
Get over the conveyor belts. They REALLY aren't bad. As for the air stage, no reason to ban it since it's a good counterpick for aerial characters. If you are worried about people stalling the match.. well don't because stalling the match was ground for disqualification.

Pirate Ship
The hazards are so freaking obvious man. You have like 10minutes to avoid the cannonballs, catapult, and the boat spike. The gravity gets adjusted when going up and down, and its for like 15seconds. Not nearly a reason to ban it.

Port Town Aero Dive
I can understand where you're coming from, but it's really easy to avoid the cars (get on the platforms). Also, after playing it a couple times you can SEE the cars coming from miles away.


With that said, CoS feels the same way for the most part. Reasoning might be different, but we all agreed long ago that these stages should not be banned due to user error.

 

[Grmo]

Good points, but I still find myself getting ***** on Port Town because I'm too into the match. However, I sure would like to be able to play along to the Mute City song. As for Pictochat, that diagonal line edgeguards and it's such a jerk to everyone excelt the kirby characters, pit, snake, and I guess ROB.

PS. nice sig.

 

[Kjdjy]

For whatever they're worth, my thoughts:

Mario Circuit for banned because there is no down-kill zone, chaingrabs and side camping prevails

Delfino as counterpick because of water/flat sections

Pirate Ship as counterpick because the hazards (only cannonballs and catapult) arent as bad as other hazard-legal stages (Norfair), plus water is really cool and has unique strategies

The rest dont bother me, could argue Stadium 2 for counterpick though and I dont particularly like Green Hill at all but I guess preference doesn't matter here.

 

[Grmo]

I agree mostly, except for Delfino. I don't think the water is that bad. The flat section is sort of dumb but it's bearable, and short. Then again it might be an easy kill for Dedede. Just avoid getting grabbed I guess. I dunno, thoughts? Delfino has raised a lot of discussion so I think it would be worth talking about. Personally I'm all for it being neutral.

 

[alphameric]

I don't really care if Delfino goes counter or neutral.
As I was just telling Steve, play Port Town a couple times and instead of playing the match just learn the cars. You can always see them coming with plenty of time to dodge.
Banning Pirate Ship and not Norfair is just realllly weird to me. If anything Norfair should be banned since the hazards are MUCH larger and MUCH deadlier than the ones on Pirate Ship.

It's like Brinstar, you learn the lava. How many of you actually pay attention to it in order to avoid getting burned? I for one learned that **** a long *** time ago and don't even need to think about which level it's going to rise to =/

As for Mario Circuit and Green Hill Zone being banned, I disagree because stalling the match is still stalling the match no matter how you do it, and nobody likes to play a camping game. And like I've said before, it's easy to outgrab people in brawl, making it just as dangerous to be the camper as it is to be the person away from the edge.

HOWEVER, if one of those should be banned, it should be Green Hill Zone > Mario Circuit, simply because there are more ways to approach a camping person on the circuit than in the zone.

Also, Green Greens is NOT the same level it once was.
The skybox is bigger, the bombs are weaker, brawl makes the ledges impossible to miss, and the exploding apples are rare and weak. If you want to ban the stage, have a legit reason. I mean, if the exploding apples are THAT bad to you, then ban Peach players from pulling Bombombs and D3's from pulling Gordos. Those are more common AND deadlier.