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Early Smash 5 Fan-Made Rosters (Ideal or Prediction)

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Swamp Sensei

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Yo @QuintonShark8714

You don't have to ask people questions on their rosters constantly. Sometimes, people just want to post their own opinions.

It's cool to just watch and see what happens man.
 

Autumn ♫

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The reason why it's so messy is because it's still a work in progress. I was trying to lower the amount of characters I usually have in my roster (usually 83 or 84) to a more realistic number. (The veteran cuts of Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, and Roy was a lot harder to do than expected)
 

Sharkarat

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The reason why it's so messy is because it's still a work in progress. I was trying to lower the amount of characters I usually have in my roster (usually 83 or 84) to a more realistic number. (The veteran cuts of Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, and Roy was a lot harder to do than expected)
Just a my opinion, but i don't think they would keep lucina if they cut the other two clones.
 

Opossum

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Just a my opinion, but i don't think they would keep lucina if they cut the other two clones.
On the other hand, I think she's much more likely to be included than either Doc or Dark Pit due to her massive fan base within Fire Emblem. Roy, IMO, is a much more likely cut than Lucina.
 

Sharkarat

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On the other hand, I think she's much more likely to be included than either Doc or Dark Pit due to her massive fan base within Fire Emblem. Roy, IMO, is a much more likely cut than Lucina.
I have to admit I have no idea about how popular she is within Fire Emblem.
 

Autumn ♫

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Just a my opinion, but i don't think they would keep lucina if they cut the other two clones.
Along with what Opossum Opossum said, Dr.Mario and Dark Pit to an extent work as alts. while Lucina being an alt. doesn't make any sense to me, considering Marth and Lucina really shouldn't fight anything alike in their games, along with Lucina starting to be in the big leagues with Marth, Ike, Sigurd, and Eliwood.
 

N3ON

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I think Doc is the most likely of the three since Sakurai keeps attempting to bring him back. Like there hasn't been a game since Melee that he wasn't going to be on the roster in some way. I mean I'd rather have Lucina, but FE seems like it's going to be a revolving door kinda series in Smash. Marth and Ike and probably Robin will stick around, can't say for sure about the other three.

But Dark Pit will probably get the axe which is nice because bleh to him. Sorry Dark Pit fans and people that want everyone to be nice about everything.

They could also just be downgraded to alts. Don't know how likely that is, but I doubt think people would really mind if that's what happened.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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The thing about Dark Pit is that the only thing that makes him stand out is his personality. I wish he was far more different, but most of his attacks are literally identical. Like, Pichu is more unique. He doesn't feel bad as an alt, because as long as his personality is there, it's all good. That's why I like him.

Lucina's issue is that if she was an alt... it would barely make a difference. Her moveset doesn't feel unique at all. I would rather have her go back to being an alt than cut entirely, though.

As for Dr. Mario, he feels different enough. If Mario retained his Melee moveset, I'd be okay with him being an alt as long as his moves are re-skinned with proper sounds. But clearly he doesn't want to remove F.L.U.D.D., which is far harder to reskin than simply the Megavitamins(which other than a sound, can easily work identically to the Fireballs. Well, also would have a slightly different animation, but that's it).
 

Swamp Sensei

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On the other hand, I think she's much more likely to be included than either Doc or Dark Pit due to her massive fan base within Fire Emblem. Roy, IMO, is a much more likely cut than Lucina.
I never really got the Roy is more likely to be cut than Lucina thing.

Lucina has popularity within the Fire Emblem fanbase but her gameplay style has almost no individuality to it.

I mean Roy before he was Luigified had more of a unique style.

Not to mention Roy has been getting the requests for quite some time (enough to be DLC). He's well established as a character and a request whereas Lucina barely got past being an alt.

Granted, Lucina has some real potential but I'm not sure she'll ever reach it.

All that said I think the Fire Emblem characters in order of likeliness are...

:4marth:/:4myfriends: (Practically Guaranteed)
:4robinm: (Very Likely)
:4feroy:/:4corrin: (Likely)
:4lucina: (Iffy)



:4drmario: and :4darkpit: are also iffy for me, but I feel if we get any clone, its Doc, due to seniority and the most unique moveset of the three.

considering Marth and Lucina really shouldn't fight anything alike in their games
They fight with the same blade and Lucina literally disguised herself as Marth.

Yes, their fighting styles are different in their games but considering Lucina shared animations with Chrom (and a few others) I think we can blame that on technical aspects. The idea of them being alts makes sense and Sakurai clearly thought so.


That said, I want everyone to come back and :4alph:to be promoted. I don't like alt characters outside of the Koopalings. Cheapens both characters to me.
 

CardiganBoy

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If Lucina retains her popularity i think it could be likely to see her returning and even decloned, or maybe with some new attacks that represent her better.
 

Arcadenik

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I don't mind if SSB5 have all 58 characters from SSB4.

But I do hope that SSB5 will bring back most (if not all) of the cut characters. :younglinkmelee::pichumelee::squirtle::ivysaur::wolf::popo::snake:

And add about 15-25 newcomers. These are the characters I want the most:

Red = my top 5
Green = practically a shoo-in for SSB5 that I don't even need to include this in my top 5

Mario newcomers
Toad (with Captain Toad alternate costume)
Paper Mario

Donkey Kong newcomers
Dixie Kong
King K. Rool
Donkey Kong Jr.

Zelda newcomers
Toon Zelda
Tingle
Linkle
Impa :4diddy:

Pokemon newcomers
Meowth (with Alolan Meowth alternate costume)
Decidueye

Kirby newcomer
Waddle Dee (with Bandana Waddle Dee alternate costume)

Pikmin newcomer
Alph (Olimar semi-clone with Rock Pikmin instead of Red, Blue, Yellow, White, and Purple Pikmin)

Wario newcomer
Overalls Wario (Wario Land version of Wario with moves from Wario Land games like power-up pots and transformations)

Kid Icarus newcomer
Medusa

Retro Nintendo newcomers
Takamaru (The Mysterious Murasame Castle)
Mike Jones (StarTropics)
Captain N
Track Meet (World Class Track Meet)
Lip (Panel de Pon)
Muddy (Mole Mania)

Modern Nintendo newcomers
Inklings (Splatoon)
Chorus Kids (Rhythm Heaven)
Wandering Heroes (StreetPass Mii Plaza)
Mallo (Pushmo)
Infantry Unit (Advance Wars)
Isaac (Golden Sun)
Starfy (The Legendary Starfy)
Chibi-Robo

Retro Third-Party newcomers
Simon Belmont (Castlevania)
Ryu Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden)
Arthur (Ghosts 'n Goblins)
Bub & Bob (Bubble Bobble)
Billy Lee (with Jimmy Lee alternate costume) (Double Dragon)
Bill Rizer (with Lance Bean alternate costume) (Contra)
Crono (Chrono Trigger)
Banjo-Kazooie

Modern Third-Party newcomers
Rayman
Shantae
Shovel Knight
Yeah, I am still casting my net wide. That's why I was satisfied with my SSB4 catches: :4duckhunt::4littlemac::4megaman::4mii::4pacman::4palutena::4ryu::4villager:
 
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Diddy Kong

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No Impa A'nick? NO IMPA!? What sort of traitorous scheme you're pulling on me, whilst you think am not watching? :glare:

That being said, I'll post my ideas. First what I think is realistic, second, what I truely want.

Realistic, or at least.. Semi-realistic knowing my luck with this sort of ****:

Smash For's Roster minus characters that where real stupid additions such as :4mii:.
Other cuts: :4darkpit::4lucina:
Cuts I also would LOVE to see happening: :4pacman::4cloud::4bayonetta::4corrin:/:4robinm:(choose) *(these all have a realistic chance of happening I feel)
Cut that could happen for some reason which I never cared about anyway: :4shulk:

New Additions:

1) Dixie Kong

-Tropical Freeze should've made this happen during this eration of Smash. Ugh, still bummed by this. I don't even care if they'd make her a 95% Diddy clone at this point either. Just do it ffs. Don't disagree with me on this, I'd have to murder someone for it.

2) Impa

-Breath of the Wild, make this happen. Otherwise, just throw her in as a Hyrule Warriors character, because that's cool to. Y'all liked Hyrule Warriors right? Okay, then accept Impa as Lord and Savior.

The rest of this is too difficult.

I really have no preferences anymore.

K.Rool and Isaac will never happen, and we're bound to experience a new Pokemon character and some new Mario character will suddenly show up, wether it's Dr.Luigi, Captain Toad or whoever, I don't care anyway.

Fix Ganondorf like 3 billions of people asked before me. And add back Wolf, and possibly those broken eskimos if they can be made unbroken (doubt it tho).
 

TheLastJinjo

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Super Smash Bros. Switch Roster Layout

New Additions:
  • Decidueye - Pokemon Sun & Pokemon Moon
  • Elma - Xenoblade X
  • Inkling - Splatoon
  • Wolf - Star Fox
  • Ice Climbers - Ice Climber NES
I believe these additions are self explanatory, but if you're wondering why Decidueye over the other Pokemon, he is definitely the coolest and most popular Pokemon. He brings massive move set potential, is a Grass Starter, and also a Ghost Pokemon.

I suppose if they decided to add two more characters (for balancing purposes, having 65 instead of 63) I would probably assume Rhythm Heaven Troupe and Toon Zelda.

A lot of fans are clamoring for another Zelda character, and she would fit well in this installment more than any. Especially with Zelda's new downspecial which originated from one of Toon Zelda's most iconic appearances and no longer requires her to have her own Sheik character. She's also just a popular request in general.

Also wouldn't mind seeing Star Fox Zero redesigns with Wolf's new voice actor.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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I'll give it a shot with some of my inputs. Character names colored green are newcomers.
  • Super Mario Bros.
    • :4mario:
    • :4luigi:
    • :4peach:
    • :4bowser:
    • :4bowserjr::4larry::4morton::4wendy::4iggy::4roy::4lemmy::4ludwig:
  • Donkey Kong Country
    • :4dk:
    • :4diddy:
    • Dixie Kong
    • King K. Rool
  • Yoshi's Island
    • :4yoshi:
  • Super Mario Galaxy
    • :rosalina:
  • WarioWare, Inc.
    • :4wario::4wario2:
  • The Legend of Zelda
    • :4link:
    • :4zelda:
    • :4sheik:
    • :4ganondorf:
    • :4tlink:
    • Impa (preferably based on her Skyward Sword or Hyrule Warriors appearance)
  • Metroid
    • :4samus:
    • :4zss:
  • Kirby
    • :4kirby:
    • :4dedede:
    • :4metaknight:
    • Bandana Waddle Dee
  • Star Fox
    • :4fox:
    • :4falco:
    • :wolf:
  • Pokemon
    • :4pikachu:
    • :4charizard:
    • :4lucario:
    • :4jigglypuff:
    • :4greninja: (Ash-Greninja becomes Greninja's Final Smash)
    • :4mewtwo:
  • F-Zero
    • :4falcon:
  • EarthBound / Mother
    • :4ness:
    • :4lucas:
  • Fire Emblem
    • :4marth:
    • :4myfriends:
    • :4robinm::4robinf:
    • :4corrin::4corrinf:
  • Game & Watch
    • :4gaw:
  • Kid Icarus
    • :4pit:
    • :4palutena:
  • Pikmin
    • :4olimar::4alph:
  • Animal Crossing
    • :4villager::4villagerf:
  • Wii Fit
    • :4wiifit::4wiifitm:
  • Punch-Out!!
    • :4littlemac::4wiremac:
  • Xenoblade Chronicles
    • :4shulk:
  • NES Classics
    • :popo: (odd number color slots control Popo; even number color slots control Nana)
    • :4rob:
    • :4duckhunt:
  • Splatoon
    • Inkling (can choose between male or female)
  • 3rd Party
    • :4pacman:
    • :4megaman:
    • :4ryu:
    • :4sonic:
    • Chocobo
    • Crash Bandicoot
    • Rayman
    • Shantae (modify her wardrobe to be less revealing)
SSB3DS / SSBU Participants Cut
:4drmario::4feroy::4darkpit::4lucina::4cloud::4bayonetta::4miibrawl::4miisword::4miigun:

Reasons
The inclusion of Dixie Kong and K. Rool are for some extra Donkey Kong Country representation, with Dixie serving as a third primary antagonist, while K. Rool represents the villain position.

Impa has had many different appearances, but at least two of her appearances look manageable enough for a playable spot. Hyrule Warriors is a spin-off though, so Skyward Sword would be the next best pick.

Bandana Waddle Dee has been a rather frequent character, and he has shown to do well with using spears. Why not use that spear for Smash Bros. combat?

Wolf and Ice Climbers come back. There won't be anything holding back the Ice Climbers, since the main reason for their exclusion from Smash 3DS / Wii U was due to the 3DS's inability to handle their mechanics. As for Wolf, he is Fox's rival, and it felt quite insulting to not see him.

I haven't played Splatoon, but the Inkling would be an obvious representative for that franchise.

As for 3rd party representation, Crash Bandicoot has had some appearances on Nintendo consoles, and interestingly enough, he does appear in the Wii U version of Skylanders Imaginators. Rayman got a trophy cameo in Smash Wii U, so it would be interesting to see if he could get the playable promotion. Shantae would basically represent some of the various Indie games that exist, but her wardrobe may need to be worked on. Chocobo is the Final Fantasy mascot, and is probably one of the most memorable characters in the Final Fantasy franchise.

In regards to cuts, Dark Pit and Lucina seem to be one time only representatives. The Miis also don't get second chances, especially with their lack of viability. Cloud's removal is mostly due to the fact that Final Fantasy VII has yet to appear on a Nintendo console. Bayonetta, I don't even know why she made the cut. Dr. Mario and Roy get the boot, mostly to reduce more of the clone population.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I'll give it a shot with some of my inputs. Character names colored green are newcomers.
  • Super Mario Bros.
    • :4mario:
    • :4luigi:
    • :4peach:
    • :4bowser:
    • :4bowserjr::4larry::4morton::4wendy::4iggy::4roy::4lemmy::4ludwig:
  • Donkey Kong Country
    • :4dk:
    • :4diddy:
    • Dixie Kong
    • King K. Rool
  • Yoshi's Island
    • :4yoshi:
  • Super Mario Galaxy
    • :rosalina:
  • WarioWare, Inc.
    • :4wario::4wario2:
  • The Legend of Zelda
    • :4link:
    • :4zelda:
    • :4sheik:
    • :4ganondorf:
    • :4tlink:
    • Impa (preferably based on her Skyward Sword or Hyrule Warriors appearance)
  • Metroid
    • :4samus:
    • :4zss:
  • Kirby
    • :4kirby:
    • :4dedede:
    • :4metaknight:
    • Bandana Waddle Dee
  • Star Fox
    • :4fox:
    • :4falco:
    • :wolf:
  • Pokemon
    • :4pikachu:
    • :4charizard:
    • :4lucario:
    • :4jigglypuff:
    • :4greninja: (Ash-Greninja becomes Greninja's Final Smash)
    • :4mewtwo:
  • F-Zero
    • :4falcon:
  • EarthBound / Mother
    • :4ness:
    • :4lucas:
  • Fire Emblem
    • :4marth:
    • :4myfriends:
    • :4robinm::4robinf:
    • :4corrin::4corrinf:
  • Game & Watch
    • :4gaw:
  • Kid Icarus
    • :4pit:
    • :4palutena:
  • Pikmin
    • :4olimar::4alph:
  • Animal Crossing
    • :4villager::4villagerf:
  • Wii Fit
    • :4wiifit::4wiifitm:
  • Punch-Out!!
    • :4littlemac::4wiremac:
  • Xenoblade Chronicles
    • :4shulk:
  • NES Classics
    • :popo: (odd number color slots control Popo; even number color slots control Nana)
    • :4rob:
    • :4duckhunt:
  • Splatoon
    • Inkling (can choose between male or female)
  • 3rd Party
    • :4pacman:
    • :4megaman:
    • :4ryu:
    • :4sonic:
    • Chocobo
    • Crash Bandicoot
    • Rayman
    • Shantae (modify her wardrobe to be less revealing)
SSB3DS / SSBU Participants Cut
:4drmario::4feroy::4darkpit::4lucina::4cloud::4bayonetta::4miibrawl::4miisword::4miigun:

Reasons
The inclusion of Dixie Kong and K. Rool are for some extra Donkey Kong Country representation, with Dixie serving as a third primary antagonist, while K. Rool represents the villain position.

Impa has had many different appearances, but at least two of her appearances look manageable enough for a playable spot. Hyrule Warriors is a spin-off though, so Skyward Sword would be the next best pick.

Bandana Waddle Dee has been a rather frequent character, and he has shown to do well with using spears. Why not use that spear for Smash Bros. combat?

Wolf and Ice Climbers come back. There won't be anything holding back the Ice Climbers, since the main reason for their exclusion from Smash 3DS / Wii U was due to the 3DS's inability to handle their mechanics. As for Wolf, he is Fox's rival, and it felt quite insulting to not see him.

I haven't played Splatoon, but the Inkling would be an obvious representative for that franchise.

As for 3rd party representation, Crash Bandicoot has had some appearances on Nintendo consoles, and interestingly enough, he does appear in the Wii U version of Skylanders Imaginators. Rayman got a trophy cameo in Smash Wii U, so it would be interesting to see if he could get the playable promotion. Shantae would basically represent some of the various Indie games that exist, but her wardrobe may need to be worked on. Chocobo is the Final Fantasy mascot, and is probably one of the most memorable characters in the Final Fantasy franchise.

In regards to cuts, Dark Pit and Lucina seem to be one time only representatives. The Miis also don't get second chances, especially with their lack of viability. Cloud's removal is mostly due to the fact that Final Fantasy VII has yet to appear on a Nintendo console. Bayonetta, I don't even know why she made the cut. Dr. Mario and Roy get the boot, mostly to reduce more of the clone population.
Two things I'd like to note; Bayonetta got the cut because she won the Smash Poll. Obviously in a new Smash game, I don't consider her that likely, but I'm gathering you mean an all new Smash game, not an enhanced port. Correct me if that's wrong, please.

Roy is not a clone anymore and got heavily changed up. He's basically far more like Ganondorf is.

I have my own opinions on who should go and not, but I disagree with removing Cloud(a highly memorable and iconic character) for a less known one and far less popular addition. I get why, due to FFVII having no Nintendo appearances, which makes more sense(mind you, I'm sure you're aware that a character just needs to originate in a video game to be eligible to get into Smash when it comes to 3rd parties, and for that matter, 1st/2nd party characters need to have an official video game appearance. For instance, and apparently, Captain N is a first party Nintendo character. Note that the person didn't really cite the source, but let's go with this as an example nonetheless. He has zero video game appearances. Thus, he cannot make it in regardless of being actually notable on his own merits, although fairly obscure at this point).

My other things to note; What's going on with Mario? Is he now back to his Melee self to some degree, which means you feel the clones take away from the uniqueness factor. Cause obviously Dr. Mario's spin alone separated him heavily from regular Mario. Lucina and Dark Pit respectively play significantly more similar, which is why I also feel they're not likely for regular future games, but Doc is(or at least will be his own unique character if playable, never an alt).

Impa, while neat, should be after a form of Ganon, imo. The reason is that Ganon has no playable representation(no, Ganondorf doesn't count and his Beast Ganon form is entirely different from the proper boss players fought in many Zelda games). The two key forms that have the easiest moveset potential of the canon games are OOT and ALttP. It's matter of whether you want the trident or double swords. That said, I think Impa has even more options as a composite character using moves from all across her appearances, but also using her Oracles appearance could boost her moveset potential while avoiding making her an easy clone of Sheik. Also, despite her gaining somewhat more importance, I have a feeling that unless Tingle is trapped in Assist Trophy hell, he's probably more likely. Having his own games is notable here. And he's the only one with fully approved Nintendo games to boot. Obviously the CD-i games are not ones Nintendo likes, and I don't blame them. They were forced to actually let them be made due to a contract and all.

Bayonetta really should stay. She's an amazing character and was the most popular feasible addition to the roster they could find among the poll. She also provides a lot of combo potential and moves, while removing the extreme kiddy image Nintendo has, but still is made very respectable for Smash. BTW, why didn't you return Snake(outside of I'm guessing Konami being jerks, that is).

Pokemon-wise, no issues, but you're not clear on when you think this game would come out, so it's hard to say what games you're taking into account for relevancy. If Ash-Greninja is there, it's fair to say that SM are highly relevant. May I ask why you didn't choose anyone from there?

I have recommendations for smaller series. Yoshi has Kamek, who somehow falls under that specific series officially despite clearly being an active regular Mario character. Wario absolutely has Ashley as the most logical secondary choice at this time(she's being pushed the most out of his own series. And before one says Waluigi, he is officially not part of the Wario franchise, sadly so). F-Zero, while I would like more, is fine due to being a dead series respectively. Same with Mother. Animal Crossing is arguable in it getting more, but Isabelle fighting doesn't seem right at all. She's too kind. Someone who is fine with being violent would make the most sense(Resetti, Nook), imo. Why not Medusa or Viridi added for some unique flavor to the Kid Icarus cast? I get why Dark Pit is gone, and unless he could get more unique moves(via weapons), I think cutting him is reasonable. We don't have any nature-based fighters or ones who are snake-like or even have the option to turn someone to stone temporarily.

Finally, Shantae. She doesn't make sense over Quote, who is more overall iconic, or Shovel Knight, who is the most pushed Indie character since(and is highly popular still with some major hype and upcoming constant DLC. While the hype died down a bit, it's still very notable as a game right now. He also was the only Indie character to get an amiibo, which suggests he's probably the most in-tune with Nintendo at this point). There's also representatives from Freedom Planet and Yooka-Laylee, both right now doing extremely well/severely hyped up. Last but not least, if you too heavily modify Shantae's outfit(like taking away the belly-dancing style), you lose a lot of her flavor. As Bayonetta proved, you can still tone it down while keeping the spirit of the character.

Beyond that, I do ask again; When do you think this will come out? Lastly, is this a wishlist or a prediction list?

The reason I ask the last two questions is that the game series takes relevancy into account when making a roster, which wishlist or prediction list, it should still be useful as a tool for figuring out what people would like the most. In the wishlist's case, it makes sense for many choices. As a prediction list, it has a lot of questionable changes(which I pointed out already), and it also depends on factors, like who you think would be the main Director as well.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Verde Coeden Scalesworth Verde Coeden Scalesworth : It's more of a wishlist if anything. I will admit that some of my inputs are highly questionable, but I didn't want to be too excessive with the roster total either.
I had other criticisms among my post, but fair enough. A lot of what I said is the idea is that it's prediction-based. But thank you for answering the most important question nonetheless. :)

...I'll have to work on a Smash 5(as in all new game) roster soon enough. Probably will have a few characters that are a "wishlist, but totally not realistic", which easily include Ridley, Brian(Quest 64), Fulgore(Killer Instinct), and Agumon(Digimon). And the last two have more realism than the first two, but still.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I had other criticisms among my post, but fair enough. A lot of what I said is the idea is that it's prediction-based. But thank you for answering the most important question nonetheless. :)
If you need any more answers, there are a few things that I can bring up.

In regards to Pokemon, I can't think of a single 7th generation Pokemon that could be playable. All of my 7th generation inputs have been Poke Ball Pokemon. Ash-Greninja being Greninja's Final Smash would at least give Greninja some extra attention, as it is the only Pokemon known to have the Battle Bond ability, and it also plays a major role in the Pokemon XY&Z TV series.

As for your input on Ganon, Ganondorf does change into Beast Ganon for his Final Smash. However, it is treated as an offensive attack, instead of an actual transformation. To resolve that issue, Ganondorf's Final Smash could always be altered so that Ganon is an actual Final Smash transformation, but having to choose which incarnation of Ganon does come down to which Ganondorf incarnation is used.

Shantae is mainly a random input. It was either her, Shovel Knight, or some other Indie character. Truthfully, I've never played any of the Indie games that are available at the eShop, so I can't really say much else.

On one final note, if Final Fantasy VII does manage to be released on a Nintendo console, then I will consider bringing back Cloud. Until then, the future, uncertain it is.

But again this is all just a wishlist, so it's not like I'm actually predicting the roster for the next game.
 
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If you need any more answers, there are a few things that I can bring up.

In regards to Pokemon, I can't think of a single 7th generation Pokemon that could be playable. All of my 7th generation inputs have been Poke Ball Pokemon. Ash-Greninja being Greninja's Final Smash would at least give Greninja some extra attention, as it is the only Pokemon known to have the Battle Bond ability, and it also plays a major role in the Pokemon XY&Z TV series.

As for your input on Ganon, Ganondorf does change into Beast Ganon for his Final Smash. However, it is treated as an offensive attack, instead of an actual transformation. To resolve that issue, Ganondorf's Final Smash could always be altered so that Ganon is an actual Final Smash transformation, but having to choose which incarnation of Ganon does come down to which Ganondorf incarnation is used.

Shantae is mainly a random input. It was either her, Shovel Knight, or some other Indie character. Truthfully, I've never played any of the Indie games that are available at the eShop, so I can't really say much else.

On one final note, if Final Fantasy VII does manage to be released on a Nintendo console, then I will consider bringing back Cloud. Until then, the future, uncertain it is.

But again this is all just a wishlist, so it's not like I'm actually predicting the roster for the next game.
To note, the Triforce played little role in TP compared to other games. That's why Beast Ganon isn't his proper Moblin form(many do forget that Ganon is an actual Moblin, not some special other thing. This is also why it's called Beast Ganon and not Ganon. Of course, it comes from the same source, but Beast Ganon is not a literal Moblin either. Moblins also have been either pig men or bulldog men in the past. What makes this tidbit notable is that it's just another species. Ganon being pig-like is only because that's how Moblins became like that. Beast Ganon just encompasses this factor, and is in fact just a nod to how Link became an animal as well. Please note that Beast Ganon is more treated like his Twilight transformation, while Moblin Ganon is his Sacred Realm/Dark World transformation. Puppet Ganon(who only comes from Toon Ganondorf, notably) appears to be an actual magical form that Ganondorf likely created due to having years upon years of time to harness his powers and create it). Obviously the point is Beast Ganon is nothing like Moblin Ganon and should be treated like entirely separate things.

In addition, Twilight Princess Ganondorf never once turned into a Moblin at all. I know Bokoblins and Bulbins are in it, but I can't remember a single Moblin in the entire game. This is very notable due to the timeline split. They probably don't exist anymore(beyond Ganondorf's proper dark world form). For Toon Ganondorf, we do at least see Moblins in that game, and Puppet Ganon definitely resembles them. His other two puppet forms are obvious references to old bosses(Gohma and Moldorm that he had control of at one point or another). The thing is, with Moblins gone in TP, having regular Ganon as playable actually would make him a different race and entirely unrelated to this particular Ganon. Especially considering that Toon Link and Link are entirely different people as well. Note that this is based upon TP Link in general, and he has his opponent. Zelda obviously is TP design too, but Sheik was a scrapped design for TP, meaning she is still more or less just a regular OOT representation at best. When she becomes split in Smash 4, you could even argue that she's full about OOT only and no longer related to TP.

This is part of why Moblin Ganon makes a good addition. He is clearly not in the game, and provides proper weapons for the overall main villain. TP Ganondorf uses his sword barely in his own game, but he also barely fought. He had one cool battle, a full battle as his Beast form, but other than that, he wasn't just about the sword. This is part of why, imo, I think him barely using it in Smash makes perfect sense. His entire characterization was that of a leader of darkness, manipulating from the sideline, and will completely decimate an opponent with his brute strength. He has a chokehold in that game too. They clearly emphasize how powerful he is even without magic usage. I can agree with having him use his sword for a few more moves, but he does represent the character well. Getting back to Ganon, people recognize the creature as his Moblin form, his most iconic appearance overall. This is why they would like to see it playable. It's also the first form of Ganon(dorf) to use a weapon, which is a Trident and Two Swords. The complaints about Ganondorf not having a sword in OOT is obviously unfounded too as he never once used a sword in his human form, but magical spells and brute strength instead. Ganon was the real weapon user. It's just his tech demo version had a sword, the same tech demo model used to make Melee's version. Thus, many misunderstood why he never fully used a sword. He wouldn't even have one in TP if it wasn't for a fairly specific cutscene. It wasn't "his" to begin with. WW is different, respectively. He has his own gerudo blades and most notably, was super agile like the rest of his race and trained hard among those years to try and defeat Link. But Ganon always used a weapon bar his first original appearance. He has been depicted mostly as a repeat of his ALttP abilities. He's the true weapon user among the 3 key characters(Ganondorf, Moblin Ganon, and Beast Ganon). It's obvious that since WW, though, that people think Ganondorf is somehow more attuned to weapons than magic and brute strength. This is clearly false, but nonetheless, that's what they believe. Even Tecmo got into this falsehood when they made Hyrule Warriors. As for Moblin Ganon, he males sense to represent Ganondorf's true form of Ganon, the iconic one, as well as having a proper weapon user(of the main 3 forms of the villain).

The other point to note is I think Impa is being overhyped when she is still not that important overall in the canon games. She finally got a decent role in SS, but she's still secondary to Moblin Ganon, and was also not treated too well by Sakurai overall, not having even a remote mention till Smash 4. For good reasons, Sakurai doesn't pay attention to the non-canon Zelda stuff very much. He already has perfectly set models to work with. Likewise, the games already give him enough to work with from the canon stuff, and he has no need to pay attention to stuff like Hyrule Warriors(which notably actually used Ganondorf's Smash moveset at times).

This is very important about Demise, the true main villain of the series. His hatred created Moblin Ganon. This is why it exists. I feel this alone should make Moblin Ganon the next choice, since he's the true villain of the series. Ganondorf mainly got in due to being lucky enough to be a clone. But many mistake him for the true main villain of the series, which is now Moblin Ganon due to how the timelines work. I like Impa as a choice, don't get me wrong, but feel her priority should be after the true main villain. Who is also vastly more important than her, and I think that should be very relevant when creating a roster.

Apologies for the long post, but it's very important to know why Moblin Ganon and Beast Ganon are nothing alike and why they aren't.
 

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Another note that should probably be kept in mind is that Beast Ganon is a quadrupedal entity. Most other Ganon incarnations are bipedal.
 

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Another note that should probably be kept in mind is that Beast Ganon is a quadrupedal entity. Most other Ganon incarnations are bipedal.
Why do you think he's called Beast Ganon? ;)

But yeah, that's fairly notable since he was designed to face off with Wolf Link, Link's only non-bipedal form.

It's not a matter of "most", it's a matter of fact that with the exception of Puppet Ganon and HW's non-canon version(which takes design cues from multiple forms of Ganon, including Moblin ones and Beast Ganon itself), the others are actually all Moblins by design. Now, is it is arguable if they're real Moblins or Ganondorf's form was manipulated to match their design. One thing to keep in mind in the story is that when Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm, he corrupted it into the Dark World. He himself was became Ganon later on again there(the first time used the Triforce to turn into his massive Moblin form). What's notable is the Moblins, also according to the story, were corrupted Hylian Guards(in ALttP). Via Ganondorf's magic, mind you, but clearly their heart was tainted. So them matching his form makes a bit of sense.

However, later games have Moblins outside of the Dark World(WW), and Ganondorf doesn't turn into a Moblin in that. I think it might be a somewhat inconsistent story issue in this case. But yes, Beast Ganon is just a Twilight Realm form, and Ganon is a Dark World form, officially. Being Wolf Link could later change into that form even outside of the Twilight Realm(unless I'm remembering wrong), it can be assumed that it's more that being in the world the first time can have some serious affects on you, but you also can manipulate that effect later on without being in that type of world. This is implied that only the Triforce can let you control this.

If not obvious, the point is Beast Ganon should be treated as its own entity from Moblin Ganon. Puppet Ganon arguably is just Moblin Ganon manipulated by Ganondorf's immense magic to change shapes. It is not clear if it was not a true new form or just his old form with new tricks. As noted, Puppet Ganon's first form is blatantly his Moblin form as a puppet.
 

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If Lucina retains her popularity i think it could be likely to see her returning and even decloned, or maybe with some new attacks that represent her better.
How would you declone Lucina? Also what is so inherently bad about clones? They are clones for a reason. It's not just a matter of "Oh, the designers were just too lazy". It's actually faithful to the characters that they share moves with their counterparts.

Clones don't usually get a lot of their own moves unless they have some sort of character trait that qualifies it. Like Luigi's Green Missile kind of derived from Luigi's wacky personality and Lucas's moves were a result of the many different powers of PSI and his lack of a Yo-Yo.

But, if Lucas didn't share moves with Ness it would be rather strange. The point is to draw a parallel between the two characters and their similarities as well as their differences. Instead of just willfully pretending that these characters don't have anything in common.
 
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How would you declone Lucina? Also what is so inherently bad about clones? They are clones for a reason. It's not just a matter of "Oh, the designers were just too lazy". It's actually faithful to the characters that they share moves with their counterparts.

Clones don't usually get a lot of their own moves unless they have some sort of character trait that qualifies it. Like Luigi's Green Missile kind of derived from Luigi's wacky personality and Lucas's moves were a result of the many different powers of PSI and his lack of a Yo-Yo.

But, if Lucas didn't share moves with Ness it would be rather strange. The point is to draw a parallel between the two characters and their similarities as well as their differences. Instead of just willfully pretending that these characters don't have anything in common.
While I doubt Lucina would need to be completely decloned (the fact that she's an easier-to-learn version of Marth and Roy gives her some differences), there could be visual changes, such as basing her moves on the animations from Awakening, and maybe changing one of her B moves to differentiate her a bit (so that we don't have three nearly-identical versions of the same character).

For example, she had a bow and arrows in Code Name STEAM; while that might overlap with Link, it still would give her a projectile that Marth and Roy are sorely lacking.
 

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She won the ballot.

Why is that even a question?
That's why I said that. Part of me felt like the Smash Ballot was just a waste, and Bayonetta was rigged to be the winner, no matter what.

Of course, I'm probably just saying this because I don't like her.
 

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That's why I said that. Part of me felt like the Smash Ballot was just a waste, and Bayonetta was rigged to be the winner, no matter what.

Of course, I'm probably just saying this because I don't like her.
You are just saying that because you don't like her.

We have no evidence that the ballot was rigged.
 

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While I doubt Lucina would need to be completely decloned (the fact that she's an easier-to-learn version of Marth and Roy gives her some differences), there could be visual changes, such as basing her moves on the animations from Awakening, and maybe changing one of her B moves to differentiate her a bit (so that we don't have three nearly-identical versions of the same character).

For example, she had a bow and arrows in Code Name STEAM; while that might overlap with Link, it still would give her a projectile that Marth and Roy are sorely lacking.
That sounds very reasonable.

You are just saying that because you don't like her.

We have no evidence that the ballot was rigged.
Yeah, that's like Trump logic. I knew Bayonetta was requested, but I had no idea she would end up being top in the ballot. How does one rig the Smash ballot? If Sakurai was going to add Bayonetta no matter what, there wouldn't even be a ballot.

I still wanna know who the most requested first party character was out of the recognizable choices, though.
 
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It's fine to not like Bayonetta. But making conspiracy theories is silly. She wasn't the top most requested, but the top 5 most requested. Sakurai also cleared it up by saying she was the most feasible among the choices overall. He didn't explain anything beyond that.

I still wanna know who the most requested first party character was out of the recognizable choices, though.
KIng K. Rool is arguably that. Note his costume existing. If not that, Inklings or even possibly Wolf.

To explain a few things; K. Rool was not in any DKC game lately. It means he wasn't relevant. He was popular, so, the costume was an easy choice. Inklings may not have been feasible gameplay-wise for Sakurai or were created too late for him to properly add in. It could be both. That said, he did give them a costume too. Wolf's only two notable examples are that he was a last minute addition to Brawl, meaning he was fairly easy to cut if time came up. The other is that Star Fox Zero kept getting delayed, so he wasn't relevant at all even by the time the DLC hit. It's a coincidence SFZ did bad, but that alone can affect a character's chances sometimes. A game that wasn't well-received at all not getting a character is a basic business decision. To them, the game being poor can easily suggest the character wasn't much liked either. This isn't of course always the case, but for a business, you gotta look at what data you have at the time. It's hard to get good poll data when fan polls can be rigged or don't cover enough areas you want specifically want to work with. It makes more sense for them to conduct a poll themselves instead, since they want the feedback directly, as well as request it from what regions they specifically want to get information from. This can mean some regions are left out, but that's a company's decision. It's not a good one, but that's life.
 

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It's fine to not like Bayonetta. But making conspiracy theories is silly. She wasn't the top most requested, but the top 5 most requested. Sakurai also cleared it up by saying she was the most feasible among the choices overall. He didn't explain anything beyond that.


KIng K. Rool is arguably that. Note his costume existing. If not that, Inklings or even possibly Wolf.

To explain a few things; K. Rool was not in any DKC game lately. It means he wasn't relevant. He was popular, so, the costume was an easy choice. Inklings may not have been feasible gameplay-wise for Sakurai or were created too late for him to properly add in. It could be both. That said, he did give them a costume too. Wolf's only two notable examples are that he was a last minute addition to Brawl, meaning he was fairly easy to cut if time came up. The other is that Star Fox Zero kept getting delayed, so he wasn't relevant at all even by the time the DLC hit. It's a coincidence SFZ did bad, but that alone can affect a character's chances sometimes. A game that wasn't well-received at all not getting a character is a basic business decision. To them, the game being poor can easily suggest the character wasn't much liked either. This isn't of course always the case, but for a business, you gotta look at what data you have at the time. It's hard to get good poll data when fan polls can be rigged or don't cover enough areas you want specifically want to work with. It makes more sense for them to conduct a poll themselves instead, since they want the feedback directly, as well as request it from what regions they specifically want to get information from. This can mean some regions are left out, but that's a company's decision. It's not a good one, but that's life.
I couldn't agree more if I tried. I tried to tell people that Wolf was gonna get cut and the response to that was "But, there is no reason to cut him."

He's one of my favorite additions in Smash history, but what fans STILL don't understand is that characters don't get cut because they are not important, they get cut because they are lower priority. Mewtwo is an incredibly significant Pokemon character, but the reason he got cut is because other characters were higher priority. Not because there was something wrong with Mewtwo. If you could choose between Mewtwo or the new Lucario, you'd choose Lucario. And it's not always as simple as a character being "replaced". It's just that there is a priority list so there are SEVERAL characters that will come before Mewtwo. Not just Lucario.

As for King K. Rool, people try to argue that his lack of presence in recent games doesn't matter. But, it really does. Even if you think King K. Rool OVERALL is significant to the Donkey Kong Country series, it's never gonna matter if said character has just been obsolete as of late, at the very least it makes them incredibly low priority compared to all other newcomers who ARE still in business.

I believe that Dixie will always get in over King K. Rool if there is ever even another DKC character considered. She appears more often in notable games and is extremely important to the Kong family. She is VERY often seen alongside DK & Diddy in pretty much every recent game whereas King K. Rool even with his recent appearances, does not make very memorable comebacks.

Dixie appears in Tropical Freeze, appears more often alongside DK & Diddy in Mario spin off games. She can be seen with them in most intros or cut scenes of games like Donkey Konga or Diddy Kong Racing DS, and she even starred as the main character at one point.

She may not have as much of an impact on Smash fanboys, but she definitely has a bigger impact and significance in the Donkey Kong series as a whole and is given more attention by Nintendo.

Not to mention she's much easier to implement because she would most definitely be a Lucas-esque clone. Also I don't think characters that were created by Rare are of high priority, Diddy was only added in Brawl because of his IMMENSE attendance of Nintendo games and flooded requests. Sakurai prior to this had not even considered adding Diddy Kong and to this date he remains the only character in Smash that did not originate from a Japanese game company.

Dixie started as more of a cameo in games like Mario Baseball, but became more and more integrated into the Mario & Donkey Kong universe. I think she has a higher chance for that reason as well as the fact that she is reminiscent of Diddy Kong himself. So even Smashers who aren't too familiar with the Rare & Donkey Kong universe will feel her to be somewhat familiar. Fans old or new should instantly realize what her significance is.

Dixie would be very interesting. I would expect her to share Diddy's Neutral and Side Special. Using her Gumball Gun and possibly swinging her hair in her side special rather than latching on to opponents. Where as she would have her own completely unique moves such as her helicopter hair twirl for her Up Special and her guitar as her Final Smash.
 
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I couldn't agree more if I tried. I tried to tell people that Wolf was gonna get cut and the response to that was "But, there is no reason to cut him."

He's one of my favorite additions in Smash history, but what fans STILL don't understand is that characters don't get cut because they are not important, they get cut because they are lower priority. Mewtwo is an incredibly significant Pokemon character, but the reason he got cut is because other characters were higher priority. Not because there was something wrong with Mewtwo. If you could choose between Mewtwo or the new Lucario, you'd choose Lucario. And it's not always as simple as a character being "replaced". It's just that there is a priority list so there are SEVERAL characters that will come before Mewtwo. Not just Lucario.

As for King K. Rool, people try to argue that his lack of presence in recent games doesn't matter. But, it really does. Even if you think King K. Rool OVERALL is significant to the Donkey Kong Country series, it's never gonna matter if said character has just been obsolete as of late, at the very least it makes them incredibly low priority compared to all other newcomers who ARE still in business.

I believe that Dixie will always get in over King K. Rool if there is ever even another DKC character considered. She appears more often in notable games and is extremely important to the Kong family. She is VERY often seen alongside DK & Diddy in pretty much every recent game whereas King K. Rool even with his recent appearances, does not make very memorable comebacks.

Dixie appears in Tropical Freeze, appears more often alongside DK & Diddy in Mario spin off games. She can be seen with them in most intros or cut scenes of games like Donkey Konga or Diddy Kong Racing DS, and she even starred as the main character at one point.

She may not have as much of an impact on Smash fanboys, but she definitely has a bigger impact and significance in the Donkey Kong series as a whole and is given more attention by Nintendo.

Not to mention she's much easier to implement because she would most definitely be a Lucas-esque clone. Also I don't think characters that were created by Rare are of high priority, Diddy was only added in Brawl because of his IMMENSE attendance of Nintendo games and flooded requests. Sakurai prior to this had not even considered adding Diddy Kong and to this date he remains the only character in Smash that did not originate from a Japanese game company.

Dixie started as more of a cameo in games like Mario Baseball, but became more and more integrated into the Mario & Donkey Kong universe. I think she has a higher chance for that reason as well as the fact that she is reminiscent of Diddy Kong himself. So even Smashers who aren't too familiar with the Rare & Donkey Kong universe will feel her to be somewhat familiar. Fans old or new should instantly realize what her significance is.

Dixie would be very interesting. I would expect her to share Diddy's Neutral and Side Special. Using her Gumball Gun and possibly swinging her hair in her side special rather than latching on to opponents. Where as she would have her own completely unique moves such as her helicopter hair twirl for her Up Special and her guitar as her Final Smash.
One quick think about Dixie; After Sakurai couldn't get her working as a tag team with Diddy, it looks like he fully dropped her. I think he doesn't feel she needs to be on her own or something. it is strange she didn't get in. Albeit, if the name has K. Rool and not Dixie, then the relevancy argument would change. IMO, I prefer K. Rool cause I want more villain representation, but I love the character too. That said, Dixie does feel like the easiest choice, but I do wonder why she wasn't in 5 as a semi-clone or even a last minute clone. She would be more akin to Dr. Mario by having tons of similar moves, but still have unique ones due to a lack of a tail and different specials in some cases.
 

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One quick think about Dixie; After Sakurai couldn't get her working as a tag team with Diddy, it looks like he fully dropped her. I think he doesn't feel she needs to be on her own or something.
I don't see how that implies "she just ain't good enough to be on her own." He went a little overboard with his idea for Diddy and then decided it was too much. That says nothing about Sakurai's thoughts on Dixie Kong. He could have decided that Diddy should be represented as his own character and he didn't have the time or reason to do the same with Dixie.

Your assumption isn't really based on evidence. It's kind of like how people who thought that they had Sakurai all figured out and went "Look! Lucario is similar to Mewtwo! That means he replaced Mewtwo because Mewtwo is obsolete now." or when they went "Hey! Palutena and Dark Pit were in a game by Sakurai! Therefore Sakurai is biased and added them solely for that reason."

You're forming a conclusion that's based on nothing.

it is strange she didn't get in. Albeit, if the name has K. Rool and not Dixie, then the relevancy argument would change. IMO, I prefer K. Rool cause I want more villain representation, but I love the character too. That said, Dixie does feel like the easiest choice, but I do wonder why she wasn't in 5 as a semi-clone or even a last minute clone. She would be more akin to Dr. Mario by having tons of similar moves, but still have unique ones due to a lack of a tail and different specials in some cases.
I agree. But, when you have DK & Diddy, there's not a real necessity for any further Donkey Kong representation. You've got all the characters that are really the face of the entire series. If Donkey Kong was as big as Mario or Pokemon I could see the desire to expand the cast to its limit.
 
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I couldn't agree more if I tried. I tried to tell people that Wolf was gonna get cut and the response to that was "But, there is no reason to cut him."

He's one of my favorite additions in Smash history, but what fans STILL don't understand is that characters don't get cut because they are not important, they get cut because they are lower priority. Mewtwo is an incredibly significant Pokemon character, but the reason he got cut is because other characters were higher priority. Not because there was something wrong with Mewtwo. If you could choose between Mewtwo or the new Lucario, you'd choose Lucario. And it's not always as simple as a character being "replaced". It's just that there is a priority list so there are SEVERAL characters that will come before Mewtwo. Not just Lucario.
The "no reason to cut him" response comes from people spouting that a character will get cut because they're old or irrelevent or unpopular or just a clone (none of those things matter in the long run but people still spout it).

If you were around Pre Vanilla, you could see it everywhere.

:4falco::4myfriends::4jigglypuff::4lucario::4lucas::4rob::4sheik::4tlink: all got hit with it pretty hard.

I agree it isn't due to Sakurai magically not liking a character anymore (barring :pichumelee:) and all due to priority, but the response is still true.

No real reason to cut the character. Just bad timing and circumstances.

That said, :wolf:hype.

II agree. But, when you have DK & Diddy, there's not a real necessity for any further Donkey Kong representation. You've got all the characters that are really the face of the entire series. If Donkey Kong was as big as Mario or Pokemon I could see the desire to expand the cast to its limit.
DK is the 5th best selling franchise they have.

Only two seems a bit small.
 
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I don't see how that implies "she just ain't good enough to be on her own." He went a little overboard with his idea for Diddy and then decided it was too much. That says nothing about Sakurai's thoughts on Dixie Kong. He could have decided that Diddy should be represented as his own character and he didn't have the time or reason to do the same with Dixie.

Your assumption isn't really based on evidence. It's kind of like how people who thought that they had Sakurai all figured out and went "Look! Lucario is similar to Mewtwo! That means he replaced Mewtwo because Mewtwo is obsolete now." or when they went "Hey! Palutena and Dark Pit were in a game by Sakurai! Therefore Sakurai is biased and added them solely for that reason."

You're forming a conclusion that's based on nothing.
Keep in mind that none of the data files in Smash 4 have her among the choices. Likewise, the only viable leaker to have any information on planned characters has no mention of her. There's a lot of reasons to believe he wasn't interested. Could be a moveset thing(that her plan is no longer feasible so he became uninterested), could be he doesn't see any real potential in her in general(much like he doesn't see any in Toad). We don't know. We do know he gave up on her during Brawl and we have no evidence to suggest he tried to make her playable. Yes, it's an assumption. Won't deny that. But there's quite a bit of reasons for it. It's more of a hypothesis though. The fact that her being relevant was notable, but she didn't get in, yet he refuses to say anything is odd. The fact we got a costume of K. Rool and not her is odd too. A lot of factors make the situation strange in general. I'd like to hear his thoughts on her when it came to SSB4's development process. But yeah, I've been speaking solely in hypotheticals on why she didn't make it in 4. Never was implying otherwise.

I agree. But, when you have DK & Diddy, there's not a real necessity for any further Donkey Kong representation. You've got all the characters that are really the face of the entire series. If Donkey Kong was as big as Mario or Pokemon I could see the desire to expand the cast to its limit.
Swamp covered this well. It's a relevant franchise and one of the top ones. One more is fairly reasonable. Who is the question in itself. K. Rool? Dixie? Cranky? 3 most viable options and notable characters respectively.
 
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CardiganBoy

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How would you declone Lucina? Also what is so inherently bad about clones?
I don't have anything against clones, i actually quite like to play as Lucina as she is because with her little changes like no tipper sweetspot and such her play style differs and she is just fun to play.

In my post i mentioned that one of the possibilities would be giving her some attacks to represent her better, like the treatment Roy received while still sharing some of Marth's attacks, so not necessarily fully decloning her. Heck, one thing Lucina really needs is her idle animation from Awakening.

Also Lucina has traits to differentiate her from Marth, just like Lucas from Ness, and he's hardly a Ness clone to begin with.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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I don't have anything against clones, i actually quite like to play as Lucina as she is because with her little changes like no tipper sweetspot and such her play style differs and she is just fun to play.

In my post i mentioned that one of the possibilities would be giving her some attacks to represent her better, like the treatment Roy received while still sharing some of Marth's attacks, so not necessarily fully decloning her. Heck, one thing Lucina really needs is her idle animation from Awakening.

Also Lucina has traits to differentiate her from Marth, just like Lucas from Ness, and he's hardly a Ness clone to begin with.
I'm usually one to defend clones, but comparing her to Roy and Lucas is a disservice to those two.

Lucina's lack of tipper doesn't actually change her play style in any notable way. It just makes a slightly worse Marth because her attributes don't actually make a different play style. It's just Marth without his gimmick. It's why the Marth and Lucina boards were merged while even Melee clones have their own boards.

That said, I'd love for Lucina to be decloned a bit. If she reached, Roy/Ganon/Falco/Lucas levels, we'd be set for life.
 

TheLastJinjo

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DK is the 5th best selling franchise they have.

Only two seems a bit small.
I really don't think that matters. Characters aren't added because a series sells. A character is added because that specific character has earned the spot. I still say DK & Diddy is everyone we need. We don't intentionally need to go overboard because we feel obligated to.

I'm usually one to defend clones, but comparing her to Roy and Lucas is a disservice to those two.

Lucina's lack of tipper doesn't actually change her play style in any notable way. It just makes a slightly worse Marth because her attributes don't actually make a different play style. It's just Marth without his gimmick. It's why the Marth and Lucina boards were merged while even Melee clones have their own boards.

That said, I'd love for Lucina to be decloned a bit. If she reached, Roy/Ganon/Falco/Lucas levels, we'd be set for life.
If you think about it, Dark Pit is more unique than Lucina. Not in terms of attributes, but in presentation. It's his characteristics and personality that make him so different from Pit.

Also, I don't understand why Dark Pit couldn't have his own set of Orbitars. As long as his specials are different, I don't care about his smash attacks. If his smash attacks were different that really wouldn't make any sense being he is Pit's clone.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Also, I don't understand why Dark Pit couldn't have his own set of Orbitars. As long as his specials are different, I don't care about his smash attacks. If his smash attacks were different that really wouldn't make any sense being he is Pit's clone.
Dark Pit was very cloney cause Sakurai had absolutely zero time to make him more unique. This is the same reason why Lucina is super bareboned in differences. He had even less time for proper balance, and tested the clones solely by pitting them against their original counterpart.

Also, that's a huge misunderstanding of how a clone works in Smash. They share the same animations, pretty much. Was always that way. They can have all different Special moves but mostly the same normal moves. This is officially a type of clone and how Jigglypuff was made in Smash 64. It's not about "Specials" or "normals" it's really about animations, and the most accurate way to look at how much of a clone they are is how much of their literal moveset is unique. If almost all of it is the same(Taunts don't count unless they do damage, nor do idle stances and winning animations), they're a clone. If most of it is the same, they're still a clone. If about half, a semi-clone. If barely any, they're not really a clone.

That said, the point earlier was that Lucina and Dark Pit don't really have any extreme unique properties to them, they're just very slight modifications of the moveset overall, but as noted, he had little time to make the clones. Dr. Mario only has his spin because it could be reworked from Luigi's own spinning move.
 

TheLastJinjo

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Dark Pit was very cloney cause Sakurai had absolutely zero time to make him more unique
That's not entirely true. Once again you base this off of no evidence and made this conclusion all on your own. Dr. Mario, Lucina, and Dark Pit were all late added clones. There is nothing to suggest that the reason Dark Pit is so similar himself is because he was added at the last second. Dark Pit being so much more similar to Pit than Dr. Mario & Lucina are to their counterparts should be self explanatory. Dark Pit is the only one who is a literal clone who's physical attributes end at his color. Lucina had a different sword, is shorter, and was a different person entirely. Dr. Mario had a different attire that slowed him down and a profession that changed the types of attacks he uses.

If Dark Pit's attacks had different attributes there would be no basis as to why. If Dark Pit's tilts or smash attacks or aerial attacks had some kind of alternate affect, it would be unfounded and unfaithful. The only difference, I THINK is his side tilt which ever so SLIGHTLY has more knockback, but this change only exists likely for balancing reasons.

The only way you CAN make Dark Pit different is to give him different weapons from the classes of weaponry Pit uses.

This is the same reason why Lucina is super bareboned in differences. He had even less time for proper balance, and tested the clones solely by pitting them against their original counterpart.
What is your evidence that Dark Pit had less time than Lucina and Dr. Mario. Wasn't Dr. Mario that last clone that was made into a separate character?

Dr. Mario only has his spin because it could be reworked from Luigi's own spinning move.
Where did you hear that? Also how do you interpret a "last minute inclusion". Do you think these characters were made in a day? There's so much more work that has to go into them than you think. Aside from the differences in attributes, you have to implement taunts, victory poses, voice clips, etc.

The clones were made separate because the differences that were inevitable made it necessary that they be recorded as separate characters in the game modes and online. Characters like Dark Pit could not be portrayed with the taunts and victory highlights,tune that Pit had and Dr. Mario could not be properly portrayed if he shot fireballs. All you can infer is that Dark Pit was given all the differences Sakurai decided were necessary in order for Dark Pit to be properly represented in the game, otherwise he would have just been a costume like Alph.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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http://nintendoeverything.com/sakurai-on-the-clone-characters-in-smash-bros-wii-u3ds/ Here's one of many places that have the same article. I remember something about the clones being last-minute, but that must've been an error in my memory. Pun aside, it happens.

Yes, we know why they were made separate. What you don't seem to get, that they were also done that way with no major time to make them unique. http://nintendoeverything.com/sakur...one-characters-in-smash-bros-roster-approach/ This explains how they were tested. I slightly misremembered it, though. They were definitely tested against their counterparts, but maybe not balance that way the entire time.

Dark Pit had no time to be made unique. Of course, this article isn't as blunt about it as I am, but it's saying the exact same thing. I clearly don't need to cite the "why they were made different" bit since you have that covered.

http://nintendoeverything.com/sakurai-on-the-clone-characters-in-smash-bros-wii-u3ds/ As for Alph, he more or less treats him like a separate character, but doesn't explain exactly why. It's only theories about why he couldn't be de-cloned. Since we know they needed lots of time to make the clones even more unique, which they didn't have, it has to mean whatever plans he had for Alph were impossible with the time limit in place set up. This is why he even was treated heavily like a separate character via Sakurai's Miiverse columns. He might as "well be one", even if he isn't officially by the game itself, due to being an alternate costume. But his other point is that alternate costumes are meant to be basically separate people, just using the same moveset.

http://sourcegaming.info/2015/08/01/smash-clones/ This also notes it. Keep in mind that it cites the actual words Sakurai says. A good point it does bring up is that Olimar was hard to implement. This likely means that Alph wouldn't be easy at all, which the clones needed very little time, to the point that it won't cut it into any other projects. Melee's clones were a different situation altogether.
 

TheLastJinjo

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http://nintendoeverything.com/sakurai-on-the-clone-characters-in-smash-bros-wii-u3ds/ Here's one of many places that have the same article. I remember something about the clones being last-minute, but that must've been an error in my memory. Pun aside, it happens.
I'm not denying that clones are made very close to the end of development. I'm just saying it doesn't really say anything about the characters other than that the don't take long to develop.

Yes, we know why they were made separate. What you don't seem to get, that they were also done that way with no major time to make them unique. http://nintendoeverything.com/sakur...one-characters-in-smash-bros-roster-approach/ This explains how they were tested. I slightly misremembered it, though. They were definitely tested against their counterparts, but maybe not balance that way the entire time.
They don't have a lot of time to be made, because they don't NEED a lot of time to be made. It's not like if Pichu or Luigi were planned at the beginning of development they would have been entirely different characters. They are clones for a good reason.

Dark Pit had no time to be made unique. Of course, this article isn't as blunt about it as I am, but it's saying the exact same thing. I clearly don't need to cite the "why they were made different" bit since you have that covered.
Like I said, Dark Pit didn't have time to be made unique because he didn't need time to be made unique. Sakurai never implied that he would have made more changes to Dark Pit if he had more time. All he said was that it was necessary that they're development did NOT increase man hours. You make it sound that Sakurai wished he could have made more changes to Dark Pit. That claim is unfounded.

http://nintendoeverything.com/sakurai-on-the-clone-characters-in-smash-bros-wii-u3ds/
As for Alph, he more or less treats him like a separate character, but doesn't explain exactly why. It's only theories about why he couldn't be de-cloned. Since we know they needed lots of time to make the clones even more unique, which they didn't have, it has to mean whatever plans he had for Alph were impossible with the time limit in place set up. This is why he even was treated heavily like a separate character via Sakurai's Miiverse columns. He might as "well be one", even if he isn't officially by the game itself, due to being an alternate costume. But his other point is that alternate costumes are meant to be basically separate people, just using the same moveset.
You know, there's not really even one article that suggests that any clone in the series was a "last minute addition". These articles only suggest that clones did not take a lot of time to create and were merely added after the main roster was complete. Not that they were rushed.

As for Alph, we don't really know why he wasn't a separate character. It is most likely because he doesn't have anything that would have made him different. While Dark Pit had a different arsenal and personality, Alph didn't really have anything potentially new at his disposal. In my opinion, Sakurai could have added Olimar & Louie. Two characters with different physiques and the Pikmin could have been separated into two different characters. Olimar, the main character who uses the original Pikmin (Red, Yellow, and Blue). And Louie, the cadet who uses the special Pikmin (White, Purple, & Rock). Both would use Winged Pikmin and both could have alternate costumes: Alph for Olimar and Brittany for Louie. Creating A wide representation from Pikmin. Two characters from the first generation with differences, featuring alt costumes that represent the new generation.
 
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