Dr. Mario

[Deleted member]

Unless said alter-ego has their own game series said to take place in a seperate canon, the situation cannot be compared.

 

[SmashChu]

I'm not sure why this is an issue. I figure people still have this "No Clones HISSSSSSSSSSSS" mentality. Doc would be easy enough to add, so why not just say "the more the merrier."

 

[Diddy Kong]

As long as we get an unique Mario newcomer, I don't think I'd mind that much. But Inthink Brawl was the end of full clones anyway, and we'll only have characters as 'clones' as Lucas, Wolf and Toon Link. Dr.Mario doesn't cut it for me. And if he makes it, I'd hope for more clones just to make a bigger roster.

 

[Deleted member]

>Implying Dr. Mario will continue to be a full clone.
>Implying Dr. Mario will continue to stay a "Mario" character rather than be the sole character of the seperate canon "Dr. Mario" franchise.

 

[Croph]

I'm glad to see that some people support his inclusion. If not playing Roy, Dr. Mario is my second go-to man (as well as Bowser, believe it or not). I love his overall appearance (because lab coats = sexier) and play style compare to Mario and I really have no beef with clones in the end. I'll be happy if he makes it in as an alt costume. I'd be overjoyed if he makes it in as a playable character, Luigified or with a revamped moveset.

I was playing Melee a couple days ago as Dr. Mario. For one of his victory poses, he pulls out his stethoscope. I had an (unlikely) idea that if the Doc gets in, it would be kinda funny (or creepy) if he has a taunt that makes him pull out his stethoscope and listens to the heart of a character nearby. So you would basically hear their heartbeat. For example, for timid/nervous characters like Lucas, you will hear a faster heartbeat (and Sonic cuz he's a speed demon). For ROB and G&W, you will hear beeping/ticking noises instead. It's just a little bit of an easter egg or something.

 

[FalKoopa]

I want to see viruses as a part of his moveset. Perhaps chucking them like dedede?

 

[Deleted member]

I'm glad to see that some people support his inclusion. If not playing Roy, Dr. Mario is my second go-to man (as well as Bowser, believe it or not). I love his overall appearance (because lab coats = sexier) and play style compare to Mario and I really have no beef with clones in the end. I'll be happy if he makes it in as an alt costume. I'd be overjoyed if he makes it in as a playable character, Luigified or with a revamped moveset.

I was playing Melee a couple days ago as Dr. Mario. For one of his victory poses, he pulls out his stethoscope. I had an (unlikely) idea that if the Doc gets in, it would be kinda funny (or creepy) if he has a taunt that makes him pull out his stethoscope and listens to the heart of a character nearby. So you would basically hear their heartbeat. For example, for timid/nervous characters like Lucas, you will hear a faster heartbeat (and Sonic cuz he's a speed demon). For ROB and G&W, you will hear beeping/ticking noises instead. It's just a little bit of an easter egg or something.

That actually sounds pretty cool.

 

[Croph]

I want to see viruses as a part of his moveset. Perhaps chucking them like dedede?

I had this idea for a FS (though it's mostly a joke) where he releases deadly viruses/bacteria that swarm the players. It makes the player weaker and they turn gaunt or whatever. Idk what happens after that lol.

@Golden Glad you like it. I'm a huge nerd for biology stuff and being a paramedic or nurse interests me as a future career. Perhaps that's why Dr. Mario intrigues me so much, even though he's not the same lol.

 

[Deleted member]

Though the question remains; would Ganondorf have a heartbeat, or is he too evil to have a heart?

 

[Croph]

Haha, I was thinking the same thing actually for the "evil" characters. Perhaps if Ganondorf were to get an X-ray, his heart (if he has one) would be two sizes too small?

 

[Diddy Kong]

>Implying Dr. Mario will continue to be a full clone.
>Implying Dr. Mario will continue to stay a "Mario" character rather than be the sole character of the seperate canon "Dr. Mario" franchise.

>Implying he won't

 

[Deleted member]

You do realize that even if Dr. Mario was 100% like he was in Melee, he STILL wouldn't be a full clone, considering his Back Air, Down Air, and Down Special would be different? Unless you seriously think that Dr. Mario would be given F.L.U.D.D., despite fireballs being too "weird" for him.

 

[Diddy Kong]

>Implying Mario keeps F.L.U.D.D?

Dr.Mario is closest to a full clone. You're just using Mario's small changes in Brawl's moveset will seriously make them consider Dr.Mario? It's much more likely Mario will get Galaxy Spin for Down B. And that's similar enough to not make Dr.Mario's Melee Down B much more unique. Also, Luigi has this excact move.

His Back Air is still the same animation aa Mario, why you even use that is beyond me.

It would've worked for Brawl maybe, -as a far stretch and still he would be the least unique character in Smash- just not this time. Don't expect him.

 

[BluePikmin11]

There's no reason Dr. Mario should return, I shall call this a joke thread.

 

[Deleted member]

>Implying Mario keeps F.L.U.D.D?

Dr.Mario is closest to a full clone. You're just using Mario's small changes in Brawl's moveset will seriously make them consider Dr.Mario? It's much more likely Mario will get Galaxy Spin for Down B. And that's similar enough to not make Dr.Mario's Melee Down B much more unique. Also, Luigi has this excact move.

Falco was pretty much the same as Fox in Melee with some different properties (more in tune with 64 Fox), yet he was given unique moves in Brawl that involve his wings as attacking points and now KICKS his Reflector as a short projectile that reflects others instead of holding it in place. There is no law that states Dr. Mario can't do the same. Especially when there's still things like the viruses to incorporate.
Aside from that, they already DID consider Dr. Mario, I'm not implying anything. Also, there is no indincation either way that Mario will have F.L.U.D.D. replaced, unless you're going you're using the same relevancy bs that you use to support Sheik being removed.

His Back Air is still the same animation aa Mario, why you even use that is beyond me.

No, it isn't. Mario's Back Air changed in Brawl to resemble his Forward Air from 64 (a twizzle kick where he kicks both legs and spins). If Dr. Mario kept his Back Air from Melee, it would be a simple one-legged back kick.

It would've worked for Brawl maybe, -as a far stretch and still he would be the least unique character in Smash- just not this time. Don't expect him.

If Falco can be given changes, so can Dr. Mario. Stop using the moronic "he's Mario" excuse to why it's impossible. (Hint, Pichu had more differences from Pikachu than Falco did for Fox in Melee.)

 

[Diddy Kong]

Falco is a totally different character from Fox. You can better compare Dr.Mario to DK Jr. in this regard. But at least DK Jr. has a different body type and everything. Dr.Mario WILL be the least unique character again if he's on the roster. So that's why I don't think he'll be in.

 

[FalKoopa]

Dr.Mario WILL be the least unique character again if he's on the roster. So that's why I don't think he'll be in.

There are enough ways to make him more unique.

 

[Kirbunny431]

Golden, your dedication to Dr. Mario is like something I've never seen. Did he save one of your family members or something? :imisstrollface:

Anyway, I honestly don't believe that Dr. Mario deserves a spot on the roster. There's the fact that, as a character, and I know this has been said a billion times, he's just Mario in a doctor's outfit. (Ignoring his ingame stats and such.) He's also from an average spinoff series that doesn't really do a whole lot of service to Nintendo. In a game of Nintendo All-Stars, Dr. Mario is one of the lesser All-Stars. (I also think that way about Jiggs, but she's another discussion entirely.)

Would I mind if Doc is in SSB4? A little, but not enough to make a huge deal out of it. (What would I do? Write an angry letter to Sakurai that he wouldn't be able to read anyway? Ha.) I just really hope that he would be more different from Mario than he was in Melee. A Luigified Dr. Mario would be acceptable, but I still believe there are many better choices for a Mario rep, like Junior or Toad.

Then again, there are those black robes. Those practically justify the character in itself. If he gets in but the black robes get cut, I just might have to write that angry letter to Sakurai. :stillmisstrollface:

 

[Deleted member]

Falco is a totally different character from Fox. You can better compare Dr.Mario to DK Jr. in this regard. But at least DK Jr. has a different body type and everything. Dr.Mario WILL be the least unique character again if he's on the roster. So that's why I don't think he'll be in.

Except, that as I keep saying, Dr. Mario is a different Mario from a different canon. How many times must this be repeated before you finally get it? If it's ok for Toon Link to stay, why is it not for Dr. Mario?!

Aside from that, being a "totally different character" means absolute **** for Falco, seeing as there is literally nothing that seperates the two in the StarFox series in terms of capability. Everything Fox can do, Falco can do, and vice versa. There is plenty of things Mario can do that Doc can't, and at the same time, there are things that would make sense for Doc to do, but not for Mario to do.
It's a double standard for Falco to be "allowed" to be different despite having nothing of his own to claim, while Dr. Mario has to be the exact same despite actually having things to work with that make him different.

And so long as Toon Link exists in Smash, Doc will not be the least unique.

There's the fact that, as a character, and I know this has been said a billion times, he's just Mario in a doctor's outfit. (Ignoring his ingame stats and such.)

Why must people constantly have me repeat this point: ACCORDING TO MIYAMOTO, DR. MARIO IS NOT A LEGITIMATE PART OF THE MARIO CANON. HE HAS HIS OWN CANON.
Ergo, Dr. Mario isn't any more Mario than Toon Link (WW) is to Link (TP). If Toon Link is perfectly acceptable for being a "seperate" Link, then the same logic should be applied to Doc. On the contary, if Doc is not acceptable, Toon Link should not be either.

He's also from an average spinoff series that doesn't really do a whole lot of service to Nintendo. In a game of Nintendo All-Stars, Dr. Mario is one of the lesser All-Stars. (I also think that way about Jiggs, but she's another discussion entirely.)

If being the among the most popular puzzle franchises (if not the most) for Nintendo doesn't "do a lot of service", then why should we have Captain Falcon? He's a lesser All-Star who's only merit is that he comes from a popular racing franchise. Why should we have any Mother characters? That series is hardly worthy of "All-Star" status. Why should we have anyone that's not from Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, Kirby, Donkey Kong, Metroid, Animal Crossing, or Fire Emblem? Everything else would be "lesser All-Stars".

 

[Kirbunny431]

Why must people constantly have me repeat this point: ACCORDING TO MIYAMOTO, DR. MARIO IS NOT A LEGITIMATE PART OF THE MARIO CANON. HE HAS HIS OWN CANON.

Dr. Mario is Mario if Mario went to medical school instead of a magical plumbing academy. Do you honestly think that Dr. Mario existing in some alternate universe makes him any less Mario? He's still the mascot that everybody's been seeing since 1981. Same face, same voice, same stache. He is Mario. Just because it's a different canon doesn't give him any more merit. Here we have Mario 1, and here we have Mario 2. A footnote like that is only helpful to someone who wants to make a Mario timeline, so they don't spend ages trying to figure out how Mario could attend medical school and fight viruses while also fighting Bowser, saving the Princess, and cleaning toilets.

Ergo, Dr. Mario isn't any more Mario than Toon Link (WW) is to Link (TP). If Toon Link is perfectly acceptable for being a "seperate" Link, then the same logic should be applied to Doc. On the contary, if Doc is not acceptable, Toon Link should not be either.

I've seen this Toon Link defense used earlier in the thread, so I'm not going to bother trying. (Not now, at least. In a rush and all that.) It's an endless cycle between you and whoever decides to oppose Doc next. I could throw out a bunch of technicalities about how he's really a descendant of the other Links and all that, but I'll admit that's a very poor argument.

If being the among the most popular puzzle franchises (if not the most) for Nintendo doesn't "do a lot of service", then why should we have Captain Falcon? He's a lesser All-Star who's only merit is that he comes from a popular racing franchise. Why should we have any Mother characters? That series is hardly worthy of "All-Star" status. Why should we have anyone that's not from Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, Kirby, Donkey Kong, Metroid, Animal Crossing, or Fire Emblem? Everything else would be "lesser All-Stars".

When was the last time you've seen anybody get hyped up about a new Dr. Mario game? "Man, I hope Retro's new project is a Dr. Mario game! That'd be killer!" That doesn't happen. Very few people would take a Dr. Mario game over an entry in another series. Meanwhile, everyone's pining for new F-Zero, Mother, and Starfox. Those series matter to a great number of fans. They would form a mob and slaughter a small town to have a new game in any of those series. Dr. Mario is important to a much smaller fanbase. Besides, those series are still a lot more important to Nintendo than the spinoff pill puzzle game is.

 

[FalKoopa]

Dr. Mario's position is similar to ROB's position pre-brawl, it seems.

 

[Deleted member]

When was the last time Dr. Mario got a new game in the series? 2009.
How about F-Zero? 2004. And that's a Japan-only tie-in to the anime.
StarFox? 2006 (a remake does not count as a new game).
Mother? 2006. And that's how it will stay.

No effing **** they are going to get more hype, because they've been dormant for much longer without anything new (and in Mother's case, they will keep waiting until the end of time), and they have been hinted at at various points (except Mother, aside from possible ports or remakes of the three games going by what Itoi mentioned). Poor comparison.

Conversely, by your logic, we should cut Yoshi, as hardly anyone was hyping for a new Yoshi title until the Wii U data leak, and even then, Yoshi's new game is not hyped that much by fans because of it being another Yarn game like Kirby's Epic Yarn.
Ice Climber was always an unpopular game, very few people want a sequel, and the Climbers are just heavily irrelevant gimmick characters. Cut them and add in another pair of more popular characters to fill the gimmick, and people won't care. No, seriously, they won't.


As for your first point, having a different canon is everything. Do you not get what that means? It means that the "mascot we've been seeing since 1981" does not EXIST within the universe. Instead, we get his medical counterpart. And likewise, Dr. Mario does not exist within the Mario canon.
So having both of them is not having the same character at all. It's having two identical characters from seperate universes.

And Smash can easily reflect that by severing the ties between the two series (something Brawl started to do, given that Dr. Mario's Chill music is not listed as a Mario song, nor are Dr. Mario stickers listed as Mario stickers, but rather their own set with the Panel de Pon stickers under "Nintendo Puzzle Collection"), and giving Dr. Mario his own symbol as a representative of the "Dr. Mario" franchise rather than another representative of the "Mario" franchise, freeing up a space for someone else like Toad.
Would that not be the best solution? Dr. Mario repping his own thing and not affecting the actual Mario series?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Dr.Mario being Mario from another cannon = Mario in the end. He should, and will play like Mario. And he'll be the least unique character on the roster. I don't want him, and 99% of people agree with me on this.

Also: Toon Link is tons more unique than Dr.Mario ever will be btw :/

 

[FalKoopa]

Dr.Mario being Mario from another cannon = Mario in the end.

Agreed.

He should, and will play like Mario. And he'll be the least unique character on the roster.

No reason why he must be a clone of Mario.

I don't want him,

You are entitled to your opinion.

and 99% of people agree with me on this.

Source?

 

[Kirbunny431]

...All these words...

And Smash can easily reflect that by severing the ties between the two series (something Brawl started to do, given that Dr. Mario's Chill music is not listed as a Mario song, nor are Dr. Mario stickers listed as Mario stickers, but rather their own set with the Panel de Pon stickers under "Nintendo Puzzle Collection"), and giving Dr. Mario his own symbol as a representative of the "Dr. Mario" franchise rather than another representative of the "Mario" franchise, freeing up a space for someone else like Toad.
Would that not be the best solution? Dr. Mario repping his own thing and not affecting the actual Mario series?

I'm going to concede defeat right here, mainly because I find you to be absolutely infuriating and it's starting to become dangerous for my health. (And don't even think about calling in Dr. Mario, because he'll just let me die on the operating table for not wanting him in.) Besides, I just don't have a strong enough spirit to carry on such a debate. So, I'm just going to focus on this one section because I actually sort of agree with it.

I wouldn't mind Dr. Mario being given his own universe. It happened for Yoshi, DK, and Wario (you know, technically), so I suppose it could work again. If Sakurai deems it necessary, let it be so. There are others I would still rather see before him, but I could live with an independent series.

The bolded part would be the ideal outcome if it came down to a compromise between you and me. I wouldn't want Doc taking up a Mario slot that could be used by Junior or Toad, while Doc is still on the roster. Not a bad idea, as long as Doc is big enough to justify his own series icon. (I never realized until now how much stock we all put into those little icons.)

Bottom line is, you've made sort of a believer out of me. Dr. Mario has gone up a notch on my lengthy list. I'm not one to fight a war, but more to carry out a peaceful discussion. I won't be back to oppose Doc, but I may offer moveset suggestions just for fun. I'll just leave my arguments up there in case someone wants to make use of them.

 

[Deleted member]

He should, and will play like Mario. And he'll be the least unique character on the roster.

Unless you can absolutely prove that Dr. Mario will always be like regular Mario, stop saying it as fact. Because it's not. It's only what you THINK is going to happen.
Conversely, I'm not saying that Dr. Mario will have changes if he comes back; just that there are logical options to take. And I actually have statistics to back it up, given that if Dr. Mario was completely unchanged in moveset from Melee to Brawl, he'd already have 3 moves completely different from Mario.
Scream "but Mario will get Galaxy Spin" all you want; that is not a fact either.

Also: Toon Link is tons more unique than Dr.Mario ever will be btw :/

That's like saying Impa will replace Sheik; just more bullcrap that shouldn't be taken seriously.

EDIT: @Kirbunny: Don't be thinking you weren't also being infuriating, because between you, Diddy, the BluePikmin guy, and SpacelySlate on Gamefaqs (in defending Mewtwo, not Doc), I pretty much had to stop myself from telling all of you to go blow your brains out.
But glad to see we can come to an agreement.

 

[Ove]

So if Dr. Mario has three moves that Mario has had in prior games but not in the latest, it doesn't make him a clone?

Seems legit.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Even Luigi had his Back Air changed to match Mario's. What makes you think they wouldn't do this for Dr.Mario?

Impa is a character which should be taken more serious than Dr.Mario at least.

 

[Deleted member]

So if Dr. Mario has three moves that Mario has had in prior games but not in the latest, it doesn't make him a clone?

Seems legit.

You've always had a problem with reading comprehension, so it is not surprising that the point went over your head again.
I never said that having those three moves doesn't make him a clone. I said that having those moves while Mario doesn't is already a difference between the two, meaning other differences aren't as farfetched as Diddy thinks they are.

@Diddy: Because Sakurai intended on Dr. Mario being less athletic due to "lack of exercise", going by his trophy. This is why Dr. Mario doesn't backflip as fast as Mario or as many times. Having a simple back kick instead of a twizzle kick makes perfect sense for someone who isn't nearly as athletic.

And no, Impa should never be taken seriously. Not when you're around.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Is Dr. Mario worth adding, is he generally popular?

 

[Deleted member]

Wouldn't matter either way. Ice Climber was never a popular game, even when the Climbers were added in Melee. If the Climbers were to go, no one would really care.
By that regard, popularity should not be an issue for Doc.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Wouldn't matter either way. Ice Climber was never a popular game, even when the Climbers were added in Melee. If the Climbers were to go, no one would really care.
By that regard, popularity should not be an issue for Doc.

I thought Ice Climbers were added because they needed a retro character?

 

[FalKoopa]

I thought Ice Climbers were added because they needed a retro character?

Yeah, and that Sakurai found them unique as a duo character and perhaps found it easier to think up their moveset.

 

[Deleted member]

I thought Ice Climbers were added because they needed a retro character?

Need =/= Want
Sakurai wanted to have a character from the NES days. Ice Climbers were chosen because they could introduce a two-as-one gimmick.

 

[Ove]

You've always had a problem with reading comprehension

How rude, and I disagree. I understood your conversation, you just didn't agree with the conclusion I made based on your statements. There is always an underlying thought behind every sentence, and based on what you said, I saw exactly what you thought.

I never said that having those three moves doesn't make him a clone. I said that having those moves while Mario doesn't is already a difference between the two, meaning other differences aren't as farfetched as Diddy thinks they are.

That is correct, you never explicitly said that they weren't clones if Dr. Mario had those three moves. However, you made it sound like those three moves was enough for Dr. Mario not being a clone. That is of course not the case, and I think you know that already.

Bringing those three moves up in the first place is rather odd and not a preferable choice. Having three moves that a character already has had isn't that.... Unique, don't you agree? Sakurai could instead make a completely new moveset to Doc. Keeping those three moves is not the right way of thinking.

 

[volbound1700]

Stick Dr. Mario in and give him a background story. He is the third Mario Brother . I always thought that would be a good tie-in.

 

[ChronoBound]

Got to admire Golden's dedication to Dr. Mario. Like it or not, Dr. Mario is a character that is plausible for Smash 4. Nearly everyone was considering him very likely to be cut prior to Brawl's release, yet Sakurai was still considering having Dr. Mario as the fifth Mario character over anyone else from that series.

I still think we will get Toad, Paper Mario, or Bowser Jr. if we get a Mario newcomer in Smash 4 though. However, I think Doc being a costume with slightly different stats (such as throwing megavitamins instead of fireballs) or being a DLC character (if DLC characters even happen) are probable situations for Dr. Mario.

I think the "slot sharing" idea would be the best one to do. Getting Dr. Mario back in would require very little effort if they went that route.

 

[volbound1700]

If I was on the development team, I would save the Melee cut characters and release all 5 of them with several stages and items in a Melee Expansion pack for $10-15 to Download. Nintendo could make more money and they can save the design time until after the release of Smash 4. I would love for Smash 4 to have expansion packs.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Then I would hate you for making me buy Mewtwo. :/ And even hate you more that with buying Mewtwo, I get bull**** characters as Dr.Mario, Young Link and Pichu.

Ice Climbers have better reason to be in Smash than Dr.Mario. Hence why Ice Climbers are in Brawl, and not Dr.Mario.

 

[Ove]

Hang on a sec, what did you just call YL, Doc and Pichu?!

They all are great characters. Well, technically they're just clones, but they contributed to alternative playstyles.

Better than nothing...