Each Ganon's personal MU-ratio 2010 - (Finished)

[Z1GMA]

Moving on:

Vs

I have no experience Vs good diddys.
I'll sit this one out.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Moving on:

Vs

Zigma: N/a
Comment: I have no experience Vs good diddys.
I'll sit this one out.

Ray Kalm: 95:05
Comment: A properly utilized Banana should make this near impossible for Ganon. Diddy also survives Ganon's blow for quite a bit compared to other light weights.

 

[Vermanubis]

Zigma: N/a
Comment: I have no experience Vs good diddys.
I'll sit this one out.

Ray Kalm: 95:05
Comment: A properly utilized Banana should make this near impossible for Ganon. Diddy also survives Ganon's blow for quite a bit compared to other light weights.

Vermanubis: 75:25
Comment: Not at all good, but not horrible either. Even one banana on Diddy's end can put a quick 40% on Ganon. Not to mention this MU has to be played so differently than most. A lot of Ganon's moves are nonviable, due to the fact that he'll RARELY be doing any damage on the ground save for DAirs and dtilts (Gerudo not included). One banana might as well me a giant wall, and with his extremely high priority and multi-hit moves, he can pressure your shield a lot.

Like Kalm said, Diddy lives a while, too, as he can both get back onstage very reliably. But the main reason he never dies is because most of your moves become stale, since only a small handful are usable. Despite all this though, Ganon has that one nasty trick on Diddy that, if successful, can take a stock at 70% or below. Yes, I speak of the infamous banan glidetoss. If buffered correctly, an fsmash is guaranteed.

Basically, it's like Snake; it's a moment battle. When either side gains or loses momentum, they come to a screeching halt. Although Diddy gains momentum, with more benefits, than Ganon altogether.

 

[DLA]

Zigma: N/a
Comment: I have no experience Vs good diddys.
I'll sit this one out.

Ray Kalm: 05:95
Comment: A properly utilized Banana should make this near impossible for Ganon. Diddy also survives Ganon's blow for quite a bit compared to other light weights.

Vermanubis: 25:75
Comment: Not at all good, but not horrible either. Even one banana on Diddy's end can put a quick 40% on Ganon. Not to mention this MU has to be played so differently than most. A lot of Ganon's moves are nonviable, due to the fact that he'll RARELY be doing any damage on the ground save for DAirs and dtilts (Gerudo not included). One banana might as well me a giant wall, and with his extremely high priority and multi-hit moves, he can pressure your shield a lot.

Like Kalm said, Diddy lives a while, too, as he can both get back onstage very reliably. But the main reason he never dies is because most of your moves become stale, since only a small handful are usable. Despite all this though, Ganon has that one nasty trick on Diddy that, if successful, can take a stock at 70% or below. Yes, I speak of the infamous banan glidetoss. If buffered correctly, an fsmash is guaranteed.

Basically, it's like Snake; it's a moment battle. When either side gains or loses momentum, they come to a screeching halt. Although Diddy gains momentum, with more benefits, than Ganon altogether.

DLA: 20-80

Verm pretty much covered most of it, though I have a few more things to add. Diddy's pretty easy to gimp IMO, and he's not a huge threat offstage either. The biggest thing to watch out for is getting spiked by the jetpack; good Diddies will try to do this since you recover low and almost directly under the stage. Also, Ganon needs to watch out for what I call "banana vision." Meaning, once you have a banana, you focus too hard on getting a Gerudo in. Ganon only has 2 options while holding a banana: throw the banana, or use a B move (usually gerudo). In order to make this matchup work, Ganon needs to learn how to be a threat when throwing bananas, because he's one of the best characters at punishing trips. If you're good at the first option, then the second option (Gerudo) will come more easily, because your opponent has 2 options to be afraid of instead of 1. Then you can glide toss Fsmash.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Zigma: N/a
Comment: I have no experience Vs good diddys.
I'll sit this one out.

Ray Kalm: 05:95
Comment: A properly utilized Banana should make this near impossible for Ganon. Diddy also survives Ganon's blow for quite a bit compared to other light weights.

Vermanubis: 25:75
Comment: Not at all good, but not horrible either. Even one banana on Diddy's end can put a quick 40% on Ganon. Not to mention this MU has to be played so differently than most. A lot of Ganon's moves are nonviable, due to the fact that he'll RARELY be doing any damage on the ground save for DAirs and dtilts (Gerudo not included). One banana might as well me a giant wall, and with his extremely high priority and multi-hit moves, he can pressure your shield a lot.

Like Kalm said, Diddy lives a while, too, as he can both get back onstage very reliably. But the main reason he never dies is because most of your moves become stale, since only a small handful are usable. Despite all this though, Ganon has that one nasty trick on Diddy that, if successful, can take a stock at 70% or below. Yes, I speak of the infamous banan glidetoss. If buffered correctly, an fsmash is guaranteed.

Basically, it's like Snake; it's a moment battle. When either side gains or loses momentum, they come to a screeching halt. Although Diddy gains momentum, with more benefits, than Ganon altogether.

DLA: 20-80

Verm pretty much covered most of it, though I have a few more things to add. Diddy's pretty easy to gimp IMO, and he's not a huge threat offstage either. The biggest thing to watch out for is getting spiked by the jetpack; good Diddies will try to do this since you recover low and almost directly under the stage. Also, Ganon needs to watch out for what I call "banana vision." Meaning, once you have a banana, you focus too hard on getting a Gerudo in. Ganon only has 2 options while holding a banana: throw the banana, or use a B move (usually gerudo). In order to make this matchup work, Ganon needs to learn how to be a threat when throwing bananas, because he's one of the best characters at punishing trips. If you're good at the first option, then the second option (Gerudo) will come more easily, because your opponent has 2 options to be afraid of instead of 1. Then you can glide toss Fsmash.

Supreme Dirt: 0-100

We don't stand a chance. He's fast, and has bananas. If we grab the banana, we're limited to specials, throwing, and FSmash, which limits us completely.
Our only hope is controlling the bananas, which a good Diddy won't let us do. Completely unwinnable against a good Diddy.

 

[fonzi21]

Zigma: N/a
Comment: I have no experience Vs good diddys.
I'll sit this one out.

Ray Kalm: 05:95
Comment: A properly utilized Banana should make this near impossible for Ganon. Diddy also survives Ganon's blow for quite a bit compared to other light weights.

Vermanubis: 25:75
Comment: Not at all good, but not horrible either. Even one banana on Diddy's end can put a quick 40% on Ganon. Not to mention this MU has to be played so differently than most. A lot of Ganon's moves are nonviable, due to the fact that he'll RARELY be doing any damage on the ground save for DAirs and dtilts (Gerudo not included). One banana might as well me a giant wall, and with his extremely high priority and multi-hit moves, he can pressure your shield a lot.

Like Kalm said, Diddy lives a while, too, as he can both get back onstage very reliably. But the main reason he never dies is because most of your moves become stale, since only a small handful are usable. Despite all this though, Ganon has that one nasty trick on Diddy that, if successful, can take a stock at 70% or below. Yes, I speak of the infamous banan glidetoss. If buffered correctly, an fsmash is guaranteed.

Basically, it's like Snake; it's a moment battle. When either side gains or loses momentum, they come to a screeching halt. Although Diddy gains momentum, with more benefits, than Ganon altogether.

DLA: 20-80

Verm pretty much covered most of it, though I have a few more things to add. Diddy's pretty easy to gimp IMO, and he's not a huge threat offstage either. The biggest thing to watch out for is getting spiked by the jetpack; good Diddies will try to do this since you recover low and almost directly under the stage. Also, Ganon needs to watch out for what I call "banana vision." Meaning, once you have a banana, you focus too hard on getting a Gerudo in. Ganon only has 2 options while holding a banana: throw the banana, or use a B move (usually gerudo). In order to make this matchup work, Ganon needs to learn how to be a threat when throwing bananas, because he's one of the best characters at punishing trips. If you're good at the first option, then the second option (Gerudo) will come more easily, because your opponent has 2 options to be afraid of instead of 1. Then you can glide toss Fsmash.

Supreme Dirt: 0-100

We don't stand a chance. He's fast, and has bananas. If we grab the banana, we're limited to specials, throwing, and FSmash, which limits us completely.
Our only hope is controlling the bananas, which a good Diddy won't let us do. Completely unwinnable against a good Diddy.

Fonz: 45:55-maybe 40-60 (Yes I truly believe this ratio..I have played ADHD in a $5 MM and I took a game, but he is just a better player then me.)

Ok heres my input on the MU. I have learned a lot as well from those matches so don't follow everything you see in those old matches.

First off you have to understand this MU is one you absolutely have to keep your head in. Diddy is going to rack a LOT of damage quickly and it's going to be frustrating, but you have to keep playing defensively do NOT start playing aggro against Diddy.

Bananas:
Don't throw them at Diddy unless he is holding one himself. Ideal times to throw them are when he is throwing the one he has, or when he is off the map.
Wizkick flies over bananas on the ground and can catch Diddy off guard if they aren't paying attention.
Dair is your friend. Learn to Powershield Bananas as much as possible or Dair catch them.
When throwing Bananas back at Diddy kong you should have only two objectives on your mind. Stop his attack or What are you going to do to follow up after the Banana trips. The banana hitting diddy is not good damage and it's a waste if you don't follow it up. Look at the trip as after a Gerudo he has the same options. If you also use it to stop Diddy's rush it's good.

Map Control:
Stages to ban is Final Destination EVERY TIME. If you don't ban this stage good Diddy kong's will crush you. YOU NEED a stage to retreat to a platform when either A. your shield gets low or B. getting back on the map after being forced off. Norfair is a fine stage against Diddy Don't let AZ tell you differently. Thanks to Clai our ledge Planking ***** him and so does our Uair. Control the bottom platform and you win. I wouldn't recommend it as a counterpick because it gives Diddy kong to many options to recover. My favorite stage is Battlefield against Diddy.
In the middle of the stage if you grab Diddy throw him Up because Diddy is weak when we are underneath him and our Uair is ****. if on the sides throw him off for possible gimps.

You have to chase Diddy off the map for gimps. most likely they will try to Side B on to the ledge or whatever. Time your ledge grab to make him miss the ledge and fall and Uair him. also go for the tipmans they **** his recovery. Make sure you come down on top of him or he will catch you with the monkey flip and most likely gimp you.

Stopping Banana Assualts:
PS them then either A. jump and catch them B. Dair because you expect the Diddy to rush in (He will most likely throw the 2nd banana and go for a grab or Dash attack. Dair grabs the banana and hits Diddy.) C. Better Diddys will Fair you after they see you shield the first Banana if they don't have the 2nd in their Hand. Just roll away after PSing the first Banana or Wait and Shield the Fair then DA to pick up the Banana and possibly hit Diddy depending on their spacing. (This is risky sometimes so judge accordingly)
D. some Diddys might just stand there if the Banana doesn't hit. So if they do this grab the Banana after the PS and just wait for your opportunity.

Double Banana Setup:
Banana in front of Diddy, he has one in hand and is shooting peanuts. slowly move in wait for the first throw shield it then IDA, you pick up the grounded Banana and can hit Diddy. If he shields it quickly buffer a roll away or a shield.

What to do with Banana's:
Throw them up or to force them into certain areas. Use Ganon's Glidetoss its very good. Buffer Ftilts if they Trip or Gerudo or grabs if they shield. put them on platforms and use them as bait, our Bair and Uair **** so use them as punishers.

Edge Guarding:
Diddys Options for the most part:
Fair....Wall hop Banana or Bair....Wall hop Monkey flip...the rest is basics.
Dont contest the fair unless your not afraid to take a hit and are willing to risk the PS attempt for possible punishment. Ftilt WILL trade hits if spaced right.
Wall hop Banana or Bair. The bair shouldn't hit it's just a spacing move. The banana you MUST grab immediately and get it into your possession. Throw it up and resume the edge guard. The monkey flip is tough since he can grab or attack out of it and the attack has great priority. I suggest space a Bair or try to predict what he will do Shield the attack or Dodge the grab and try to punish.

When tripped I usually just do the regular get up. its fast.

Things to look out for:
Bair out of shield. it's quick and if they PS the Dair it can hit.
Diddy using Fair to pick up Banana's. It catches everyone off guard sometimes.
Instant tosses. If you don't know what this is go look it up. it's essential and you can abuse it too.
Avoid Spot Dodging at mid-high percents an early gimp or death because of bad DI can really hurt.
Dont PS the banana and not get out of the way. it will fall and trip you lol.

Recovering:
Banana's can knock you out of your jump be careful when recovering low.
Uair ***** anything Diddy will do to try and Gimp you.
Mix it up, don't always recover low.
AVOID air dodging on the map when he has a banana in his hand. he will just Glidetoss back to a smash attack.

ways to Kill:
Dair, Uair, and DA are your best bets. Go for the gimps. you must attack him off the map.

Your percentage of Death should be around the 180's because a lot of times Diddy will stale his smashes after a banana hit, with good DI you should live pretty high. Abuse this ability and make sure you kill Diddy before he gets above 120%. almost anything kills him at this percentage. Its not always going to happen but that's the Ideal death percent.

This is all I can think of currently. If I think of more I will add it, if it's wrong or you disagree feel free to post and I will discuss it with anyone. I think the MU is 55:45 Maybe 60:40 Diddy.

@itemfinder - you should never die to the Usmash. and really you won't hit Diddy with a lot of Usmashes either. Dair can kill at 100 fresh on like BF maybe 110 I havent checked it recently. just depends on DI.

Also yes we shouldn't get gimped by Diddy kong unless we make some kind of Error. peanuts aren't a threat off the map, and Naners shouldn't gimp you. Also don't be afraid to use your jump early to recover high, recovering high can be very beneficial because it can avoid being edge guarded, just mix up your DI so your landing isn't easily read.

Getting back on the map when Diddy has two banana's:
Most likely he will have one in his hand and one on the ground at about sweep distance (Just outside grab range from the ledge). and shoot peanuts or throw the banana's up forcing you to get on the map from the ground or jump and get hit by a banana. The place he puts the banana is obviously somewhere he doesn't want you to be....they will most likely try to cover the ground options with Banana's and cover the air with his aerials because they want the KO. Diddy's biggest issue is KO, and us recovering to the stage is one of his easiest ways to force a KO.

Its really difficult to explain how to get back on because every player is different and understanding their level of play and their mind games is usually decided when Im playing them. but I will take a wild stab and give you some of my thoughts.

If Diddy is throwing the Banana's up, (Both of them) then he is looking for the ground option meaning a smash attack. Jumping up into the banana doesn't seem safe either, but taking a 2% banana hit compared to a possible KO move then take the banana hit. Ledge hop to the banana try to Z grab it and retreat to the ledge again or see if you can get on the stage somehow. (This is why you need Platforms).
Most diddys will just leave one on the ground one in hand and shoot peanuts. if they do this time your ledge hop to a platform in between peanut shots. if he has a banana in hand it means he cant do an aerial until he gets rid of the banana.

Just understand if he has a banana in hand he has to throw it before doing an attack. peanuts don't do **** except piss you off, and the Banana's look scary but they can't kill you in the air, but Diddy can.

Sorry if it seems stupid but its hard to explain recovering on the map, because so many players edge guard differently. Don't be afraid to plank the Diddy a bit and frustrate him into messing up his traps. There is a difference between Planking and trying to recover. Don't force the recover.

@Sovereign - Im not sure how exactly even it is, but I do know Ganon can win this MU. Im not sure if I have ever beat Count Ganon Vs Diddy, but I think we have only played it a few times. and it was a long time ago. But I have never lost to him in tournament Lucario Vs. Diddy =P but we also havent played that in a while lol.

ALSO VERY IMPORTANT

Do not try to grab diddy kong after he does a falling Fair YOU CAN"T GRAB HIM.

As seen in this video at 1:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylX5FvOyVQo

Be careful about Dtilting. Diddy's grab is ****, and make sure you have good DI he can't kill us, and Diddy should die around 120% pretty commonly.

EDIT: Also I forgot to mention if Diddy DOES NOT have any banana's out (Which is rare) you need to be all up in his grill and in punish range if he even THINKS about pullinig one of those Mofo's out. Also Angle your F-smashes Down sometimes Shield pokes!

Here are some old *** video's of me Vs. AZ you can watch to get an Idea, but don't rely on everything that happens because obviously the Metagame has changed since then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shyqbz60aZw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVkeyGyMES4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylX5FvOyVQo

 

[Exalted]

tl;dr

Lol, just kiddin'

 

[DLA]

Lol **** I forgot to inb4Fonz. Cuz the only time he can be bothered to post here is when we talk about Diddy

JK, we appreciate the help. You're going to the Cincy tourney this weekend right?

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Zigma: N/a
Comment: I have no experience Vs good diddys.
I'll sit this one out.

Ray Kalm: 05:95
Comment: A properly utilized Banana should make this near impossible for Ganon. Diddy also survives Ganon's blow for quite a bit compared to other light weights.

Vermanubis: 25:75
Comment: Not at all good, but not horrible either. Even one banana on Diddy's end can put a quick 40% on Ganon. Not to mention this MU has to be played so differently than most. A lot of Ganon's moves are nonviable, due to the fact that he'll RARELY be doing any damage on the ground save for DAirs and dtilts (Gerudo not included). One banana might as well me a giant wall, and with his extremely high priority and multi-hit moves, he can pressure your shield a lot.

Like Kalm said, Diddy lives a while, too, as he can both get back onstage very reliably. But the main reason he never dies is because most of your moves become stale, since only a small handful are usable. Despite all this though, Ganon has that one nasty trick on Diddy that, if successful, can take a stock at 70% or below. Yes, I speak of the infamous banan glidetoss. If buffered correctly, an fsmash is guaranteed.

Basically, it's like Snake; it's a moment battle. When either side gains or loses momentum, they come to a screeching halt. Although Diddy gains momentum, with more benefits, than Ganon altogether.

DLA: 20-80

Verm pretty much covered most of it, though I have a few more things to add. Diddy's pretty easy to gimp IMO, and he's not a huge threat offstage either. The biggest thing to watch out for is getting spiked by the jetpack; good Diddies will try to do this since you recover low and almost directly under the stage. Also, Ganon needs to watch out for what I call "banana vision." Meaning, once you have a banana, you focus too hard on getting a Gerudo in. Ganon only has 2 options while holding a banana: throw the banana, or use a B move (usually gerudo). In order to make this matchup work, Ganon needs to learn how to be a threat when throwing bananas, because he's one of the best characters at punishing trips. If you're good at the first option, then the second option (Gerudo) will come more easily, because your opponent has 2 options to be afraid of instead of 1. Then you can glide toss Fsmash.

Supreme Dirt: 0-100

We don't stand a chance. He's fast, and has bananas. If we grab the banana, we're limited to specials, throwing, and FSmash, which limits us completely.
Our only hope is controlling the bananas, which a good Diddy won't let us do. Completely unwinnable against a good Diddy.

Terodactyl Yelnats: 35-65
Diddy is an easy character to play against, but it's hard learning the match-up specifics. Ganon has a lot of options once he has control of one or two bananas. Pressuring Diddy for the bananas takes mindgames and patience, I've fought great Diddy's and they get scared when you're dodging their bananas and taking them away.

Once you have a naner, hold on to it until Diddy throws his Banana. Then approach with your amazing glide toss > SideB > ftilt to proceed a gimp. It must be just me but this Match up comes naturally to me.

 

[fonzi21]

Lol **** I forgot to inb4Fonz. Cuz the only time he can be bothered to post here is when we talk about Diddy

JK, we appreciate the help. You're going to the Cincy tourney this weekend right?

hahaha no i only post when people ask for my opinion usually, and Zigma sent me the link. I could post on all the MU's but i dont unless players want my opinion, ask clai, he IM's me sometimes and I him when i want info.

and no I won't be there. fall will be tough for tourneys for me except like MLG's cause i play college soccer.

**DISCLAIMER** BTW GUYS!!!! the stale moves list is 9....NINE!!.. it takes 5 hits to stale a move completely out of 9 moves. Ganon is broken powerful if you aren't killing someone on the 5th-6th hit YOUR DOING IT WRONG. (sometimes 7 lolz)

 

[Supreme Dirt]

C'mon, fonz, opinions on everything.

 

[fonzi21]

C'mon, fonz, opinions on everything.

Lol, be more specific....I have a giant Notebook full of Ganon stuff. Like this video for instance I was going to do a whole write up on it, but i kept finding more out and it drug out through a serious time period...but certain characters can't tech when knocked off a platform when facing inwards..(it depends on the platform height too.) but they can't tech attack or do anything off the Battlefield one. So there we can setup a forced getup into stuff. I have tons of details on it, i just haven't posted anything. Percentage, DI, and weight of the character come into play on how you can punish them, but all in all you get a free follow up if you do it right, and it's quite simple once you get it down. Here is a small video that I played around with. Not sure if this is known or not, but I haven't seen anything about it. THIS DOES WORK ON METAKNIGHT!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PokpF6C4Rc

The following Characters cannot tech when their BACK is to the edge of the platform...The video isn't accurate on which ways they need to face it just shows how you setup the forced getup

metaknight
snake
donkey kong
link
fox
ZSS
Pikachu
diddy
shiek
pit
falco
Charizard
Ike
Squirtle
Ganon
wolf
King Dedede
Sonic
Bowser
Wario
Lucas

Platforms it works on, Battlefield. PS1, lylat (Depending on tilt), bottom platform on Castle siege 2nd transformation. Theres more but test it for yourself.

Like I said I have a giant Notebook full of Ganon's MU's, stupid tricks, and mindgames, and am more then happy to share if anyone wants to know and I feel like posting lol.

 

[Tonsana]

Fonzi reminds me of m2k...a robot.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I have a giant Notebook full of Ganon stuff

I would love to see this magical notebook at some point. I've been working on one of my own.

 

[Exalted]

Is the notebook's name "The Unholy Bible"?

 

[Z1GMA]

Mine's named NECRONOMICON, so that's taken!

 

[Bahamut777]

My computer's name is "The Unholy Compendium of Infinite Fel Knowledge"
His nickname is "Lu"

I don't want to comment Diddy.

 

[Exalted]

What in the name of Satan is "Fel"?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

We should probably 1) move this discussion to the Grimoire and 2) Move on to Falco.

 

[Exalted]

It's Ganon time!

 

[Z1GMA]

Moving on:

Vs

Z1GMA: 55 - 45
Comment: Ganon has a strong defense againt our laggy attacks.
But if we can bait him or make him approach, we can punish him like there's no tomorrow.

 

[thexsunrosered]

lol zig
funny man

 

[Z1GMA]

lol zig
funny man

I'm positive you've played a LOT of dittos, red8.
Give us your ratio, son.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Moving on:

Vs

Z1GMA: 55 - 45
Comment: Ganon has a strong defense againt our laggy attacks.
But if we can bait him or make him approach, we can punish him like there's no tomorrow.

Supreme Dirt: 10:90

We're slow, which is a pain. Very laggy as well. Ganondorf can easily punish everything we do. Not to mention he kills us at about 100% or so. This is a really, really bad matchup. If we hit with Up-B, he can UAir us. If we're recovering, watch the hell out, because he'll gimp you with a powerful second or so of cinematic hitlag. Not to mention he can gimp us off the top if we're somehow recovering up high.
Now, Ganon can't approach us. He has no approach whatsoever against our moveset. Use this to your advantage. Force him to approach and punish the hell out of him.
Bad, but not unwinnable.

 

[Bahamut777]

Z1GMA: 55 - 45
Comment: Ganon has a strong defense againt our laggy attacks.
But if we can bait him or make him approach, we can punish him like there's no tomorrow.

Supreme Dirt: 10:90

We're slow, which is a pain. Very laggy as well. Ganondorf can easily punish everything we do. Not to mention he kills us at about 100% or so. This is a really, really bad matchup. If we hit with Up-B, he can UAir us. If we're recovering, watch the hell out, because he'll gimp you with a powerful second or so of cinematic hitlag. Not to mention he can gimp us off the top if we're somehow recovering up high.
Now, Ganon can't approach us. He has no approach whatsoever against our moveset. Use this to your advantage. Force him to approach and punish the hell out of him.
Bad, but not unwinnable.

Bahamut: 100-100
When I play this, I usualy lose because I'm laughing way too much with crowd yells due to the most epic match possible within Brawl.
Seriously talking. I can't ratio a ditto. But we're Ganon. We'll lose. 45-55.

 

[Exalted]

Exalted: -
Comment: Time to fight fire with fire. Punish his Dair with your Dair, counter his Wizkick with your Wizkick, but most importantly, shield his grab!

Edit: Crap, forgot to quote above messages.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Z1GMA: 55 - 45
Comment: Ganon has a strong defense againt our laggy attacks.
But if we can bait him or make him approach, we can punish him like there's no tomorrow.

Supreme Dirt: 10:90

We're slow, which is a pain. Very laggy as well. Ganondorf can easily punish everything we do. Not to mention he kills us at about 100% or so. This is a really, really bad matchup. If we hit with Up-B, he can UAir us. If we're recovering, watch the hell out, because he'll gimp you with a powerful second or so of cinematic hitlag. Not to mention he can gimp us off the top if we're somehow recovering up high.
Now, Ganon can't approach us. He has no approach whatsoever against our moveset. Use this to your advantage. Force him to approach and punish the hell out of him.
Bad, but not unwinnable.

Bahamut: 100-100
When I play this, I usualy lose because I'm laughing way too much with crowd yells due to the most epic match possible within Brawl.
Seriously talking. I can't ratio a ditto. But we're Ganon. We'll lose. 45-55.[/QUOTE]

Exalted: -
Comment: Time to fight fire with fire. Punish his Dair with your Dair, counter his Wizkick with your Wizkick, but most importantly, shield his grab!

A2ZOMG: EPIC-WIN
I personally find the Ganon ditto to be one of the most fun and balanced matchups in the game. Ganon doesn't destroy himself in any one category except recovery. This is a matchup that can be successfully played either offensively or defensively for the most part, since regardless of the situation in this matchup, you have the tools to punish pretty much anything Ganondorf does. Reads and spot on edgeguards ultimately determine who wins the matchup. Baits and counter-baits are critical, but I don't believe that this a fundamentally defensive matchup.

 

[DLA]

Z1GMA: 55 - 45
Comment: Ganon has a strong defense againt our laggy attacks.
But if we can bait him or make him approach, we can punish him like there's no tomorrow.

Supreme Dirt: 10:90

We're slow, which is a pain. Very laggy as well. Ganondorf can easily punish everything we do. Not to mention he kills us at about 100% or so. This is a really, really bad matchup. If we hit with Up-B, he can UAir us. If we're recovering, watch the hell out, because he'll gimp you with a powerful second or so of cinematic hitlag. Not to mention he can gimp us off the top if we're somehow recovering up high.
Now, Ganon can't approach us. He has no approach whatsoever against our moveset. Use this to your advantage. Force him to approach and punish the hell out of him.
Bad, but not unwinnable.

Bahamut: 100-100
When I play this, I usualy lose because I'm laughing way too much with crowd yells due to the most epic match possible within Brawl.
Seriously talking. I can't ratio a ditto. But we're Ganon. We'll lose. 45-55.[/QUOTE]

Exalted: -
Comment: Time to fight fire with fire. Punish his Dair with your Dair, counter his Wizkick with your Wizkick, but most importantly, shield his grab!

A2ZOMG: EPIC-WIN
I personally find the Ganon ditto to be one of the most fun and balanced matchups in the game. Ganon doesn't destroy himself in any one category except recovery. This is a matchup that can be successfully played either offensively or defensively for the most part, since regardless of the situation in this matchup, you have the tools to punish pretty much anything Ganondorf does. Reads and spot on edgeguards ultimately determine who wins the matchup. Baits and counter-baits are critical, but I don't believe that this a fundamentally defensive matchup.

DLA: 0 - 0
Neither side can win. Every time you play a Ganon ditto, the universe explodes.

 

[Breezy]

Z1GMA: 55 - 45
Comment: Ganon has a strong defense againt our laggy attacks.
But if we can bait him or make him approach, we can punish him like there's no tomorrow.

Supreme Dirt: 10:90

We're slow, which is a pain. Very laggy as well. Ganondorf can easily punish everything we do. Not to mention he kills us at about 100% or so. This is a really, really bad matchup. If we hit with Up-B, he can UAir us. If we're recovering, watch the hell out, because he'll gimp you with a powerful second or so of cinematic hitlag. Not to mention he can gimp us off the top if we're somehow recovering up high.
Now, Ganon can't approach us. He has no approach whatsoever against our moveset. Use this to your advantage. Force him to approach and punish the hell out of him.
Bad, but not unwinnable.

Bahamut: 100-100
When I play this, I usualy lose because I'm laughing way too much with crowd yells due to the most epic match possible within Brawl.
Seriously talking. I can't ratio a ditto. But we're Ganon. We'll lose. 45-55.[/QUOTE]

Exalted: -
Comment: Time to fight fire with fire. Punish his Dair with your Dair, counter his Wizkick with your Wizkick, but most importantly, shield his grab!

A2ZOMG: EPIC-WIN
I personally find the Ganon ditto to be one of the most fun and balanced matchups in the game. Ganon doesn't destroy himself in any one category except recovery. This is a matchup that can be successfully played either offensively or defensively for the most part, since regardless of the situation in this matchup, you have the tools to punish pretty much anything Ganondorf does. Reads and spot on edgeguards ultimately determine who wins the matchup. Baits and counter-baits are critical, but I don't believe that this a fundamentally defensive matchup.

DLA: 0 - 0
Neither side can win. Every time you play a Ganon ditto, the universe explodes.

Breezy: 30-70
We're Ganon, we lose everything.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Z1GMA: 55 - 45
Comment: Ganon has a strong defense againt our laggy attacks.
But if we can bait him or make him approach, we can punish him like there's no tomorrow.

Supreme Dirt: 10:90

We're slow, which is a pain. Very laggy as well. Ganondorf can easily punish everything we do. Not to mention he kills us at about 100% or so. This is a really, really bad matchup. If we hit with Up-B, he can UAir us. If we're recovering, watch the hell out, because he'll gimp you with a powerful second or so of cinematic hitlag. Not to mention he can gimp us off the top if we're somehow recovering up high.
Now, Ganon can't approach us. He has no approach whatsoever against our moveset. Use this to your advantage. Force him to approach and punish the hell out of him.
Bad, but not unwinnable.

Bahamut: 100-100
When I play this, I usualy lose because I'm laughing way too much with crowd yells due to the most epic match possible within Brawl.
Seriously talking. I can't ratio a ditto. But we're Ganon. We'll lose. 45-55.[/QUOTE]

Exalted: -
Comment: Time to fight fire with fire. Punish his Dair with your Dair, counter his Wizkick with your Wizkick, but most importantly, shield his grab!

A2ZOMG: EPIC-WIN
I personally find the Ganon ditto to be one of the most fun and balanced matchups in the game. Ganon doesn't destroy himself in any one category except recovery. This is a matchup that can be successfully played either offensively or defensively for the most part, since regardless of the situation in this matchup, you have the tools to punish pretty much anything Ganondorf does. Reads and spot on edgeguards ultimately determine who wins the matchup. Baits and counter-baits are critical, but I don't believe that this a fundamentally defensive matchup.

DLA: 0 - 0
Neither side can win. Every time you play a Ganon ditto, the universe explodes.

Breezy: 30-70
We're Ganon, we lose everything.

Terodactyl Yelnats: Random
Ganon dittos are lol at choosing the better player.

 

[Tonsana]

Z1GMA: 55 - 45
Comment: Ganon has a strong defense againt our laggy attacks.
But if we can bait him or make him approach, we can punish him like there's no tomorrow.

Supreme Dirt: 10:90

We're slow, which is a pain. Very laggy as well. Ganondorf can easily punish everything we do. Not to mention he kills us at about 100% or so. This is a really, really bad matchup. If we hit with Up-B, he can UAir us. If we're recovering, watch the hell out, because he'll gimp you with a powerful second or so of cinematic hitlag. Not to mention he can gimp us off the top if we're somehow recovering up high.
Now, Ganon can't approach us. He has no approach whatsoever against our moveset. Use this to your advantage. Force him to approach and punish the hell out of him.
Bad, but not unwinnable.

Bahamut: 100-100
When I play this, I usualy lose because I'm laughing way too much with crowd yells due to the most epic match possible within Brawl.
Seriously talking. I can't ratio a ditto. But we're Ganon. We'll lose. 45-55.[/QUOTE]

Exalted: -
Comment: Time to fight fire with fire. Punish his Dair with your Dair, counter his Wizkick with your Wizkick, but most importantly, shield his grab!

A2ZOMG: EPIC-WIN
I personally find the Ganon ditto to be one of the most fun and balanced matchups in the game. Ganon doesn't destroy himself in any one category except recovery. This is a matchup that can be successfully played either offensively or defensively for the most part, since regardless of the situation in this matchup, you have the tools to punish pretty much anything Ganondorf does. Reads and spot on edgeguards ultimately determine who wins the matchup. Baits and counter-baits are critical, but I don't believe that this a fundamentally defensive matchup.

DLA: 0 - 0
Neither side can win. Every time you play a Ganon ditto, the universe explodes.

Breezy: 30-70
We're Ganon, we lose everything.

Terodactyl Yelnats: Random
Ganon dittos are lol at choosing the better player.

Tonsana: 40-60
Whoever gets the other player of the stage first wins. Bait laggy moves and punish. Space and mindgame his ***!

 

[Z1GMA]

Vs

Z1GMA: 25-75
Comment: Both characters have grab-shenanigans on the other.
However, Wario is more likely to grab you than vice versa.
Ganon is more dangerous when actually getting the grab, though.
We don't have any garantueed Gerudo Follow-ups on him except the Quake.
Wario can position himself for garantueed bites after like every other attack he lands upon us.
His aerial mobility makes it really hard to punish him.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Terodactyl Yelnats: Random
Ganon dittos are lol at choosing the better player.

Oh, no no no. Any ditto can choose the better player. Not being able to play dittos is just an excuse people make up for not being able to win. Ijosh for example, he utilizes Ganon's advantages and disadvantages very nicely in dittos.

Vs

Z1GMA: 25-75
Comment: Both characters have grab-shenanigans on the other.
However, Wario is more likely to grab you than vice versa.
Ganon is more dangerous when actually getting the grab, though.
We don't have any garantueed Gerudo Follow-ups on him except the Quake.
Wario can position himself for garantueed bites after like every other attack he lands upon us.
His aerial mobility makes it really hard to punish him.

Ray Kalm: 40:60
Comment: Full hop NAir can break many of his approaches (video example), Ganon should dodge and stall more often than be aggressive, it'll be very hard for Wario to hit us. While it is hard to grab him, it still is possible, and once we do, it'll usually result in heavy damage or a kill. Also, a grab at 0 % combos into a UAir > regrab > something else. I honestly don't find this match-up that bad at all. Ganon just has to play highly defensive in this MU.

 

[Bahamut777]

Vs

Z1GMA: 25-75
Comment: Both characters have grab-shenanigans on the other.
However, Wario is more likely to grab you than vice versa.
Ganon is more dangerous when actually getting the grab, though.
We don't have any garantueed Gerudo Follow-ups on him except the Quake.
Wario can position himself for garantueed bites after like every other attack he lands upon us.
His aerial mobility makes it really hard to punish him.

Ray Kalm: 40:60
Comment: Full hop NAir can break many of his approaches (video example), Ganon should dodge and stall more often than be aggressive, it'll be very hard for Wario to hit us. While it is hard to grab him, it still is possible, and once we do, it'll usually result in heavy damage or a kill. Also, a grab at 0 % combos into a UAir > regrab > something else. I honestly don't find this match-up that bad at all. Ganon just has to play highly defensive in this MU.

Bahamut: 35-65
Comment: Kalm summed up almost everything. The worst thing in this MU is the annoying DAir shield pokes -> UAirs. It's a pain in the *** and I think it's almost unavoidable if your shield isn't at maximum.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs

Z1GMA: 25-75
Comment: Both characters have grab-shenanigans on the other.
However, Wario is more likely to grab you than vice versa.
Ganon is more dangerous when actually getting the grab, though.
We don't have any garantueed Gerudo Follow-ups on him except the Quake.
Wario can position himself for garantueed bites after like every other attack he lands upon us.
His aerial mobility makes it really hard to punish him.

Ray Kalm: 40:60
Comment: Full hop NAir can break many of his approaches (video example), Ganon should dodge and stall more often than be aggressive, it'll be very hard for Wario to hit us. While it is hard to grab him, it still is possible, and once we do, it'll usually result in heavy damage or a kill. Also, a grab at 0 % combos into a UAir > regrab > something else. I honestly don't find this match-up that bad at all. Ganon just has to play highly defensive in this MU.

Bahamut: 35-65
Comment: Kalm summed up almost everything. The worst thing in this MU is the annoying DAir shield pokes -> UAirs. It's a pain in the *** and I think it's almost unavoidable if your shield isn't at maximum.

A2ZOMG: 40/60
This is entirely a winnable matchup for Ganon, and I wish I had replays of my offline attempts at this matchup. Ganondorf actually has the tools to wall the hell out of Wario, and there is almost nothing Wario can do that will significantly punish N-air or U-air walls. Hell, you can spam reverse U-air all day and Wario actually has trouble approaching past it since it beats ALL his approaches, air or ground. By already removing most of Wario's advantages in reliably getting in for free with clever vertical spacing, he has to work a lot in order to kill you, while you getting the kill is only a matter of him getting grabbed at 80%, which isn't as unrealistic as it sounds as Ganon actually stands a good chance of getting the lead in the matchup due to Wario's lack of ways to safely approach him. Furthermore a well-placed F-tilt at high percents can put Wario in a position where Ganon can gimp him easily due to Wario's bad vertical recovery options.

Honestly this matchup could be closer, except you get punished HARD for losing the lead, since approaching Wario on the other hand is anything but fun and easy. And his chaingrab, while not necessarily the most important factor in this matchup (by far much less important than your grab release kill on him), is still a threat that you can't ignore.

 

[DLA]

Vs

Z1GMA: 25-75
Comment: Both characters have grab-shenanigans on the other.
However, Wario is more likely to grab you than vice versa.
Ganon is more dangerous when actually getting the grab, though.
We don't have any garantueed Gerudo Follow-ups on him except the Quake.
Wario can position himself for garantueed bites after like every other attack he lands upon us.
His aerial mobility makes it really hard to punish him.

Ray Kalm: 40-60
Comment: Full hop NAir can break many of his approaches (video example), Ganon should dodge and stall more often than be aggressive, it'll be very hard for Wario to hit us. While it is hard to grab him, it still is possible, and once we do, it'll usually result in heavy damage or a kill. Also, a grab at 0 % combos into a UAir > regrab > something else. I honestly don't find this match-up that bad at all. Ganon just has to play highly defensive in this MU.

Bahamut: 35-65
Comment: Kalm summed up almost everything. The worst thing in this MU is the annoying DAir shield pokes -> UAirs. It's a pain in the *** and I think it's almost unavoidable if your shield isn't at maximum.

A2ZOMG: 40-60
This is entirely a winnable matchup for Ganon, and I wish I had replays of my offline attempts at this matchup. Ganondorf actually has the tools to wall the hell out of Wario, and there is almost nothing Wario can do that will significantly punish N-air or U-air walls. Hell, you can spam reverse U-air all day and Wario actually has trouble approaching past it since it beats ALL his approaches, air or ground. By already removing most of Wario's advantages in reliably getting in for free with clever vertical spacing, he has to work a lot in order to kill you, while you getting the kill is only a matter of him getting grabbed at 80%, which isn't as unrealistic as it sounds as Ganon actually stands a good chance of getting the lead in the matchup due to Wario's lack of ways to safely approach him. Furthermore a well-placed F-tilt at high percents can put Wario in a position where Ganon can gimp him easily due to Wario's bad vertical recovery options.

Honestly this matchup could be closer, except you get punished HARD for losing the lead, since approaching Wario on the other hand is anything but fun and easy. And his chaingrab, while not necessarily the most important factor in this matchup (by far much less important than your grab release kill on him), is still a threat that you can't ignore.

DLA: 20-80

TBH, it sounds to me like you guys just don't fight enough good Warios offline. If I'm not mistaken, Wario has the fastest horizontal air speed in the game. You really think good Warios can't punish whiffed Nairs or Uairs? It may require some good timing, but once Wario gets inside, Ganon gets destroyed. Bite wrecks Ganon in this matchup, since you're going to be depending on your shield so much in this matchup just to try to shield Wario's ******** multi-hit moves.

Also, I'm not sure why you guys are underestimating Wario's chaingrab. It's 0-90%, if I remember correctly. That's almost as ******** as Pika's CG on spacies. Ganon's grab release Fsmash only does 26-30%, and it's a hell of a lot harder for Ganon to land a grab.

The only things Ganon has going for him in this matchup is the grab release shenanigans, and the fact that Wario doesn't have anything that directly shuts down Ganon's game. Other than that, Wario completely dominates Ganon in every aspect of the matchup... including killing power. So yeah, this is a pretty ridiculously bad matchup for Ganon, but not among his worst.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

DLA: 20-80

TBH, it sounds to me like you guys just don't fight enough good Warios offline. If I'm not mistaken, Wario has the fastest horizontal air speed in the game. You really think good Warios can't punish whiffed Nairs or Uairs? It may require some good timing, but once Wario gets inside, Ganon gets destroyed. Bite wrecks Ganon in this matchup, since you're going to be depending on your shield so much in this matchup just to try to shield Wario's ******** multi-hit moves.

Also, I'm not sure why you guys are underestimating Wario's chaingrab. It's 0-90%, if I remember correctly. That's almost as ******** as Pika's CG on spacies. Ganon's grab release Fsmash only does 26-30%, and it's a hell of a lot harder for Ganon to land a grab.

The only things Ganon has going for him in this matchup is the grab release shenanigans, and the fact that Wario doesn't have anything that directly shuts down Ganon's game. Other than that, Wario completely dominates Ganon in every aspect of the matchup... including killing power. So yeah, this is a pretty ridiculously bad matchup for Ganon, but not among his worst.

To me it just seems like you're a bad player, or over judging Wario's capability. Try NAir retreating/approaching, or just REACTING according to Wario, and watch him being able to do little about it. Bike can get shielded. Wario's DAir matches our NAir.

Not much else to add here. This match-up is still in Wario's favor, just as how all Ganon's other matches are. But, it is one of our easier Mus.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Just asking:

Which Warios have you played DLA? And by the way Bite doesn't actually wreck anyone who doesn't jump into the ****. Yeah it will be really gay to someone like Falcon, Sonic, and I guess Ganon if they try too hard to approach Wario. The thing about Bite though is that he can't really approach with it since it has a lot of commitment and takes away his mobility.

And I do actually believe Ganon's U-air is capable of walling Wario's approach. Properly autocanceled, Ganon's U-air only has about 11 frames of ending lag. Considering the reverse U-air both outranges and flat out wins against pretty much every attack Wario has, I believe it is impractically hard for Wario to whiff punish. D-air and B-air at their best autocancel windows also have only about 13 or 12 frames of ending lag respectively and are not moves he wants to trade with.

I don't neccessarily think Kalm's video is the best example, but I do think Ganon's tools work very well against Wario regardless of how much he hates getting chaingrabbed in this matchup. And in theory, while it should be very hard for Ganon to land a grab on a Wario who is camping, I believe Ganon actually is more likely to get the percent lead in this matchup initially due to his damage per hit (as well as Wario's limited answers to walls), and the (irrational) fear of being timed out by percent lead is enough to make Wario play into Ganon's game, and be at significant risk of getting grabbed.

 

[DLA]

To me it just seems like you're a bad player, or over judging Wario's capability. Try NAir retreating/approaching, or just REACTING according to Wario, and watch him being able to do little about it. Bike can get shielded. Wario's DAir matches our NAir.

Not much else to add here. This match-up is still in Wario's favor, just as how all Ganon's other matches are. But, it is one of our easier Mus.

Nair is not a wall of invincibility. Wario has almost 2x our aerial movement speed--if we full hop Nair, he could literally DI away from us until the hitbox ends, then DI back into us and punish. It won't work of the Wario's afraid to do it though. I'm not saying that it's a bad option in this matchup-- it's one of Ganon's best options, but it still is very punishable.

Just asking:

Which Warios have you played DLA? And by the way Bite doesn't actually wreck anyone who doesn't jump into the ****. Yeah it will be really gay to someone like Falcon, Sonic, and I guess Ganon if they try too hard to approach Wario. The thing about Bite though is that he can't really approach with it since it has a lot of commitment and takes away his mobility.

And I do actually believe Ganon's U-air is capable of walling Wario's approach. Properly autocanceled, Ganon's U-air only has about 11 frames of ending lag. Considering the reverse U-air both outranges and flat out wins against pretty much every attack Wario has, I believe it is impractically hard for Wario to whiff punish. D-air and B-air at their best autocancel windows also have only about 13 or 12 frames of ending lag respectively and are not moves he wants to trade with.

I don't neccessarily think Kalm's video is the best example, but I do think Ganon's tools work very well against Wario regardless of how much he hates getting chaingrabbed in this matchup. And in theory, while it should be very hard for Ganon to land a grab on a Wario who is camping, I believe Ganon actually is more likely to get the percent lead in this matchup initially due to his damage per hit (as well as Wario's limited answers to walls), and the (irrational) fear of being timed out by percent lead is enough to make Wario play into Ganon's game, and be at significant risk of getting grabbed.

I see/fight Hunger at pretty much every tournament I go to. I also fight Quik a LOT(who doesn't travel OoS, but he's a fantastic player and almost as good as Hunger). Krystedez also lives one state away from me, though we only got to fight once.

IMO, you guys are failing to take Wario's aerial movement into account. That's why this matchup is so bad. All of these Nair/Uair shenanigans you guys are talking about would work against a good Wario if he moved at the same speed as everyone else. But since he is so fast, he can make punishes than other characters can only dream of. Nair/Uair may foil some of his approach attempts, but the notion that these moves completely shut down Wario's air game is ridiculous.

Also, no Wario is ever going to be afraid of getting timed out by a Ganon lol. Try stalling against a top Wario with Nair and see what happens.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Nair is not a wall of invincibility. Wario has almost 2x our aerial movement speed--if we full hop Nair, he could literally DI away from us until the hitbox ends, then DI back into us and punish. It won't work of the Wario's afraid to do it though. I'm not saying that it's a bad option in this matchup-- it's one of Ganon's best options, but it still is very punishable.

If Wario DIs away first, Ganon can also DI away to avoid the contact with his aerials.