Event - E3 Invitational 2014 E3 2014 speculation: Any more to come?

[The Light Music Club]

Can basically guarantee Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Snake are gone
Wolf, Lucas, and Jigglypuff are still on the edge as well

Honestly people need to stop saying that Lucas and Wolf are cut. Toon Link the worst clone of them all made it so why can't they?

And jiggs is so easy to develop it'd be dumb not to include her.

 

[xxMiles]

Honestly people need to stop saying that Lucas and Wolf are cut. Toon Link the worst clone of them all made it so why can't they?

And jiggs is so easy to develop it'd be dumb not to include her.

Lucas is a semi-clone. Toon Link has more value since he represents "child" Link in the series. Plus, he's the only competitively viable Zelda rep.

Personally, Star Fox was just fine with Falco and Fox. I didn't really use Wolf, tbh.

 

[Spazzy_D]

Honestly people need to stop saying that Lucas and Wolf are cut. Toon Link the worst clone of them all made it so why can't they?

And jiggs is so easy to develop it'd be dumb not to include her.

While I don't think it's likely that Lucas or Wolf will be cut, it could be argued that Toon Link made it in to advertise the Wind Waker Remaster. He is also an important part of a major Nintendo franchise, as opposed to Star Fox and especially Mother which are much more niche. He basically represents all of the games that include a younger Link, after all.

 

[samsparta21]

Lucas is a semi-clone. Toon Link has more value since he represents "child" Link in the series. Plus, he's the only competitively viable Zelda rep.

Personally, Star Fox was just fine with Falco and Fox. I didn't really use Wolf, tbh.

I think for cuts it would go like this
Wolf>Lucas>Snake>Squirtle>Ivysaur
With the last one being the most likely to be cut.

 

[The Light Music Club]

Lucas is a semi-clone. Toon Link has more value since he represents "child" Link in the series. Plus, he's the only competitively viable Zelda rep.

Personally, Star Fox was just fine with Falco and Fox. I didn't really use Wolf, tbh.

Than I guess you also think that Paper or Dr. Mario needs to be playable? Because those Marios represent their own part of the series as well. I mean Toon Link is another link which is redundant and unoriginal. It doesn't mattter if he represents the "child" Link in the series. He still is Link. Tingle and Skull Kid aren't Link and appear multiple times within the series. They make more sense.

And no, you can't say Starfox is fine with just Falco and Fox just because you didn't use Wolf. Wolf is the main rival to Starfox and he is the most occurring bad guy in the game that would make sense for smash. Wolf is a very important part of the Starfox franchise so it wouldn't make sense for him to be cut. He's more important to the series than Toon Link is to his. And don't bother saying they should cut Falco then. He's been in two games, and is very popular in the SSB series.

Lastly, Lucas is the main character of the newest game (possibly final) to the series that he is in. He is just as important, as Ness is to his series, and it would only make sense that their would be both. And whoever thinks that neither of them is in is just dumb. You can't have Mr. Saturn and not have a playable character from a series that has had a playable character since the N64 version.

If anyone is cut, we will probably find some of their data on the disc, or eventually hear that they were planned for the game. (Except for maybe Ivysaur and Squirtle. Possibly Snake).

 

[TheAnvil]

I understand, but cherry picking quotes is cherry picking quotes. Sakurai contradicts himself quite a bit, I was just saying we shouldn't cling to any one thing he said. Where is the exact quote concerning the number of newcomers, and when was it from?

"In terms of quantity, we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible". I'm sure if you google around it'll turn up.

But yeah you are right, he does contradict himself. I guess the translation of his quotes is partly to blame. I guess we'll see. Either way we've still seen no evidence that would suggest that Ivysquirtle are more likely to be cut than any other character.

 

[Spazzy_D]

"In terms of quantity, we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible". I'm sure if you google around it'll turn up.

But yeah you are right, he does contradict himself. I guess the translation of his quotes is partly to blame. I guess we'll see. Either way we've still seen no evidence that would suggest that Ivysquirtle are more likely to be cut than any other character.

Ah, gotcha... I am familiar with that quote but I wasn't sure if anything else was said that I missed. That's why I'm often upset when people deal with absolutes when it comes to quotes- there is usually room for interpretation.

The entire quote is:
"It isn't a matter of 'if the next game has 50 characters, that'll be enough.' There is a certain charm to games that have huge casts of playable characters, but they tend to have issues with game balance and it becomes very difficult to fine-tune each character and have them all feel distinctive. In terms of quantity, we've probably already reached the limit of what's feasible. I think a change of direction may be what's needed."

If we were to read that literally we would probably have to see a few cuts just to deal with the amount of new comers we've already seen. What I mostly took away from this is that the next game would require more than just a massive roster to be successful. It should also be noted that this was made in July of 2012, when production of the game had just begun. Since then, all we've heard is how smooth production has been going (especially compared to Brawl.) His not wanting to make cuts comment was actually made a full year later, and a lot can happen in that time. It is entirely possible (and complete conjecture on my part) that he could have planned out a decent batch of new comers with a healthy amount of cuts, but decided to reinstate characters due to how well development was going. It is also possible that we've seen all but two new comers. Like I said, it's all speculation at this point.

As for Ivysaur and Squirtle? I think it's odd we didn't see them at the same time we saw Charizard, and since I believe Jiggly Puff and Mewtwo will likely be back it would make for a roster with 8 playable Pokémon. Now, I don't believe that Pokémon can't have more spots than Mario or anything like that, but it does seem a bit extreme (to me anyway.)

You are right though, there is nothing explicitly pointing to their exclusion. It's the same with Lucas and Wolf (whom I think are probably in), really... people believe there will be cuts and are just trying to justify possible candidates for those cuts.

 

[Zzuxon]

Honestly people need to stop saying that Lucas and Wolf are cut. Toon Link the worst clone of them all made it so why can't they?

And jiggs is so easy to develop it'd be dumb not to include her.

The fact that Wolf and Lucas are or aren't clones is irrelevant.
Star Fox and Mother have too many characters. That is why they should be cut.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Check this out. The schedule for the Twitch broadcasts. http://kotaku.com/twitchs-e3-schedule-is-full-of-juicy-teasers-1584790308

Of particular note: Tuesday 1440, Wednesday 1410, Thursday 1200 and Thursday 1440... Unnanounced Nintendo titles. We're gonna get 4 new games that are worth taking up the Twitch broadcast. I hope there's more that don't get twitch time but I think I'm running out reasons to not stock up on Cafineergy Sauce

 

[The Light Music Club]

The fact that Wolf and Lucas are or aren't clones is irrelevant.
Star Fox and Mother have too many characters. That is why they should be cut.

Having to many characters might be your own opinion but the fact those series were given that many characters in the first place shows that Sakurai thinks the series warrants that many characters. It would be stupid to downsize the amount of reps, unless its a character that isn't important to there series. The only series to ever lose a rep spot was Mario, when Dr. Mario was cut, and he was still found on the disc. Sakurai thinks Starfox should have three and Earthbound should have two. So they probably will. The fact that you think they have too many characters, doesn't mean that Sakurai should cut them.

 

[TheAnvil]

Ah, gotcha... I am familiar with that quote but I wasn't sure if anything else was said that I missed. That's why I'm often upset when people deal with absolutes when it comes to quotes- there is usually room for interpretation.

The entire quote is:
"It isn't a matter of 'if the next game has 50 characters, that'll be enough.' There is a certain charm to games that have huge casts of playable characters, but they tend to have issues with game balance and it becomes very difficult to fine-tune each character and have them all feel distinctive. In terms of quantity, we've probably already reached the limit of what's feasible. I think a change of direction may be what's needed."

If we were to read that literally we would probably have to see a few cuts just to deal with the amount of new comers we've already seen. What I mostly took away from this is that the next game would require more than just a massive roster to be successful. It should also be noted that this was made in July of 2012, when production of the game had just begun. Since then, all we've heard is how smooth production has been going (especially compared to Brawl.) His not wanting to make cuts comment was actually made a full year later, and a lot can happen in that time. It is entirely possible (and complete conjecture on my part) that he could have planned out a decent batch of new comers with a healthy amount of cuts, but decided to reinstate characters due to how well development was going. It is also possible that we've seen all but two new comers. Like I said, it's all speculation at this point.

As for Ivysaur and Squirtle? I think it's odd we didn't see them at the same time we saw Charizard, and since I believe Jiggly Puff and Mewtwo will likely be back it would make for a roster with 8 playable Pokémon. Now, I don't believe that Pokémon can't have more spots than Mario or anything like that, but it does seem a bit extreme (to me anyway.)

You are right though, there is nothing explicitly pointing to their exclusion. It's the same with Lucas and Wolf (whom I think are probably in), really... people believe there will be cuts and are just trying to justify possible candidates for those cuts.

Good post. We have no firm word either way. I'd say that people that are saying that cuts are assured are just as wrong as people saying there won't be any. Either is entirely possible.

The fact that Wolf and Lucas are or aren't clones is irrelevant.
Star Fox and Mother have too many characters. That is why they should be cut.

Star Fox and Mother were both represented perfectly regarding the popularity, relevance and importance to Nintendo. Cutting Wolf would be cutting one of the few villains in the game, which is stupid.

 

[lilt]

Comparing Ghirahim to Zant and not to Midna is about the most insulting thing you can say to Ghirahim fans, mainly because it isn't true.

Midna couldn't have been in Brawl - the roster was decided before TP even came out. And that isn't irrelevant - one of Midna's main assets is her popularity, just like Ghirahim.

Brawl came out in 2008. Twilight Princess began development right after Wind Waker was released in 2002/2003. TP came out at the end of 2006. Even Link, Sheik and Zelda do have the TP look in Brawl.
In that regard, Zant or Midna really well could have been in Brawl, since development began at the end of 2005.

The only advantage that Ghirahim has over other, more fleshed out villains like Vaati, or more unique ones like Skull Kid, is being the latest villain of a console Zelda.
However, that's just my opinion.

 

[Kenith]

Brawl came out in 2008. Twilight Princess began development right after Wind Waker was released in 2002/2003. TP came out at the end of 2006. Even Link, Sheik and Zelda do have the TP look in Brawl. In that regard, Zant or Midna really well could have been in Brawl, since development began at the end of 2005.

No, because popularity is/was a major factor for them to be included, but they couldn't have had popularity because their game wasn't out when the roster was finished. Brawl's release date is irrelevant.
Ghirahim's game came out a year before development of this game even began. Plus, it is a two-game pattern, just like Ike getting replaced.

Skyward Sword was not unpopular. The motion controls were unpopular - however the story/characters were popular almost instantly. I know, I was there.

 

[samsparta21]

Look at the whole Ivysaur and Squirtle thing from an outside perspective. As I've said before they're two seemingly random Pokemon, and one isn't even fully evolved. They wanted to remove transformation characters, so they replaced Pokemon Trainer with Charizard, the only Pokemon who would make sense on his own.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

Skyward Sword was not unpopular. The motion controls were unpopular - however the story/characters were popular almost instantly. I know, I was there.

I think it was also unpopular in terms of sales. That being said, it has a LOT of content in SSB4 so far.

 

[samsparta21]

Also, @ TheAnvil , you expect too much of Sakurai. He's already said he won't be able to bring every character back, and two unnecessary Pokemon characters don't need to be in the next SSB.

 

[TheAnvil]

Look at the whole Ivysaur and Squirtle thing from an outside perspective. As I've said before they're two seemingly random Pokemon, and one isn't even fully evolved. They wanted to remove transformation characters, so they replaced Pokemon Trainer with Charizard, the only Pokemon who would make sense on his own.

They aren't random pokemon. They're starters from the most popular pokemon games ever, and have been constantly relevant in nearly every generation. Even the newest one.

They're among the most iconic Pokemon ever. Bronzor is a random Pokemon. Squirtle and Ivysaur aren't.

Also, @ TheAnvil , you expect too much of Sakurai. He's already said he won't be able to bring every character back, and two unnecessary Pokemon characters don't need to be in the next SSB.

#1 It's established that he meant every character in the entirety of Smash history. IE the Melee cuts. So that point doesn't "confirm" cuts.
#2 They aren't "unnecessary". If they were as "random" and "unnecessary" as you keep saying they are, they would have never been included. Sakurai could have just has easily used Charizard by himself in Smash and been done with it.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

Look at the whole Ivysaur and Squirtle thing from an outside perspective. As I've said before they're two seemingly random Pokemon, and one isn't even fully evolved.

Neither of them are fully evolved... Venusaur exists, LOL.

 

[Kenith]

I think it was also unpopular in terms of sales. That being said, it has a LOT of content in SSB4 so far.

I didn't think that is techncially "unpopular".

That being said, yes, I know it did not sell as well as other Zelda games.
But regardless of sales or reception, a poorly-received Zelda is still a lauded game in general.

 

[lilt]

No, because popularity is/was a major factor for them to be included, but they couldn't have had popularity because their game wasn't out when the roster was finished. Brawl's release date is irrelevant.
Ghirahim's game came out a year before development of this game even began. Plus, it is a two-game pattern, just like Ike getting replaced.

Skyward Sword was not unpopular. The motion controls were unpopular - however the story/characters were popular almost instantly. I know, I was there.

If it is true that the roster was decided that early, you truly got a point there.
However, besides Ghirahim's popularity,
I still think that he's simply not important enough for the Zelda Series to represent it along the 3 Triforce wielders and Toon Link. Popularity isn't everything.

 

[Kenith]

If it is true that the roster was decided that early, you truly got a point there.
However, besides Ghirahim's popularity, I do think that he's simply not important enough for the Zelda Series to represent it along the 3 Triforce wielders and Toon Link.

There is no rule that states Zelda must be solely represented by the three Triforce wielders, if there was, there is already an exception in the form of Sheik.

Sheik didn't have to be included - Zelda was fine on her own. But she was included anyway because Sakurai wanted a transformation mechanic. Proving it doesn't matter how many games the character has appeared in - just how important or influential it was and whether or not they could work in Smash Bros.

And frankly speaking, OoT was big when Melee came out, and it got a lot of content, and a character. And Skyward Sword is getting a lot of content in SSb4 right now...

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

I want Ghirahim to have a counter where he stops your attack with a single finger.

 

[TheAnvil]

Neither of them are fully evolved... Venusaur exists, LOL.

If we can only have fully evolved 'mons, RIP Pikachu and Jigglypuff.

 

[MasterofMonster]

On a random note, Mario Kart 8 has now sold 1,2 million.

Anyways, I doubt Squirtle and Ivysaur returns for many reasons. I mean, they are very popular, but they did pretty much only exist in Brawl thanks to Charizard, AND for the fact that Sakurai wanted a Mon of each weight class for the Trainer.

I expect Jiggly and Mewtwo to Return, making 6 Pokémon total, being a perfect number as that's how many Pkmn you can carry. And I expect Mewtwo this E3~

 

[MagnesD3]

Lucas is a semi-clone. Toon Link has more value since he represents "child" Link in the series. Plus, he's the only competitively viable Zelda rep.

Personally, Star Fox was just fine with Falco and Fox. I didn't really use Wolf, tbh.

Im sorry you didnt use wolf, how terrible of you.

 

[dezeray112]

Check this out. The schedule for the Twitch broadcasts. http://kotaku.com/twitchs-e3-schedule-is-full-of-juicy-teasers-1584790308

Of particular note: Tuesday 1440, Wednesday 1410, Thursday 1200 and Thursday 1440... Unnanounced Nintendo titles. We're gonna get 4 new games that are worth taking up the Twitch broadcast. I hope there's more that don't get twitch time but I think I'm running out reasons to not stock up on Cafineergy Sauce

I reckon that Pokken Fighters and S.T.E.A.M could be the 2 out of the 4 unannounced Nintendo games.

 

[Kenith]

I want Ghirahim to have a counter where he stops your attack with a single finger.

We all do.

Well, except for me. I was hoping the daggers would be his down B.

 

[ToothiestAura]

Well, just about a week to the Nintendo event and less than week to E3. We've reached the home stretch, folks. This week may be the longest one yet.

Honestly people need to stop saying that Lucas and Wolf are cut. Toon Link the worst clone of them all made it so why can't they?

And jiggs is so easy to develop it'd be dumb not to include her.

I think it does people better to think they were cut (as they were semi-clones) when Squirtle and Ivysaur, two completely unique characters, were (most likely) cut.

We all do.

Well, except for me. I was hoping the daggers would be his down B.

You need it to be his Down Special? You wouldn't be okay with it if his Daggers were another move? There's also no reason a counter has to be the Down Special, Villager's is his Standard Special.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

If we can only have fully evolved 'mons, RIP Pikachu and Jigglypuff.

I wasn't saying that, just correcting them.

 

[Phaazoid]

I honestly feel as though we are going to get a veteran prior to e3, it would be a very effective way of hyping up Nintendo's portion of e3 along with Smash.

Who are you expecting? One of brawls starting roster (mk, ic, Lucas, wario) or something like falco, falcon, or even snake?

 

[Aninymouse]

Dude, I loved SSE so much. For me, it was the best part of Brawl. Pikachu will always be Samus' best buddy ;_;7

 

[Skyfox2000]

I don't see why all of you assume Squritle and Ivysaur are Cut. We thought Lucario, Toon link, Ike were cut turns out we were wrong!

 

[Aninymouse]

I don't see why all of you assume Squritle and Ivysaur are Cut. We thought Lucario, Toon link, Ike were cut turns out we were wrong!

I thought that, huh? That's interesting. I don't remember thinking that.

I originally thought all of the Brawl characters would return, including "Pokemon Trainer." When the Direct and Greninja trailer came out, I assumed Squirtle and Ivysaur would not be coming back, but I was still sure that all the other Brawl characters would come back. If Snake isn't revealed at E3, then he's out, granted. But those are the only characters I see not coming back. There just isn't any reason for them not to. Sakurai said himself that the team was doing all they could to bring everyone back. I suppose Squirtle and Ivysaur (and maybe Snake) would be the ones he was apologizing for in advance. That is how I see it.

 

[Robertman2]

I wouldn't be surprised if they just sneaked Snake into the game.

 

[Aninymouse]

I wouldn't be surprised if they just sneaked Snake into the game.

I would expect a 3rd party character to be announced. I know things aren't always done the same way, but that is the pattern we have so far. If Snake isn't announced formally, I don't think he'll be back. Why wouldn't they announce him? Is Sonic better than him all the sudden? Mega Man? I'm pretty sure they'd give all 3 equal billing.

 

[TheAnvil]

I thought that, huh? That's interesting. I don't remember thinking that.

I originally thought all of the Brawl characters would return, including "Pokemon Trainer." When the Direct and Greninja trailer came out, I assumed Squirtle and Ivysaur would not be coming back, but I was still sure that all the other Brawl characters would come back. If Snake isn't revealed at E3, then he's out, granted. But those are the only characters I see not coming back. There just isn't any reason for them not to. Sakurai said himself that the team was doing all they could to bring everyone back. I suppose Squirtle and Ivysaur (and maybe Snake) would be the ones he was apologizing for in advance. That is how I see it.

I did see a LOT of people thinking that Lucario, Ike and Tink were going to be cut.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

Dude, I loved SSE so much. For me, it was the best part of Brawl. Pikachu will always be Samus' best buddy ;_;7

The relationships between different characters were cool, but everything involving Tabuu's plan towards the end was weak.

 

[Robertman2]

Because Snake is know for sneaking around. Normally in a cardboard box.

 

[Aninymouse]

I did see a LOT of people thinking that Lucario, Ike and Tink were going to be cut.

Yes, but by saying, "we thought," and "we were wrong," he is implying consensus. I was making sure to point out to him that that is incredibly sloppy thinking. Just because people who think like I do are not as vocal as the people who called for killing off a third of the Brawl newcomers, does not necessarily mean there are not a lot of people who think similar to the way I do. I do not claim to speak for everyone, and neither should he.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Check this out. The schedule for the Twitch broadcasts. http://kotaku.com/twitchs-e3-schedule-is-full-of-juicy-teasers-1584790308

Of particular note: Tuesday 1440, Wednesday 1410, Thursday 1200 and Thursday 1440... Unnanounced Nintendo titles. We're gonna get 4 new games that are worth taking up the Twitch broadcast. I hope there's more that don't get twitch time but I think I'm running out reasons to not stock up on Cafineergy Sauce

Sorry for my bluntness, but what is Cafineergy Sauce?