Drew is an Oppressive Mod: The Tourney

[derf]

im an active member of florida's smash scene, and normally i'd never post in another region like this but the whole brawl v melee thing kinda has me on tilt plus its like 6am here so w/e. basically i apologize in advance for trolling.

for something other than tripping that actually makes brawl a poor game i'd point at the buffer system. not only does it encourage players to not know specific lag times, hit stuns, etc (knowing the game), but it actually makes your character do things you didnt input. i'll list some problems ive encounted in my own gameplay:

when i do a retreating fair with marth, i immediately turn around when i land, and if i jab/grab, i do it facing backwards.
when i mash buttons to break out of a grab, i immediately burn my double jump or do some random b move that gets me owned.
when i fastfall an aerial at the last minute, i duck on landing.

originally, i didnt attribute some of these problems to buffering but rather to my newness to the game and it was synikal (another fl player) who pointed some of them out to me. hes got a thread somewhere on the horrors of the buffer system, but im too lazy to find it right now

*runs back to FL*

 

[The MC Clusky]

Kinda like why the strongest Super Art in 3rd Strike, Hugo's Gigas Breaker, is a 720 input. It's not supposed to be easy to whip out a grab with a one frame startup.

 

[Kal]

I have no idea what you just said Kyle. All I know about 3rd Strike is that Ken is top tier.

Can you like... elaborate?

 

[DoH]

I hate how rolls will turn you around the wrong direction

What's your ruleset Xelic? And why isn't brinstar on random?

 

[Broly]

aight...my 2 cents..

Melee is gone for this reason. You really think the majority of smashers(noobs, casuals, w/e) are gonna go to the same tourny for 5-6 years of, lose to cave, DoH, or xelic, when a new game w/ more chances to win is installed in? I'm not saying brawl is better than Melee. But you must realize the MAJORITY of people who enter tournys are scrubs. if that wasnt the case you wouldn't see 1st-Caveman 2nd-Xelic unless Forward goes. You can try to keep Melee alive but the new generation of Brawlers will overlap the old generation of melee players. All games are like this. Either get use to it, or play Brawl.

-broly out

 

[Xyro77]

Brawl is the future. your attempts will not work........
Poor kids.......

 

[Infinitysmash]

Xelic: the problem I find with your assertion is that it doesn't really make the gameplay more interesting or layered; just harder. Eventually it reaches the point where everybody you meet in tournament L-cancels and there is no divide. If no L-canceling existed and the moves just had low amounts of lag like you see in other fighters, then we'd still have the combos without the pointless technical barrier.

I believe the separation between a competitive and casual player should come from your ability to read situations and opponents.

Galt: Like I said; I'm not landing actual "combos," but instead predicting my opponent's response to being hit and following up based on that. If I believe you will air dodge to avoid my next attack, then I will delay that attack. If I think you will attack me, I will re-position myself for a shield grab or a move that will outprioritize yours. If I think you will jump, I do my best to target the areas above you, or control the parts beneath you that give me a positional advantage.

And again, the strings are not locked in place; they arise from predicting the enemy's response as I move in to attack. Samus has f-air, u-air and canceled air-grapples to create her combos. I use Wario so with my air control I will land an aerial, air dodge through the opponent's retaliatory strike onto the ground to cancel it, then follow with another hit. Or I'll go with Meta-Knight, landing aerials and following up into careful range where I can pressure dodges and shields with tilts and grabs.

Here is how combo'ing has to work in Brawl: You land a hit and force the opponent into a disadvantageous position. He will have to choose some response to avoid your next action--if you can accurately guess what response that will be, you can make sure his response is the wrong one.

Also: it's not obvious to me what is wrong with Brawl, Galt. Explain it carefully to me so that I can understand what you don't like. And... well, yes it must be about the competitiveness of Brawl, since you said that Brawl has no competitive future. You didn't say anything about "fun." According to Xelic, he knew it wasn't "competitive" after "1 hour" of play.

I want to know what makes this game so unplayable at the competitive level. Somebody explain it to me, because I'm clearly too stupid to see what is so "obvious" to everybody else.

While I wholeheartedly agree with you when you say that L-Cancelling adds difficulty to the game, I have to disagree when you say that it does not add layers to the game. At it's core the competitive side of this game is about adaptation, and I can see you support this statement with what you say regarding your combo abilities and tactics with your characters. If you have to adapt to someone by learning to L-Cancel in order to win, then that's what needs to be done without question. It's true that eventually everyone will be doing this in tournaments; however, if you are in a tournament you are there to win and need to do what is necessary to do so.

However, I do believe that Brawl has far more depth to the system to it than Melee does. Rather than relying strings of combos that -WILL- instantly kill your opponent and prevent them from doing anything about it (ref. Marth v Falco fights, they're rife with examples of this) you are forced to outplay your opponent. This increases the value of basic skills such as placement, dodging and mind gaming your opponent; all of which require the player to put more effort into winning their match, which is a clear indication that it takes skill. Brawl requires a different focus on a different set of skills than Melee did, while I don't believe that one takes any MORE skill than the other I do believe that Brawl's combo system has more depth to it and requires you to work harder towards your goal.

Also, according to the results from a recent tournament in the Dallas area, players who did well on Melee will do well on Brawl. Bluezaft, who is one of the people who is on the Melee side of this argument, got 4th in the Brawl tournament out of 62. Melee1, who had only played the game once before the tournament, ended up in 9th. This shows that players who have a degree of skill from the old game can translate that skill into this one. Isn't this also an indication that players with more skill will do better in this game than players with less, which makes it perfectly viable for tournaments?

 

[Galt]

I suppose, in response to Wobbles, I'll do something which I originally said I wouldn't do. Even though I really do still think Brawl's problems are obvious, even if you try to say they aren't, I'll be more explicit. Even though I see that your "combo" understanding relies on your opponent being bad at the game, I'll continue the argument.

I wrote these things some time ago, so it may be that my opinions have changed slightly in some ways, but certainly not in the major ways. It may also be that they're filled with typos, because I was distracted a whole bunch of times while writing them.

Anyway, the following are my main problems with Brawl, aside from the things which Hylian already named and which I don't think you really answered. Included in the second is my argument for why L-canceling is necessary and adds depth. Read them in order.

And when I say it's not fun, that's largely because I think it isn't very competitive, but it's also a matter of personal taste, in that I hate the way the game feels. They breed each other, really.

Intro: http://omni22.deviantart.com/art/Smash-I-Introduction-78769934
ATs: http://omni22.deviantart.com/art/Smash-II-Advanced-Techniques-78770048
Character design: http://omni22.deviantart.com/art/Smash-III-Characters-79362551

As I said, those don't contain all my problems with Brawl, because I essentially have a problem with... just about everything. It doesn't have to be Melee 2.0, but maybe it should've been, and at least it shouldn't have been Melee 0.5.

 

[Xelic]

Wobbles: What's wrong with "forcing" tech skill? Things like that are also a measure of a players ability to be consistent, as well as keep his cool during a match. I think being good at a game should encompass all aspects of the game, including control.

Also, it's not like it's even completely necessary to have that skill in Melee (Azen isn't insanely technical, Broly can't even use the shoulder buttons). It just adds another advantage for players who are willing or able to utilize that mechanic. I think it's fair for players to be rewarded with an advantage for working hard to get some aspect of the game down. If you don't want to take advantage of that, then you'll need to find some way to up your mind games in order to overcome someone else's advantage in the area. I view that as depth in gameplay.

 

[Vat- Zero]

Yo, this is Vat- Zero. Less than 3 days before the big Goop tourney

"Goop's AZ Brawl Tourney"

When:
- On Saturday April 5th

Where:
- 4533 S. Mill Ave. Tempe, AZ 85282

 

[Xelic]

What? If AZ was going to send someone into my topic, they should have sent someone worthwhile. >=(

Hey Vat, don't come back unless you bring Taj or Forward. <3

 

[Vat- Zero]

I bring myself you faagg. "<3"

 

[Vat- Zero]

theres a rumor going around that Xelic in Latin means Licking smelly balls. I see the correlation. Interesting...did pick out that name? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[Xelic]

You sure burned me, Vat. You even double posted because that much pwn could not be edited into a single post. **** man, you're good.

 

[bluezaft]

I miss l-canceling. Not because it made me feel fancy and technical, but because it made approaching safe. There just aren't enough good ways of approaching in Brawl.

Personally, I'm not interested in playing Brawl competitively (whether it's competitively viable or not) because the game is super boring. My favorite is when I tell someone I don't like Brawl because it's boring and they respond that I'm clearly just afraid of change. This has happened a LOT. Like the only reason I'm not enjoying myself when playing Brawl is because I'm too close-minded?

 

[Galt]

Personally, I'm not interested in playing Brawl competitively (whether it's competitively viable or not) because the game is super boring. My favorite is when I tell someone I don't like Brawl because it's boring and they respond that I'm clearly just afraid of change. This has happened a LOT. Like the only reason I'm not enjoying myself when playing Brawl is because I'm too close-minded?

When we get together in the local basement every week, we get that at least once a day. Some random guy walks up:

"IS THAT THE NEW GAME?"

Us: "No."
Him: <deep perplexity> "...Why not? ...Do you guys not have it or something?"
Us: "No, it's just really boring, so no one here wants to play it."
Him: "...Oh, you guys are just afraid of change. / Oh, you guys just haven't given it a chance. / Oh, you guys are crazy." etc.

That also illustrates another reason why we aren't playing Brawl in the basement: we'd be swamped by random people who know nothing.

 

[DoH]

I had to buy a new copy of Melee because I left mine on the East Coast and the gamestop people thought I was crazy after I called Brawl trash.

I'm thinking of teaching the kids at TCU Brawl lessons for money. Capitalism is delicious.

 

[Sars_Pirate]

So focused doing melee vs brawl posts on gfaqs I forgot here . . .

 

[Xelic]

Ew, newer version of Melee. My brother bought me a copy for Christmas, since I've been using his since 2004. Now I can't do the Link super jump and it ruins all my fun.

 

[DoH]

Oh, I got used copy and made sure it was 00.

 

[Infinitysmash]

I had to buy a new copy of Melee because I left mine on the East Coast and the gamestop people thought I was crazy after I called Brawl trash.

I'm thinking of teaching the kids at TCU Brawl lessons for money. Capitalism is delicious.

Teach Catfish to play better

 

[DoH]

Who's catfish?

 

[Infinitysmash]

Who's catfish?

Short Asian dude named Chris, don't know his last name.

Edit - Ramirez!... and he's Asian... Random.

 

[G@BE]

I wanna play melee

Anyone want to try and start a revolution with me

 

[forkgirl]

Sometimes, I'll just get sooo bored of brawl that i'll choose a random character and button mash. I'll be watching anime on my laptop with a controller in my hand, maybe looking up at the tv every 3 seconds. and i'll win. thats why brawl sucks.

 

[Vitamin X]

That doesn't prove Brawl sucks. That proves your opponent wasn't on his/her game.

Despite the fact that I originally moved to Brawl solely because Melee was left with a ghost community upon its release, I would say that Brawl isn't as horrible as some people are making it out to be, mainly citing Wobbles' points earlier in this thread.

You still have prediction and punishment. You still have the battle for control of spacing and control of the stage. You actually still have tech skills, just different ones. I'm sure you can name several tech skills in Brawl that aren't in Melee; just think about it for a few seconds.

I really don't miss L-cancelling that much; it made a lot of KO moves nearly spammable. In Brawl, since aerials have their set amount of landing lag, and the powerful ones tend to have more lag, you actually have to be sure you're going to hit an aerial KO move in order to reap any advantage from using it.


However, I admit tripping is pure and utter garbage, and I, like everyone else, see no conceivable reason for sullying a good game with that (dare I say it?) GLITCH.

Also, I really miss wavedashing; it gave both players more options in the battle to control spacing, for moving on platforms, and for getting back onto the stage once you got the edge.


In conclusion, Brawl can still be competitive; if for no other reason, that the mental battle with your opponent still seems to be intact.

...I seem to have typed a lot more than I had originally intended. Oh well.

 

[Kal]

That's not enough, though. There's a mental edge to every non-random one-versus-one game. It's true that any game without randomness can be competitive, but it's depth that determines how competitive a game is. This is evidenced by the difference between 64 and Melee, Chess and Checkers, T-Ball and Baseball (I think; I'm not big on sports).

While there are character specific technical skills in Brawl, there were plenty in Melee (waveshine, needle cancel, Double-Fair, float-cancel, comboing with Falcon, WoP, etc). But in Melee, there were also technical skills that every character could use.

Arguing that L-Canceling made KO moves spammable is silly. I can't think of a move that could KO and be spammed with L-Canceling, but not without it. Zelda's fair/bair, Ganon's fair/bair, Sheik's fair, Falcon's fair are all perfectly usable without reducing their landing lag in half.

 

[Broly]

sigh, ok here i go. If u think its boring MM me. ill make it exciting by taking ur money. its that easy to spark interest. I MM u kal, or forkgirl n see if mashing will get you the win. it wont. And im not threatening/bullying ppl to like brawl. its an example. I think its boring cuz no one gives me comp.

-broly out

 

[Kal]

What the hell is your point, Broly? You're acting like a 4 year old.

You being able to beat me suddenly makes the game exciting? I can probably beat you at Def Jam Vendetta: Fight for NY, which is a God Awful game.

I didn't say that Brawl took no skill. I simply said that Brawl takes a considerable amount less skill than Melee does. You can like Brawl all you want, but childishly running into the topic and implying that you being able to beat someone makes the game worth playing is idiotic.

 

[Vitamin X]

That's not enough, though. There's a mental edge to every non-random one-versus-one game. It's true that any game without randomness can be competitive, but it's depth that determines how competitive a game is. This is evidenced by the difference between 64 and Melee, Chess and Checkers, T-Ball and Baseball (I think; I'm not big on sports).

While there are character specific technical skills in Brawl, there were plenty in Melee (waveshine, needle cancel, Double-Fair, float-cancel, comboing with Falcon, WoP, etc). But in Melee, there were also technical skills that every character could use.

Arguing that L-Canceling made KO moves spammable is silly. I can't think of a move that could KO and be spammed with L-Canceling, but not without it. Zelda's fair/bair, Ganon's fair/bair, Sheik's fair, Falcon's fair are all perfectly usable without reducing their landing lag in half.

Would you mind if we continued this debate for a couple of posts?

First, the technical aspect. Wavedashing, we know, is gone in Brawl. The ability to attack out of shield can be used to fill a large part of that niche. Allow me that explain what I mean by that.

In Melee, a popular tactic with Marth was the wavedash backward and F-smash, creating the space you want for that attack. In Brawl, you can do almost the same thing by dashing away from the opponent, canceling it with your shield, then smashing toward the opponent. Same with tilts, more difficult with jabs. This can be done with any character, but it's probably most useful with Marth.

Another example is the absence of the JC grab. Once again, not as absent as you might think. A dashing shield grab does almost the same thing; letting you do the safer grab animation out of a dash.

Wavedashing off the side to edgehog? Dashing off the side and pressing Control Stick toward the stage does exactly the same thing.

Regarding the L-cancelling bit, I'd concede Zelda's F-air and B-air, as well as Sheik's F-air. However, Ganondorf's F-air, and to a lesser extent, his B-air, were frequently used and whiffed without too much fear of punishment due to L-cancel--> jab. Not entirely sure about the knee, though. Let me throw in the spacies' B-air for discussion as well.

 

[Kal]

Would you mind if we continued this debate for a couple of posts?

First, the technical aspect. Wavedashing, we know, is gone in Brawl. The ability to attack out of shield can be used to fill a large part of that niche. Allow me that explain what I mean by that.

In Melee, a popular tactic with Marth was the wavedash backward and F-smash, creating the space you want for that attack. In Brawl, you can do almost the same thing by dashing away from the opponent, canceling it with your shield, then smashing toward the opponent. Same with tilts, more difficult with jabs. This can be done with any character, but it's probably most useful with Marth.

Another example is the absence of the JC grab. Once again, not as absent as you might think. A dashing shield grab does almost the same thing; letting you do the safer grab animation out of a dash.

Wavedashing off the side to edgehog? Dashing off the side and pressing Control Stick toward the stage does exactly the same thing.

Regarding the L-cancelling bit, I'd concede Zelda's F-air and B-air, as well as Sheik's F-air. However, Ganondorf's F-air, and to a lesser extent, his B-air, were frequently used and whiffed without too much fear of punishment due to L-cancel--> jab. Not entirely sure about the knee, though. Let me throw in the spacies' B-air for discussion as well.

You're basically arguing that a few of Melee's advanced tactics can be done in Brawl through different techniques. This isn't relevant; there is an opening game and positional advantage to Checkers, but Chess is clearly the deeper game.

 

[Vitamin X]

You're basically arguing that a few of Melee's advanced tactics can be done in Brawl through different techniques. This isn't relevant; there is an opening game and positional advantage to Checkers, but Chess is clearly the deeper game.

Okay, you've stated that chess is a deeper game than checkers, and I agree there.

But who said that Melee is analogous to chess and Brawl to checkers? That, I believe, is what we're trying to decide, so simply stating that isn't sufficiently convincing evidence. There's no way I'd try to reverse that analogy, but from my few weeks playing Brawl and my 10 months playing Melee, I wouldn't say they are as dissimilar as chess and checkers.

So, please explain in detail what makes Melee that much deeper than Brawl as a competitive game. For example, is there an entire aspect (for lack of a better word) of a Melee match that is more or less absent from a Brawl match?

 

[Espy Rose]

So, please explain in detail what makes Melee that much deeper than Brawl as a competitive game. For example, is there an entire aspect (for lack of a better word) of a Melee match that is more or less absent from a Brawl match?

This is what I've been wondering for quite some time. Hopefully someone could answer this with some good detail and such.

This is really dissapointing and depressing though. Never thought the majority of those I play at tournaments would prefer Melee over Brawl.

It makes me sad.

 

[Broly]

What the hell is your point, Broly? You're acting like a 4 year old.

You being able to beat me suddenly makes the game exciting? I can probably beat you at Def Jam Vendetta: Fight for NY, which is a God Awful game.

I didn't say that Brawl took no skill. I simply said that Brawl takes a considerable amount less skill than Melee does. You can like Brawl all you want, but childishly running into the topic and implying that you being able to beat someone makes the game worth playing is idiotic.

wuts your point? did u beat me w/ melee? no, even w/ adv techniques. i didnt need them, n i still *****. are you saying u rather play a game you cant win in, even tho u show more skill? Point is, ur not liking brawl becuz melee has been competitve for 6 years. its hard to compare games when one was fully exploited n the other hasnt received the same opprotunity. dont attack me becuz i have an oppinion on the game, i was giving an example.

 

[bluezaft]

Broly, quit being a noob of Sakurai's calibur. Winning does not equal fun. If someone doesn't like a game he doesn't like it. You suggesting that everybody needs to dedicate a year or two to Brawl to make it more fun makes no sense--why would anyone spend so much time playing a game he doesn't like in the first place?

Everybody on these boards liked Melee when they didn't know advanced techniques and only played with noob friends. On the other hand, we don't like Brawl from the get-go; you can't FIX that--it's personal taste and no amount of reasoning can suddenly make us enjoy playing Brawl.

You're making a very faulty assumption that Kal doesn't like Brawl because he isn't good at it. Except that he got 2nd at the last Brawl tournament...come to think of it, both the 2nd AND 1st place winners hate Brawl.

"are you saying u rather play a game you cant win in"
Yes! Because that game is more fun!

 

[Broly]

Broly, quit being a noob of Sakurai's calibur. Winning does not equal fun. If someone doesn't like a game he doesn't like it. You suggesting that everybody needs to dedicate a year or two to Brawl to make it more fun makes no sense--why would anyone spend so much time playing a game he doesn't like in the first place?

Everybody on these boards liked Melee when they didn't know advanced techniques and only played with noob friends. On the other hand, we don't like Brawl from the get-go; you can't FIX that--it's personal taste and no amount of reasoning can suddenly make us enjoy playing Brawl.

You're making a very faulty assumption that Kal doesn't like Brawl because he isn't good at it. Except that he got 2nd at the last Brawl tournament...come to think of it, both the 2nd AND 1st place winners hate Brawl.

"are you saying u rather play a game you cant win in"
Yes! Because that game is more fun!

i agree blue, melee is more fun. but i dont like the fact that people get left out of the fun. so many people play for years w/o ever reaching the top. sure you NEED to get better, but theres always a limit. im not saying U HAVE to like brawl, idc. u guys dont make up the majority of the community. But i truly wont ever understand the reason y so many ppl waste so much time and money traveling jus to get ***** jus for fun. in melee's prime fine, but not after 6 years.

 

[Xelic]

Are you saying that Brawl won't become the same way? That people won't "get left out of the fun?" If Brawl is really as competitive as all of its proponents say it is, then it will necessarily turn out exactly the same way Melee has. If there is that much skill to be had in Brawl, then the game will still be dominated by the few, with the majority of people never placing near the top, always wasting money, and always getting owned.

Your posts don't make any sense.

 

[reqy]

ur skillz and ur comboz dont make any sense either xelic.

 

[Broly]

Are you saying that Brawl won't become the same way? That people won't "get left out of the fun?" If Brawl is really as competitive as all of its proponents say it is, then it will necessarily turn out exactly the same way Melee has. If there is that much skill to be had in Brawl, then the game will still be dominated by the few, with the majority of people never placing near the top, always wasting money, and always getting owned.

Your posts don't make any sense.

i claim there is balance in the game, not like melee. 15 characters or more in brawl are decent, not like 8 characters of melee.

 

[Kal]

wuts your point? did u beat me w/ melee? no, even w/ adv techniques. i didnt need them, n i still *****. are you saying u rather play a game you cant win in, even tho u show more skill? Point is, ur not liking brawl becuz melee has been competitve for 6 years. its hard to compare games when one was fully exploited n the other hasnt received the same opprotunity. dont attack me becuz i have an oppinion on the game, i was giving an example.

Don't tell me why I don't like Brawl or why I prefer Melee. I dislike Brawl because it is slow, possesses few advanced tactics and encourages major camping.

And try to avoid the strawman arguments when you're having an adult discussion. Pointing out that I've never beaten you in Melee is meaningless. Hylian's beaten you before, and in my previous set with him, I won. The point isn't relevant to whether or not you're better than me at Melee; you being able to beat me means nothing. Xelic feels the same way about Brawl; had he made the point, you couldn't pull the "but you never beat me in Melee!" argument out of your ***.

i claim there is balance in the game, not like melee. 15 characters or more in brawl are decent, not like 8 characters of melee.

There's balance in Melee if everyone picks the same character, or any set of two characters who are evenly matched against each other, or any set of three characters who are all evenly matched against each other. What's your point? Balance doesn't make a game good.

Also, try to have some consistency in your posts. You tell us not to judge Brawl because it hasn't been fully "exploited," yet you make a claim about the balance of the game. If it's unreasonable for us to claim that Brawl is a poor game for competition because Brawl is new, it's equally unreasonable for you to claim that Brawl is a balanced game for competition.