Early Smash 5 Fan-Made Rosters (Ideal or Prediction)

[Sharkarat]

Anyway, it's more like how Link, Toon Link, and Young Link are treated as unique characters. It'd just be the same for Ganondorf, Ganon, and Beast Ganon in this case. I'm aware of the fact that the comparison isn't all that perfect.

That's because Zelda-Shiek would be a better comparision than Link.

Oddly enough, he doesn't have any proper trophies for his Moblin form at all. It's kind of strange that his original form is unmentioned in Smash at all despite being his most iconic version. But to be fair, Ganondorf did barely make it into Smash itself, so that could have something to do with it.

No Throphy is because throphies use model from other games, and the only Ganon Model other than TP is the OoT one.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That's because Zelda-Shiek would be a better comparision than Link

I'm talking about 3 versions of Ganon/dorf, so the Zelda-Sheik one doesn't work.

No Throphy is because throphies use model from other games, and the only Ganon Model other than TP is the OoT one.

I've never seen that spelling of Trophy before. Is that a UK English version? Just honestly wondering.

And they could've had the OOT one considering OOT3D came out not long before Smash 3DS and Smash Wii U. The stickers actually showed off stuff from well beyond one current game, so that has no excuse at this point. The trophies are based blatantly on relevance. If OOT Impa is relevant, OOT Ganon is even more relevant. It's really hard to say why Ganon gets absolutely zero references beyond his TP and WW versions, even when other versions are relevant...

 

[Sharkarat]

I'm talking about 3 versions of Ganon/dorf, so the Zelda-Sheik one doesn't work.

I'm kinda refering to the fact that the Links are different characters, while Ganon/Ganondorf are forms of the same character.

I've never seen that spelling of Trophy before. Is that a UK English version? Just honestly wondering.

Nah, I Just misspelled it.

And they could've had the OOT one considering OOT3D came out not long before Smash 3DS and Smash Wii U. The stickers actually showed off stuff from well beyond one current game, so that has no excuse at this point. The trophies are based blatantly on relevance. If OOT Impa is relevant, OOT Ganon is even more relevant. It's really hard to say why Ganon gets absolutely zero references beyond his TP and WW versions, even when other versions are relevant...

Trophy/sticker choices are kinda weird anyway. Impa Didn't have any reference to her in smash before 4, not even a sticker. And Melee didn't have Diddy Kong trophy.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm kinda refering to the fact that the Links are different characters, while Ganon/Ganondorf are forms of the same character.

Link and Young Link are the same person in Melee as well. Also, Moblin Ganon is a different form and never seen in WW or TP, so it's compared to Toon Link and not Sheik as well. But the point was 3 different variations of a playable character. It really didn't matter what games they were in as much.

Trophy/sticker choices are kinda weird anyway. Impa Didn't have any reference to her in smash before 4, not even a sticker. And Melee didn't have Diddy Kong trophy.

That annoyed me about Impa, but she wasn't relevant during Brawl's time. Only in Melee. And then around 4's time. Diddy Kong isn't weird, Rare had a fallout with Nintendo around that time and there was copyright issues. They couldn't license a trophy usage at the time. It's the same reason why Diddy Kong wouldn't have been in Melee even if there was thought about it. Albeit, considering Diddy was intended to be with Dixie Kong as a tag team, I wonder if Diddy was even thought of for Melee. I don't remember who was on the "Character List for Melee". I know James Bond was talked about, and many others(an old post that had some like Wario was debunked, although Wario did get talked about. There were many others, like Pokemon Trainer).

 

[Sharkarat]

Link and Young Link are the same person in Melee as well. Also, Moblin Ganon is a different form and never seen in WW or TP, so it's compared to Toon Link and not Sheik as well. But the point was 3 different variations of a playable character. It really didn't matter what games they were in as much.

I'm still not convinced the Beast-Moblin distinction is anything more than a design thing. It's just named Ganon in TP.
The final smash is problably named Beast Ganon because it sounds better than just Ganon as name for a move.

That annoyed me about Impa, but she wasn't relevant during Brawl's time. Only in Melee. And then around 4's time. Diddy Kong isn't weird, Rare had a fallout with Nintendo around that time and there was copyright issues. They couldn't license a trophy usage at the time.

I'm mostly trying to say that trophies doesn't really mean anything.

remember I see Ganon and Impa as the only real possible newcomers for zelda, but think they have really low chances. And while i see Impa as slightly more likely, I want Ganon more.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth : From what I can tell, the Child Timeline Ganondorf never did show the ability to become the true Ganon. The Beast Ganon transformation was due to the twilight powers that he acquired from Zant.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm still not convinced the Beast-Moblin distinction is anything more than a design thing. It's just named Ganon in TP.
The final smash is problably named Beast Ganon because it sounds better than just Ganon as name for a move.
I'm mostly trying to say that trophies doesn't really mean anything.

To call any form of Ganon besides TP and HW a "beast" would be inaccurate anyway. He's definitely a Moblin in other games(which isn't just a design choice, it's very clear he's meant to be the king of them, which obviously was taken away as an irrelevant plot point since only ALttP is where it makes sense. The Hylian Soldiers become Moblins in the Dark World, in which case he matches their designs overall. Just like every game where he'd bipedal. Again, even Puppet Ganon is based upon a Moblin. TP is an outlier and purposely just Ganondorf changing his form to a warthog-like beast to battle Link's Bestial form, respectively. We've seen proof he can become more than one kind of Ganon, as he has access to 3 different ones, being all 3 Ganondorfs are the same person. Moblin is Dark World-related, however. When he enters the Dark World, he's never been in a form outside of that, but that's partially due to backstory. His dark presence in the Sacred Realm created the Dark World. Which, at least at one time, probably meant they were intending to tie Moblins and Ganon together directly, but likely since it was kind of too hard to explain(he didn't create the Sacred Realm, his darkness only corrupted it into becoming the Dark World), so it wouldn't make much sense.

remember I see Ganon and Impa as the only real possible newcomers for zelda, but think they have really low chances. And while i see Impa as slightly more likely, I want Ganon more.

The reality is Tingle is definitely among the top 3. No other character is prominent, notably, or has there own games among anyone but those 3 still in. Tingle was dropped due to lack of popularity, but has proven to be quite popular thanks to HW showing people still do want him. He's also the only character to get any officially approved spin-offs. While it sucks that it didn't come to the US, that cannot be ignored. He's a very important character to the Zelda franchise overall, something that Impa is only making her way up to so far. Her role wasn't super big in SS by any means. But she definitely was huge in HW, a main character. Ganon is obviously the most important before either of them, as his Moblin form, the only actual specific villain other than Ganondorf of the two. Beast Ganon and Puppet Ganon are just one-off forms Ganondorf takes, as he's the overall main villain of any game he's been in so far. Beast Ganon is nothing more than a transformation in Smash, and a temporary one at that because he's not actually that important overall.

Verde Coeden Scalesworth : From what I can tell, the Child Timeline Ganondorf never did show the ability to become the true Ganon. The Beast Ganon transformation was due to the twilight powers that he acquired from Zant.

The Triforce glowed too, just like it did with Link becoming Wolf Link. Mind you, the Triforce was toned down in its importance in the plot, but it was still a plot device, just not the focus of the plot. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the Twilight Realm had a major influence on Ganondorf's normal transformation technique. In WW, he has 3 unique Ganon forms. One could argue is that it represents how much he's changed as a person and can try new things. What is notable is that his wish to restore Hyrule may be influenced by more than "wanting to rule". I don't think it's entirely clear, but having his entire race wiped out likely did influence his wish overall. There's nothing to suggest he is somehow not evil, but it wasn't clear if it was out of malice, revenge, or sadness. I mean, don't forget his own mother was killed by Link and all. He's had a very long time to think back on everything. He's also far more calm than any other game, which is no doubt showing he has had immense characterization.

TP on the other hand has him flat, but they also don't give him real time to try and think about things. He's about to be sentenced to death overall, so what else can he do? The fact the Gods suddenly give him the Triforce of Power do suggest that they somehow approve of Demise's curse too. Why even give him that when they know he would cause trouble? Because destiny says so, and they don't want that changed, no matter how much time is manipulated. To say the least, man the Zelda series is nuts.

 

[Sharkarat]

The reality is Tingle is definitely among the top 3. No other character is prominent, notably, or has there own games among anyone but those 3 still in.

I think the current rumor is that next smash release is kinda an enhanced port, so I think Tingle will keep his status as Assist trophy. If not I would put him with the two I mentioned. He's also the kind of characters that fits as an assist trophy.

Ganon Stuff....

Your argument hinges on the assumption that Sakurai sees Ganondorf & Ganon the same way he sees Link & Young Link. He might also see Ganon as just Ganondorf, and think the current version works as representation.

You also play up his relation to Moblins, But in story they exist even before Ganon(dorf) in the timeline. Also a lot of the games that uses Moblin Ganon use Bulldog Moblins. Only in AlttP, aLBW (and kinda WW) has a Moblin Ganon and no Bulldog Moblin.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Your argument hinges on the assumption that Sakurai sees Ganondorf & Ganon the same way he sees Link & Young Link. He might also see Ganon as just Ganondorf, and think the current version works as representation.

Whoever is arguing "Well, Ganondorf only appears in a few games" knows full well that Ganon and Ganondorf both represent the same character and is willfully ignoring it so they can justify less important characters (Impa). It's basically starting with the conclusion and working your way back from there rather than finding evidence that naturally works towards a conclusion.

The reality is Tingle is definitely among the top 3. No other character is prominent, notably, or has there own games among anyone but those 3 still in. Tingle was dropped due to lack of popularity, but has proven to be quite popular thanks to HW showing people still do want him.

Tingle is definitely the most likely Zelda newcomer along with Toon Zelda. Since there are no other legit characters of note, it would make sense to have one from a spin off series who already makes popular cameos in the mainstream one.

 

[Sharkarat]

Whoever is arguing "Well, Ganondorf only appears in a few games" knows full well that Ganon and Ganondorf both represent the same character and is willfully ignoring it so they can justify less important characters (Impa). It's basically starting with the conclusion and working your way back from there rather than finding evidence that naturally works towards a conclusion.

In the context here we are arguing if the Ganon form is "really" in smash or not. This makes the difference between potential newcomer and already in game (but not the way we want it). So if anything it was used to justify Ganon is more likely.

Tingle is definitely the most likely Zelda newcomer along with Toon Zelda. Since there are no other legit characters of note, it would make sense to have one from a spin off series who already makes popular cameos in the mainstream one.

Personally while I don't see Toon Zelda as Impossible, I don't think she's that likely. Since I don't think they will bring back transformations she would be on her own (No Tetra), she is is pretty much guaranteed to be a clone (she has no unique potential from zelda), her addition would fall on if Sakurai feels that there should be two Zeldas or not.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

In the context here we are arguing if the Ganon form is "really" in smash or not. This makes the difference between potential newcomer and already in game (but not the way we want it). So if anything it was used to justify Ganon is more likely. Personally while I don't see Toon Zelda as Impossible, I don't think she's that likely. Since I don't think they will bring back transformations she would be on her own (No Tetra), she is is pretty much guaranteed to be a clone (she has no unique potential from zelda), her addition would fall on if Sakurai feels that there should be two Zeldas or not.

I don't see why not. People love Link. People love Zelda. Toon Zelda is adorable and if I'm correct is the most highly requested Zelda character. (out of the viable candidates. AKA not Vaati or Ghirahim.)

Also, the fact that there are no longer transformations is why she is perfect for this installment. Zelda's down special is already based on one of Toon Zelda's abilities so it's perfect.

If not Toon Zelda, Tetra by herself is also a good idea in my opinion. But, I think having the Toon version of Zelda would be justified. I think Zelda deserves it and a lot of people love Toon Zelda. But, to clarify, I only think she has a chance as DLC or in a port. Or if Sakurai thinks giving the fans another LOZ character is that important.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Saying Ganondorf's Moblin Ganon form(as in the bipedal version) is in Smash isn't even up for debate. It's literally not in there. His Beast Form from TP is. Puppet Ganon is too in some way, as a Trophy. There are 3 literal forms of Ganon. One is nothing more than a short transformation attack. It is not actually treated as a remote character in the files either, as you cannot directly play as it in either game like you could certain transformation characters(Giga Bowser, Super Sonic, Wario-Man, who all have actual ability to be played as). You could replace it with him using his Dead Man's Volley or King Bulbin running down the opponent with the same overall result and the impact would be the same in how "important" this so-called transformation is. It's actually sad they dumbed down one of his best and unique forms to a weak cutscene, despite it actually being a real boss fight.

Again, that's like saying we can't have two separately playable Links. But we do. Each game but Smash 64. One version of Ganon(with a special name no less to separate it from Ganon's 3 very distinct versions, so people didn't confuse it with the actual iconic Ganon version, which has always held the Moblin Design, even to the point that he didn't have an immensely large size till a Moblin finally did. He was always bigger than Moblins, but usually not by a severe amount. WW subverted that finally, but then again, he used Puppet Ganon, not the regular Bipedal form, which again, is the iconic version of Ganon people clearly want playable.)

As much as I want Tingle, he's not really likely to happen. It has jack all to do with his AT status(which he obviously got due to being a very notable character, quite a lot of popularity through 2/3 of the world(UK and Asian countries. He was only unpopular in the US regions... which has changed as well over the years), it's the popularity issue first. He's absolutely the most notable after the main 10(Link, Young Link, Toon Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, Moblin Ganon, Toon Zelda, Tetra, Toon Ganondorf), being he's the only Zelda character to earn himself more games. That cannot be denied when it comes to notability.

Impa is more prominent now, but she didn't gain real notoriety till SS and later HW. She is a viable candidate, and clearly has multiple moves to draw from among her games. Ones very unique from Sheik. Sheik's moveset is more or less an original one that bar her Up B and Down B in Melee/Brawl, didn't come from a game at all.

Tetra is way more likely than Toon Zelda being she actually has unique properties to take from now. Toon Zelda(and a similar counterpart planned as Toon Sheik, at least, again, the plan, since the actual data files explicitly has that and no other name) was at one time planned for Brawl, clearly as clones. While I'd imagine Tetra would replace the Toon Sheik idea due to being easier to make a unique moveset for, it actually is easier to make Toon Sheik due to simply being a clone. Being Sakurai made Giga Bowser with an actual proper Smash moveset, there's really nothing to suggest he would care if they're a canon character or not(the fact he's even remotely playable without a cheat device, even if a short period of time, further cements the idea that yes, he could make an OC playable if he want to. Keeping in mind that the Mii Fighters come from the Smash Universe, and Captain Falcon's moveset uses a full outside source of inspiration, namely Japanese Superheroes, like Kamen Rider, he doesn't really really care if everything is canon. There's always more to it than that). Should go without saying I'd have preferred Tetra, but the idea that he couldn't make a Toon Sheik is pretty easy to debunk until we have evidence(like his own statement and no way to play as OC characters(hi, Giga Bowser). The only evidence is among 7 files for playable characters. 6 are clear as day who they meant. 1 is not(Pra_Mai).

Likewise, Ganon is absolutely not even remotely and properly represented in his iconic form in any way. Not even a Trophy or a Sticker. Let's stop pretending his iconic form is in the game and being he has a legit design that could make for a character, cannot be a possible choice. There are many reasons he could not be in. For instance, maybe his best window was Melee when OOT was shown off, and we know they only had enough time for a bunch of clones. Maybe Sakurai doesn't want any more playable Zelda characters(he really does like Ganondorf and his old moveset, after all). Maybe he doesn't like the idea of Ganon and Ganondorf having a weapon as a key part of their movesets. Nobody knows. Doesn't mean Ganondorf iconic transformation exists in Smash. Just quick and small cameos of his other two forms of Ganon that don't have much prominence in the Zelda series as a whole.

 

[Sharkarat]

I don't see why not. People love Link. People love Zelda. Toon Zelda is adorable and if I'm correct is the most highly requested Zelda character. (out of the viable candidates. AKA not Vaati or Ghirahim.)

Do you have any source on popularity? Don't think her popularity is that high

If not Toon Zelda, Tetra by herself is also a good idea in my opinion. But, I think having the Toon version of Zelda would be justified. I think Zelda deserves it and a lot of people love Toon Zelda. But, to clarify, I only think she has a chance as DLC or in a port. Or if Sakurai thinks giving the fans another LOZ character is that important.

Nah, I don't think Tetra without Zelda is that important of a character.

Saying Ganondorf's Moblin Ganon form(as in the bipedal version) is in Smash isn't even up for debate. It's literally not in there. His Beast Form from TP is. Puppet Ganon is too in some way, as a Trophy. There are 3 literal forms of Ganon.

Likewise, Ganon is absolutely not even remotely and properly represented in his iconic form in any way. Not even a Trophy or a Sticker. Let's stop pretending his iconic form is in the game and being he has a legit design that could make for a character, cannot be a possible choice. There are many reasons he could not be in. For instance, maybe his best window was Melee when OOT was shown off, and they only had enough time for a clone. Maybe Sakurai doesn't want any more playable Zelda characters(he really does like Ganondorf and his old moveset, after all). Maybe he doesn't like the idea of Ganon and Ganondorf having a weapon as a key part of their movesets. Nobody knows. Doesn't mean Ganondorf iconic transformation exists in Smash. Just quick and small cameos of his other two forms of Ganon that don't have much prominence in the Zelda series as a whole.

I'm pretty sure Puppet Ganon isn't a trophy. And I agree that Ganon is horribly represented.
I'm just arguing that Sakurai might not care about the Moblin-Beast distinction. Like you say there's no hint of Ganon when ignoring the beast variation, and based on that you can argue that Sakurai most simply doesn't care about (Moblin) Ganon. It's not like Ganondorf is the best represented character himself either.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Do you have any source on popularity? Her popularity doesn't seem that high

Experience. Forums, Mods, Fan rosters. I mean I know that's just my experience, but I guess you can try looking up recorded statistics and find out.

Nah, Tetra without Zelda isn't an important character.

I'd say she is in the Toon Series.

Saying Ganondorf's Moblin Ganon form(as in the bipedal version) is in Smash isn't even up for debate. It's literally not in there. His Beast Form from TP is. Puppet Ganon is too in some way, as a Trophy. There are 3 literal forms of Ganon. One is nothing more than a short transformation attack. It is not actually treated as a remote character in the files either, as you cannot directly play as it in either game like you could certain transformation characters(Giga Bowser, Super Sonic, Wario-Man, who all have actual ability to be played as). You could replace it with him using his Dead Man's Volley or King Bulbin running down the opponent with the same overall result and the impact would be the same in how "important" this so-called transformation is. It's actually sad they dumbed down one of his best and unique forms to a weak cutscene, despite it actually being a real boss fight.

I just don't see the point. I think the headline should be that Ganon/Ganondorf himself is represented in Super Smash Brothers. I just don't think anybody really cares to the point that it's necessary that this specific form of Ganon needs to be "represented."

Again, that's like saying we can't have two separately playable Links.

Eeeeeh, no. It's really not the same. Link is the main character and the fact that there are some games that vary whether you play as the adult version or child version make the child version's inclusion completely justified. And having Ganon and Ganondorf would require a new moveset. Why have them be two seperate characters? Having him as a Final Smash makes way more sense.

Impa is more prominent now, but she didn't gain real notoriety till SS and later HW. She is a viable candidate, and clearly has multiple moves to draw from among her games. Ones very unique from Sheik. Sheik's moveset is more or less an original one that bar her Up B and Down B in Melee/Brawl, didn't come from a game at all.

Impa is not on the level of the other Zelda characters. That's why I think she's just important enough to be satisfactorily represeted as Sheik's costume. They both are Sheikahs with the same physique and Sheik learned her abilities from Impa so it makes sense. I don't think Impa is important enough to have time wasted on her. Just my two cents the issue.

Tetra is way more likely than Toon Zelda being she actually has unique properties to take from now. Toon Zelda

Having a unique move set does not automatically make you more likely than someone who shares moves with another character. Otherwise semi-clones wouldn't even exist.

Likewise, Ganon is absolutely not even remotely and properly represented in his iconic form in any way.

So what?

Not even a Trophy or a Sticker. Let's stop pretending his iconic form is in the game and being he has a legit design that could make for a character, cannot be a possible choice.

Nobody is arguing that this specific form of Ganon is "properly represented" in Smash. The point is that the character Ganon as a whole IS. So there's no point in wasting our concern, time, and energy on something that doesn't matter. If it's so important throw a trophy in there. Don't make a whole character out of it.

There are many reasons he could not be in. For instance, maybe his best window was Melee when OOT was shown off, and we know they only had enough time for a bunch of clones. Maybe Sakurai doesn't want any more playable Zelda characters(he really does like Ganondorf and his old moveset, after all). Maybe he doesn't like the idea of Ganon and Ganondorf having a weapon as a key part of their movesets. Nobody knows. Doesn't mean Ganondorf iconic transformation exists in Smash. Just quick and small cameos of his other two forms of Ganon that don't have much prominence in the Zelda series as a whole.

Again, I was simply making the argument that there is no need for it to exist in Smash. I never said that it was.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Tetra is overshadowed by Zelda's other forms to some degree, but she's the main character of WW after Toon Link himself(and of course, Toon Ganondorf). This is the first Zelda game she fought in as well(albeit, after being stupidly forced into her Toon Zelda design and forgetting a lot about why Tetra was so notable). But that's an issue with the Toon series making Zelda and her forms a "gotta rescue them" more than making them notable on their own merits. Toon Zelda wasn't even interesting till ST, as she's just a maiden to be rescued in WW, nonexistence in PH as well. Tetra played a huge role during WW in more than just story, she also helped you out along similar to what Sheik does. Also why some people think the Toon_Sheik file was "Tetra"(with no evidence to back it up other than Toon Sheik doesn't exist, which as noted, doesn't work when Giga Bowser proves OC's will be made where necessary). Tetra did suck in PH, but that's because they turned her into a stone, being a literal object to rescue. ST isn't much better, basically having you rescue Zelda's physical body again, but you at least had her spirit with you, and not as a metaphor this time. Toon Zelda isn't exactly much more important, if more important at all. Toon Zelda and Tetra pretty much have equal roles in the story of WW, and the last two games in the Toon timeline only had one of each, both reduced to objects. They just had different kinds of roles in their story(Tetra wasn't allowed to be active, but Toon Zelda was).

While it's understandable you don't like the choice, please stop downplaying a character's role in the stories. It's getting a bit annoying now, and at this point, you're using it as a poor excuse to dismiss characters. Especially since you're not just wrong about it, you're ignoring everything said about how important they are. It's understandable to say some aren't important to the franchise as a whole(who is really more important than Link, Zelda, Ganon, and Ganondorf anyway to the franchise as a whole? The only two characters to come remotely close to those 4 are the most notable secondary characters who consistently have had roles in multiple Zelda games, being Tingle and Impa. Tingle doesn't play a story role by default, although he does get his own stories/games, which is an odd one to pick, but that's proof of his popularity and all, whereas Impa got increased roles after OOT to the point of being more than just a plot device. Unfortunately, while her role in OOT is fairly notable, all she did was help a little with the plot at first, and become a key character in the defeat of Ganon/dorf).

 

[Opossum]

Let's just add Darunia and call it a day.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Let's just add Darunia and call it a day.

No.

Let's add Ruto.

Or Impa...

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Tetra is overshadowed by Zelda's other forms to some degree, but she's the main character of WW after Toon Link himself(and of course, Toon Ganondorf). This is the first Zelda game she fought in as well(albeit, after being stupidly forced into her Toon Zelda design and forgetting a lot about why Tetra was so notable). But that's an issue with the Toon series making Zelda and her forms a "gotta rescue them" more than making them notable on their own merits. Toon Zelda wasn't even interesting till ST, as she's just a maiden to be rescued in WW, nonexistence in PH as well. Tetra played a huge role during WW in more than just story, she also helped you out along similar to what Sheik does. Also why some people think the Toon_Sheik file was "Tetra"(with no evidence to back it up other than Toon Sheik doesn't exist, which as noted, doesn't work when Giga Bowser proves OC's will be made where necessary). Tetra did suck in PH, but that's because they turned her into a stone, being a literal object to rescue. ST isn't much better, basically having you rescue Zelda's physical body again, but you at least had her spirit with you, and not as a metaphor this time. Toon Zelda isn't exactly much more important, if more important at all. Toon Zelda and Tetra pretty much have equal roles in the story of WW, and the last two games in the Toon timeline only had one of each, both reduced to objects. They just had different kinds of roles in their story(Tetra wasn't allowed to be active, but Toon Zelda was).

While it's understandable you don't like the choice, please stop downplaying a character's role in the stories. It's getting a bit annoying now, and at this point, you're using it as a poor excuse to dismiss characters. Especially since you're not just wrong about it, you're ignoring everything said about how important they are. It's understandable to say some aren't important to the franchise as a whole(who is really more important than Link, Zelda, Ganon, and Ganondorf anyway to the franchise as a whole? The only two characters to come remotely close to those 4 are the most notable secondary characters who consistently have had roles in multiple Zelda games, being Tingle and Impa. Tingle doesn't play a story role by default, although he does get his own stories/games, which is an odd one to pick, but that's proof of his popularity and all, whereas Impa got increased roles after OOT to the point of being more than just a plot device. Unfortunately, while her role in OOT is fairly notable, all she did was help a little with the plot at first, and become a key character in the defeat of Ganon/dorf).

What's annoying is that you assume I dislike a character choice simply because I disagree that it's a realistic one. That's kind of a strawman. You are resorting to declaring that I am biased against a character in order to dismiss my right to have an opinion on their likeliness to appear as a playable character. That is not the case. I never expressed any distain for any character ever. I don't consider whether or not I am fond of a character to be relevant. Never have I responded to someone's proposal with "Well, I don't like that character."

So you're claim that I use that as an excuse to dismiss characters is an outright lie and with all due respect, I really don't appreciate that.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Oh, I made a roster, btw.

The extra Mii is a Mii Magician.
(I also really wanted to add Phoenix Wright, but maybe I'll do that some other day)

 

[Sharkarat]

What's annoying is that you assume I dislike a character choice simply because I disagree that it's a realistic one. That's kind of a strawman. You are resorting to declaring that I am biased against a character in order to dismiss my right to have an opinion on their likeliness to appear as a playable character. That is not the case. I never expressed any distain for any character ever. I don't consider whether or not I am fond of a character to be relevant. Never have I responded to someone's proposal with "Well, I don't like that character."

So you're claim that I use that as an excuse to dismiss characters is an outright lie and with all due respect, I really don't appreciate that.

One reason for the assumed disliked, is that you're saying making Impa or Ganon would be Waste of time, which pretty much mean you think they would be bad additions.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

One reason for the assumed disliked, is that you're saying making Impa or Ganon would be Waste of time, which pretty much mean you think they would be bad additions.

No. It means I think they would be unnecessary additions. It means I believe their amount of significance is not worth the effort it takes to develop them.

Gengar is one of my favorite video game characters and I would still agree that focusing effort on developing him into a Super Smash Bros. character would be a waste of time because there is not enough of a basis to do so.

Oh, I made a roster, btw.

The extra Mii is a Mii Magician.
(I also really wanted to add Phoenix Wright, but maybe I'll do that some other day)

I respectfully disagree with pretty much every single newcomer on here, besides Inkling and Banjo. But, the only one I will comment on iis Incineroar because I think it's a no brainer that Decidueye would make the cut. He's easily the most unique and popular of the choices. Plus it would be better to have a Grass starter than another fire starter.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Just a reminder to all. Dismissing one's argument tends to not go well and can easily get people riled up. Likewise, if you have to something to say about a person's argument, do tag them to make sure you understand it right. They will correct you if it's wrong.

If I do say a paragraph or sentence in purely bolded text, this is a Mod Post and that text should never be responded to on the thread(stuff not bolded is considered just my own personal posting and does not count as a mod post). Either PM me if you have questions, or just listen to the post as directed.

That is all.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

So I never heard anyone comment on my roster. I was kind of curious what people thought. It's okay if you have any grievances with it of course.

 

[N3ON]

So I never heard anyone comment on my roster. I was kind of curious what people thought. It's okay if you have any grievances with it of course.

It's best not to hold one's breath for choices like Goroh and Pichu (and possibly Louie depending on whether he plays a role in the upcoming Pikmin game), but nothing about it is particularly offensive. Many of the newcomers are fairly standard, ostensibly safe picks.

Though your only new third party being Shadow is not a very good call.

And if it's a Smash 5 roster, going forward with no cuts is unrealistic. If it's an expanded Smash 4 roster then it's a bit overly ambitious.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

It's best not to hold one's breath for choices like Goroh and Pichu (and possibly Louie depending on whether he plays a role in the upcoming Pikmin game), but nothing about it is particularly offensive. Many of the newcomers are fairly standard, ostensibly safe picks.

Don't worry. I agree those are unlikely choices. I was just making the roster from the perspective of if I had Sakurai's job. If I was given the responsibility of making good choices for the fans, I believe those would be good ones. I know they are not highly requested, but I think like most unexpected additions, if the fans saw them in action they would see why they are good additions.

Though your only new third party being Shadow is not a very good call.

I think it's a good idea. I don't think we need anymore new Third Party additions. I added Shadow as kind of a bonus because third-party additions bring a lot of publicity how you say. Lots of fans are clamoring for a new Sonic character and Shadow is the most popular request and already shares a few abilities with Sonic.

And if it's a Smash 5 roster, going forward with no cuts is unrealistic. If it's an expanded Smash 4 roster then it's a bit overly ambitious.

Fair enough.

But, if nobody else has any comments on my rosters, I think I'm going to excuse myself from the thread. People seem to be taking some issues with me.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Since the thread's actual rules are ill-defined, some arguments have broken out that has caused some pointless misunderstandings.

The owner, SMX, will be talked to about it. When the thread is re-opened, it will have some new rules, and everybody will be expected to follow any rule changes made. Those rule changes will be on the first post, and for a bit, the thread title will give a reminder about this.

Last but not least, apologies to a very specific user(he knows who he is) for what happened and my behavior was hardly perfect on this thread either. Have yourselves a nice night.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Update: The thread will be unlocked now. While no new rules were added as was originally intended(unless SMX suddenly adds some..., but maybe he's a Ninja? ), do remember to respect people's opinions and roster choices.

Once again, do not reply to this message. If you have questions, you can PM me. I doubt anyone will need to anyway

 

[Ura]

I've returned from a long hiatus and spoke with Irene. Will be adding a rule to the OP. Remember to respect everyone's opinions no matter how much you disagree with them.

 

[N3ON]

Don't worry. I agree those are unlikely choices. I was just making the roster from the perspective of if I had Sakurai's job. If I was given the responsibility of making good choices for the fans, I believe those would be good ones. I know they are not highly requested, but I think like most unexpected additions, if the fans saw them in action they would see why they are good additions.

I mean, people already know what Pichu in Smash entails, and most are generally apathetic about it at best.

And Goroh's cool, but apart from a wishlist or a new F-Zero doesn't have a ton of business being on a roster anymore. He'd only serve a small subset of the fanbase at this point, there are other characters who would fill his niche of pleasing the diehard fans better, like K. Rool or Isaac. But I mean, if you're Sakurai, I guess it's up to you. It's not like he's a poor fit for Smash, just a fairly unlikely one who is generally outclassed in the roles he could serve.

I think it's a good idea. I don't think we need anymore new Third Party additions. I added Shadow as kind of a bonus because third-party additions bring a lot of publicity how you say. Lots of fans are clamoring for a new Sonic character and Shadow is the most popular request and already shares a few abilities with Sonic.

It's not a good idea, and one only needs to see the direction Smash is heading to see it's not stopping anytime soon, nor why it would stop from a business or fan perspective. It's not even a question of whether it "needs" them as much as it is the reasons we'd keep getting them versus the reasons we'd stop. I mean, do we still "need" clones?

It seems biased and unrealistic to exclude them now. As does thinking Shadow can supplant the publicity of a roster's worth of third-party newcomers. Especially since, not only is Shadow as a character divisive, but, until it gets broken, the very concept of a second third-party from a series in Smash, is divisive.

I'm not against getting a second Sonic character, and while I don't like Shadow I'm not even going to say getting him as the second is outside the realm of possibility (though I'm going to need a source on him being the 2nd most requested Sonic character, seems a dubious claim), but having the only new third-party as the second character from an already represented series is a bad call. Regardless of character.

But, if nobody else has any comments on my rosters, I think I'm going to excuse myself from the thread. People seem to be taking some issues with me.

Well, try not to let it get to you. But do whatever you feel is best. There's a rather rigid mindset at work here, and those that operate outside it are generally met with this kind of reaction. I always admire those willing to be a singular voice of opposition.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

It's not a good idea, and one only needs to see the direction Smash is heading to see it's not stopping anytime soon, nor why it would stop from a business or fan perspective. It's not even a question of whether it "needs" them as much as it is the reasons we'd keep getting them versus the reasons we'd stop. I mean, do we still "need" clones?

It seems biased and unrealistic to exclude them now. As does thinking Shadow can supplant the publicity of a roster's worth of third-party newcomers. Especially since, not only is Shadow as a character divisive, but, until it gets broken, the very concept of a second third-party from a series in Smash, is divisive.

I'm not against getting a second Sonic character, and while I don't like Shadow I'm not even going to say getting him as the second is outside the realm of possibility (though I'm going to need a source on him being the 2nd most requested Sonic character, seems a dubious claim), but having the only new third-party as the second character from an already represented series is a bad call. Regardless of character.

I'm just saying, in my opinion we have a pretty satisfactory roster of third parties. And you're right. I really shouldn't use "needs" as an argument because it's such a nothing argument that people can use on anything.

But, what I meant by "needs" is that I thought we were pretty set with third-parties. I don't add clones because I go "We need some more clone characters." I add characters and if they happen to be clones than so be it.

The thing is, to clarify again, Shadow is more of a bonus character. Not the kind that would become a staple. More of a selling point for a port or DLC. He's there because the point of Switch would be to add new content to an existing game rather than choose characters from the start. If I was making a new Smash game from scratch I would not even consider adding Shadow. But, of course I'm not being entirely realistic because this roster is me pretending that there's not a very scarce limitation of newcomers. I'm making this roster from the perspective of adding on to the existing one rather than making one from scratch. So I focus on some lesser characters like Goroh & Toon Zelda who are deserving and would make series more complete, but just would never make it in because of priority reasons.

And never say never. I thought it was preposterous for the same company to get 2 third parties.

Well, try not to let it get to you. But do whatever you feel is best. There's a rather rigid mindset at work here, and those that operate outside it are generally met with this kind of reaction. I always admire those willing to be a singular voice of opposition.

Well, thank you. I try not to be so opposing all the time. Comes across as attention-seeking. I just have a history of taking extreme issue with ideas that have been accepted as the norm in Smash communities.

I try to train myself to just be done with a conversation (I don't really like to do forums these days), but I'm a procrastinator. When I'm on my computer I refresh all my bookmarks looking for something to do because it literally is an addiction and if there is site that keeps refreshing with new reasons to give my attention, I get sucked in.

 

[Ura]

Anyways I haven't done a roster in some time so I made one based on a hypothetical Switch port. It's mixed with what I expect will happen and what I want to see happen with the Switch port. Ask me anything about the roster.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Anyways I haven't done a roster in some time so I made one based on a hypothetical Switch port. It's mixed with what I expect will happen and what I want to see happen with the Switch port. Ask me anything about the roster.

DONKEY KONG JR! I love him.

 

[Swop]

Characters "I" would like to see:
BANJO
CHIBI-ROBO
Q*BERT (shoot stuff out his nose, hops around, throws a disc, smacks people with his nose, idk lol)
TY THE TASMANIAN TIGER (Uses his signature boomerangs for unique playstyle)
MIKE JONES (I honestly have no Idea, but his taunt better be him putting a banana in his ear)
INKLING
ICE CLIMBERS

Characters I will disagree with:
SHADOW (Mainly my issue with the fanbase rather the character, it would be the equivalent of Alt Costume FG Cloud)
DIXIE (Looks too much like a Diddy clone)
SNAKE (Konami)
WOLF (would rather see Krystal imo)
TOAD (why?)

Characters I think will be cut:
LUCINA/DPIT/DRMARIO (Obvious clone reasons)
CORRIN (I would say Robin, but Robin's game saved Fire Emblem)
ROY (No good reason, I Just feel like he will be)
BAYONETTA (Possibly 3rd party issues plus theres the fact of complaining parents with their child's new Bayonetta amiibo lmao)

BAYONETTA: Ok on another note with is that I would like to see her stay- Not because I like the character (God I despise Bayonetta) but if Banjo was to ever be in the game, I would love to see the Bear and Bird duo take down another Witch!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

but his taunt better be him putting a banana in his ear)

Bananas?

Mainly my issue with the fanbase rather the character

Then let me say, get away from the Smash fanbase.

It's one of the worst out there.

it would be the equivalent of Alt Costume FG Cloud

Wait. That's your reason? That's rather petty don't you think?

Looks too much like a Diddy clone

After Rosalina I don't think we can say "they'd just be a clone" at face value. Yeah, some rather obvious characters happen but its not a gaurantee.

Point is, Dixie can be unique and it helps she can't actually do some of the things Diddy does.

SNAKE (Konami)

Just to clarify? Does this mean you don't want Snake because of Konami or that you don't think he'll happen because of Konami.

TOAD (why?)

Why not? He's among the most popular Mario characters, has been showing up in the main 2D platformers for years as playable characters and even got a new spin with Captain Toad (along with his own game).

There are a lot of reasons people want Toad and honestly the little dude could be pretty dang cool.

CORRIN (I would say Robin, but Robin's game saved Fire Emblem)

Why cut either?

I mean assuming we cut Lucina that gives us...



Which is a pretty fair FE roster (not that the one we have no isn't fair, it's just fine considering circumstances that led to it).

Even then you can cut Roy (woe is me) and you have the four most popular main characters for the FE series left (Roy and Lucina along with Lyn and Hector are also some of the most popular but I digress).



Four is just fine I think. Especially since they're all unique and memorable.

Even then I personally feel Roy and/or Lucina will come back.

I think we won't get any FE cuts outside of time restraints, we just won't get a new FE character.

BAYONETTA (Possibly 3rd party issues plus theres the fact of complaining parents with their child's new Bayonetta amiibo lmao)

I don't think Bayonetta will ever have 3rd Party issues.

Not only is Bayonetta 2 partially owned by Nintendo but the Bayonetta IP is owned by Sega.

And unless Sonic is leaving, she has no third party issues.

And just to clarify, Platinum does not own the IP. They are the developers, but they don't own it so ultimately it isn't their say.


Plus I don't think there has been any outcry against Bayonetta by parents. If there was, I don't think an amiibo triggered it.

Besides, her smash pose is just about as lewd as say... Zero Suit Samus. As in it shows the butt a little and not much else.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

This is more of a wishful roster. Thanks to @SilverEra & Sharkarat for icons.

Elaboration on my vision for Shadow:

• Neutral Special: Homing Attack
• Side Special: Chaos Spear
• Down Special: Spin Dash
• Up Special: Chaos Control (Teleport)
• Final Smash: Super Shadow
• Home Stage: Casino Night
• Has many original moves of his own in place where Sonic's moves would not fit Shadow's character. Still shares some moves like Up Smash, Dash Attack, and Neutral Air.

Elaboration on vision for Louie:

• Carries White, Purple, and Rock Pikmin
• Rides Hocatate Ship (Olimar rides S.S. Dolphin)
• Slightly slower with slightly bigger hitbox
• More lethargic fighting style
• Winged Pikmin carry him by his feet (upside down, seemingly as if against his will)
• Victory Highlight of him being carried by two Purple Pikmin and one White Pikmin while asleep (like in Pikmin 2) and then he wakes up when they drop him on top of the white Pikmin.
• Victory Highlight of him eaten Pikpik Carrots before being spotted.
• Victory Highlight of him bored. (Like the opening cutscene of Pikmin 2)

Elaboration on vision for Waluigi:

• I have Waluigi because I believe he is ripe for the potential to make a completely invented move set rather than the lame move sets that are of him doing stuff from Mario games. I believe Sakurai could make up a move set for Waluigi based on his personality the way he did for Wario.

Elaboration on vision for Samurai Goroh:

• Neutral Special: Stingray Punch
• Side Special: Katana Boost
• Down Special: Stingray Kick
• Up Special: Stingray Dive
• Final Smash: Fire Stingray
• Non special attacks are unique mixture of body strength and katana attacks with electrical damage

New changes to veterans!!!

• Orange & White Yoshi
• Olimar retains only original Pikmin colors and has S.S. Dolphin (Still has Winged Pikmin)
• Sonic's side special is Light Speed Dash. Sonic characters lose rings when KO'd.
• Cloud has American voice clips. Advent costumes are their own set.
• Peach has her own victory theme (theme that plays when you rescue Princess Peach)
• Dr. Mario has his own Final Smash & Victory Theme

New differences for alternate costumes!!! (purely cosmetic)

• Alph & Brittany have S.S. Drake + Voice clips
• Ms. Pac-Man has her own idle animation
• Impa is a costume of Sheik and retains her Ocarina of Time design
• Dry Bowser has blue fire and his own Giga form
• Koopalings have corresponding colors for grab arm
• Daisy Differences:
  - Hearts are flowers
  - Toad is Toadette

 

[Swop]

SNAKE: Yeah pretty much Konami being Konami, unless like someone else in this thread said konami will finally break down and let snake come back (or even better bomberman)

SHADOW: Ok, I will give you that, it is pretty petty but c'mon, Alt Costume FG cloud is everywhere you can't deny that and with Shadow's Edgy personality that fits that bill, well its just going to add to the list.
and about the Fanbase, yes, yes it is the worst one out there but I keep on crawling back.

TOAD: He just doesn't look like a fighter, having those little stubby legs, short arms and big head- and ok, Kirby is even smaller than him and with even stubbier arms but kirby has the fighting potential and power, what does toad have? well, hes literally the generic character in the mushroom kingdom and sure hes been playable, he can spin, throw fire, jump around, etc. but he just seems like such an awkward pick and alot of people like him and want him playable because hes popular and people like him, now as for my Q*bert pick above, I will contradict what I've said here because lmao, Q*Bert as a fighter is way more awkward than toad, but at the end of the day, its who people would like to see in the game, not who they think SHOULD be in the game, and yeah people will disagree or even agree with other people's choices.

FIRE EMBLEM/CUT: If sakurai/Smash team can keep all the characters from the game and just port them to future titles well that would be amazing, but if they would need to cut some characters I think the ones people look to is mainly the clones.
I'm not Sakurai, but if I was I'd be looking at those characters.

BAYONETTA: Alright, you got me there with the ZSS comparability.
Also SEGA Owns Bayonetta? very odd, I mean I knew Platinum games works on her but wow I thought Platinum owned her, and with that the case yeah, I wouldn't see much a problem

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Toad's role in most games just isn't really big name and there's not a lot of source material of which to base a move set off of. And for those who are gonna be like "Well, yeah there is he could do this!" It's usually best to add a character that already has a lot of potential than to go on a desperate search for things to fit said character.

When picking characters, the idea for the move set should come from natural inspiration rather than being forced. I notice people like start with the character and work their way BACKWARDS rather than forwards. Instead of letting the inspiration come naturally they go "Well, we already have this character. Now we have to go on a desperate search to find anything that could fit into a move set. I know! Toad is in the item house in Mario 3, we'll make his move set based around Mario items!" It's kind of a stretch. Plus there is way more to take into consideration than just four special moves. It's the entire fighting style of the character in general.

One of the reasons Sakurai picked Greninja was because he saw potential in him. He didn't pick Greninja and then go "Okay, now we have to search for reasons he could have a potential move set." The potential was already there. Same with Chrom. Sakurai picked Robin over Chrom because there was already a ripe source of material. If he had picked Chrom he would have to have gone backwards rather than forwards to search for ways to differentiate him from previous Fire Emblem characters.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

SNAKE: Yeah pretty much Konami being Konami, unless like someone else in this thread said konami will finally break down and let snake come back (or even better bomberman)

Or even better.

Snake, Bomberman and Simon.

Alt Costume FG cloud is everywhere you can't deny that

Really? I don't see that many Clouds. It's always Mario and Falcon.

TOAD: He just doesn't look like a fighter, having those little stubby legs, short arms and big head- and ok, Kirby is even smaller than him and with even stubbier arms but kirby has the fighting potential and power, what does toad have? well, hes literally the generic character in the mushroom kingdom and sure hes been playable, he can spin, throw fire, jump around, etc. but he just seems like such an awkward pick and alot of people like him and want him playable because hes popular and people like him,

When picking characters, the idea for the move set should come from natural inspiration rather than being forced. I notice people like start with the character and work their way BACKWARDS rather than forwards. Instead of letting the inspiration come naturally they go "Well, we already have this character. Now we have to go on a desperate search to find anything that could fit into a move set. I know! Toad is in the item house in Mario 3, we'll make his move set based around Mario items!" It's kind of a stretch. Plus there is way more to take into consideration than just four special moves. It's the entire fighting style of the character in general.

I'm surprised you guys can't think of a unique moveset for Toad.

I mean if we take the qualities he's had in the Mario platformers...

• Small
• Really Fast
• Low Jumper
• Really Strong
• Odd body shape

I get an idea for a glass canon like Little Mac and I haven't even delved into movesets at large as Little Mac and Toad obviously can't share moves. This feels like less of Toad being a potentially boring character and you guys not looking for something to use for him.

The dude has potential. I just don't think you guys are accepting it because you think its boring.

You're making the same mistake people made with Rosalina back in the day.

One of the reasons Sakurai picked Greninja was because he saw potential in him. He didn't pick Greninja and then go "Okay, now we have to search for reasons he could have a potential move set." The potential was already there. Same with Chrom. Sakurai picked Robin over Chrom because there was already a ripe source of material. If he had picked Chrom he would have to have gone backwards rather than forwards to search for ways to differentiate him from previous Fire Emblem characters.

Not exactly.

He's gone backwards before and had to make things up before.



All examples of traits, attacks and ideas that were made up for the characters as those traits either didn't exist of their original games, didn't belong to them, or only existed in a meta sense.

He's gone backwards before.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Not exactly.

He's gone backwards before and had to make things up before.



All examples of traits, attacks and ideas that were made up for the characters as those traits either didn't exist of their original games, didn't belong to them, or only existed in a meta sense.

He's gone backwards before.

Um. These characters had GREAT potential. I think you took what I said too literally.

First of all, most of these characters do NOT have made up moves. Ness? PSI is not a made up move. PSI exists in EarthBound and is one of Ness's abilities. Sakurai did not invent PSI. That trait belongs to Ness. All of these characters have traits that belong to them. I hope you're not implying that because Ness doesn't use very specific PSI moves in canon that this is an example of Sakurai's incredible genius.

As for Captain Falcon and Marth, well back in those games they were unique additions. Captain Falcon's moves were ripped from Dragon King The Fighting Game and fighting with a sword is a trait that belongs to Marth. Not sure why Rosalina is on your list either. And Shulk? Well what about his ability to change his stats and see the future?

These are all examples of characters with a basis to move forward on ideas. They all provide inspiration like "Wow! Look at all the stuff I could do with a character likes this! I can do this or that with this character." With Toad the idea is "Okay, Toad has to be a character in the game. Uh, uh, uh, Oh I know! Items! Because you get items from Toad houses, right?!" And then Toad has a whole other move set outside of 4 specials. I don't see where the potential for that is.

The dude has potential. I just don't think you guys are accepting it because you think its boring.

Is it wrong to dismiss a character because they are boring? People used to argue that they could come up with all kinds of moves with Chrom. Well, yeah maybe Chrom wouldn't be a clone, but he would still be boring.

 

[N3ON]

I don't understand the point of arguing against a character's unique potential when there unique fan-made movesets out there for him already. Just go find some of those. He obv can be made unique and has enough potential to be included.

If all you see for Toad is a boring bland moveset, or no moveset at all, that's a dearth of creativity on your part.