Duke Biweeklies has a new thread. It should be above this one in the tournament list

[Juno McGrath]

oh dear ****ing god Ed's zelda wtf

D tilt upsmash is sooo ****.


Haha, Thats listed as 75:25?

LOL.

 

[_Kadaj_]

....Look at the vid zr

 

[ZeldaRox!]

I mean, no offense to seibrink (I know he's good) but he really needs to just learn the match-up. Zelda should never get the downtilt on MK......never (unless he trips or she does the little tech to air dodge cancel to downtilt.....that's why you shield when Zelda is randomly jumping to you and air dodging right about your head). And he ran into smashes. If he knew the MU at all it would have been very different. Zelda's down-tilt is probably her best move (maybe her downsmash...not sure. both are pretty good). It leads into quite a bit and at certain percentages can combo into itself. But it should never land on an MK. Never. And as soon as Zelda goes off stage (happens around 60 on dsmash)....she is gimp status like you've never seen before. She should never recover. NEVER. If the MK didn't gimp the Zelda....the it was completely the player's fault. Zelda is prone to fair after fair after fair cause if she air dodges her balls recovery becomes even more balls. It takes 2 or 3 fairs....and then an edge hog. This is because Zelda has poor DI so she can't really adjust the angle that MK's dsmash sends her....meaning, she's going low. And Zelda's recovery is not good from under the the stage. It is prone to edge hog....and if she managed to not get edge hogged, she landed on the stage with tons of landing lag (i.e. time to roll and downsmash....wash rinse repeat; or jump up and sweet spot nair).

That MU is balls. That MU and the Olimar MU are the 2 that hold her back imo. If not for those 2, I would think she'd be an extremely viable character.

But I do love Zelda/Sheik. the Sheik:MK MU is slightly more manageable. But the Sheik:Olimar MU is just as bad. God Olimar!!! why do you dash my dreams of being a great Zelda/Sheik?!?

 

[Juno McGrath]

Seibrik is one of the best Mks in the nation.

 

[ZeldaRox!]

Seibrik is one of the best Mks in the nation.

lol that's why I said I know he's good. But clearly he doesn't know the MU (can't blaim him. Why would you learn such an unimportant MU. That's like preparing for the Ganon MU. Zelda is a beast when you fall prey to her wall of smashes (which he did). But really once you get past that (MK should be able to), her options become very limited. She still has some. But they're not as effective. The biggest issue with that MU is Zelda offstage is a free stock. She should not recover against MK. I take that back. If the Zelda saved her jump then she can make it back...after eating around 30-40 damage. But the MK can still force the Zelda to land her recovery on stage. I guess people don't realize how much landing lag that thing has. MK has a plethora of options for a Zelda landing her recovery onstage. Nair is good. Dsmash. Grab. shuttle loop. Whatever he likes. Most of his options can put her back offstage.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Dsmash doesn't send you low at all unless your DI is ***

She can easily land d tilts, POWERSHIELD ANYONE?

Incase you didn't know even if he did land a fair offstage you can SDI upwards to go up or even better get out of the fair altogether

Zelda's f smash > Mks tilts and direct approaches

Up smash is better than mk's vertical approaches

It may even be possible for Zelda to buffer a jump out of her shield drop animation and punish a dair on block

Nado also gets ***** by smashes


If you want to truly be a good player these are the things you should be exploiting vs mk.
But in general you need to be able to comprehend and compare frame data to be able to figure out how to really exploit each characters weakness and turn it into your strengths.

There are quite a bit of physics to learn before becoming really good. (Buffering punishes, SDI, Spacing, Adaptation, Reads, Character knowledge, Innovation, Understanding exchange aspects (which ranges from but are not limited to situational punishes, zoning options (being able to avoid certain hitbox and grab ranges) PROPER shielding and appropriate defensive measures (mindlessly spotdoding or rolling are not good at all) and using the correct offensive tools per exchange (meaning the safest ones)

Fighting games 101 - If you want to shine, logically go through the steps one at a time.

This is just for starters, but as I said if you want to be good you should definitely have all of that down.

 

[Cutz]

-Reads above post-

Clearly, I have very much to learn before I should even consider becoming good. xD

Anyhoo, I don't suppose someone is going to play smash tomorrow night sometime? My friend and I were looking for something to do. We're currently in Jacksonville, east coast.

He plays Zelda/Shiek and Diddy, and I play Rob and Pikachu. We're looking to improve but are aware that we have a lot to work on. Willing to get our butts beaten for the sake of getting better though.

 

[Juno McGrath]

-Reads above post-

Clearly, I have very much to learn before I should even consider becoming good. xD

Anyhoo, I don't suppose someone is going to play smash tomorrow night sometime? My friend and I were looking for something to do. He plays Zelda/Shiek and Diddy, and I play Rob and Pikachu. We're looking to improve but are aware that we have a lot to work on. Willing to get our butts beaten for the sake of getting better though.

I live in kannapolis, If your nearby

Also Eddy avatar ftw :D

 

[ZeldaRox!]

-Reads above post-

Clearly, I have very much to learn before I should even consider becoming good. xD

Anyhoo, I don't suppose someone is going to play smash tomorrow night sometime? My friend and I were looking for something to do. He plays Zelda/Shiek and Diddy, and I play Rob and Pikachu. We're looking to improve but are aware that we have a lot to work on. Willing to get our butts beaten for the sake of getting better though.

lol new year's eve and you're looking to play smash; hehe. Well I can play when I get off of work (which isn't until 8p). I can get to J-Ville by 9:15 or 9:30.

Just pm me your address.

But I do wanna get 'tipsy' (read: kinda drunk). It wouldn't be a prob if I were to drink at your place would it? I want to drink me some grey goose and plymouth

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yo if i didn't have a party, i would be kind of down to invite you to wilmington and play with me.

i'd even consider researching brawl for such a purpose.

it's good to see people with drive. i approve wholeheartedly.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Read my post ZR! Read it! Embrace it, and become one with it lol

 

[Cutz]

PM Sent. Would be very nice to actually meet the tournament organizer and see a little bit about how tournaments are run and all. Always good to have a chat, yes?

Also I don't mind if you drink, I'm over 21. As long as you don't drive after you drink. Wouldn't want you to have an accident right before your tournament, y'know?

 

[ZeldaRox!]

Read my post ZR! Read it! Embrace it, and become one with it lol

I mean I read it and there were 1 or 2 things that were just.....wrong. But I didn't feel it necessary to point them out, considering for the most part it was right and smart.

I just had one major question. You say her UpSmash is 'better' than MK's vertical approaches. This is a very loose thing to say. Since you don't say beats, I assume you mean it certainly depends on timing.


But I don't quite know what the timing would be. If you do it as MK is dairing, I'm pretty sure you get outranged. If you do it after (unless you powershield), he should be jumping away. And if you do it before, well then, now you are a big target ready to be punished. The timing has to be really strict I suppose.

PM Sent. Would be very nice to actually meet the tournament organizer and see a little bit about how tournaments are run and all. Always good to have a chat, yes?

Also I don't mind if you drink, I'm over 21. As long as you don't drive after you drink.

yes, it's good to chat

and I never drink and drive

 

[Cutz]

Excellent. Looking forward to an awesome night. Parents will be leaving the house and we have nothing better to do. At least this way, we have an excuse to meet with people from the tournament scene before we actually go to said tournament.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Everything I said was true ZR lol

I know the Zelda MU with MK, and I've played good Zelda's (Ed, NL, hell even D0N 2nd her for a really long time at one point)

I know what she can and can't do for the most part, I didn't say it wouldn't be a bit difficult to do any of those things either..

 

[ZeldaRox!]

Everything I said was true ZR lol

I know the Zelda MU with MK, and I've played good Zelda's (Ed, NL, hell even D0N 2nd her for a really long time at one point)

I know what she can and can't do for the most part, I didn't say it wouldn't be a bit difficult to do any of those things either..

okay....so things that are wrong:

by smashes '****' tornado, I think you mean the vacuum* (if it hits in time) will pull you forward and MK back and you both lay on the ground in a tripped fashion. *****? I don't think so. If you mean her smashes beat MK in the parts where he doesn't have hitboxes (i.e. upsmash below him).....well, any smash does that.

By a low angle on dsmash, I meant she would be sent towards the middle......which is horrible for Zelda. She needs to always be heading towards the upper corners.

MK's fair: I guess you can DI up (certainly can't DI out if he does it well). But that will just set him up. The best you can do is keep on DI'ng up and up. then he shuttle loops and kills you and has enough horizontal room to float to the the ledge.

Or he has the option to dair you.

All the MK has to do is sit there and wait for you to press upb. After that first frame and for the next second or 2 you are in a vulnerable state. He can set up his spacing and fair/dair you appropirately.

Craig.....Zelda is garbage offstage.......GARBAGE.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

kadaj knows.

edit: can't you like airdodge? i hear you get a lot of those in that game. if you're recovering high, and paying attention, i figure any single direct attack (ie, shuttle loop) would get dodged, right?

don't get knocked offstage.

 

[ZeldaRox!]

kadaj knows.

edit: can't you like airdodge? i hear you get a lot of those in that game. if you're recovering high, and paying attention, i figure any single direct attack (ie, shuttle loop) would get dodged, right?

don't get knocked offstage.

that's why the good MK waits for you to go into that 2 second vulnerable state. The starting lag on Zelda's recoverign is the only thing about her worse than the ending lag on her recovery.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

which is why you're recovering high so you don't have to up B...right? that game is so floaty, you should be able to drift over without really dealing with an up b if you have good DI.

unless you mean...starting the airdodge?

 

[_Kadaj_]

I Know she is bad offstage

I should've rephrased that Her up smash ***** Nado, and if your smart you can just shield and punish as well.

On the whole dsmash and mk fair tidbit what your referring to is kinda irrelevant because what you're referring to is a result of bad DI, when hit with Dsmash you should be Double Stick Or QCDIingUp and into it on hit which as a result will send you upwards into the farthest coner of the blast zones (ie the area where you live the longest)

Also there isn't really a such thing as an MK fairing you well, at least not in the context you're using. Regardless of how well placed it is SDI'ing up will send you upwards ALL THE TIME and at best if you're really good at it you can get out of the move all together.

 

[ZeldaRox!]

which is why you're recovering high so you don't have to up B...right? that game is so floaty, you should be able to drift over without really dealing with an up b if you have good DI.

unless you mean...starting the airdodge?

precisely. But, if you sit there and try to just float with the MK sitting in front of you he will fair you. If you go for the airdodge, he can chase you with a dair. But unfortunately, if you airdodged the first time he went for you (assuming with good DI you are somewhere in the middle of the frame), he doesn't even have to chase you with the Dair. You are so low at this point (and considering that the airdodge reduces your horizontal movement to nothing), you are so far low and so horizontally away that you have to at this point have to recover. At this point, hopefully MK is out of jumps. But he WILL get to the ledge before your ending lag is over. At which point, it's wash rinse repeat for the MK.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

(assuming with good DI you are somewhere in the middle of the frame)

not good enough DI, according to kadaj.

get them sticks workin, boy.

i'm goin to sleep. you main falco anyway zr, so you don't have to worry your little head over this too much.

pew pew *****

 

[ZeldaRox!]

I Know she is bad offstage

I should've rephrased that Her up smash ***** Nado, and if your smart you can just shield and punish as well.

On the whole dsmash and mk fair tidbit what your referring to is kinda irrelevant because what you're referring to is a result of bad DI, when hit with Dsmash you should be Double Stick Or QCDIingUp and into it on hit which as a result will send you upwards into the farthest coner of the blast zones (ie the area where you live the longest)

Also there isn't really a such thing as an MK fairing you well, at least not in the context you're using. Regardless of how well placed it is SDI'ing up will send you upwards ALL THE TIME and at best if you're really good at it you can get out of the move all together.

When I said if he places it well (i.e. waits for you to do the upb where he can do the fair right on your hitbox rather than at the tip of the sword) I meant you couldn't SDI out of it (which is what it seem like you were implying).

And yes, the SDI will send you up. But like I said that sets him up. He can come up and upair you in a very vulnerable state (I pray you still have your jump but even if you do, MK can glide to the stage fore you reach it....or just Nado you to the stage). Either way, you should be hit with 2 attacks before you ever get back. And then the MK still has options once you try to get back onstage. Zelda needs to stay on the stage is the bottom line. She does not want to be trying to get back on stage with and MK below or in front of her.

 

[ZeldaRox!]

not good enough DI, according to kadaj.

get them sticks workin, boy.

i'm goin to sleep. you main falco anyway zr, so you don't have to worry your little head over this too much.

pew pew *****

oh nvm



.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

edit: you have read the post, and seen the light.

 

[ZeldaRox!]

edit: you have read the post, and seen the light.

not that at all.

I just don't want to explain the first thing any Zelda player learns immediately. Zelda has very little influence on her DI. It is a part of her physics that is good at protecting her against chaingrabs but is bad everywhere else.

 

[_Kadaj_]

That's 2 different things lol

She doesn't get cg because of her weight lol

 

[ZeldaRox!]

That's 2 different things lol

She doesn't get cg because of her weight lol

no go read the the Zelda boards. They say because of the way her physics work, the part about having bad DI makes her somewhat invulvernable to Chaingrabs. At least that's what the boards say.

I read it like 5 months ago. It was in one of the older MU discussions. I think the Falco ones.

 

[_Kadaj_]

lol only to d3's cg

She's a lightweight though, no lightweights can be cg'd by him

She can still be cg'd by falco though

 

[ZeldaRox!]

lol only to d3's cg

She's a lightweight though, no lightweights can be cg'd by him

She can still be cg'd by falco though

no it came up because most of the falco's on the boards were saying that it was impossible to cg her (because they were doing the running cg). It was soon 'discovered' she could only be cg by a walking cg. So explain to me how weight would prevent falco from doing a running one but allow him to do a walking one?

 

[_Kadaj_]

It varies for each character lol

 

[ZeldaRox!]

It varies for each character lol

this statement was pointless.

No kidding the chainthrow varies for each character.

Just wondering why weight affect that. It seems like if the character is really light (i.e. Zelda), then you would HAVE to run to get to them but no, instead you run past them. This seems more like the throw sends them very vertical and barely horizontal. This would either seem like a physics involved in the knockback of the downthrow or something intrinsic to the characters DI.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Falco's and D3's CG differ a lot.

D3's is based solely on the principle of weight. This is because his sends you into a weak semi-spike state. If you're heavy, you won't go into missed tech or techable state. Because of this, you're in grounded hitstun, where he can regrab. However, if you're light enough, then you get hit strong enough that you can tech/miss tech.

Falco's chaingrab is simply based on hitstun from the lasers. Instead of spiking you or using ground stun, he's literally using the hitstun from his d-throw. When you get thrown, you get sent up a slight amount. This can vary from character to character based on weight resistance, gravity and hurtbox size (the latter being most probable for why Zelda can't be running CG'd).

not that at all.

I just don't want to explain the first thing any Zelda player learns immediately. Zelda has very little influence on her DI. It is a part of her physics that is good at protecting her against chaingrabs but is bad everywhere else.

What? Nooooo.....

Everyone has the same DI capability!

 

[ZeldaRox!]

Falco's and D3's CG differ a lot.

D3's is based solely on the principle of weight. This is because his sends you into a weak semi-spike state. If you're heavy, you won't go into missed tech or techable state. Because of this, you're in grounded hitstun, where he can regrab. However, if you're light enough, then you get hit strong enough that you can tech/miss tech.

Falco's chaingrab is simply based on hitstun from the lasers. Instead of spiking you or using ground stun, he's literally using the hitstun from his d-throw. When you get thrown, you get sent up a slight amount. This can vary from character to character based on weight resistance, gravity and hurtbox size (the latter being most probable for why Zelda can't be running CG'd).



What? Nooooo.....

Everyone has the same DI capability!

I mean that's what I thought but when I mained her, on the Zelda boards they said that Zelda doesn't influence her direction as much as other characters can.

So it seems everything posted on the Zelda boards is either wrong or just unknown. I am so glad I don't main her anymore.

 

[Juno McGrath]

Damn mike get ****ed up.

R-Psi coming in with the "Trust me I know everything about brawl physics" card

 

[ZeldaRox!]

Damn mike get ****ed up.

R-Psi coming in with the "Trust me I know everything about brawl physics" card

I mean it's really frustrating that most everything I learned about Zelda I learned off those boards and half of it seems to be either wrong or misunderstood.

UGH so frustrating!

 

[Cutz]

There is a difference between theory and actually testing out said theory. Perhaps the people that had the bad information on the boards didn't accurate test the physics in an actual battle before distributing the information?

 

[Juno McGrath]

There is a difference between theory and actually testing out said theory. Perhaps the people that had the bad information on the boards didn't accurate test the physics in an actual battle before distributing the information?

This is most likely true, Are-Sigh actually makes a habit of studying brawl physics.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Trust the people with flasks under their name.

 

[Stockfield]

Rocket I love your avatar.