"Dragonic Reverse" -- Yoshi Can Wavedash!

[Chaco]

Yeah I'd say about that.

I've got a new method it's so easy but has some flaws I need to work out, mainly the shielding factor.

 

[bigman40]

I use a Wiichuck, and I've tried both tap Z A and Z Z A to DR... (Z is equivalent to L on the GC controller). Neither of them gives me double jump rings. And also, Karamity's DR's look about average length... half the length of the FD diamond, right?

Yeah. I think he gets just a tad more, but it's just seeing the DJ rings. I'm wondering how different it is when you don't get them.

So you're saying you get more slide out of using XXA? I've always used XXA with tap to jump off. Anything I can do to help?

If there's anything you noticed that's not mentioned, then noting it will help. Also, I'd like to see some of your vids of you DRing. Do you DR alot? If so, how successful are you while doing it?

I've got a new method it's so easy but has some flaws I need to work out, mainly the shielding factor.

Pray tell your new method. I'd like to hear any options.

 

[Chaco]

I made an observation...XXA method does get more distance, I measured it.

And the method has one bug so I'm changing the controls a tad differently. So I'll post it soon, when it is like 100%.

 

[Chaco]

DP yeah I know.

You might want to mess around with this BigMan. Here are the controls, L and R set to jump, X and Y set to shield. Tap Jump off.

You get the DJ rings with this, but it is pretty hard to DR with.

I also tried R+Z, but that doesn't work.

 

[_Ubemaya_]

So I don't get what's so special about X and Y. Why wouldn't it work if L or R or Z was set to jump?

 

[bigman40]

DP yeah I know.

You might want to mess around with this BigMan. Here are the controls, L and R set to jump, X and Y set to shield. Tap Jump off.

You get the DJ rings with this, but it is pretty hard to DR with.

I also tried R+Z, but that doesn't work.

Eww......those controls.....

So I don't get what's so special about X and Y. Why wouldn't it work if L or R or Z was set to jump?

Idk what to tell you right now. It's just something that I've wanted to figure out. I've only been able to duplicate Karamity's DR using the buttons I've said. Everything else seems to only work without having the DJ rings show up.

 

[Chaco]

Yeah the controls are bizarre Bigman, but I only said them because they duplicate the rings.

And on your second half, it adds distance coming back, watch Karamity's approach DR's.

 

[bigman40]

wtf? when did this get stickied? O_o

 

[Chaco]

We gt stickied....no one will look at it anymore... XD

 

[Blistering Speed]

Zomg, I refreshed the page and this had jumped to stickies!11 Since when do mods sticky a topic on an AT, although admittedly an awesome one.

 

[bigman40]

Zomg, I refreshed the page and this had jumped to stickies!11 Since when do mods sticky a topic on an AT, although admittedly an awesome one.

Not only did they sticky this, but the Matchup thread got stickied too. Also, a thread got closed on the Yoshi boards! This is madness!

 

[Chaco]

We've been modded!

 

[DstyCube]

Not like this even needed to get stickied lol, it always gets bumped every day lol.

 

[Chaco]

New day...bumpage

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Yay, my second sticky. =P

 

[Chaco]

lawl. I explained this to people and they think Yoshi has an awesome tech now. =d

 

[Scala]

I hunted down samuraipanda and gave him a list of **** that needed to be done to the yoshi boards, the E3 discussion thread also got unstickied, and the bull**** "new technique" thread got locked.

Anyways, I've been considering switching my controls to make R = jump, will I be able to DR with RXA-Cstick? I don't have a wii to learn DR on at the moment....

 

[bigman40]

Yeah. but it'll be hard (I'm a lefty)

10correctanswers

 

[Scala]

OK, I really, REALLY don't want to change L to jump since that's the button I use for shields, and I absolutely hate tap-jump so it looks like I'm going to be using XXA or some variant

 

[SOVAman]

I like tap jump off and I use R and I hate the L button so I don't know what to do.

 

[Shiri]

Lil'B, using L in your situation is *PERFECT*.

Just take like 5 minutes a day using L specifically to DR.

The only problem I have with this is that egg camping and recovery tricksies become infinitely harder, so I haven't found a way to reconcile these two issues yet.

 

[SOVAman]

Lil'B, using L in your situation is *PERFECT*.

Just take like 5 minutes a day using L specifically to DR.

The only problem I have with this is that egg camping and recovery tricksies become infinitely harder, so I haven't found a way to reconcile these two issues yet.

I will try to use L but there is no way I'm turning tap jump on because it makes recovering harder.

 

[peeup]

So, I can get the jumpy-cancelly-thingy so I don't leave the ground, but how do you slide? do you just have the analog stick tilted while you do the technique?

 

[Bwett]

So, I can get the jumpy-cancelly-thingy so I don't leave the ground, but how do you slide? do you just have the analog stick tilted while you do the technique?

The "slide" only comes from turning around while doing DR and then doing a stutter smash in the opposite direction.

 

[Gindler]

So, I refuse to put tap jump on mostly due to screwing up yoshi's recovery and the only Uair you can do is a rising Uair with it on (I hate accidentally double jumping "/)

However, trying DR I actually did it with the tap jump on and I was wondering if there's another easier way without the tap jump on? The L for jump is a bit awkward, I could always work on it but if there's an easier way, i'd go for it.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

you could try setting A or B to jump and C-stick to replace that function >.<

 

[Chaco]

C-stick is a primary cancel though. Bsticking with Yoshi isn't exactly a great idea.

 

[bigman40]

I'll find another way. I've been going back to the GC lately, so I'm messing around with all the controls.

 

[bigman40]

DP cuz mods don't mod here XD

Gindler, I'd have to ask if your thumb can push the same buttons really fast. If so, then I'd say use the X X A or Y Y A method.
If you can't do that, then I'd have to say use L for jump (still have to put them in fast). Then, we'd be getting into some crazier methods (Z/R/Cstick/etc. as jump). I think that everyone would be able to do Y Y A or X X A after practicing to speed your thumb up (I had to practice it for a good while), but it would take the most time in getting it consistent.

And in other news, I've went back to the GC. XD

 

[Depster]

meh, CC is working just fine for me. I'm starting to get more consistent

 

[Scala]

DP cuz mods don't mod here XD

Gindler, I'd have to ask if your thumb can push the same buttons really fast. If so, then I'd say use the X X A or Y Y A method.
If you can't do that, then I'd have to say use L for jump (still have to put them in fast). Then, we'd be getting into some crazier methods (Z/R/Cstick/etc. as jump). I think that everyone would be able to do Y Y A or X X A after practicing to speed your thumb up (I had to practice it for a good while), but it would take the most time in getting it consistent.

And in other news, I've went back to the GC. XD

Do you think RXA is a viable option?

 

[bigman40]

Do you think RXA is a viable option?

hm.....I'm not sure. I suck at timing the shield buttons to unclick when I need to push the X and A. It's possible though.

 

[Scala]

oh the shoulder needs to be unclicked for it to work?? LAME

 

[bigman40]

oh the shoulder needs to be unclicked for it to work?? LAME

Well, if you do R first, you have to click it and let it go before you push X. Which sucks cause if the two jump buttons are pushed at the same time (not including tap jump), then the game thinks it's one jump.

 

[GoForkUrself]

Use Z for jump. I've been doing that for Ganon's Thunderstorming so I can have more movement while I do it. You can always set grab to Y/X(the one you don't use to jump).

 

[Opfer]

Alright. I figured out something that Karamity does that I'm probably sure most others don't. If you watch Karamity DR, you can see DJ rings form. From most of us (that I've watched in matches), we've done it to where it'll stop Yoshi from getting off the ground.

Are you sure those are DJ rings? Yoshi will also generate rings on every landing animation (they are larger when landing a fast-fall), and I find them very hard to distinguish from DJ rings, so maybe it's just the landing rings? You also said you had a configuration that didn't generate any rings at all. I haven't been able to reproduce this, it'd be cool if you could give a description on how to do that.

I've went back to the GC today and tested this. I've gotten the same thing using X X A, and Y Y A. I've been able to do the same thing as the DR in my tutorial, BUT I can also DR backwards without turning. I think this is the only way possible. I know that if you do your DJ and an aerial at nearly the exact same time, the DJ won't turn (anyone done this before? And I'm not just talking with the DR only). If I have enough people, I'll try to make a quick video that allows you to listen to the timing of the Karamity's DR, then I'll probably try to compare it to the other way.

I can confirm that there is a short timespan after the reversed DJ during which you can cancel the turnaround with an aerial. However, I do not think this has anything to do with the turnaround that can happen when doing the backwards sliding DR. After doing some testing with 1/4 speed, it appears as if there are two mechanics involved:

1. Pressing "back" on the control stick too soon before pressing "jump" for the first time will turn Yoshi around instantly.
2. Releasing "back" too late so that a "turnaround" or "dash-turnaround" is buffered and executed upon landing.

The first one is easily avoided, however the second one is really tricky. The timing for the DR is somewhat flexible (meaning you have a little room for error when doing the inputs), and from what I've observed, with the fastest timing possible ("jump"-"jump"-"attack" as fast as possible), it is not possible to release "back" soon enough to not buffer a "turnaround" but still late enough to get a slide. However, if you press "jump"-"jump" as fast as possible, release "back", then wait a bit before pressing "attack", you can slide backwards without turning around. So if you want to slide backwards without turning around, your best bet is probably tilting the stick only during the "jump"-"jump", and trying to delay the "attack" as much as possible.

So my theory is that when using Y-Y-A, you usually don't press the buttons fast enough to force the buffering of a "turnaround", while with other configurations like Y-L-A I can imagine that happening very well.

Now, does that make any sense to you people?

On another note, I've gone through the entire thread and I've seen various people switch through all sorts of controllers and control-schemes, as well as anouncing to post a better way of doing it soon. So my question is: What's considered the "best" method so far (tap jump off)?

 

[Opfer]

Okay, screw my previous post.

I think I've just figured out why DR even works in the first place: All of Yoshi's aerials make him drop just a little bit. It can be seen best on 1/4 speed on the NAir and FAir. This little bit, in addition to the downwards movement of his double jump allows him to land.

Now, this leads to some interesting facts: Scatz was right about the fact that some DRs generate DJ rings and some don't. There are two ways of doing a DR:

1. "jump"-"jump"-delay-"attack": When "jump"-"jump" is done really quick, the DJ starts very low (so low that there aren't even any DJ rings), leaving enough room for a little delay before "attack".
2. "jump"-delay-"jump"-"attack": Here the DJ starts higher, leading to visible DJ rings. "attack" needs to happens very quickly after the second "jump" in order to make up for the increased height.

The input mystery isn't mysterious anymore now either, Y-Y-A will pretty much always lead to the second way since you can't press Y twice that fast, while it's no problem to press A right after Y by rolling your thumb over the two buttons. Tap-Jump and other methods on the other hand allow for very quick "jump"-"jump" sequences, so that the first mechanism is used here.

Now, I can imagine the second mechanism yielding more slide since you jump higher/farther, while the first one might be slightly quicker. I still don't think it's possible to use the DJ turnaround when doing it the second way (it'll probably always be cancelled by the aerial, see post above for explanation).

I haven't done any further testing on the backwards sliding DR without turnaround when using the second mechanism, because it's so hard to reproduce, but I think the points stated in the previous post should still be valid for the first way.

I hope my observations have led me to the right conclusions here, but I think it makes sense now. If someone could mess around with this and tell me if they agree, it'd be much appreciated. If this information is considered correct, I guess I could write a guide or something that contains all there is to know about DR.

Also, I want a debug mode like there was for Melee. Right. Now.

 

[bigman40]

You are right about the 2 ways to DRing. I was wondering if anyone messed around to see that.

And yes. A brawl debug menu would be my happy day.

 

[Chaco]

I definitely do method two....

 

[yostuffstank]

I've tried this technique and the timing is SUPER tight. The best I have done so far is 3 in a row. Is there anyone that can do this technique off the fly and smoothly, because I am thinking the difficulty of pulling this off far outweighs the reward of the technique. Also, in my experience, tap jump being on is a big disadvantage for Yoshi and this technique requires tap jump to be on.

P.S. I moved from Yoshi to PT but I still got love for my *** Yoshi; he is at least within my top 3.