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Dr. Mario

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Robert of Normandy

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So, people complain on how Doc's nothing more than "just another Mario", I try to change that, and people complain that "he should be the same".

Wut. -_-
"He shouldn't return because he's the same, but if he does return, he should be the same."
As you said before, people who want Doc to be playable are people who love his playstyle, not people who want representation for Doctor Mario. If he does return, he should stay true to that playstyle.

And his specials being the same that doesn't mean some of his his normals can't change, so there's room for change there. His F-Air, U-air, Dash attack, and U-smash should stay the same, but maybe something can be done to the rest of his attacks to set him further apart from Mario.
 
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But then that would ruin his playstyle if he's not exactly the same. :troll:
 

Robert of Normandy

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But then that would ruin his playstyle if he's not exactly the same. :troll:
Not necessarily. If the moves that are an important part of his playstyle are still there, then the ones that aren't as important can be scrapped or changed to fit his playstyle better.
 
D

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Likewise, the only Special I see important to Dr. Mario is the Megavitamin.

I mean sure, the Super Sheet is good for "wrecking space furries" and reflecting projectiles, but how important is that really in the long run? When are you really going to be given the opportunities to use it efficiently in his playstyle? From my point of view as a Dr. Mario player, the only reason to use the Super Sheet as it's intended purpose is if you deliberately wait until a projectile comes your way and if your opponent is stupid enough to use said projectile despite the reflecting and not smart enough to get out of the line of fire if they do use it.

The Super Jump Punch is rather pathetic compared to Mario's, and unlike Mario, he can't use his Super Sheet to assist in recovery.

With Dr. Tornado, who's to say it can't be made into his Down Air like Mario's was? While still having it's own flair, of course.
 

Pichu4SSB4

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I'd rather have the cyclone attack return to the Down Special input and have the good old gimpin' Dair back. Hopefully Fludd is not being reconsindered for reg. Mario.
 

ZaXXoR

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I'd much rather keep the cape... I love that ****, reverse-caped bob ombs from peach are the best, I actually won a close match with my roommate both at 1 stock like that

Also when Jiggs misses a rest, it's cape-town, i forget how many exactly but im pretty sure you can squeeze 5 capes in if your close enough, thats a good amount of damage
 
D

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Sonic the Fighters HD gave me an idea.

How about to select Doc, you have to hover over Mario's select box, and press the Start button to switch between regular ol' Mario and Doc? (This is before actually selecting him).
STFHD did this with Metal Sonic, Honey, and Eggman, who were not originally playable in the game, by making them selectable by pressing the Start button over Sonic (Metal), Amy (Honey), and Bean (Eggman).
 

Frostwraith

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Sonic the Fighters HD gave me an idea.

How about to select Doc, you have to hover over Mario's select box, and press the Start button to switch between regular ol' Mario and Doc? (This is before actually selecting him).
STFHD did this with Metal Sonic, Honey, and Eggman, who were not originally playable in the game, by making them selectable by pressing the Start button over Sonic (Metal), Amy (Honey), and Bean (Eggman).
interesting idea...

maybe do this with Link and Young/Toon Link as well... Samus and Dark Samus, Pit and Dark Pit also come to my mind...

and also C. Falcon and Ganondorf! :troll:
 

Robert of Normandy

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Sonic the Fighters HD gave me an idea.

How about to select Doc, you have to hover over Mario's select box, and press the Start button to switch between regular ol' Mario and Doc? (This is before actually selecting him).
STFHD did this with Metal Sonic, Honey, and Eggman, who were not originally playable in the game, by making them selectable by pressing the Start button over Sonic (Metal), Amy (Honey), and Bean (Eggman).
This is exactly what an EX-mode is, and it's what I've been suggesting for a while now.
 

Moon Monkey

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I would prefer Doc becoming one of mario's alt costumes

:phone:
 
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I would prefer Doc becoming one of mario's alt costumes

:phone:
Real Doc fans would want to play as Doc with his playstyle differences from regular Mario, not simply play as Mario in a lab coat with mere aesthetic differences.
 

FlareHabanero

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I actually did like Dr. Mario for the doctor aesthetic more so then the gameplay, because I did find it ironic that a doctor would be the one causing the pain instead of normally healing them. You know Super Smash Bros. isn't a child friendly game where even the doctors are out for blood.

But I still don't like the idea of Dr. Mario as a separate character though, since it would be a waste of space.
 

FalKoopa

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If Doc returns as playable, they should make him grab with his stethoscope. And a final smash of putting megavitamins on opponents' heads. :rotfl:
 

SmashChu

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I think Dr. Mario is fine. I mean, his model is Mario, so there is little extra work. And he was a character at one point in time. Besides, why try and make him something like a costume when you do a little more for a full blown character.

A few more unique moves might not hurt either.
 

ChronoBound

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I personally would not mind Dr. Mario coming back either.

Here is a de-cloned moveset I made for Dr. Mario a few years ago:

Dr. Mario in Melee was like Mario with a little extra power and less speed (however, according to people who mained Doc, he plays completely different than regular Mario at high levels of play). Obviously, I want Doc to differ more from Mario than he did in Melee. I would plan for Doc to be much more powerful than he was in Melee, as well as slower. Doc also has a new, unique moveset this time around which makes him more of his own character than a character with some stat tweaks. Doc also, while some may regard as being better than Mario judging from how I already described him, does have some faults. He is about as slow as Wolf is in Brawl, and his recovery is a bit worse than regular Mario’s. Also, some of Doc’s “kill” moves have the chance to backfire on him, and there chance of backfire is determined on how well you are doing in the match (if you are at a low % the chance of the “backfire”-moves backfiring are a bit high, and the probability of these back-firing goes down as Doc’s damage percentage goes up).

Stats:
Speed: 3/5 (Doc is about average when it comes to speed)
Power:4/5 (Doc leans toward being a power character, however, he is no Ike or Ganondorf)
Recovery: 3/5 (Doc’s recovery is only a tad worse than Mario’s)
Weight:3/5 (Doc is slightly more heavy than Mario, however, it is not enough to bump him up to 3.5)

Dr. Mario regular moves:

A: Dr. Mario does a punch
AA: Doc does another punch.
AAA: Doc does his electric palm attack.
Side-A tilt: Doc uses his stethoscope as a whip.
Running-A: Doc does his electric palm attack while running (pretty powerful for a dash move)
Down-tilt A: Doc does the same down-tilt as regular Mario.
Up-tilt A: Doc does the same up-tilt as Luigi.
A-Air: Doc spin in the air (he does not go downward like with Mario and Luig’s d-air he simply spins like if he were doing the Dr. Tornado from Melee).
Backward-Air: Doc whips his stethoscope backward.
Up-Air: Same as Mario and Luigi’s up-air.
Down-air: Doc whips his stethoscope downward (bell part to the stethoscope is a sweet-spot that results in a spike).

Forward-Air: This one of Doc’s backfire moves. This move looks very similar to his foward-air in Melee. Doc pulls out one of those reflex testers (those things that doctors bang on your shins to test your reflexes). The move itself is much more powerful than even his foward-air in Melee! However, at low-percentages, the move itself has a high chance of backfiring. Since this tool is used to test a reflexes, sometimes your opponent will do a counter-attack when you hit them with the reflex-tester. The counter-attack move that your opponent will perform depends on whether your opponent is on the ground or in the air. On the ground, your opponent will perform a fully-charged forward Smash. In the air, your opponent will do either a f-air or a b-air depending on what direction your opponent is facing. As Doc’s damage goes up, the percentage of the counter-attack happening goes down.

Forward-Smash: This again is another one of Doc’s backfire moves. Doc once again uses the reflex tester, however, unlike with the f-air, this move is chargeable (like with all Smash-A attacks) and is thus much more powerful. Doc’s Smash-foward is even more powerful than Ike’s Smash-foward. However, be warned, if you attack with Doc’s Smash foward, regardless of how much you charged it, there is a sizable chance at low damage percentage that your opponent will perform a fully charged foward-Smash attack on you as a reflex reaction, so it is why not to use this move until you are more damaged.


Down-Smash: Doc takes off his stethoscope, and spins around with it (obviously, he will stall with it in his hand while charging). The stethoscope has a sweet-spot at the bell part that does much more damage than if you get it by the tube or ear parts.

Up-Smash: Doc starts charging electricity in his fist, with more and more electricity being gathered with it until his hand looks like a ball of electricity. He jumps up a little bit and does an uppercut with the attack. This attack is powerful, so beware.

For Doc’s grabs. He pulls out the blood-pressure tester thing (you know that device that is used to test your blood pressure that wraps around your arm). This thus gives Doc a tether-recovery ability, something that Mario and Luigi don’t have.

Grab-A: Doc’s squeezes the rubber-part of the device that makes the device feel tighter on your arm.
Forward-Grab: This move is similar to Samus’s forward grab, in appearance.
Backward Grab: Again this is similar to Samus’s backward grab, in appearance.
Down-Grab: Once again this move is like Samu’s down grab, in appearance.
Up-Grab: Doc’s up grab is the same as Mario and Luigi’s.

Dr. Mario special moves:

Regular-B: Magnifying Glass: Doc brings his magnifying glass from the Dr. Mario games to the fight. The magnifying glass is interesting in that it takes time to buildup-power. You need to aim the magnifying glass in a certain spot (it is similar in how Pit aims his bow, only that the versatility is more toward the ground than the air). There will be a beam of light shining from the magnifying glass, this light is harmless as first, but it gradually gains more and more power until it becomes a death ray. This move usefulness in high-level play will be as an edge-guard move, as that while most pros will take the opportunity from stopping Doc from using his magnifying glass become a death ray, however, by shining the glass off stage it does decent knockback to your recovering opponent, but does little damage. Also, the ray from the magnifying glass will bounce off reflective or metallic surfaces, which amplifies its power.

Side-B: Medical Sheet: Doc’s side-B is the same as it was in Melee, however, it works much differently this time. First off, the medical sheet is much longer than in Melee. Secondly, Doc does not wave the blanket horizontally like Mario does, and instead waves it vertically. Third, the sheet does not reflect projectiles anymore and simply deflects them. Also, the real use to this move is that is trips your opponent. After initially whipping out the medical sheet, it lays down on the ground (it is much longer). If you let go of side-b while your opponent is on the sheet, you will pull the sheet from under the feet of your opponent and end up tripping them. You can then use this opportunity to perform a quick Smash attack on them.

Down-B: Megavitamins: What would a Dr. Mario moveset be without his Megavitamins? For the most part, this moves works the same way as it did in Melee, however, it is a bit more powerful this time around and pure color capsules (a capsule that is all red, all blue, or all yellow) does 15% damage.


Up-B: Booster Shot: You can probably guess what this move is going to be judging by the name. Doc pulls out a giant syringe when doing this recovery move (he looks the same as he does in Melee when doing his recovery, only he is holding a large syringe in his hand). This move is a kill move and quite powerful (however, its vertical recovery compared to Mario’s Up-B is less). However, while this move is powerful, it sometimes does random side effects to your opponent both good and bad. Some good side effects your opponent might get would super speed, giant size, invisibility, invincibility, or becoming metal. Some negative side effects include sprouting a flower from their head, tininess, becoming poisoned (your opponent will turn purple and lose more and more damage as time goes on), or becoming confused (your opponent’s controls will be reversed). Needless to say, the “positive side effects” are more likely to occur when your damage % is low, while the “negative” side effects are more likely to occur when Doc has underwent a lot of damage (150%+).

Final Smash: Virus Outbreak: What would be a decloned Dr. Mario moveset without those lovable viruses from his games of his? Dr. Mario pulls out a jar (which contains the viruses). Depending how Dr. Mario opens it (if Dr. Mario drops it after pulling it out then the viruses are going to give your opponents positive side effects, if Doc opens the lid then your opponents are going to get negative side effects). Each virus has a positive and negative side effect. The viruses attack in “clouds” of a whole bunch of them, and the clouds only consist of one or two of the virus colors. They will then chase after your opponents and infect them. The positive side effect for the red virus is increased size, while the negative one is being shrunk. The positive side effect for the blue virus is super speed, while its negative side effect are reversed controls. The positive side effect for the yellow virus is becoming metal, while the negative side effect is becoming poisoned. However, the odds for giving your opponents negative side effects are 3/4, with a 1/4 chance they will get positive side effects. Also, the side effects from these viruses don’t wear off until your opponent is KO’d, which can be both a good thing or a bad thing.

Dr. Mario’s taunts are as followed:
1. Same taunt as in Melee. Doc pulls out a Megavitamin, throws it up in the air, and then catches it.
2. Dr. Mario spins and give the v-sign (this is based off of when he would win a match in Dr. Mario 64).
3. Dr. Mario closes his eyes, strokes his moustache, then smiles, and goes back to his fighting stance.

Victory animations:
Dr. Mario will have the same victory animations as he did in Melee.

Dr. Mario idle animation:
Dr. Mario usually has his arms crossed (this is based off of what he would do in Dr. Mario 64's story mode). Occasionally, he will stroke his chin.

Dr. Mario’s running animation:
Dr. Mario’s running animation is the same as it was in Melee.

Costumes:

Costume 1: Dr. Mario’s suit has a green tint to it, and his “headband” in green, with his tie also being green.
Costume 2: Dr. Mario’s suit has red tint to it, and his “headband” is red, with his tie being black.
Costume 3: Doc’s suit has a tellow tint to it, and his “headband” is yellow, with his tie also being yellow.
Costume 4: Doc’s outfit is black, with his headband being black, and his tie also being black.
Costume 5: Doc’s outfit is black, with his headband being black, and his tie is red, but he wears sunglasses.

Kirby Hat: Kirby’s Dr. Mario hat is the same as it was in Melee, Kirby wears the Dr. Mario headband, however, he now does the magnifying glass attack as opposed to the Megavitamins.

Dr. Mario-Snake Codec Conversation:

Snake: Otacon, why is Mario wearing a docor’s outfit.
Otacon: That’s Dr. Mario Snake. He is an excellent doctor that he is known for his virus busting prowess and curing power of his Megavitamins.
Snake: Hold on! So are Dr. Mario and Mario two different people or are they the same person?!
Otacon: Um, I am not really sure. There’s not much information on this guy. However, Mario has had a lot of careers over the years, including golfer, referee, chef.... (Snake cuts him off)
Snake: SO WILL I HAVE TO FIGHT GOLFER MARIO, REFEREE MARIO, AND CHEF MARIO TOO!
Otacon: Fortunately, Dr. Mario and Mario are the only Mario’s you will have to fight, or at least that I am aware of.
Snake: Good. Oh, and one more thing, is Dr. Mario a chiropractor? Cause my back has been killing me lately (this MGS4 Snake, AKA, old man Snake).
Otacon: I don’t think so.
Snake: Drats.
End of codec.

End of Dr. Mario moveset.
 
D

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Funny thing about Doc.
According to Miyamoto, while the Mario series doesn't have a set canon, the Dr. Mario series are completely non-canon. (This is the only series mentioned to be non-canon thus far)
So let that sink in; a non-canon Mario character got into Smash. :awesome:
 

SmashChu

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I will say I don't think Doc should change much. Maybe a few moves here and there and stat changes, but him being similar to Mario is not a big deal. I think the big thing is making him feel different. A greater emphasis on attack strength and making him slower would work.
 

#HBC | Joker

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Nah screw Doc. Just make regular Mario not suck and all will be good. Doc should just be a costume, if anything. All the good stuff about Doc had nothing to do with him actually being a doctor. He was just a different looking Mario who happened to have better stats for his identical moves.
 

SmashChu

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Nah screw Doc. Just make regular Mario not suck and all will be good. Doc should just be a costume, if anything. All the good stuff about Doc had nothing to do with him actually being a doctor. He was just a different looking Mario who happened to have better stats for his identical moves.
The whole "He should be a costume," doesn't make sense. He was already a character in Melee. Not to mention that if you do make the costume you might as well change some moves and have an extra character. It wont be a lot more work and it beefs up the roster. Dr. Mario as a character makes so much more sense.
 

FlareHabanero

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Dr. Mario as a character doesn't really make sense at this point. Filling a spot that could of been used for something more worthwhile is not exactly a bright idea.

You can argue that he was a character in Super Smash Bros. Melee, but Dr. Mario along with the other clones were not even planned from the beginning of development and were last minute additions to pad out the roster. Though unlike Roy, Dr. Mario lacks a strong cult following to merit a second chance.
 

#HBC | Joker

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The whole "He should be a costume," doesn't make sense. He was already a character in Melee. Not to mention that if you do make the costume you might as well change some moves and have an extra character. It wont be a lot more work and it beefs up the roster. Dr. Mario as a character makes so much more sense.
Except that Doc, as a character, is an incredibly stupid idea. The only reason he's not a joke character is because he's actually better than regular Mario in melee. There's nothing that legitimizes him as a separate character, other than his stats being different from trajectories and knockback and such. He shouldn't be taking up space on the roster, unless they actually got creative with him and gave him a new moveset.

Newer characters are definitely a higher priority.
 

Aipom

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It makes me wonder how far into development Dr. Mario was for Brawl
 

SmashChu

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Dr. Mario as a character doesn't really make sense at this point. Filling a spot that could of been used for something more worthwhile is not exactly a bright idea.
If he is going to be a costume already, how is turning him into a character going to be a problem. You already have the model. He not going to take another characters spot. Just add too it.

Also, Sakurai has said he would not do him as a costume. This was back in the Melee journal I believe.

There's nothing that legitimizes him as a separate character
Except for, I don't know, he's been in the game before.
 

Diddy Kong

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It makes me wonder how far into development Dr. Mario was for Brawl
Might have been supposed to be a last minute clone addtion, as they already pretty much knew how much time he could consume in making. Sakurai said before that with the time he took delevoping the 6 Melee clones, he could use that time to create King DeDeDe. So, Dr.Mario logically would take 1/6th the effort of a regular character.

But more popular and unique characters as Mewtwo and Roy would take priority (don't know how much time Mewtwo would cost though). And even then, Roy would probably take priority over Dr.Mario as a last minute addition clone.
 

FlareHabanero

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Sakurai said before that with the time he took developing the 6 Melee clones, he could use that time to create King Dedede.
...That still burns a hole in my medulla oblongata to this day. Instead of glories King Dedede, we get the "gems" Pichu and Dr. Mario because "people would be upset with the small number".

There is a reason why quality over quantity exists, which kinda showed when people were upset over the clones then and now.
 
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People will ***** no matter what.
In this case, it was "There's only 8 new characters!" vs. "Less than half of these new characters are similar to another character!".
Sakurai chose the better route in the long run. People will always want more. While "quality over quantity" exists, quantity always wins out in the long run.

And you can't tell me that characters like Pichu and Dr. Mario really are a big problem. They don't do anything negative to Melee; they're just there. And without them, people would have had to wait until Brawl for Ganondorf if he were to get added to Smash at all.
And there's no guarantee that he'd have been any better than he is in Brawl now.
 

ZeldaMaster

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I think that if Dr. Mario IS to return, he should be a costume change for Mario, mainly because he IS Mario.
 

Diddy Kong

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Ganondorf was actually the last character to be added, and Wario was considered to be the Mario clone instead. Am actually pretty grateful for getting Ganondorf. And funny thing is that Pichu made Sakurai look back to add in clone characters. Out of all clones, he and Young Link where one of the first to be considered.

:phone:
 

~ Valkyrie ~

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People will ***** no matter what.
In this case, it was "There's only 8 new characters!" vs. "Less than half of these new characters are similar to another character!".
Sakurai chose the better route in the long run. People will always want more. While "quality over quantity" exists, quantity always wins out in the long run.
Ya keep calling it better route while many people around here (and even back when Melee was released) had disagreed. And still do even today as I can see around here.

Along with this, there's the fact that Brawl didn't have as much clones as Melee did. It shows that Sakurai might have realised it's not necessary to pad in the roster with clones.And guess what, Brawl's roster was more well-received than Melee's.

Which is why I think Doc is actually unnecessary to be returned back. He's no popularly demanded fella like Roy, hasn't been very recurring nowadays (A Wiiware game?) and is just the same Mario with moderate modifications. Sakurai could just go with Project M's route and give all Doc's great attributes to Mario to make him one of the most versatile and even if most powerful characters in Smash Bros ever. (And maybe then give out a Doc-costume.) I don't think people would miss Doc then.
 
D

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Ya keep calling it better route while many people around here (and even back when Melee was released) had disagreed. And still do even today as I can see around here.
It was the better route in the long run. As I said, people will ***** no matter what. However, 6 clones vs. 1 non-clone, the answer is obvious and people are too whiny to see it.
And again, Ganondorf. Which rage would be worse? If he was a clone of Falcon, or if he wasn't in the game at all?

Along with this, there's the fact that Brawl didn't have as much clones as Melee did. It shows that Sakurai might have realised it's not necessary to pad in the roster with clones.And guess what, Brawl's roster was more well-received than Melee's.
Brawl's Roster also included more fan-supported characters like Wario, Diddy, Sonic, King Dedede, etc. Not a fair comparison when out of Melee's non-cloned 7 Newcomers, we had one that no one outside Japan knew (Marth), and two out of the blue characters hardly ANYONE remembered (Ice Climbers and Mr. Game & Watch), as well as one that was heavily overshadowed in support by another character that didn't make it outside of being a clone (Zelda/Sheik).
Also, Brawl had more time for development to add more characters in comparison to Melee.

Also, you fail to acknowledge that there are still semi-clones that get as much flak as the clones. Melee had the 6 clones, Brawl has:
1. Ganondorf
2. Falco
3. Lucas
4. Toon Link
5. Wolf

Who all get as much flak (though some like Wolf get less than others). Luigi doesn't get flak, so he's not on the list.
And then, there were more PLANNED clones/semi-clones
1. Roy
2. Toon Zelda/"Toon Sheik"
3. Dixie Kong (tag-team; this heavily implies she was to be similar)
And if pra_mai meant them, 4. Plusle and Minun (Pichu replacement)

Which is why I think Doc is actually unnecessary to be returned back. He's no popularly demanded fella like Roy, hasn't been very recurring nowadays (A Wiiware game?) and is just the same Mario with moderate modifications. Sakurai could just go with Project M's route and give all Doc's great attributes to Mario to make him one of the most versatile and even if most powerful characters in Smash Bros ever. (And maybe then give out a Doc-costume.) I don't think people would miss Doc then.
I lol at you claiming that WiiWare and DSiWare counts as being less "relevant" than an OPTIONAL DLC for a game that Roy doesn't even STAR in. I mean really? Either both are "relevant" or neither are.

As for the whole "just give Mario Doc's properties", do you not understand that Mario is meant to be the Jack of All Stats? He's not meant to be "one of the most versatile and even if most powerful characters in Smash Bros. ever"; He's meant to be that one character with no great strengths or glaring weaknesses.
 

~ Valkyrie ~

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It was the better route in the long run. As I said, people will ***** no matter what. However, 6 clones vs. 1 non-clone, the answer is obvious and people are too whiny to see it.
And again, Ganondorf. Which rage would be worse? If he was a clone of Falcon, or if he wasn't in the game at all?
We could have lived without clones just as easily as we had to live with them despite demanding more characters. Just as that. None was happy getting clones either anyway. So I think you're exaggarating the idea of people whining even more about getting 1 non-clone over 6 clones.

About Ganondorf, despite the rage induced for not including him, he might have even got lucky like Wario in Melee-development (Not been necessarily put into a clone-character spot and given his own moveset instead, something people wish for even today) in Brawl. At least chances for that would have been more likely because people would have demanded him even more if he wasn't in Melee.

Brawl's Roster also included more fan-supported characters like Wario, Diddy, Sonic, King Dedede, etc. Not a fair comparison when out of Melee's non-cloned 7 Newcomers, we had one that no one outside Japan knew (Marth), and two out of the blue characters hardly ANYONE remembered (Ice Climbers and Mr. Game & Watch), as well as one that was heavily overshadowed in support by another character that didn't make it outside of being a clone (Zelda/Sheik).
Also, Brawl had more time for development to add more characters in comparison to Melee.
I guess this means then clones were really there just to pad up the roster then in Melee. Which means that they're not necessary to be added over fan-favourite character inclusions.

Also, you fail to acknowledge that there are still semi-clones that get as much flak as the clones. Melee had the 6 clones, Brawl has:
1. Ganondorf
2. Falco
3. Lucas
4. Toon Link
5. Wolf

Who all get as much flak (though some like Wolf get less than others). Luigi doesn't get flak, so he's not on the list.
Wolf and to a lesser extent, Lucas are debatable in this (especially Wolf who's rest of the moveset is made up aside from specials and Final Smash). Everyone being semi-cloned though is some direction to better (having less clones). Except Ganondorf who sucks even more in Brawl. Just give him his own moveset already. IMPROVE HIM.


And then, there were more PLANNED clones/semi-clones
1. Roy
2. Toon Zelda/"Toon Sheik"
3. Dixie Kong (tag-team; this heavily implies she was to be similar)
And if pra_mai meant them, 4. Plusle and Minun (Pichu replacement)
But they weren't added. It could just show that these clones are unnecessary (and seeing how much characters Brawl had at the end, it was for the best.). So why we necessary need Doc if he was to be made into a costume (or more like "slot or nothing" if considered as a character.)


I lol at you claiming that WiiWare and DSiWare counts as being less "relevant" than an OPTIONAL DLC for a game that Roy doesn't even STAR in. I mean really? Either both are "relevant" or neither are.
Roy's outcry though is pretty much bigger compared to Doc's. Wasn't his return well-received around the world anyway? I dunno how Doc would compare to this, yet even get so much support compared to Roy. In fact, it suprised me that Roy's so supported despite being a clone before.

Doc again...

As for the whole "just give Mario Doc's properties", do you not understand that Mario is meant to be the Jack of All Stats? He's not meant to be "one of the most versatile and even if most powerful characters in Smash Bros. ever"; He's meant to be that one character with no great strengths or glaring weaknesses.
So then we need Mario himself but in a doctor's uniform to overshadow Mario, and pretty much defeat the purpose of what the regular Mario's supposed to be like in Smash Bros? Doc's just another alter ego of Mario, which seems to pretty much defeat your argument here. If they can make Mario be much better than he's at the moment in Smash by making him Doc, then just give Mario his attributes. He wouldn't be totally different from his last incarnations anyway. He'd be just more kickass and maybe less uninteresting to play as compared to other characters due him being jack of all stats. Unless he's meant to be unfavoured in Smash Bros-communities.
 

FlareHabanero

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The lack of any strengths is the reason why Mario is so overlooked in Super SSmash Bros. and many others games, so having some actual strengths would be a good thing.
 
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We could have lived without clones just as easily as we had to live with them despite demanding more characters. Just as that. None was happy getting clones either anyway. So I think you're exaggarating the idea of people whining even more about getting 1 non-clone over 6 clones.
If anyone's exaggerating, it's you. You are acting as though everyone finds clones to be the spawn of Satan, and that people would be infinitely super happy if they didn't exist, when in reality, there are also people in the word that either don't give a flying one about characters being clones or not, and ones that rather enjoyed the clones for what they were. However, the most vocal people tend to be the ones people hear most. It's just like the Geno fanbase, making themselves seem more large than they really were.

About Ganondorf, despite the rage induced for not including him, he might have even got lucky like Wario in Melee-development (Not been necessarily put into a clone-character spot and given his own moveset instead, something people wish for even today) in Brawl. At least chances for that would have been more likely because people would have demanded him even more if he wasn't in Melee.
There is no guarantee that Ganondorf would have been added in Brawl nor any guarantee he would have been completely unique.
Think about it; he was requested, and had enough to work with to be unique in Melee's time, and yet Ganondorf for all he was "worth" to Sakurai was only feasible as a last-minute clone.
Granted, I'm not saying that he wouldn't have been added or wouldn't have been unique, but it's food for thought.



I guess this means then clones were really there just to pad up the roster then in Melee. Which means that they're not necessary to be added over fan-favourite character inclusions.
This is news to you? Sakurai flat out said that they were added to beef up the Roster with little time to do so.
However, you are missing the big picture.
Just because a clone gets in, doesn't mean that they were added OVER another character (save for the 6 clones vs. Dedede, but Sakurai was already apprehenisve about including Dedede due to him wanting to be modest with his own series).
For example, let's say Dark Samus gets in as a clone of Samus and Ridley is not added because Sakurai has deemed him not worth the "best efforts" he said would be needed to make him work.
Dark Samus did not get in at Ridley's expense despite being in the game while he's not.
Since you're trying to bring up Doc in this (despite me saying that he should be an alternate selection to Mario to shut people like you up), here's another example:
Dr. Mario returns, while there is no Mario Newcomer. Dr. Mario didn't get in at their expense. Sakurai clearly wanted Doc to come back for whatever reason, and didn't want the others for whatever reason (maybe Toad made more sense as Peach's shield, maybe Waluigi was perfect as an Assist, maybe Bowser Jr. was not interesting enough to him, whatever).



Wolf and to a lesser extent, Lucas are debatable in this (especially Wolf who's rest of the moveset is made up aside from specials and Final Smash). Everyone being semi-cloned though is some direction to better (having less clones). Except Ganondorf who sucks even more in Brawl. Just give him his own moveset already. IMPROVE HIM.
Here we go again with the "having less clones is better" crap. This really seems to be a biased issue of yours that they are horrible, despite their being clones from the very beginning of Smash and plenty of other fighting games.

And aside from that, if being changed really made them better, why is Project M so keen on restoring Falco's clone status? Why instead of changing Ganondorf to make him better AND different, they for the most part restore his Melee clone status with few non-Falcon moves? If they can make Lucario and Wario different from their Brawl moves while being "better", why couldn't they have done the same for the ex-Melee Clones?




But they weren't added. It could just show that these clones are unnecessary (and seeing how much characters Brawl had at the end, it was for the best.). So why we necessary need Doc if he was to be made into a costume (or more like "slot or nothing" if considered as a character.)
It shows nothing other than they didn't get in. Oops, Mewtwo didn't get in either. Guess he is unnecessary.
We don't "necessarily need" anyone that isn't in Brawl at this point either.




Roy's outcry though is pretty much bigger compared to Doc's. Wasn't his return well-received around the world anyway? I dunno how Doc would compare to this, yet even get so much support compared to Roy. In fact, it suprised me that Roy's so supported despite being a clone before.

Doc again...
This is irrelevant. We're talking about comparing the relavancy, not "who has more of an outcry". Don't change the subject.
And it surprises you because you have a flawed, biased sense of clones.



So then we need Mario himself but in a doctor's uniform to overshadow Mario, and pretty much defeat the purpose of what the regular Mario's supposed to be like in Smash Bros? Doc's just another alter ego of Mario, which seems to pretty much defeat your argument here. If they can make Mario be much better than he's at the moment in Smash by making him Doc, then just give Mario his attributes. He wouldn't be totally different from his last incarnations anyway. He'd be just more kickass and maybe less uninteresting to play as compared to other characters due him being jack of all stats. Unless he's meant to be unfavoured in Smash Bros-communities.
You are missing the point. The point of Doc isn't to make a better Mario or a worse Mario. It was to offer a different flavor outside the Jack of All-Stats Mario is supposed to be. It just so happens that Doc's flavor was more favorable in competitive standings to where Doc is higher on the Tier List.
For every bonus Doc got, there was an equal drawback.
Doc, while having some more power in his moves and less situational attacks compared to Mario (like the F-Air), he was slower in his moves and had a worse recovery overall (Super Sheet was stronger and longer than Cape, but did not lift him in the air that much).

EDIT: But all this stems from Dr. Mario being "Mario in a labcoat". I've even suggested making Doc a combat medic in his moves or a puzzle based fighter inspired by all of Nintendo's puzzle games including his own, and you still opposed. I pray that you don't support Paper Mario, then. Because not only is he just "Mario made out of paper", he's also completely capable of being a clone JUST. LIKE. DOC.
 

FlareHabanero

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A puzzle based fighter might be more appropriate with a character like Lip or Mallo then Dr.Mario. Not in a "burn in hell clones" type way, but from a prospective of introducing a new series that represents the puzzle genre as a whole.
 

Diddy Kong

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I don't consider Ganondorf, Wolf and Lucas as clones. More like semi-clones. Even Falco falls in this appartment now. Toon Link is more arguable, but they did the physics with him really well to make him stand out from Link a lot. But he's the closest thing to a clone we had in Brawl I feel.

But still, NO WHERE AS CLOSE as Dr.Mario was to Mario in Melee. Which is still why I don't want him back, unless we get another Mario character and he's used to buff up the roster. Lets just say, I'd accept him ONLY if we get other cool characters to make up for him, as Mewtwo and King K.Rool and others.
 

SmashChu

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Ya keep calling it better route while many people around here (and even back when Melee was released) had disagreed. And still do even today as I can see around here.
Not sure how old you were during Melee, but that is not the case at all.

People liked the clones and no one really cared they were similar. Roy, Falco and Young Link were very popular and people liked the addition of Ganondorf (him being Captain Falcon was always mixed). Pichu was the only character that was hated. The other characters were all well liked. Dr. Mario was the next least favorite, but he had his fans like the others. This is why all of the Melee characters except Pichu were planned.

You can't really say that everyone would have liked the alternative more because we can never know what would have happened. I can say that 20 characters was a small roster, even for 2001.

Along with this, there's the fact that Brawl didn't have as much clones as Melee did. It shows that Sakurai might have realised it's not necessary to pad in the roster with clones.And guess what, Brawl's roster was more well-received than Melee's.
The difference was time. Melee was made in 13 months. Brawl was made in 2 years and a quarter.

Which is why I think Doc is actually unnecessary to be returned back. He's no popularly demanded fella like Roy, hasn't been very recurring nowadays (A Wiiware game?) and is just the same Mario with moderate modifications. Sakurai could just go with Project M's route and give all Doc's great attributes to Mario to make him one of the most versatile and even if most powerful characters in Smash Bros ever. (And maybe then give out a Doc-costume.) I don't think people would miss Doc then.
First, relevance doesn't matter. We both know that.

Second, people do like Dr. Mario. He has his supporters, even if they are far fewer than Roy and Mewtwo. I just looked at an PM from Chrono yesterday. He mentioned finding a Smash poll which had Mewtwo, Roy and Dr. Mario on top. People do like these characters.
 

Diddy Kong

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Take back my other post, as I don't even think Lucas and Wolf should count as semi-clones. More like, 1/4th clone or something, as only their specials and some smashes are similar. Dr.Mario doesn't have this potential, and would bring the game down to Melee's level of clone characters again. If it's ONLY him though I might not care but don't want him to start a trend you know... :rolleyes:
 

SmashChu

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A puzzle based fighter might be more appropriate with a character like Lip or Mallo then Dr.Mario. Not in a "burn in hell clones" type way, but from a prospective of introducing a new series that represents the puzzle genre as a whole.
From the Mario thread
Playing Mario more, I actually take back somewhat of what I said in the first idea (about him being weak). he could still be a bit stronger, but he's still a good character. All his moves scale and become more efficient the more damage someone has. His smash moves can kill Lucario at 120, no problem. Some stronger smashes may still help, but it's not a big issue.
Playing Mario, he has a lot of potential though a few problems hold him back. His attack power is not one of them.
 

ChronoBound

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Second, people do like Dr. Mario. He has his supporters, even if they are far fewer than Roy and Mewtwo. I just looked at an PM from Chrono yesterday. He mentioned finding a Smash poll which had Mewtwo, Roy and Dr. Mario on top. People do like these characters.
I am pretty sure the poll you are talking about is some Japanese poll which said, "which cut Melee character do you want to return for Smash 4", of which the results went Roy>Mewtwo>Dr.Mario>(and forgot where Pichu and Young Link went after that).

Dr. Mario has more support as a character than Pichu and Young Link. He has more support than Pichu due to not being a joke character (its sad to see that the concept of a joke character is lost on so many people), and Young Link is not supported due to Toon Link essentially being a more modern design for him with weird body proportions.

I mean compare Pichu coming back:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-wii-u/64958227

Over half of people don't want Pichu back in any form.

Here is what happened with Dr. Mario by comparison:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-wii-u/64958227

Nearly half of people want him back as a costume with no stat changes from regular Mario, while 1/3 basically want him back as his own character (whether with his own slot, as DLC, or a costume with stat changes), while only 17% don't want Doc back in any form.
 
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