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Early Smash 5 Fan-Made Rosters (Ideal or Prediction)

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N3ON

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I really don't think that matters. Characters aren't added because a series sells. A character is added because that specific character has earned the spot. I still say DK & Diddy is everyone we need. We don't intentionally need to go overboard because we feel obligated to.
With some characters, sure. Other times he designates a spot for a series before choosing the specific character, like with FE, Metroid and Pokemon.

And characters aren't directly added because of sales, but sales correlate to which series tend to be bigger or more prolific, and more characters are typically added from bigger or more prolific series. Like it's no coincidence that apart from the silly anomaly that is FE, the three series with the most characters are Nintendo's three biggest series.
 

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I'm not denying that clones are made very close to the end of development. I'm just saying it doesn't really say anything about the characters other than that the don't take long to develop.
When people say "close to the end of development", that pretty means last minute addition. But I was wrong about that bit, anyway, since we don't know when Lucina was started to be de-cloned. Assumably around when Robin was made is many people's guesses. And again, this is a theory, not a claim that it actually happened.

They don't have a lot of time to be made, because they don't NEED a lot of time to be made. It's not like if Pichu or Luigi were planned at the beginning of development they would have been entirely different characters. They are clones for a good reason.
Need is a poor term to use because you're assuming you understand Sakurai's philosophy on this "need" stuff. There's nothing to suggest he wouldn't make him more unique if he had the time either. We don't know, but we do know he puts a lot of effort into stuff if he has the time to do so, so many think it's likely he'd do more if he had the time.

Like I said, Dark Pit didn't have time to be made unique because he didn't need time to be made unique. Sakurai never implied that he would have made more changes to Dark Pit if he had more time. All he said was that it was necessary that they're development did NOT increase man hours. You make it sound that Sakurai wished he could have made more changes to Dark Pit. That claim is unfounded.
We know Sakurai well enough. He makes them more unique if he can because he always does that. It's part of his design philosophy. That's where I'm basing it upon, what he does. I think that if Dark Pit had more time, Sakurai would make him more unique. So yes, it has a basis for the theory. I don't think you understand exact claims VS theories, which is the problem here. Theories are not reality, they're thoughts.
You know, there's not really even one article that suggests that any clone in the series was a "last minute addition". These articles only suggest that clones did not take a lot of time to create and were merely added after the main roster was complete. Not that they were rushed.

As for Alph, we don't really know why he wasn't a separate character. It is most likely because he doesn't have anything that would have made him different. While Dark Pit had a different arsenal and personality, Alph didn't really have anything potentially new at his disposal. In my opinion, Sakurai could have added Olimar & Louie. Two characters with different physiques and the Pikmin could have been separated into two different characters. Olimar, the main character who uses the original Pikmin (Red, Yellow, and Blue). And Louie, the cadet who uses the special Pikmin (White, Purple, & Rock). Both would use Winged Pikmin and both could have alternate costumes: Alph for Olimar and Brittany for Louie. Creating A wide representation from Pikmin. Two characters from the first generation with differences, featuring alt costumes that represent the new generation.[/QUOTE]
You are aware I said the last minute addition part was a mistake? I outright admitted I remember it wrong. I'd appreciate it if you'd fully read everything far more carefully.

Alph did have potential. Rock Pikmin. The problem was whether it could be separated from Purple Pikmin or not, which, while possible, would clearly take a lot of time to properly balance. That's why the theory exists that Alph was too hard to make in the time given for clones. So, he stayed as an alt and was treating as his own character, just with no slot.

Something to keep in mind about Sakurai; alts and transformations are treated as separate characters by him. Slots do not equal characters. Slots are only there for characters with different movesets to inhabit. Only transformations ignored the slot point, and allowed two unique characters to share the same slots. It should go without saying that unique means having different moves(that is, moves that clearly affect another character you're facing).
 

TheLastJinjo

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Less of a Smash 5 Roster. Kind of a "more complete" Smash 4 roster. Kind of the same thing right? Kind of a balance between wishful and realistic....kind of. (Total of 75 Characters. 78 counting Mii Fighters)

Elaboration on my vision for Shadow:
  • Neutral Special: Homing Attack
  • Side Special: Chaos Spear
  • Down Special: Spin Dash
  • Up Special: Chaos Control (Teleport)
  • Final Smash: Super Shadow
  • Home Stage: Casino Night
  • Has many original moves of his own in place where Sonic's moves would not fit Shadow's character. Still shares some moves like Up Smash, Dash Attack, and Neutral Air.
Elaboration on vision for Louie:
  • Carries White, Purple, and Rock Pikmin
  • Rides Hocatate Ship (Olimar rides S.S. Dolphin)
  • Slightly slower with slightly bigger hitbox
  • More lethargic fighting style
  • Winged Pikmin carry him by his feet (upside down, seemingly as if against his will)
  • Victory Highlight of him being carried by two Purple Pikmin and one White Pikmin while asleep (like in Pikmin 2) and then he wakes up when they drop him on top of the white Pikmin.
  • Victory Highlight of him eaten Pikpik Carrots before being spotted.
  • Victory Highlight of him bored. (Like the opening cutscene of Pikmin 2)
Elaboration on vision for Dixie Kong
  • Neutral Special: Gumball Gun
  • Side Special: Monkey Flip (does not latch on to opponents. Only slaps them with ponytail)
  • Up Special: Helicopter Ponytail
  • Final Smash: Guitar
Elaboration on vision for Samurai Goroh

  • Neutral Special: Stingray Punch
  • Side Special: Katana Boost
  • Down Special: Stingray Kick
  • Up Special: Stingray Dive
  • Final Smash: Fire Stingray
  • Non special attacks are unique mixture of body strength and katana attacks.
New changes to veterans!!!
  • Orange & White Yoshi
  • Olimar retains only original Pikmin colors and has S.S. Dolphin (Still has Winged Pikmin)
  • Pichu has few moves that inflict self damage. Final Smash is rest and regains all health.
  • Sonic's side special is Light Speed Dash. Sonic characters lose rings when KO'd.
  • Cloud has American voice clips. Advent costumes are their own set.
  • Peach has her own victory theme (theme that plays when you rescue Princess Peach)
  • Dr. Mario has his own Final Smash & Victory Theme
New differences for alternate costumes!!! (purely cosmetic)
  • Alph & Brittany have S.S. Drake + Voice clips
  • Ms. Pac-Man has her own idle animation
  • Impa is a costume of Sheik and retains her Ocarina of Time design
  • Dry Bowser has blue fire and his own Giga form
  • Koopalings have corresponding colors for grab arm
Bonus: Stage Ideas!
  • Bowser's Castle
  • Dr. Mario
  • Luigi's Mansion 2 (Shapeshifts between mansions)
  • Mario V.S. Donkey Kong
  • Wario Land
  • Great Fox II (Star Fox Command)
  • Twilight River
  • Casino Night
 
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CardiganBoy

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I'm usually one to defend clones, but comparing her to Roy and Lucas is a disservice to those two.

Lucina's lack of tipper doesn't actually change her play style in any notable way. It just makes a slightly worse Marth because her attributes don't actually make a different play style. It's just Marth without his gimmick. It's why the Marth and Lucina boards were merged while even Melee clones have their own boards.

That said, I'd love for Lucina to be decloned a bit. If she reached, Roy/Ganon/Falco/Lucas levels, we'd be set for life.
Well the Lucas comparison was firstly brought by TheLastJinjo, i always like to consider Lucas not a clone, a similar case would be Wolf, sure their specials are similar to their counterparts, but there are several specials that can be considered similar on totally different characters too.

And yeah, probably is just my personal style of playing Lucina more aggressively than Marth, but maybe i've been playing them wrong all along (?) lol, that said i'm all for Lucina with more unique moves if she comes back, maybe not all the moves, but sword fighting styles can be very varied and they can also pull some animations from FE:A too.
 

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Swamp Sensei Swamp Sensei : I believe promoting Lucina to the status of Roy or Ganondorf would be the wrong thing to do. For one, Roy being a semi-clone is what makes him work when Marth & Lucina are already in the game and he has a reason to be so different from Marth. Two, just like Dark Pit is a clone of Pit & Dr. Mario is a clone of Mario, Lucina is a clone of Marth for a reason. It's not because she was lazily added or because there wasn't enough time. It's because she IS similar to Marth. Practically to the point where she is able to impersonate him. The parallel drawn between these two characters is much more faithful to the series and working her up to Lucas/Ganondorf status would be incredibly forced and unnecessary. There's not even enough potential for her to become that unique.

Anyway, what do you guys think of Shadow The Hedgehog being added? I believe this may very well be his closest chance to making it in to Super Smash Bros. Seeing as this roster is more likely to be about adding on to the current roster and adding characters people felt were missing, rather than making a completely new roster as if it were a sequel.

I think with Shadow's high requests and his similarity to Sonic, he is the best choice for a Sonic character. And I think in an updated port, it would not be too far fetched.
 
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Autumn ♫

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Swamp Sensei Swamp Sensei : I believe promoting Lucina to the status of Roy or Ganondorf would be the wrong thing to do. For one, Roy being a semi-clone is what makes him work when Marth & Lucina are already in the game and he has a reason to be so different from Marth. Two, just like Dark Pit is a clone of Pit & Dr. Mario is a clone of Mario, Lucina is a clone of Marth for a reason. It's not because she was lazily added or because there wasn't enough time. It's because she IS similar to Marth. Practically to the point where she is able to impersonate him. The parallel drawn between these two characters is much more faithful to the series and working her up to Falco/Ganondorf status would be incredibly forced and unnecessary.

There is no reason to be upset that Lucina is a clone of Marth.
Making someone who should and can easily become unique is the wrong thing to do? The only thing that Lucina really has that is similar to Marth is their appearance (kinda). Everywhere else, she is a completely unique and different character from Marth, if anything, she fights like Chrom (who doesn't fight like Marth). Her impersonating Marth is also kinda stretching it, she took his name to hide her own identity, but that's as far as her impersonation goes. She could have literally took anybody else's name and the story wouldn't have changed at all.
 

TheLastJinjo

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Making someone who should and can easily become unique is the wrong thing to do?
No. I believe someone who SHOULDN'T and CAN'T be easily made unique is the wrong thing to do. I believe it's a forced waste of time.

The only thing that Lucina really has that is similar to Marth is their appearance (kinda).
They are both sword wielders with very similar physiques.

Everywhere else, she is a completely unique and different character from Marth
How? What are her unique abilities?

if anything, she fights like Chrom (who doesn't fight like Marth).
The whole reason Chrom wasn't added was because he wasn't unique enough to differentiate from Marth & Ike. So Lucina was added instead because she was so similar to Marth, she was easy to make into a clone. She is a clone of Marth for a reason.

Her impersonating Marth is also kinda stretching it
That's exactly what she does and it shows how similar to Marth she really is.

she took his name to hide her own identity, but that's as far as her impersonation goes. She could have literally took anybody else's name and the story wouldn't have changed at all.
Why is that relevant?
 
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Swamp Sensei

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TheLastJinjo

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I believe you have some literature that shows that Lucina and Dark Pit were clones mainly due to time limitations.

Is that right?
No they were added because they only had a few differences and thus didn't require a lot of time to make. Sakurai makes that very clear. Sakurai never suggests that these characters were intended to be any more unique than they already were. He says that BECAUSE they are so similar, it made them easy to add.

It's not like they were originally planned, but became clones because of limitations. It's the other way around. Their limitations are why they were added. If Sakurai intended to make them unique, they never would have been intended to be costumes.

But, can we talk about something else? I know I brought it up, but I actually don't really wanna argue about clones. Let's just talk about character additions in general?

What is your opinion on Shadow, Swampasaur? Am I being too unrealistic?
 
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Swamp Sensei

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No they were added because they only had a few differences and thus didn't require a lot of time to make. Sakurai makes that very clear. Sakurai never suggests that these characters were intended to be any more unique than they already were. He says that BECAUSE they are so similar, it made them easy to add.

It's not like they were originally planned, but became clones because of limitations. It's the other way around. Their limitations are why they were added. If Sakurai intended to make them unique, they never would have been intended to be costumes.
You misunderstand me.

I'm not saying they were intended to be original characters ala :4bowserjr::4robinm::rosalina::4corrin::4palutena:. Lucina/Dark Pit/Doc weren't on the original document and were intended to be costumes after all.

I'm saying that the reason they are as cloney as they were was due to time limitations as opposed to Melee/Brawl clones who had much more time and could be given more unique attributes.

I'm saying if there was more time, Lucina might have had a different stat like faster fall speed or something. Not moveset overhauls.

Doc probably got more time due to Sakurai wanting to keep his Melee fans happy.
 
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TheLastJinjo

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You misunderstand me.

I'm not saying they were intended to be original characters ala :4bowserjr::4robinm::rosalina::4corrin:.

I'm saying that the reason they were so cloney as they were was due to time limitations as opposed to Melee clones who had much more time and could be given more unique attributes.

I'm saying if there was more time, Lucina might have had a different stat like faster fall speed or something. Not major changes.
Well, I agree that the clones should be at least as unique as the melee ones were. Not to the status of Brawl though. But like I said in my edited post, I don't really wanna argue about who should be clones.

What do you think about Shadow? S***! That's clone related. Well, despite Shadow having a homing attack and spin dash, I think he'd be unique. What do you think about Shadow's chances in an updated port of SSB4?
 
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What do you think about Shadow's chances in an updated port of SSB4?
Fairly certain we'd get Tails, Knuckles or even Eggman first.

Not only have they had more screen time as of late and have more legacy overall...

But Shadow is also an Assist Trophy in SSB4.
 
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TheLastJinjo

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Fairly certain we'd get Tails, Knuckles or even Eggman first.

Not only have they had more screen time as of late and have more legacy overall...

But Shadow is also an Assist Trophy in SSB4.
Well, I think Shadow would be more likely. If there is going to be a second Sonic character it should be a sidekick or a rival. Tails doesn't bring much interesting to the table and he's not as requested as Shadow. Eggman I just don't agree would ever have a chance. And I don't think Assist Trophies can't become characters. As DLC for Wii U it couldn't happen because you would have to remove content from the game. But with the port that would be acceptable.
 
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Autumn ♫

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No. I believe someone who SHOULDN'T and CAN'T be easily made unique is the wrong thing to do. I believe it's a forced waste of time.
And Lucina can be easily decloned.
They are both sword wielders with very similar physiques.
That goes into appearance.
How? What are her unique abilities?
Pretty much what Swamp said, having a completely different fighting style than Marth, along with the ability to use bows and lances.

The whole reason Chrom wasn't added was because he wasn't unique enough to differentiate from Marth & Ike. So Lucina was added instead because she was so similar to Marth, she was easy to make into a clone. She is a clone of Marth for a reason.
True, but Chrom can become pretty unique himself. He's just not near as unique as Robin is.

That's exactly what she does and it shows how similar to Marth she really is.
C&P
"she took his name to hide her own identity, but that's as far as her impersonation goes. She could have literally took anybody else's name and the story wouldn't have changed at all."
 

Swamp Sensei

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Tails doesn't bring much interesting to the table and he's not as requested as Shadow.
Tails brings plenty to the table. Most of the Sonic main cast can have completely unique movesets based on canon traits and attacks. Don't kid yourself that Tails can't bring stuff to the table, especially when you brought up Shadow using homing attack and spindash (he doesn't have to use either).

As for who's the more popular request, that honestly depends on who you're asking. For example, I'm fairly sure the hardcore Smash fanbase would prefer Knuckles (I mean, he made it, then Tails, then Eggman, then Shadow and then somewhere down the line, Amy.

And I don't think Assist Trophies can't become characters.
Potentially possible, but if its a port, I can't see them removing content.

Especially since Shadow was AT'd twice.
 
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TheLastJinjo

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And Lucina can be easily decloned.

Pretty much what Swamp said, having a completely different fighting style than Marth, along with the ability to use bows and lances.
I don't think she can easily be decloned.

Several Fire Emblem characters can use multiple weapons, but they are never usually incorporated into their move set. And other characters have bows in Smash.

Like I said, I think that it's unnecessary and that's my last comment on the topic.

Tails brings plenty to the table. Most of the Sonic main cast can have completely unique movesets based on canon traits and attacks. Don't kid yourself that Tails can't bring stuff to the table, especially when you brought up Shadow using homing attack and spindash (he doesn't have to use either).
Ugh..."He doesn't have to" is not an argument. Luigi doesn't HAVE to use Fireball or Super Jump. Lucas doesn't HAVE to use PK Fire. Shadow would most likely use homing attack and spin dash because that's literally what he does in the Sonic games.

From now on, I'm not going to comment on clones. It's a circular discussion.

I agree Tails can bring his own moves. I guess my personal opinion is just that most fans wouldn't find Tails to be an interesting addition. At least they wouldn't if it actually happened. As long as we have Sonic, I think Shadow can be the next character since he's pretty much based on him.

But, Tails is perfectly logical. I just think Shadow would be more faithful to the Smash fans. But, in a way that still makes sense.
*I'M SORRY. DOUBLE POSTED. :(
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Enough with the "Why wouldn't he?" and "Why would he?" circular argument. Don't ask it. Don't answer it. Just stop. The facts were given properly, and the conversation is going absolutely nowhere. If you want to respond to this message, take it straight to me via PM only. No exceptions. I will gladly erase posts that continue the argument, and if they continue, other measures may be taken depending upon the situation.

Sorry to force this, but it's gone on long enough and it's very clear what people's arguments are. There's no reason to continue it at this point when it doesn't even matter.
 
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Slightly related:

I still say it would be great if they had Lucina REALLY accentuate the use of Pair up and how important it is to her game (and Fates) by having her be a duo character with her own damn father.

Although I mean Duck Hunt Dog + the duck not ice climbers (one hitbox 2 characters)


Let's us get 2 popular characters at the same time instead of just one, gives unique moveset (bows and lances combined with the 2 fighter gimmick), and representing an important gameplay mechanic. Plus we would get Morgan as new Robin's final smash which would certainly make a few people happy :p

I mean it won't happen but man would it be cool.


As for Sonic characters Shadow certainly wins in popularity (in the west at least) while tails and eggman win in moveset potential and eggman seems pretty popular in Japan. If I had to take a guess i would give it to Tails just on the fact there would be little chance of them being "too similar" in some way.
:061:
 
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Impa could be a big player in the future I think.
 

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If not, she could definitely be a series of alternate skins for Sheik.
N O


I don't actually like the idea of skins outsides of special cases like the Koopalings.

I even dislike :4alph: being a costume and would rather have him be his own character, even if he's the cloniest clone who ever cloned.
 

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I don't actually like the idea of skins outsides of special cases like the Koopalings.

I even dislike :4alph: being a costume and would rather have him be his own character, even if he's the cloniest clone who ever cloned.
I want Alph to be seperate, but I'd rather Impa be a skin. I don't think she deserves her own spot, but that just my cynical opinin.
 

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Pikmin is one of the few series I think skins work. They all do actually play identically. Only the Pikmin themselves are unique. The Captains are basically at best palette swaps. They have unique personalities, which means they deserve their own taunts, any possible dialogue, but you need more than that to be your own character. You have to have different moves as is. I can't see him getting a second slot at this point until they get enough unique Pikmin to justify it. Rock pikmin are not unique enough from Purple Pikmin alone in the context of Smash. Winged Pikmin are required for recoveries since Tether Recoveries are gone(due to being extremely poor design, as they have too limited of range, as well as can't grip every surface ever made). When a lot of new Pikmin come out, or at least enough to make two unique sets, as long as they can be unique from each other, sweet. But there's no reasons to not have alternate skins as is. Having two full movesets filled with a set of different Captains pretty much let you play as all the protagonists pretty much the way they were intended as, identical. The real issue is that Pikmin's set of two characters was to help have strategic play in the games themselves. This is pretty much impossible to translate to Smash anyway. Trying to fully split two characters apart that act differently is really hard to balance. Look at IC's when they split apart. Quite a problem. It works with Rosalina and Luma because they aren't entirely separate enough as the same concept. You don't switch among them, you just do the same moves.
 
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TheLastJinjo

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Why not?

She's been appearing quite a lot in Zelda games as of late.
She's not on the level that Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are. She's not even in every game like Link, Zelda, and Ganon. She's usually just Zelda's assistant. I'm pretty sure her most significant role was Skyward Sword and Hyrule Warriors, but like I said, she's not even close to being as integral as the others.

I don't see what makes her a viable addition. She's only somewhat popular among Smash requests. Not so much among ordinary Nintendo fans.
 
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She's not on the level that Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are. She's not even in every game like Link, Zelda, and Ganon. She's usually just Zelda's assistant. I'm pretty sure her most significant role was Skyward Sword and Hyrule Warriors, but like I said, she's not even close to being as integral as the others.

I don't see what makes her a viable addition. She's only somewhat popular among Smash requests. Not so much among ordinary Nintendo fans.
More than you think.

Still, I feel that the next Zelda character in line is her and I feel a Zelda newcomer will come soon.
 

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She's not on the level that Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are. She's not even in every game like Link, Zelda, and Ganon. She's usually just Zelda's assistant. I'm pretty sure her most significant role was Skyward Sword and Hyrule Warriors, but like I said, she's not even close to being as integral as the others.

I don't see what makes her a viable addition. She's only somewhat popular among Smash requests. Not so much among Nintendo fans.
She was also significant in OOT, and a major part of Zelda 1 and 2's backstories. She also does kick off the plot and an important NPC in the Oracle games.

Ganon is not in every Zelda game either nor is Zelda. Link is the only character to be in every game, including spin-offs, and the CD-i games. Those 3 are just the most constant-used characters. Ganondorf shows up the least, to be fair.

Also, only in OOT is Impa similar to Sheik at best. Every other game gives are unique appearance and small moves to draw from unrelated to her. She makes no sense as a skin at this point. I can understand now wanting her playable, but that's the only logical option now. Playable or not. The thing about skins is they need to be logically related to the character and have the potential for the same moveset while being either incapable or unfeasible to have their own moveset. The Koopalings would need 7 unique movesets. That's no good. But they all can easily use the Koopa Clown Car. Problem solved. I explained the Pikmin point above. And the other alts are all logical due to being the same character, just gender-swapped.
 
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TheLastJinjo

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She was also significant in OOT, and a major part of Zelda 1 and 2's backstories.
Zelda timelines doesn't sound like a basis for adding characters. Otherwise Link's Grandma should be playable because she gave birth to Link. If it weren't for her, there'd be no Link.

She also does kick off the plot and an important NPC in the Oracle games.
That's not very impressive. I mean being important in the Oracle Games doesn't sound like something you'd put on a Zelda newcomer's resume.

And as for her role of Ocarina of Time, what's your point? Are you saying that as long as I can find one reason why a character is significant to a game, then they are a viable choice for Smash?

Ganon is not in every Zelda game either nor is Zelda.Link is the only character to be in every game, including spin-offs, and the CD-i games. Those 3 are just the most constant-used characters. Ganondorf shows up the least, to be fair.
That's my point. They appear in pretty much almost every game. Also Ganon and Ganondorf are the same person. I mean, that's why his name is GANONdorf.

Also, only in OOT is Impa similar to Sheik at best. Every other game gives are unique appearance and small moves to draw from unrelated to her.
I'm not arguing about clones.

She makes no sense as a skin at this point.
She makes perfect sense as a skin. If there was any form of Impa chosen, it would be the OOT one. I think Impa is just important enough to the point where she could be satisfactorily represented in that form. I think it's perfect for her.

I can understand now wanting her playable, but that's the only logical option now. Playable or not.
I find that to be Illogical.


The thing about skins is they need to be logically related to the character and have the potential for the same moveset while being either incapable or unfeasible to have their own moveset.
Exactly. That's exactly she would perfect for Sheik. It sounds like you're agreeing with me.
 
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She makes perfect sense as a skin. If there was any form of Impa chosen, it would be the OOT one. I
Why not the Skyward Sword version? The one that most people remember? It's Impa's starring role.
Exactly. That's exactly she would perfect for Sheik. It sounds like you're agreeing with me.
Impa is capable of having her own moveset easily.

Plus she can't physically do things Sheik does in either her OoT or Skyward Sword versions.

OoT is way too bulky and tall. SS is skinny enough but is even taller.
 

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Zelda timelines doesn't sound like a basis for adding characters. Otherwise Link's Grandma should be playable because she gave birth to Link. If it weren't for her, there'd be no Link.
What the heck? Don't use purposely poor arguments. You know that makes no sense. Link's Grandma has no real significance to multiple plots and at best helps out one plot, if any.

That's not very impressive. I mean being important in the Oracle Games doesn't sound like something you'd put on a Zelda newcomer's resume.
Yeah, it kind of is. Having plot significance is also important to choosing characters. If they aren't important to the games, they don't often get chosen. It's not the only factor, but is definitely a factor.

And as for her role of Ocarina of Time, what's your point? Are you saying that as long as I can find one reason why a character is significant to a game, then they are a viable choice for Smash?
Yep. The criteria is severely subjective, so it's a matter of what the person thinks. Sakurai isn't the only one to give suggestions for characters. Miyamoto was the first one to suggest Pac-Man, and Sakurai's issue was a lack of a moveset. This isn't something that applies for Impa given. her vast history of move capabilities.

That's my point. They appear in pretty much almost every game. Also Ganon and Ganondorf are the same person. I mean, that's why his name is GANONdorf.
Irrelevant to the point. Two versions of the same character can get in. The point is Ganon and Ganondorf are separate forms and that makes him notable overall on his own merits. You know who's also the same person? Link and Young Link in Melee. It doesn't matter.

I'm not arguing about clones.
You're trying to turn a character who has their own unique properties into a skin. I'm clearing up why Impa makes no sense as a skin compared to characters who all properly play identically. Bar OOT Impa, the only legitimate one that is similar to Sheik in any way. And that's not a good reason anymore. Especially since Sheik is clearly now a TP-based design.

She makes perfect sense as a skin. If there was any form of Impa chosen, it would be the OOT one. I think Impa is just important enough to the point where she could be satisfactorily represented in that form. I think it's perfect for her.
Skins are barely satisfactory for many. And that's not even a popular form of her at this point. SS and HW are her only really popular forms. Only form I like is Oracles versions, but that's just me and a few others at best. Being she didn't get a mention or trophy in Melee or Brawl when her OOT form was relevant at all, it's not even important much to Sakurai either. She didn't get any relevance till SS to any remote degree, enough to finally get some trophies. This is why she has yet to be playable. She's not severely important. Yet.

I find that to be Illogical.
I worded that poorly. Her only relevant designs that anybody heavily cares about to a large degree are two versions, SS and HW. Neither share a body type with Sheik at all and she attacks entirely differently in both games, as well as has other unique abilities. She doesn't make any remote sense as a skin and the only way she could've is if she was never in a game but OOT. She's not in TP either, nor has a TP-based design. Do not forget that Sheik is now a TP-designed character. She has to match proportions exactly to have a remote chance as a skin. Which she doesn't. And a skin is rarely done unless the characters have a remote chance of sharing the same abilities. Which isn't the case here. They have nothing in common at this point.

Exactly. That's exactly she would perfect for Sheik. It sounds like you're agreeing with me.
Being her two most notable designs have their own abilities? No, she is entirely feasible for having a unique moveset. I don't even like her SS version. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken into note when making a good moveset. She's treated as a magic user/huge sword user now. We haven't even seen her fight like a ninja in any game. It's not her style. She doesn't match up with Sheik at all. She shared a similar body in OOT, yes, but the only two things they shared in common was a Deku Nut teleport(literally one move), and a musical instrument to teach Link something(Sheik does not use a Harp as an actual move in any Smash nor has ever there been an attempt. Not even a neat Final Smash choice. Nope, that's just another of Zelda's moves, but being Zelda and Sheik are the same person...).
 

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Impa makes sense as a unique character and works as a skin, but why would you want her to just be a skin? It's not like she doesn't have enough potential or prevalence to be unique. Also if we got Impa it'd probably be the SS version until a newer feasible version comes along. That or Hyrule Warriors but as a spinoff it's not as likely. If she shows up in BotW in fighting form we'd probably get that or something close to it.

Plus, ofc she's not on the level of Link, Zelda, or Ganondorf, but it's time Zelda slips into it's b-tier anyway. Mario already has; Bowser Jr and Rosalina are not on the same level as Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser. Pokemon not exactly being a series with a static cast, Zelda is next in line.

Also ew Shadow. I'm sure I'd cut myself on his sharp edges. Tails or Knuckles plz.

Also also Lucina could be unique in the future but probably won't be. Or will only experience minimal differentiation. If she shows up at all.
 
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We're not getting Impa unless she appears in at least BotW as a major character with potential for a unique fighting style. And even then, she is far from a guarantee.


We're not getting SS Impa. We're not getting HW Impa.
Their time has passed.
 

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We're not getting Impa unless she appears in at least BotW as a major character with potential for a unique fighting style. And even then, she is far from a guarantee.


We're not getting SS Impa. We're not getting HW Impa.
Their time has passed.
I personally agree there, but I find SS Impa and HW Impa a lot more likely than OoT Impa as a skin like what was suggested.
 
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I personally agree there, but I find SS Impa and HW Impa a lot more likely than OoT Impa as a skin like what was suggested.
I disagree on two counts.

1. SS Impa is too lanky and tall to be a skin of Sheik.
2. HW Impa is from a spin-off from a 3rd Party. One that is unlikely to actually have content in Smash.

Not saying OoT Impa is likely to be a skin of Sheik, but by default, she is the most likely since she is both from a canon title and fits the body type.
 

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I disagree on two counts.

1. SS Impa is too lanky and tall to be a skin of Sheik.
2. HW Impa is from a spin-off from a 3rd Party. One that is unlikely to actually have content in Smash.

Not saying OoT Impa is likely to be a skin of Sheik, but by default, she is the most likely since she is both from a canon title and fits the body type.
You misunderstand me.

I'm saying a SS or HW styled Impa as a character is more likely than OoT Impa as a skin for Sheik.
 
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You misunderstand me.

I'm saying a SS or HW styled Impa as a character is more likely than OoT Impa as a skin for Sheik.
Neither will happen, but yes, the former would be more likely than the latter.
 

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Neither will happen, but yes, the former would be more likely than the latter.
I hope she appears in BotW, but I'm not sure she'll get a bigger role than she had in the first 2 Zelda games at this point. The game seems a lot less heavy on story and more as a 3D version of Zelda I to some degrees. At least, from what I understand. That said, if I'm wrong, do let me know(in spoilers of course, if only cause it's not entirely on-topic here and it's a game that's not out yet).

That said, I would rather she was a composite character, taking design cues from tons of games. Her alts can somewhat refrence her clothing from all kinds of titles, like her old lazy designs. As you're aware, the Oracle design is my favorite, mostly because a large woman has a lot of moveset potential, and they're rarely seen as playable, so it would also be neat for that reason alone. Not to say that it should be the only reason.
 

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I believe you have some literature that shows that Lucina and Dark Pit were clones mainly due to time limitations.

Is that right?


She has bows, she can change class, different fighting style with the sword, etc.
You want to check out this Famitsu Article, and this amazing article by @Frostwraith, Truth and Misconceptions.

Essentially, Lucina, Dark Pit and Dr. Mario were planned as alts (like Alph or the Koopalings), but were upgraded to a full character after Sakurai wanted to create a new slot for player record keeping purposes.
 

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Why not the Skyward Sword version? The one that most people remember? It's Impa's starring role.
I agree with using the Skyward Sword incarnation of Impa. However, when I made my roster wishlist, I was told that Ganon should have higher priority. The problem is, Ganondorf can transform into Ganon, but which Ganon incarnation to use comes down to which Ganondorf incarnation is used.
 

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I agree with using the Skyward Sword incarnation of Impa. However, when I made my roster wishlist, I was told that Ganon should have higher priority. The problem is, Ganondorf can transform into Ganon, but which Ganon incarnation to use comes down to which Ganondorf incarnation is used.
Just remember, that's not "Moblin" Ganon, which is the only one that was from multiple games. That's the original Ganon.

Beast Ganon is his own unique version that's just a transformation of the TP version. And of course, Puppet Ganon is a transformation of WW/Toon Ganondorf. Likewise, it's not properly treated as "Ganon" by name, but called Beast Ganon for a reason. Obviously they all come from the same source, the Triforce of Power and, well, the other one is a blatant spoiler at this point. The Triforce is kind of well known to help Ganondorf become Ganon. They do count as Ganon, but I wonder why they even bothered to call it Beast Ganon at all when outside of Puppet Ganon, all the rest are just pig-like forms in some way. Smash is weird sometimes.

Anyway, it's more like how Link, Toon Link, and Young Link are treated as unique characters. It'd just be the same for Ganondorf, Ganon, and Beast Ganon in this case. I'm aware of the fact that the comparison isn't all that perfect. Oddly enough, he doesn't have any proper trophies for his Moblin form at all. It's kind of strange that his original form is unmentioned in Smash at all despite being his most iconic version. But to be fair, Ganondorf did barely make it into Smash itself, so that could have something to do with it. Mind you, the fact his Moblin form is considered too irrelevant probably means he doesn't have a real chance of being his own character. But who knows. Impa's only real competition is Moblin Ganon and Tingle, legitimately speaking, but I think she has it now depending on how Breath of the Wild goes. On the other hand, maybe that might given Ganon his true due, but it also depends upon if he's a Moblin or more specifically his Beast form(or similar, like how his HW form is more of a Beast than a normal Moblin). Although the games don't make it clear, it is strange that he looks exactly like the Moblins of that particular game(just, you know, a king of them). Only notable exception is Puppet Ganon's non-bipedal forms, and the other two are blatant references to other Zelda monsters(also, TP has no Moblins).
 
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